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Doc Roc
2011-03-20, 10:09 PM
Gentlefolk, I'm thinking of bringing the Test of Spite back. I'd be running it for multiple systems this time, likely Savage Worlds, d20r, and Legend (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194319). How do we feel about this?

Jarian
2011-03-20, 10:11 PM
We feel that there should be more of a focus on general system knowledge and less on borderline exploits.

Otherwise, we feel very good about it.

Doc Roc
2011-03-20, 10:12 PM
We feel that there should be more of a focus on general system knowledge and less on borderline exploits.

Otherwise, we feel very good about it.

Hence the choice of systems. Any PvP in 3.x is going to boil down to borderline exploits. I would know, neh? :)

This does mean we'd need GMs for d20r. I've got a decent familiarity with it, but it's just enormous, and I don't have the time, or recently, the inclination to learn it to the detail that I'd need to run a ToS match.

Totally Guy
2011-03-21, 03:58 AM
What is the Test of Spite?

Doc Roc
2011-03-21, 04:12 AM
What is the Test of Spite?

A high-powered PvP arena with a regulatory committee in charge of ensuring a wide range of viable and exciting builds. It is our job to make fun where there was often none.

Kurald Galain
2011-03-21, 04:18 AM
How do we feel about this?
I feel it should be easier for spectators to locate particular famous battles.

Doc Roc
2011-03-21, 04:22 AM
I feel it should be easier for spectators to locate particular famous battles.

Oh God. I'll do what I can. Maybe some sort of vote-up for naming them?

Radar
2011-03-21, 06:46 AM
Gentlefolk, I'm thinking of bringing the Test of Spite back. I'd be running it for multiple systems this time, likely Savage Worlds, d20r, and Legend. How do we feel about this?
I'd describe my feelings as WAAAGH!. :thog:

At any rate, I might really consider it. I never had enough reasources or experiance to compete in D&D 3.5 deathmatches, but Legend and d20r are available and fairly new, so I might have a chance.

Adumbration
2011-03-21, 06:48 AM
Would the 3.5e be still available as an alternative? I'm not familiar with those other systems myself.

Claudius Maximus
2011-03-21, 08:54 AM
Oh Doc, you've made me the happiest girl in town.

I'm going to referee this SO HARD

Pentachoron
2011-03-21, 10:35 AM
I probably wouldn't compete, I just don't have the knowledge necessary of all those systems to really put something great together. I will, however, eagerly be watching the whole thing.

subject42
2011-03-21, 11:10 AM
I'd like to second Kurald Galain's suggestion. I'd like to eventually work up to the point where I could submit a non-embarrassing entry, but it's kind of hard to work through the old ToS's material.

Tyndmyr
2011-03-21, 11:26 AM
I'd love to compete in a D10 7th Sea match, if that ever hits one of the accepted systems.

Cieyrin
2011-03-21, 12:03 PM
Humm, I failed to get a match off when the original was around, so this time, I think I may make my mark in Legend.

Claudius Maximus
2011-03-21, 12:30 PM
I agree we should have a Hall of Fame.

Is there going to be a dungeon portion?

Amphetryon
2011-03-21, 12:30 PM
And there was much rejoicing!

Doc Roc
2011-03-21, 12:31 PM
Would the 3.5e be still available as an alternative? I'm not familiar with those other systems myself.

For some matches, yes, we can. The issue is that we lack the powerful infrastructure we had previously. We will soon have an IRC, though, to replace the failing meebochat.



I agree we should have a Hall of Fame.

Is there going to be a dungeon portion?

Probably in the form of A Very Long Trip or not at all. The dungeon was a logistical nightmare.

peacenlove
2011-03-21, 12:34 PM
I probably wouldn't compete, I just don't have the knowledge necessary of all those systems to really put something great together. I will, however, eagerly be watching the whole thing.

This. The Test of Spite ban list is a widely respected aspect in my table and the matches were critical to improving my D&D knowledge.
I would like to see it expanded for d20r or Pathfinder at the very least.

ex cathedra
2011-03-21, 01:47 PM
:smallamused: Finally.

The Test of Spite and I have been parted for far too long.

Doc Roc
2011-03-21, 01:57 PM
:smallamused: Finally.

The Test of Spite and I have been parted for far too long.

