radical change celric to monk (with alot of help from loot)

[broli]

Hi!!!

i am currently playing a cleric.
this cleric has been a nanybot so far. I was simply looking at the ceiling until someone said "ouch,i feel bad".
this has turned out to be pretty boring

its a level 10 human cleric, with this particular aspects.

* OLD I made the character 45 years old, and the in game time is 5 years already (next tier of bonus/penalties is at 53 i think)
* Maximized heals all my heals are maximized for free (look at the reason why later in this post)

Stats
STR = 11
DEX = 15
CON = 15
INT = 12
WIS = 19
CHA = 16

Thanks to a special training completed before and previous leveling, i have this skills (only the most important ones)
SPOT = 20
Concentration = 16
Bluff = 16
Tumble = 5 (2 dex + 12 ranks +5 training -14 armor check penalty)
Heal skill = 17
UMD = 15

My master gave us enough XP to level to 12 (its a "special training", so he is allowing 2 levels in one session,because it fits the story)

he is also giving us the same amount of money in items like a level 20 should have (760k i think)

this has a reason. this campaign has been a win/fail carousel orchestrated by the DM.
he lets us win, to shortly after that take the win away.
i have died and been resurrected 2 times, other players as much as 5
At this point, we loose XP, we loose ALL possessions, items, ect.

What i was thinking to fix some of this problems?
take 2 levels of monk.
Buy a +5 wisdom tome,
Buy a +6 wisdom tiara
Buy a +5 dexterity tome
buy a +6 dexterity gloves
Buy a +5 constitution tome
buy a +6 constitution ring (does it fit the slot?)
Buy a +3 strength tome
buy a +4 strength item (dont know which slot to use)
Buy a +8 armor bracers
Buy a +5 natural armor trinket
Monk belt
Take weapons finesse as level 12 feat

Pros:
High AC
evasion
Better saves
no more -14 for armor check penalty (full plate + tower shield)
Increased land speed
Some DPS
I will still be able to cast level 9 spells
the use of tomes denies the master the ability to take it all
Opens up the PrC Sacred fist (might have to beg for some skills reallocation)

Cons:
loose 2 levels of cleric
still rely on items

other considerations
i have stated several times, that if i where to die again, i want a reincarnation, since the spell specifically says it gives me a new body, i will shred the physical penalties, still retaining my mental stats

Now the questions:
* Can i take 2 levels of monk? i heard something about class variations that allow this...
* The AC trade off is worth it?
* Any other ideas or suggestions on items?
* Any other ideas or suggestions on the build itself?


PD: this DM has been talking about a feat that allowed you to maximize all healing (abjuration, cure) spells for free.
he went on and on and on about it while we where playing another campaign.
when his time as master came, and upon learning i wanted to play a cleric, he told me to take the feat.
i made it to level 2 o 3, before we tried to find the feat, and ofcourse, we where wrong.
its "domain of night and day", from eberron (whe are playing grayhawk), and only works in certain places that are close to the Mabar plane.

after some deliberation, the master allowed me to continue using it, since he found really fun to make us fight against overpowered enemies without the fear of Total party kills.

[Human Paragon 3]

There's a full BAB prestige class called Sacred Fist that advances monk and cleric. It gets nearly full casting, full bab, monk abilities, and some neat extras. Check it out! I think it's complete divine, but it might be some other book.

[MammonAzrael]

I highly recommend reading at least the first several posts of the 3.5 Cleric Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0). The cleric is one of the strongest, most versatile classes in the entire game, and healing is actually one of it's weakest roles.

I would clear the +5 tomes with your DM. If he is in the habit of having you all gain and lose experience and equipment in such a roller coaster fashion then it is not out of possibility that he will rule that you lose the inherent bonuses granted from the tomes.

In terms of power and capability, a 2 level dip into monk is terrible. I see no reason why you would be able to take the levels, providing you are of a lawful alignment. But it is highly inadvisable from an optimization standpoint.

Other than that, the handbook I linked to should give you a solid grasp of excellent spells, items, and multi-classing options you have available to you.

[Elric VIII]

There's also a feat called Mastery of Day and Night that maximizes all cure/inflict spells all the time. Just putting that out there before I make my next point.


Clerics make great Monks without all those useless Monk levels. Although, if you want a nice save boost and/or you are short on feats, a 1 level dip is fine (although I prefer a Monk's Belt, myself).


You can take the Improved Unarmed Strike feat and Superior Unarmed Strike and only be 1 die size behind a full-progression Monk.


IUS allows you to discharge touch spells with a free unarmed strike, so maximized inflict spells on this are great. Couple this with Snap Kick to get an extra attack when you cast your spell, or another chance to discharge it if the first one misses.


Clerics also have a nice spell called Blood Wind that allows them to use unarmed strikes/natural weapons at a range.


My personal favorite Cleric-Monk build is Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 5/Sacred Fist 10. This grants +19 BAB and 18th level casting. The special ability of the OC to trade in domain powers for Fighter feats helps to meet the Sacred Fist requirements, with Stunning Fist taken at 9th level, just in time to begin taking Sacred Fist, and either taking the 5th OC level at 10 or 20.


That said, my point is that you really don't need Monk levels. Sacred Fist is good, but Ordained Champion is great since it eventually allows you to use Wis in place of Str for 10 rounds/Turn Undead attempt used.


I recommend taking levels in OC and trading a domain power for IUS, SUS, and Snap Kick (this is like a better version of Flurry of Blows) and buying a Monk's Belt with your immense wealth.


If you don't want to do that, a 1 level dip into Monk is fine, but I really don't recommend 2 levels. Increase your effective Monk level with a Monks belt (+5) and Superior Unarmed Strike (+4) and Sacred Fist (+1/level*10 levels) and keep your casting at 19/20.

