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profitofrage
2011-03-21, 01:40 AM
Hello Playground.

Due to a rather long discussion in my previous thread
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10596621#post10596621
Its come to my attention that Psykers in Dark Heresy (not acension since...well duh) are a bit to powerful.

I plan to write up some extensive hombrew rules that I myself use often, however I would like your opinion Playground...what do you do to balance (or more to the point control) psykers?

Homebrew so far:


Force Barrage - Acts as force bolt, but the overbleed does not apply to the force bolt itself - thus keeping its static damage.

Force barrage - counts as an attack and thus can be dodged, cover also counts towards damage mitigation.

Phenomina cannot be avoidded via the spending of fate points.

Lycan 01
2011-03-21, 09:43 AM
I just let them screw themselves over. Specifically, there was one time where a trio of cloaked figures showed up and tried to convince the PC's to hand over the heretic they'd caught, claiming they were members of the Inquisition and they had higher authority than the PCs. Well... they were telling the truth.

But the Psyker didn't want to be diplomatic. He thought it would be funny to do Touch of Madness on the tallest cloaked figure. Even though the Arbitrator was doing rather well with the negotiations. So the Psyker tried to pretty much screw over the whole situation for kicks and giggles. But it backfired. Do you want to know why it backfired?

The target was a Daemonhost. :smallcool:

The Psyker promptly found himself being psychically hurled through the air, and the other cloaked figures panicked and ran as the Daemonhost decided to have some fun with the idiot who tried to mess with him.

Thankfully, the team survived the ordeal. The Daemonhost disappeared after they damaged it beyond a certain point, and the cloaked Radical guys managed to work out a deal with the Arbitrator - the Radicals got the Xeno guy, and the PC's got to leave without any further conflict or repercussions. (If the fight had carried on, it would have been a bloodbath - the Radicals had bolters! :smalleek:) So yeah... The Psyker learned not to be an idiot, the hard way. XD



Now, there was one time where I put a bomb in the Psyker's head in case he went crazy... But that backfired when the person who possessed to code word fell to Chaos, and the Psyker tried to be a hero. :smallfrown:

Swordguy
2011-03-21, 10:47 AM
Mechanically, it's correct that psykers in DH are exceptionally powerful, especially if they select the right talents. Granted, this is in Dark Heresy, not Ascension, so they aren't as bad as you might be led to believe. But the limiting factor on Psykers in the 40K setting isn't the mechanics and they were never intended to BE the limiting factor. The limiting factor on psykers is the setting itself.

Every PC psyker is going to have had to go through a journey on the Black Ships and the process of Imperial Sanctioning. The book is fairly clear that this process leaves psykers damaged - both physically (scars, replaced body parts, stuff like hexagrammic wards tattoo'd about the lips), and mentally. Psykers go through an extremely extensive process that essentially instills them with the inherent desire and need to obey orders. Psykers are TOOLS of the Imperium, not really people. While the Inquisition tends to select those psykers who aren't totally subservient to whomever is issuing the orders (the =][= psykers need to have some level of independent decision-making capabilities), they still don't want psykers who are going to use their powers without direct orders or very good reason. There's a term for psykers who use their powers without orders or authorization: rogue. And the Inquisition goes to ridiculous lengths to stamp on rogue psykers - to the point where you as the GM can simply say "I don't care what mechanics you have, you're done."

During the Eisenhorn Trilogy, for example, the Inquisition mobilized several planets worth of Imperial Guard, portions of two chapters of Space Marines, about 50 Inquisitors and their retinues, and a sector BattleFleet of 50+ ships to go after about a half-dozen rogue psykers. The Inquisition doesn't believe in "overkill". If the psyker in the game gets out of hand, this is the entirely appropriate and canonical response...and to hell with whether it's good "game theory" or not. You chose to play the psyker, this is a possible consequence of roleplaying one badly.

Why did I use the word "badly" just now? Because, played "correctly" or "well", a psyker won't get to that point. Regardless of the fact that he can do insane things, mechanically, he should forever and always be subject to the trauma dealt to him during the sanctioning process. He should always WANT to follow orders, to submit to authority, and to remember that because he's a psyker, he's dammed just for existing...but as long as he's a good boy, the Emperor might grant him a bit of mercy. Maybe.

