[3.x] I'mma Be I'mma Be... a...stone...golem?!

[Doc Roc]

Some of you may remember my original Commodore Guff build. We're stepping all the way back to just a sandwich trick into a Stone Golem. We might be able to do stone golem, greater, but that'd be a mighty expensive powerstone.

We won't be using the Mjar trick I developed for Guff, so what do we do now that we have a L 20 wizard/Incantatrix inside a stone golem?

Sources are:
BoED, BoVD, LibMort, PGTF, FCS, CompArc/Adv/War, PHBII, DMGII, MMI, III , and V, Epic Handbook, DMG II, ToB, Races of Dragon, core

Obviously, I have my own terrible ideas on this, but I'm curious, and we haven't had a good high-op thread in a while.

[Lord_Gareth]

*Wants to be a Stone Golem*

[jiriku]

I've never heard of Commodore Guff, and I'm only generally familiar with the details of the sandwich trick. Link?

On topic, obviously, you're going to rock out. :smalltongue:

Ok, forgive the pun-pun. This is an intriguing proposition. Let me think on a real answer.

Edit 1: How about a stone/rock theme? Persistent undermaster provides some impressive battlefield control, especially if you drop a maximized extended time stop and spend ten rounds rearranging the battlefield to taste. Conveniently, the persistent undermaster will also allow you to full-heal your golem-self at will as a standard action via the transmute mud to rock SLA.

Hail of stone + arcane fusion is a nice damage booster, but you'll need to get AF on your list. Limited wish would work, but the XP cost is icky. Maybe squeeze in a few levels of dweomerkeeper? A domain wizard (spell) / dweomerkeeper could acquire arcane fusion via anyspell and then spontaneously convert prepared spells to arcane fusion by selecting it as a mantle spell.

Edit 2: No access to Spell Compendium, Complete Divine or Complete Mage. Sadness. Why the weirdly restricted list of books? You're only allowed the ones the DM owns?

Undermaster is referenced in the wizard spell list for PGtF, but not reproduced within the book. Is that enough for you to squeeze it in? Unlimited construction, demolition, self-healing, and battlefield control really would be quite useful.

Edit 3: Exalted fury would seem like a good offensive spell. 40'ft AoE, no save, just die (and yet it's not a death effect), and it doesn't affect you because as a stone golem, you're immune to magic. Widen spell would seem like an obvious move to crank it up to an 80' radius, and you'd want to splash a level of archmage and pick up Mastery of Shaping to exclude friendlies.

Hammer of righteousness is your go-to damage spell. It does 1d6/level UNCAPPED force damage (1d8/level vs. evil foes) out to medium range, never misses, and you can deal nonlethal damage with it if you wish. And because you're immune to ability damage, the 1d3 Strength sacrifice is nothing to you. While it does offer a Fortitude save for half, the logical thing to do is to pump your caster level, metamagic it into the stratosphere, and deal so much damage that on a successful save the target just dies anyway.

It's higher level, but the PGtF version of fleshshiver, while only a close-range spell, deals uncapped bludgeoning damage, an unavoidable one-round stun, and a possible nauseate. A repeat fleshshiver would automatically stun for two rounds and potentially deliver impressive damage and a nauseate. That's a nice multi-threat spell, even without stacking further metamagic on it.

Sword of conscience is a decent SoL spell for you -- you can easily meta it up to the point where the target is catatonic if he fails a save. It's a nice touch that the die size scales as the creature's HD increases.

I'm thinking that healing touch wouldn't harm you, since you're immune to magic. If you can twinipeatimax it into a relatively low-level slot (say, 6th-ish), you can heal 240 hp damage over two rounds with one casting, which is better than a cleric's heal spell. Likewise, blood of the martyr could potentially heal much, much more, and at range, for only one level higher. Even if you can't weasel out of the damage dealt by these spells by virtue of being immune to magic, if you could spring that persistent undermaster, full-healing yourself after using one of these spells would be a snap.

[Darrin]

PGtF but no MoF? Odd. That means no Spellblades, since stone to flesh is your biggest weakness. I guess greater spell immunity or Amulet of Inviolate Form (MIC not listed as available?) still works.

You'll want to be immune to non-magical/alchemical acid, since Stonebreaker Acid (20 GP, A&EG) deals 5d10 damage to stone golems (bypasses DR and hardness).

As far as what to do with it... the only thing that springs to my mind is Abrupt Jaunt + 4500 lbs of stupid. However, the garden-variety stone golem weighs only 2000 lbs, which seems particularly waifish, considering a large rhino clocks in at 6000 lbs. The greater stone golem is a much more respectable 32000 lbs.