I know the feeling. Like the desert misses the rain, or the nazgul miss the ring.

Nohwl
2011-03-21, 02:16 PM
the only system i'm really familiar with is 3.5. are any of the other systems free?

Doc Roc
2011-03-21, 02:28 PM
the only system i'm really familiar with is 3.5. are any of the other systems free?

Legend is free during the beta, which will likely run until mid-July. d20r is free until completion, which has been delayed indefinitely. SW is 10 bucks for the core book, which is all we'll be using initially.

Tyndmyr
2011-03-21, 03:06 PM
the only system i'm really familiar with is 3.5. are any of the other systems free?

7th Sea, if it is selected, has a free rules compendium. It isn't the entire system, much like the srd isn't all of D&D, but it's the basics.

And yeah, I'm kinda hoping there'll be others that want 7th Sea dueling.

Doc Roc
2011-03-21, 03:30 PM
7th Sea, if it is selected, has a free rules compendium. It isn't the entire system, much like the srd isn't all of D&D, but it's the basics.

And yeah, I'm kinda hoping there'll be others that want 7th Sea dueling.

It may end up replacing d20r. Fax just told me it isn't complete enough to run out of the box.

SurlySeraph
2011-03-21, 03:48 PM
I agree that there should be more focus on the duels than the dungeon. They were kinda the point, anyway.

Given that ToS is expanding beyond 3.X, do you think it should stay only with d20-based systems, or (when there's an interested ref and interested players) expand way outward and have occasional op-fu contests with less familiar stuff?

Tyndmyr
2011-03-21, 04:15 PM
It may end up replacing d20r. Fax just told me it isn't complete enough to run out of the box.

It should be...surprisingly easy to run once you build the arenas. It's got a lot less sourcebooks to trawl than D&D, and huge chunks of those books are filled with fluff.

Doc Roc
2011-03-21, 04:48 PM
I agree that there should be more focus on the duels than the dungeon. They were kinda the point, anyway.

Given that ToS is expanding beyond 3.X, do you think it should stay only with d20-based systems, or (when there's an interested ref and interested players) expand way outward and have occasional op-fu contests with less familiar stuff?

My impulse is to keep it to three systems at least until we have some deep infrastructure again. You have to remember that there were 8-10 people running the ToS at any given time, and a few more behind the scenes. Right now, I'm leaning towards Seven Seas because I support pirates, Savage Worlds because no one's ever run a PvP arena in it to my knowledge, and Legend. Because it's Legend.

9mm
2011-03-21, 05:12 PM
I agree we should have a Hall of Fame.


Hall of Fame for both players and builds, Cause Olo was just good at killing himself.

imperialspectre
2011-03-21, 06:54 PM
I'm looking forward to bad CGI work for ToS Reloaded. Jake had better not disappoint me.

Doc Roc
2011-03-21, 07:05 PM
I'm looking forward to bad CGI work for ToS Reloaded. Jake had better not disappoint me.

I've already downloaded sketch-up, I'll just rig some totally non-humanoid models with humanoid bones, and go from there. Terror Of The Teapot?

Zaq
2011-03-21, 07:32 PM
Did any of the dungeons (other than The Monkening) ever actually take off? I was always interested in seeing how these crazy PvP builds would fare once they were forced to band together and face a truly evil dungeon, but I don't recall ever seeing any—but then, I didn't look very hard.

Doc Roc
2011-03-21, 07:35 PM
Did any of the dungeons (other than The Monkening) ever actually take off? I was always interested in seeing how these crazy PvP builds would fare once they were forced to band together and face a truly evil dungeon, but I don't recall ever seeing any—but then, I didn't look very hard.

A couple got moderately far, but no, not really. Logistics were prohibitive, and I'm a terrible PbP gm.

subject42
2011-03-21, 08:42 PM
Would you consider Pathfinder as a d20r alternative? It's fairly close to 3.5, but is different enough that you likely wouldn't just see rehashes of the 3.5 dreadnought builds.

ex cathedra
2011-03-21, 10:48 PM
Would you consider Pathfinder as a d20r alternative? It's fairly close to 3.5, but is different enough that you likely wouldn't just see rehashes of the 3.5 dreadnought builds.