[broli]

I highly recommend reading at least the first several posts of the 3.5 Cleric Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0). The cleric is one of the strongest, most versatile classes in the entire game, and healing is actually one of it's weakest roles.
i have done, and its the post that gave me the idea of a monk dip


I would clear the +5 tomes with your DM. If he is in the habit of having you all gain and lose experience and equipment.... he will rule that you lose the inherent bonuses granted from the tomes.....
done. im on the clear there


In terms of power and capability, a 2 level dip into monk is terrible. I see no reason why you would be able to take the levels, providing you are of a lawful alignment. But it is highly inadvisable from an optimization standpoint.
so, no levels of monk? the post you linked says one or 2 are great for a sacred fist progresion afterwards



There's also a feat called Mastery of Day and Night that maximizes all cure/inflict spells all the time. Just putting that out there before I make my next point.
thats the feat my DM let me take. i already have that



Clerics make great Monks without all those useless Monk levels. Although, if you want a nice save boost and/or you are short on feats, a 1 level dip is fine (although I prefer a Monk's Belt, myself).
the monk belt is on my shoping list (see below)



You can take the Improved Unarmed Strike feat and Superior Unarmed Strike and only be 1 die size behind a full-progression Monk.
you mean without taking monk levels?



IUS allows you to discharge touch spells with a free unarmed strike, so maximized inflict spells on this are great. Couple this with Snap Kick to get an extra attack when you cast your spell, or another chance to discharge it if the first one misses.
whats IUS? i asume this are feats you are talking about. can you tell me the name of the book (i might have read it already, but my books are in spanish)



Clerics also have a nice spell called Blood Wind that allows them to use unarmed strikes/natural weapons at a range.
nice idea. was thinking also on the ones that give sacred bonus to strength


My personal favorite Cleric-Monk build is Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 5/Sacred Fist 10. This grants +19 BAB and 18th level casting. The special ability of the OC to trade in domain powers for Fighter feats helps to meet the Sacred Fist requirements, with Stunning Fist taken at 9th level, just in time to begin taking Sacred Fist, and either taking the 5th OC level at 10 or 20.
nice build, but as i said, im changing directions on a level 10 character, so that is out of the question.



That said, my point is that you really don't need Monk levels. Sacred Fist is good, but Ordained Champion is great since it eventually allows you to use Wis in place of Str for 10 rounds/Turn Undead attempt used.

turn undead uses are already taken because of the Divine ward feat i took, and because is a undead heavy campaing


I recommend taking levels in OC and trading a domain power for IUS, SUS, and Snap Kick (this is like a better version of Flurry of Blows) and buying a Monk's Belt with your immense wealth.

Ordain champion seems like a good idea. im going to google it.
and the monk belt is in the buy list


If you don't want to do that, a 1 level dip into Monk is fine, but I really don't recommend 2 levels. Increase your effective Monk level with a Monks belt (+5) and Superior Unarmed Strike (+4) and Sacred Fist (+1/level*10 levels) and keep your casting at 19/20.

the 2 level dip was because of evasion
but im going to read the OC you mention, it might be included in that progression

This is the buy list i was thinking

Strength tome +3 82500
constitution tome +3 82500
wisdom tome +5 137500
dex tome +5 137500
+6 wisdom headgear item 36000 (im a men, i dont use tiaras, i use head gear)
+6 dex gloves 36000
cloack of resistance +5 25000
monk belt 13000
Protecion robe +5 luck bonus to saves 37500
bracers of armor +8 + strenght +4 88000
health trinket +6 and +2 to atack and damage when unarmed 72000

total spent 747500
remaining 12500 (to buy expensive spell componentes)


thanks for all the replies!

[jiriku]

IUS = Improved Unarmed Strike. Player's Handbook.
Also check Superior Unarmed Strike, from Tome of Battle, and Snap Kick, from the same book. All good feats for punching and kicking.

I think your plan is a good one for getting around the win/lose cycle you're facing. Also look at buying expensive consumable items that wouldn't normally be a good idea because of their cost, like scrolls of miracle or a ring of three wishes. At the very least, you can have a grand time until the money runs out.

I'd agree that you should minimize your investment in monk levels. Clerics can punch things just fine if you spend a feat or two, and high-level cleric spells are a lot of fun. Do you have Quicken Spell? You're approaching the level where that's a good choice. At level 12, a quickened divine favor gets you +4 to hit and damage and only costs you a swift action and a 5th-level spell slot.

[MammonAzrael]

I recommended against monk purely for optimization reasons. If your specific goal is to build a cleric that hits things with their fists and is purposefully monk-like, then yes, 1 to 2 levels should be just fine.

If you expect to be losing all of your gear, but know that you'll get to keep the bonuses from your mental tomes, then spend your cash of a +5 tome for each of Int, Wis, and Cha. Keep as much of that wealth as you can.

Instead of getting a amulet of mighty fists, which is both overpriced and limited, grab a Necklace of Natural Attacks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a). Much cheaper, and you can add weapon enhancements to it.

Consider a Bead of Karma for making your all-day buffs last longer and harder to dispel (and occasionally stronger, like with Greater Magic Weapon).

[broli]

thanks for the help guys.

after talking to the dm, and seeing where the capaing is goign i decide on 2 levels of monk and 8 of sacred fist.

i cant find the x to y post.
what was the wisdom to attack feat? i need the source too, to show my dm

the wis to damage might be nice too

[MammonAzrael]

Here is the thread. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871590/X_stat_to_Y_bonus)

Intuitive Strike gets your Wisdom mod to attack rolls but it is from the Book of Exalted Deeds, so whether your character will qualify is questionable.

There does not appear to be a feat for getting your Wis mod to damage.