[Lord_Gareth]

PGtF but no MoF? Odd. That means no Spellblades, since stone to flesh is your biggest weakness. I guess greater spell immunity or Amulet of Inviolate Form (MIC not listed as available?) still works.

You'll want to be immune to non-magical/alchemical acid, since Stonebreaker Acid (20 GP, A&EG) deals 5d10 damage to stone golems (bypasses DR and hardness).

As far as what to do with it... the only thing that springs to my mind is Abrupt Jaunt + 4500 lbs of stupid. However, the garden-variety stone golem weighs only 2000 lbs, which seems particularly waifish, considering a large rhino clocks in at 6000 lbs. The greater stone golem is a much more respectable 32000 lbs.

My opponents are, thankfully, ALSO restricted to those same books, so I'm cool with those vulnerabilties.

[Flickerdart]

Well, you're going to have to cover your two listed weaknesses, Transmute Rock to Mud and Stone to Flesh. Neither has dedicated counterspells, so you'll have to Contingency or Dispel or something around them. Wasn't there a ring somewhere that gave you immunity to a particular spell?

[Quirp]

One feat (ToM: Bind Vestige: Haagenti) would solve all your problems with those transformation spells, but sadly it isn´t on your list of allowed books.

I think you really have to go with the ring of counterspells, but two of those would take up all of your ring slots.

[WinWin]

Does it have to be a Stone Golem?

Haunt Shifting into a huge statue and pretending you are a golem might be significantly cheaper. Mind you...Having the golem act of it's own accord while you cast silent/stilled spells from inside it has definate advantages.

edit:

To explain my line of reasoning about Haunt Shift. Repeated castings of a Chained Magic Jar could allow for N1 versions of the caster to take up residence in the statue, assuming the instantaneous duration overrides the round/level of magic jar. Otherwise use persist to have 1d4 x caster level/hd versions of yourself in the statue any given day. Useful should your host be destroyed.

Pao'ing a homonculous familliar might be simpler than crafting a golem. Advancing its hit dice might net a few extra feats. It should retain it's familliar status and be eligable for Share Spellls abuse; crucial considering a construct form may be ineligable for certain types of buffage. It's intelligence score would also be raised regardless of what version of the errata you are using. Hit Points are going to be very, very low without some work there. MoI perhaps?

[Doc Roc]

Does it have to be a Stone Golem?

Haunt Shifting into a huge statue and pretending you are a golem might be significantly cheaper. Mind you...Having the golem act of it's own accord while you cast silent/stilled spells from inside it has definate advantages.

edit:

To explain my line of reasoning about Haunt Shift. Repeated castings of a Chained Magic Jar could allow for N1 versions of the caster to take up residence in the statue, assuming the instantaneous duration overrides the round/level of magic jar. Otherwise use persist to have 1d4 x caster level/hd versions of yourself in the statue any given day. Useful should your host be destroyed.

I definitely considered haunt shift, but I was asked to keep it minimally borked. Stone Golem barely skated by, honestly.

[Nohwl]

One feat (ToM: Bind Vestige: Haagenti) would solve all your problems with those transformation spells, but sadly it isn´t on your list of allowed books.

I think you really have to go with the ring of counterspells, but two of those would take up all of your ring slots.

you can take the extra rings feat.

[Lord_Gareth]

Okay, so how do we actually get to the point of becoming a stone golem? Can it be done mid-combat with any kind of speed?

[Doc Roc]

Okay, so how do we actually get to the point of becoming a stone golem? Can it be done mid-combat with any kind of speed?

No, it cannot. At least not easily, but it's a permanent change.

[Lord_Gareth]

No, it cannot. At least not easily, but it's a permanent change.

Still leaves the first half of the question.

[Cieyrin]

Still leaves the first half of the question.

Go here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137447). #26 is the Sandwich Trick in brief on how we get into our sweet ride.

[jiriku]

What are the optimization goals? Are you looking for general adventuring utility, effectiveness in arena combat, ability to generate NI values, entertaining strangeness, or what?

[Doc Roc]

What are the optimization goals? Are you looking for general adventuring utility, effectiveness in arena combat, ability to generate NI values, entertaining strangeness, or what?

Honestly, we're looking for IP-proofing, hence the golem. We're immune to anything that has a fort-save or SR, cutting off a huge subset of what we traditionally worry about with IP-proofing.

IP= iterative probability.

We're looking for a well-rounded, powerful character. Assume that we have mail-delivery covered. SpC isn't open, so we don't have to worry about orbs, but we also don't have them. A little perplexing, but we should be able to get by on inferior seeds.