And if he's not sanctioned? Well, he can do what he wants...right up until somebody notices he's not sanctioned. Then you can start referencing the events from the Eisenhorn trilogy I mentioned.

(Oh! Don't forget that this is just stuff from the Imperium that keeps psykers in check! Don't you think LOTS of Chaos Cultists and such would like to turn said psyker to their team? Or, if they can't have him, make sure nobody can.)

profitofrage
2011-03-21, 09:48 PM
I absolutly agree with you that the setting is the biggest limiting factor.
HOWEVER
What happens when the psyker is following orders?
A psyker can one shot (after level 6) almost anything in the game with the right optimisation. He doesnt need to go rouge to still completly out perform the entire party.

This thread is to discuss methods of hombrew that show (in game mechanics) a way of limiting the psyker to be more balanced at these much higher levels. (aside from just a "gentlemens agreement not to own everything")

Ranos
2011-03-22, 12:15 AM
Fluff restrictions just don't work. Sure, the psyker is a tool who has to obey orders and not be a complete powertripping idiot. Newsflash, this applies for every acolyte.

Maybe you could simply not allow psykers. There are plenty of ways for other characters to be fun and diverse. Faith powers, gear, skill specializations, hell, if you really want psychic characters, wyrd or hive mutant lets you have a few minor powers. Adepts have a few as well, and so do sorcerers (but with much higher risks than psykers).

profitofrage
2011-03-22, 01:53 AM
Those are all options for the campaign to stay balanced.
But thats not the point of the thread. The thread is here to try and find a way to make Psykers "less broken" obviously no caster class will ever be truly balanced simply because of the sheer diversity they hold.

I proposition that Force Barrage acts as forcebolt. but the force bolts dont gain overbleed. Thus each bolt stays at its static damage instead of gaining more and more.

Surrealistik
2011-03-22, 04:10 PM
Those are all options for the campaign to stay balanced.
But thats not the point of the thread. The thread is here to try and find a way to make Psykers "less broken" obviously no caster class will ever be truly balanced simply because of the sheer diversity they hold.

I proposition that Force Barrage acts as forcebolt. but the force bolts dont gain overbleed. Thus each bolt stays at its static damage instead of gaining more and more.

That's a start, however alone that doesn't quite balance Force Barrage, and making it useless against high armour/toughness enemies is far from an ideal solution. I'd say a better fix is to instead take inspiration from the Force attacks in Rogue Trader/Deathwatch and build on those.

profitofrage
2011-03-23, 07:14 AM
I personally dislike Rouge trader. I honesty have never known why I do. Deathwatch I love its great to play space marines..but for the strangest reason I have never taken to Rouge Trader..which was basically the begining of 40k to start with.

In any case, I think It balances force barrage rather nicely. It makes the botls themselves no much more damaging then automatic weapons, and is less effective against high toughness enemies...if they want raw damage output thats what the single forcebolt is for. It would prevent One hit kills on "everything" and make it a "one hit kill on weak - mid str opponants." + "hit many targets" Which i think is rather reasonable.
Plus it should be dodged, since it is an attack of sorts I see no reason why someone cant just jump out of the way. It doesnt imply that its undodgeable..or that its homing just that its a bolt of force.
Which of course would mean that cover applies as well. Further reducing its lethality while still making it a nice buy for psykers wishing for better crowd control.

gdiddy
2011-03-23, 10:11 AM
I thought Perils were supposed to police psykers. You don't need homebrew, just let the the odds turn him into a daemonhost.

Is he building around avoiding Perils? Well, he's an acolyte, who is operating in the worst of situations, where the veil between the reality and the veil is weakest. So his super-stable psyker is now rolling phenomena and perils on a 20+ if he is near a cult or in the presence of any warp weapon.

The GM section of DH, specifically says to have this happen occasionally.