:smallannoyed: I hope that this won't be the case. It's... just underwhelming, comparatively speaking. If we ran a pathfinder arena, we may as well just reopen the 3.x arena, which would be... a strictly better idea.

At least, that's my opinion on the matter.

Tyndmyr
2011-03-21, 10:53 PM
A couple got moderately far, but no, not really. Logistics were prohibitive, and I'm a terrible PbP gm.

So am I. It's remarkably different than real life, and GMing for multiple groups in multiple dungeons(even if they're clones) is no joke.

PvP at least tends to be bursty. You have a match, bam, it's over in a reasonable length of time. Generally short enough that you don't lose half the people to inactivity. This is one of the reasons my current mad scheme is pvp based.

Doc Roc
2011-03-21, 11:40 PM
:smallannoyed: I hope that this won't be the case. It's... just underwhelming, comparatively speaking. If we ran a pathfinder arena, we may as well just reopen the 3.x arena, which would be... a strictly better idea.

At least, that's my opinion on the matter.

I am generally in concurrence. There's something specific and special about the systems that were picked. They all generate characters who are relatively easy to check for legality. PF does this no better than 3.x, and in some ways is a little clunkier. I would rather re-open 3.x.x, but that horse is... quite dead. I might be willing to allow some limited subset, but that's not really the spirit of the Test.

The core issue is how to increase accessibility without making simultaneously people feel unwelcome, and that's super important to me.

Lord_Gareth
2011-03-22, 02:48 AM
I want to see Test of Spite for Changeling: the Lost.

....

What?

Aharon
2011-03-22, 04:32 AM
I propose ditching or fundamentally changing the sheet checking process. It caused a very large backlog - there were 36 unchecked sheets lying around in the end, despite the relatively large number of checkers (7 or 8, IIRC).

So either
a) limit the approval process to cases where both contestants want it
b) require better documentation of what the builders actually did. It's sometimes really hard to see what a character does, and even if it isn't, it still takes some time.

I haven't read all of the Legend rules yet, has sheet checking become easier because of them?

Amphetryon
2011-03-22, 08:17 AM
Ditching the sheet-checking strikes me as a potentially really dangerous idea. I know that I never set out to make an illegal character, but often had small errors crop up in the creation process, along with some not-so-small ones. The only thing more frustrating to me than being one-shotted before getting an action would be getting one-shotted by a character that can't actually do what its creator thought due to rules confusion or an error during creation.

Claudius Maximus
2011-03-22, 11:44 AM
I propose ditching or fundamentally changing the sheet checking process. It caused a very large backlog - there were 36 unchecked sheets lying around in the end, despite the relatively large number of checkers (7 or 8, IIRC).

I think the problem was more that I was the only one doing it to any significant extent.

Characters checked by me: 45
Average of other sheet checkers: 4

So all we needed was one other person working diligently, and there would not have been a backlog at all.

I do apologize that I didn't get to all of the sheets but you can only peruse so many 13th level optimized character sheets before your brain simply begins to fall apart.

Edit: Legend seems to be much more straightforward in the two most complicated areas of character sheet checking: wealth and skills. I predict it will go much smoother this time.

Seriously, sheet checking time in the old ToS probably would have been cut in half if people just knew how the 3.x skill system worked. :smallsigh: The Legend skill system looks like sheet checking heaven by comparison.

Doc Roc
2011-03-22, 12:00 PM
It is. I listened, CM, and then we built something that hurts less and works better.

subject42
2011-03-22, 12:26 PM
I am generally in concurrence. There's something specific and special about the systems that were picked. They all generate characters who are relatively easy to check for legality. PF does this no better than 3.x, and in some ways is a little clunkier.

Sounds like a totally legit reason. I'll start brushing up on Legend, then.

If you have the time and inclination, would you mind explaining how PF is clunkier? I'm interested in how this all meshes together.

CarpeGuitarrem
2011-03-22, 12:36 PM
I have the 7th Sea rulebook, and I would be interested in trying that out, because I want to see how the rules system pans out. (It's okay to be a less-skilled character builder, right?)

Kallisti
2011-03-22, 12:38 PM
I want to see Test of Spite for Changeling: the Lost.

....

What?

Hell yes!

This is a really good idea. Can we get this idea done? That's be fantastic, because it's a really good idea.