[Zaq]

Get some kind of swim speed. If I were up against a stone golem, I'd strongly consider taking advantage of the fact that they're not terribly buoyant. This will help negate that, in the rare event that it comes up. Sure, you can teleport where you need to go, but do you want to have to?

That, and the image of a swimming stone golem is pretty sweet.

[Lord_Gareth]

Honestly, we're looking for IP-proofing, hence the golem. We're immune to anything that has a fort-save or SR, cutting off a huge subset of what we traditionally worry about with IP-proofing.

IP= iterative probability.

We're looking for a well-rounded, powerful character. Assume that we have mail-delivery covered. SpC isn't open, so we don't have to worry about orbs, but we also don't have them. A little perplexing, but we should be able to get by on inferior seeds.

CompArc = Orbs, friend.

[Cieyrin]

That, and the image of a swimming stone golem is pretty sweet.

Make it out of magically treated pumice and it'll be rather buoyant. :smallwink:

[Doc Roc]

CompArc = Orbs, friend.

Oh yeah, they got an SpC update. Well, darn, now we just need to be orb proof. I'll see about that, a bit harder since we don't have dispelling screen, but not impossible.

[Lord_Gareth]

Oh yeah, they got an SpC update. Well, darn, now we just need to be orb proof. I'll see about that, a bit harder since we don't have dispelling screen, but not impossible.

If you're speaking of ostiluke's dispelling screen I think that might be CompArc as well.

[Zaq]

Oh yeah, they got an SpC update. Well, darn, now we just need to be orb proof. I'll see about that, a bit harder since we don't have dispelling screen, but not impossible.

I'm assuming Wings of Cover (surely you can get it on the Wizard list with a little effort) and/or Celerity are simply too pedestrian for this endeavor?

[Doc Roc]

If you're speaking of ostiluke's dispelling screen I think that might be CompArc as well.

Oh my goodness. It should still have the language about blocking spell effects.



I'm assuming Wings of Cover (surely you can get it on the Wizard list with a little effort) and/or Celerity are simply too pedestrian for this endeavor?

Wizard listing it with the given sources is a little harder. We'd probably need to use a hack.

[Zaq]

Oh, is XPH "core," given that it's in the SRD? If so, you'll want to find a way around Burrowing Power. It can make a lot of defenses (Wings of Cover included, hack or no hack) less awesome. Not sure how a burrowing power interacts with a dispelling screen (does it get dispelled, or does it hop around it and fail to care?), but we might consider putting it on the watch list. Sure, Crystal Shard is no Orb of X, but it can still make you quite unhappy if it just jumps through your invincible barrier straight into your crumbly stone nonheart.

[Lord_Gareth]

I'm assuming Wings of Cover (surely you can get it on the Wizard list with a little effort) and/or Celerity are simply too pedestrian for this endeavor?

Celerity is easily available. Wings of Cover is in a banned book.

[Zaq]

Celerity is easily available. Wings of Cover is in a banned book.


Some of you may remember my original Commodore Guff build. We're stepping all the way back to just a sandwich trick into a Stone Golem. We might be able to do stone golem, greater, but that'd be a mighty expensive powerstone.

We won't be using the Mjar trick I developed for Guff, so what do we do now that we have a L 20 wizard/Incantatrix inside a stone golem?

Sources are:
BoED, BoVD, LibMort, PGTF, FCS, CompArc/Adv/War, PHBII, DMGII, MMI, III , and V, Epic Handbook, DMG II, ToB, Races of Dragon, core

Obviously, I have my own terrible ideas on this, but I'm curious, and we haven't had a good high-op thread in a while.

You sure about that?

[Lord_Gareth]

You sure about that?

I thought WoC was Dragon Magic?

[Zaq]

I thought WoC was Dragon Magic?

Nope. Races of the Dwagon, p. 119.

[jiriku]

Superior invisibility would help as well, and is more convenient to use. You can't be shot with an orb if your enemy can't locate you.

[Cieyrin]

Superior invisibility would help as well, and is more convenient to use. You can't be shot with an orb if your enemy can't locate you.

The CA version of that is so bad, though. Even the SpC version can still be beat by True Seeing. :smallyuk:

[Nohwl]

Oh my goodness. It should still have the language about blocking spell effects.



I'm assuming Wings of Cover (surely you can get it on the Wizard list with a little effort) and/or Celerity are simply too pedestrian for this endeavor?

Wizard listing it with the given sources is a little harder. We'd probably need to use a hack.

for wings of cover, can't you just take extra spell? it's in complete arcane.