Tyndmyr
2011-03-22, 12:39 PM
I have the 7th Sea rulebook, and I would be interested in trying that out, because I want to see how the rules system pans out. (It's okay to be a less-skilled character builder, right?)

I promise, I'm working on a 7th Sea optimization guide. I'll publish it to the internets when it's done. I know this system/setting rather well, and consider it one of the better ones I've ever played. Of course, like any other game, it has it's quirks.

Tiki Snakes
2011-03-22, 12:52 PM
Hell yes!

This is a really good idea. Can we get this idea done? That's be fantastic, because it's a really good idea.

I'd love to see how such a mad idea would turn out, at the very least.

Kallisti
2011-03-22, 12:56 PM
I'd love to see how such a mad idea would turn out, at the very least.

It'd be fantastic!

Doc Roc
2011-03-22, 01:03 PM
It'd be fantastic!

It'd mean I have to learn yet another white wolf system. I am not so sure I am down with this, but I'll take a look.


Sounds like a totally legit reason. I'll start brushing up on Legend, then.

If you have the time and inclination, would you mind explaining how PF is clunkier? I'm interested in how this all meshes together.

Basically, PF streamlines skills only a little, contains all the same concerns re: PrC legality, has more book-keeping for a lot of spells, raises some pretty deep RAWvRAIvRAMS questions with a lot of poor wording, and has all the same issues with Wealth Optimization.

This means that sheet checking is like getting kicked in the throat repeatedly.

Cieyrin
2011-03-22, 01:43 PM
(It's okay to be a less-skilled character builder, right?)

Many ToSers started out as not very good optimizers and have got much better in what is effective and what is not. Look at Olo and CM, they've learned a lot from their prior experiences with the ToS on both sides of the screen (well, CM has, anyways). ToS has also always accepted any and all, irregardless of perceived experience or familiarity with the system. Especially since this newest incarnation of the ToS involves some fledgling systems, this is a perfect time to get in on the ground floor.

CarpeGuitarrem
2011-03-22, 03:54 PM
Many ToSers started out as not very good optimizers and have got much better in what is effective and what is not. Look at Olo and CM, they've learned a lot from their prior experiences with the ToS on both sides of the screen (well, CM has, anyways). ToS has also always accepted any and all, irregardless of perceived experience or familiarity with the system. Especially since this newest incarnation of the ToS involves some fledgling systems, this is a perfect time to get in on the ground floor.
Sweet. I think that exploring game mechanics is just really cool, period, so learning to work the system is actually an interesting point for me. This sounds like it would be a great way to do that.

SurlySeraph
2011-03-22, 04:40 PM
I've certainly learned a lot from reading ToS, and a slight bit ("Lifesight is awesome, never forget that Superior Invisibility exists, never forget you have a Contingency, and don't neglect your CL") from the duel I had.


I propose ditching or fundamentally changing the sheet checking process. It caused a very large backlog - there were 36 unchecked sheets lying around in the end, despite the relatively large number of checkers (7 or 8, IIRC).

I think that often just a "basic" check - "Hey ref, here are my class levels and feats" - would suffice, if we still have 3.X duels, with legality questions ("Can you stack those?") and such mostly addressed in the main thread.


Hell yes!

This is a really good idea. Can we get this idea done? That's be fantastic, because it's a really good idea.

I... might be up for reffing WoD fights, depending on how my schedule for the rest of the semester works out. They'd certainly be fun if we have people interested in them. Inter-splat fights wouldn't be likely to work so well (well, maybe if we kept high-xp Geist and Mage out, or introduced some fixes. And probably kept Possessed out, because I just borrowed a copy of Inferno, and they have some ludicrous scene-length abilities). Just Changeling seems pretty well internally balanced, and certainly interesting.

Doc Roc
2011-03-22, 07:33 PM
I've certainly learned a lot from reading ToS, and a slight bit ("Lifesight is awesome, never forget that Superior Invisibility exists, never forget you have a Contingency, and don't neglect your CL") from the duel I had.



I think that often just a "basic" check - "Hey ref, here are my class levels and feats" - would suffice, if we still have 3.X duels, with legality questions ("Can you stack those?") and such mostly addressed in the main thread.



I... might be up for reffing WoD fights, depending on how my schedule for the rest of the semester works out. They'd certainly be fun if we have people interested in them. Inter-splat fights wouldn't be likely to work so well (well, maybe if we kept high-xp Geist and Mage out, or introduced some fixes. And probably kept Possessed out, because I just borrowed a copy of Inferno, and they have some ludicrous scene-length abilities). Just Changeling seems pretty well internally balanced, and certainly interesting.

If you're willing, I will offer tertiary support and resources.

CarpeGuitarrem
2011-03-23, 04:33 PM
I would love to watch a Changeling ToS. I've heard they can do some crazy stuff, and I want to see it firsthand.

Doc Roc
2011-03-23, 04:52 PM
I would love to watch a Changeling ToS. I've heard they can do some crazy stuff, and I want to see it firsthand.

Same here, I just desperately don't want to run it! :)

Mushroom Ninja
2011-04-02, 04:00 PM
This definitely needs to happen. Although I only fought in a few matches in the original, I've loved reading through the ridiculous shenanigans and counter-shenanigans employed in the battles.

Doc Roc
2011-04-02, 11:21 PM
This definitely needs to happen. Although I only fought in a few matches in the original, I've loved reading through the ridiculous shenanigans and counter-shenanigans employed in the battles.

It will happen. We are ramping towards it. Let's see, what levels in Legend would we like to fight at?

Tyndmyr
2011-04-03, 07:15 AM
Ill happily do sheet checking for 7th sea. I've got all the books, a master skill crosslist 8 created, and excellent system knowledge.

Doc Roc
2011-04-03, 07:17 AM
I just need to get the ToS irc up then, and with it, the legend IRC.

Spartacus
2011-04-03, 03:15 PM
I think I'll jump in, in support of Legend, once I give it a few more reads.

EDIT: Hey, Legend doesn't take 14 years to load anymore! Yay, new modem!

Claudius Maximus
2011-04-03, 03:45 PM
As for levels in Legend, unless we're going with multiple options I'd suggest a lower-middle level (~6-13). These seem to be favored for playing 3.5 and thus we could take a look at how the game feels in comparison.

Otherwise I'd suggest a higher level because I have the greatest fears about balance for the high levels, when features start to pile up, and I'd like to see it tested and possibly patched.

Spartacus
2011-04-03, 05:57 PM
I just need to get the ToS irc up then, and with it, the legend IRC.

Contact me when you get those up. You know how to find me. :smallsmile:

imperialspectre
2011-04-03, 08:52 PM
I tend to think that Legend ToS should have several different levels; I would probably suggest 8, 13, and 18, since all of them are fairly significant levels mechanically for one reason or another. It might slightly slow the rate of finding new matchups for a successful character build, but on the other hand it would provide us with better playtest data and give people a chance to pick the level of shenanigans they want to deal with.

IthilanorStPete
2011-04-03, 09:07 PM
What level of optimization are you looking for for the Legend ToS? Would some fairly basic, only semi-optimized, mostly out-of-the-box builds be fine just to get some playtesting?

Doc Roc
2011-04-03, 11:14 PM
We will, as always, find a way to serve all comers.

mrcarter11
2011-04-04, 10:45 AM
Well I generally have a lot going on, but I'd be up for helping to run ToS. I've heard of it from other posters, I've never seen any of the battles though. Roc mentioned how it was several people running it, so I'd be happy to help run it now... I'm already on irc most days, I use mirc.. I'm also almost always on aim.

Fax Celestis
2011-04-04, 11:41 AM
It may end up replacing d20r. Fax just told me it isn't complete enough to run out of the box.

This is because right now running a d20r game amounts to running a 3.5 game with homebrewed base classes. I need to finish skills and spells, at the least, but its a long and arduous process, and I'm working largely by myself.

Glimbur
2011-04-04, 12:52 PM
If you like White Wolf games, I would suggest Street Fighter were it not for threeish reasons

1) It is difficult at best to find.
2) The combat system is fun and exciting... but also completely awful for PbP. The lowest speed action goes first... but a higher speed action can interrupt and it's great in person but unfeasible for PbP.
3) I'm not sure what purpose it would serve. Ice Blast is broken, mobility is really good, and specialization is rewarded.

I'd be up for playing, as would many people, but I don't think I could commit to being a ref. Sheet checking... maybe.

dextercorvia
2011-04-07, 12:48 PM
This is what I needed to give Legend a real shot. I'm reading the beta now.