[Cieyrin]

for wings of cover, can't you just take extra spell? it's in complete arcane.

While a viable solution, feat slots are a very limited resource. If he has one to spare, it could work, but I'm not seeing it as likely.

[Doc Roc]

While a viable solution, feat slots are a very limited resource. If he has one to spare, it could work, but I'm not seeing it as likely.

We might. I mean, I can scrounge feats out of thin air, if I have to. Thing is, that's a contested use of extra spell.

[Jarian]

We might. I mean, I can scrounge feats out of thin air, if I have to. Thing is, that's a contested use of extra spell.

Either the FAQ or the errata (I forget which) specifically says grabbing off-list spells is the intent of the feat.

[Doc Roc]

Either the FAQ or the errata (I forget which) specifically says grabbing off-list spells is the intent of the feat.

Cite plox? :)

[Cieyrin]

Either the FAQ or the errata (I forget which) specifically says grabbing off-list spells is the intent of the feat.

FAQ is where the contested part comes from, since they contend you can't take from off-list, which the RAW doesn't agree with.

[Jarian]

FAQ is where the contested part comes from, since they contend you can't take from off-list, which the RAW doesn't agree with.

That's what I get for going from memory.

So the issue is the printed rules say you can do it, and the Sage doesn't agree.

Since when do people care what the Sage said about anything?

[Veyr]

The printed rules don't say anything about spell lists at all; I'd agree that would seem to me to indicate that there is no such restriction (plus the feat would be utterly worthless were that the case), but it's not quite so easy as saying "the feat explicitly says you can!"

[Jarian]

I would just like to point out, then, that you are sandwich tricking yourself into a stone golem, then getting cold feet at the thought of applying the actual text of a feat.

Meh.

[Doc Roc]

I would just like to point out, then, that you are sandwich tricking yourself into a stone golem, then getting cold feet at the thought of applying the actual text of a feat.

Meh.

Oh, I was just worried it was part of an errata. I honestly couldn't remember. I think the feat'll work fine.

[Qwertystop]

As far as blocking the Stone Shape, Stone to Mud, and Flesh to Stone, you could just prepare them normally. You can use a spell to counter itself, right?

Also, I'm pretty sure the spells in Spell Compendium are just copied from other books, so you might be able to get some of them without Spell Compendium itself.

[Deth Muncher]

As far as blocking the Stone Shape, Stone to Mud, and Flesh to Stone, you could just prepare them normally. You can use a spell to counter itself, right?

Also, I'm pretty sure the spells in Spell Compendium are just copied from other books, so you might be able to get some of them without Spell Compendium itself.

You can, but you have to have that prepared as a counter, I believe. As in, readied action.

[Cieyrin]

You can, but you have to have that prepared as a counter, I believe. As in, readied action.

There are ways around that but that requires it's own bit of investment, really. Though really that could just be a matter of having the right spells in place. Eyes of the Oracle and Spellcaster's Bane could go a long way to making it feasible.

[Jarian]

Eyes of the Oracle

Isn't that in Dragon Magic?

[Cieyrin]

Isn't that in Dragon Magic?

You're absolutely right, nvm on those, I guess. There should be alternatives, though those are mostly feat based, like Reactive Counterspell. With my luck, they aren't on the book list, either. :smallannoyed:

[Doc Roc]

Um... Question. Since the mind we swap out isn't... technically... the Golem's... mind, since it... doesn't have one as such...



Can we command our body and take purely mental actions while it acts?

[jiriku]

I'd say ix-nay. The golem is operated by an elemental spirit. Whose command-obeying parts you have neatly lobotomized to make room for your superior cranial expertise.

I'd wonder where you got astral seed from when you aren't a psion, but I know better than to ask you how you manage to get things that are supposed to be exclusive to another class.

Superior invis doesn't have to be perfect. You're looking for surgical tools, so that you can carve out a flawless defense, scalpel-like. Those are nice if you can find them, but between the odd book restrictions reducing available spells and the golem's magic immunity making a broad category of buffs useless, we're probably going to have to take a defense-in-depth approach of using multiple flawed defenses in concert.

So superior invis provides long-duration targeting challenges. Project image (with a mirror image on it for good measure) would also provide tactical-level defense by spoofing opponents into attacking the wrong target. Simpler low-level illusions can accomplish the same thing with some cleverness. ODS can deny an attacks from an entire quadrant, while a couple of stacked contingency-type effects could protect you from stone to flesh. Since you've got PGtF available, you can use limited wish to replicate spell phylactery, which can stack up with contingency. Layering these defenses one upon another makes it progressively less and less likely that any attack will succeed.