Toofey
2011-04-07, 02:54 PM
I would have to learn 3.5 for this wouldn't I?

Claudius Maximus
2011-04-07, 03:00 PM
I'm not sure we're even running 3.5 in this version of the ToS, so probably not.

Anyway we intend to run several non-D20 systems as well as Legend and you might end up knowing one of them already. If not, you can check them out. Maybe you'll like them.

Doc Roc
2011-04-08, 01:59 AM
Folks, we'll be using the Legend IRC as live chat. We found that a live chat was basically indispensable for running difficult combats quickly, and we'd like to maintain that for ToS:R as well. I think Legend is finally at a point where people can start reading it over, with the reasonable expectation that this will be relatively close to the final rule-set.


In short.

Start your engines, folks, it's gonna be a hell of a race.

Jarian
2011-04-08, 02:26 AM
Ooh! Obligatory filler text as simple exclamations of expectation are considered insufficient for the forum.

CarpeGuitarrem
2011-04-10, 01:37 PM
So...I'm aiming to stay posted with the ToS...any other developments, or is it one game at a time? (I'm listening for 7th Sea stuff)

Doc Roc
2011-04-11, 12:35 PM
So...I'm aiming to stay posted with the ToS...any other developments, or is it one game at a time? (I'm listening for 7th Sea stuff)

It will be all three. I'll be getting in touch with people soon, looking for interested parties for GMing and sheet checking. I can't let C_M shoulder the load like he did last time.

Kallisti
2011-04-11, 03:31 PM
It will be all three. I'll be getting in touch with people soon, looking for interested parties for GMing and sheet checking. I can't let C_M shoulder the load like he did last time.

I may or may not have time to help with Changeling sheet-checking and STing. Be worth it to see a Changeling ToS, but my schedule is a little up-in-the-air. I'm afraid I don't really have the system knowledge to sheet-check anything but D&D 3.5, M&M 2e, and Changeling, and it sounds like neither D&D nor M&M are on the table.

imperialspectre
2011-04-11, 11:56 PM
I'm honestly not sure how much more can be wrung out of the 3.5 system, mechanically speaking. It really seemed that most of the high-end builds were advanced enough toward the end that matches came down to tactics or a couple blown rolls. Even the builds that were a step down the ladder, like most of mine, had most of their bases covered and usually ended due to a key chargen mistake or one side's resources getting slowly exhausted.

I don't have any experience at all with M&M, so I can't speak to its chances in ToS.

Doc Roc
2011-04-12, 02:06 AM
I'm honestly not sure how much more can be wrung out of the 3.5 system, mechanically speaking. It really seemed that most of the high-end builds were advanced enough toward the end that matches came down to tactics or a couple blown rolls. Even the builds that were a step down the ladder, like most of mine, had most of their bases covered and usually ended due to a key chargen mistake or one side's resources getting slowly exhausted.

I don't have any experience at all with M&M, so I can't speak to its chances in ToS.

There were three or four tier zero builds that we hadn't seen, which I hadn't banned the components for. I'd say that there were maybe six or so T1s, and probably 7 T2s we hadn't see. Thing is, those T2s are basically just cut down versions of the T1s. One thing we saw very little of was certain flavors of summoning, in part because it's just truly a lot of hassle.

Out of the very-large set of things we covered, the remaining build real estate was pretty tiny.

M&M would require a large initial ban list, to render explicit some of the expectations of the designers. These expectations consist of

A:"OH Jesus, Jim, did you actually write this?!
J:"Sure did, and if you cut it, I'll shiv your sister then brunce her."
A:"Whu...wha...what?"
J:"Unce Unce, but with sharp edges."
A:"I... we'll just leave a.... few notes in the text."

Dr.Orpheus
2011-11-28, 11:42 AM
M&M is broken yet you can forbid spending points on time travel, becoming immune to all types of damage, and becoming immune to things that require saves and limit points that can be spent on minions, gear, and powered devises.

I am willing to partake in 3.5, pathfinder, and after a bit of practice legend.

TroubleBrewing
2011-11-29, 11:21 PM
I find it hilarious that a guy whose namesake is the world's greatest necromancer just committed thread necromancy.

Seriously, I can't stop laughing.