[Doc Roc]

Another option is having multiple golems. They're relatively cheap, relatively durable, and easy to repair. And there's no way to distinguish us from them until we start firing spells. Which is probably too late.

We can probably do some graft-customization while we're PaO'd though. That's worth thinking about, I would say.

[jiriku]

Golem simulacra, perhaps?

[Doc Roc]

Golem simulacra, perhaps?

Probably going to go with the classic Solar or Planetar on that front.

[jiriku]

Angel --> disguise self --> golem. You'll have a whole gang of apparent-golems spellcasting.

[Lord_Gareth]

*Ponders if an actual build is forming in Doc's twisted mind yet.*

[Doc Roc]

Yeah. I'm not particularly twisted though.

[jiriku]

OK, different proposition. Your big vulnerability is stone to flesh, which eliminates your magic immunity for one round. What if you weren't made of stone? That would make you an ineligible target for stone to flesh (since it targets only a petrified creature or a mass of stone). It would be fairly straightforward to build your stone golem, sandwich trick into it, then transmute it into something that's not stone.

[Darrin]

OK, different proposition. Your big vulnerability is stone to flesh, which eliminates your magic immunity for one round. What if you weren't made of stone? That would make you an ineligible target for stone to flesh (since it targets only a petrified creature or a mass of stone). It would be fairly straightforward to build your stone golem, sandwich trick into it, then transmute it into something that's not stone.

There's also the Drakestone Golem (Draconomicon), which has no such stone to flesh vulnerability, just a slow effect with transmute stone to mud. Also, a breath weapon that petrifies with a DC 27 Fort save. Almost double the cost of a standard stone golem, but it's also 35 HD.

[HalfDragonCube]

Are you using the contents of the psionics handbook? The information is on the srd.:smallconfused:

If you are and have feats to spare, I recommend taking Wild Talent and Up the Walls.

A stone golem that moves along walls 'matrix-style' would be awesome!:smallbiggrin:

[Doc Roc]

There's also the Drakestone Golem (Draconomicon), which has no such stone to flesh vulnerability, just a slow effect with transmute stone to mud. Also, a breath weapon that petrifies with a DC 27 Fort save. Almost double the cost of a standard stone golem, but it's also 35 HD.

The issue is that is the same vulnerability that lets us get inside the golem in the first place.

[Lord_Gareth]

OK, different proposition. Your big vulnerability is stone to flesh, which eliminates your magic immunity for one round. What if you weren't made of stone? That would make you an ineligible target for stone to flesh (since it targets only a petrified creature or a mass of stone). It would be fairly straightforward to build your stone golem, sandwich trick into it, then transmute it into something that's not stone.

If the magic immunity doesn't apply to my own spells, it should be pretty easy to go from being stone to, say, adamantine, yes?

[jiriku]

Draconomicon isn't an allowed source, so no Dragonstone golem.

I think the magic immunity does apply to your own spells (unless they don't allow spell resistance). But anything that we can produce as a supernatural effect will slip by. As will anything with an instantaneous duration (such as wish) - you can whack yourself with flesh to stone, cast the instantaneous spell, and if it produces a permanent change, the change sticks even after your magic immunity reinstates.

Edit: Shame you don't have FF available. I'd love to see a kaorti-resin golem.

[Doc Roc]

Draconomicon isn't an allowed source, so no Dragonstone golem.

I think the magic immunity does apply to your own spells (unless they don't allow spell resistance). But anything that we can produce as a supernatural effect will slip by. As will anything with an instantaneous duration (such as wish) - you can whack yourself with flesh to stone, cast the instantaneous spell, and if it produces a permanent change, the change sticks even after your magic immunity reinstates.

Edit: Shame you don't have FF available. I'd love to see a kaorti-resin golem.

Good thought there.... Also, of interest is that we can wear magical items, as we are human shaped.

[Heliomance]

Can Trait Removal be used to remove the vulnerablity to Flesh to Stone once you're inside?

[Adrayll]

Hold the phone. You're immune to ability damage. You're playing a character that will benefit greatly from metamagic. Metaphysical spellshaper?

[jiriku]

Would you have the downtime to write your own spells? A "greater" version of spellmantle (PGtF 112) would be able to convert any incoming stone to flesh spells into something harmless, or even useful (like flesh to stone, say). Of course, you'd still have to figure out how to get the spell cast as a supernatural effect, but one thing at a time.

[dextercorvia]

Where did Energy Transformation Field get printed before SpC? It seems like that would be beneficial.