It's not really Dark Heresy until he accidentally reverses gravity while driving a truck and causes it to overturn, killing half the other players in the resulting crash and the rest when the thing they're chasing catches up to him.

profitofrage
2011-03-23, 10:22 AM
yes perils can help, however if you check the thread I mention in my first post youll see that this doesnt police it nearly well enough in the later levels (5+)
The result is that the later half of the game (not counting acension) The psyker can and will always attack first..and can one shot even daemonhosts.
Fate points mean you can negate perils..and since you have about 2-3 per session its more likely youll never spend them then you will get perils.

Which leads me to my next suggestion
Fate points cannot be spent to reroll phenomina occuring.

gdiddy
2011-03-23, 10:39 AM
I thought this was always the case, at least it is in RT and errata.

But, yeah, reasonable.

I guess my next question is how did you let the psyker live that long?

Why are you making encounters so easily won? He should be burning fate points to deal with the Incubi that just decided they want to macrame his entrails into friendship bracelets, not prevent his hair from getting mussed by the warp.

profitofrage
2011-03-23, 10:44 AM
well as a GM you may very well like to single out players to kill off for the sole purpose of stopping there problems late game. However there are alot of GM's out there who dont, instead creating a fair playing field in respects to the setting and game mechanics. ( I understand the psyker SHOULD be targeted by warp, cultist, psychic enemies more so then the other players..but if your sending threats they cannot hope to defeat then its not really a game its a slaughter.)

Thus we have to assume that if any other character can live that long, thus so should the psyker. Whats more is with smart Exp purchases you can have the psyker survive just as easily (if not more so) then the other carreers.

gdiddy
2011-03-23, 11:06 AM
I don't target psykers, until they start using powers. Then, they will become the target of every baddie with an int above 25. Not singling them out. I think that is an unfair DM trick.

But when constructing DH encounters, I plan intelligently, because I want my players to surprise me when they make it out alive. 1-2 player deaths an adventure is not outside the norm.

Our last encounter:

Secure Imperial desert compound. Apparently abandoned. Let them report in and get their bearings, investigating the eerie silence of the base. Oh wait, it wasn't abandoned, it got taken in by a genestealer cult and are now calling in the tendril of a splinter hive.

Sure, I'll leave my players a get away lighter, but I'll also have the genestealer cultists come out of the floor on round 2. If they can't kill the zoanthrope before leaving, it has a 50% chance of downing the lighter each round for 5 rounds, a percentage they can modify with piloting skills. Of wait, the pilot died in combat? I guess they need to get to the land speeder hanger a quarter mile through the compound.

There in that hanger, fuel/promethium cannisters litter the floor. If the cannisters go up, the land speeders are destroyed and they need to walk out: a sure fire way to die one by one on the way to another transport option as the genestealers run them down in the desert.

Disorient them. Keep them scared. They are not the heroes. This is Dark Heresy. Give the Ascension Book and then laugh as they hope, because THEY WILL NEVER GET TO USE IT.

Also, if the other players are not having fun because a Psyker is one shotting everything, I expect everyone will talk it out. This will probably result in the psyker being promoted out of the group and sent off to be awesome somewhere else.

profitofrage
2011-03-23, 11:14 AM
Ok I do understand the love of making gamers squirm and beg in the face of sheer destruction they only have the slightest of chances of surviving. However this thread isnt about what we do to make sure nothing progresses to that stage.
Its about what we do when and if we do get there.
Whats more, is that although it is perfectly reasonable to come to a 'gentlemens agreement' over the continued existance or behavior of the psyker, this threads objective was really more to find a mechanical way to accomplish the same sorts of things, that way psykers know from the start what they can and cant do and makes things far more agreeable later in the game.

on a final note :P may I steal that campaign idea? Although I would suspect Genestealers to pick a more inhabited or vital point to infiltrate (unless said facility was indeed vital) its still a brilliant Idea for a one off adventure.

gdiddy
2011-03-23, 11:26 AM
I just think what you're after is coming from a WotC mentality and just really outside the feeling and atmosphere of DH. The rules are not part of the game in DH.

Absolutely. I was totally lying and just came up with it on the fly while I was typing my post. If you're players go all tricksie hobbit on you and ask why genestealers went to a desert planet, explain that the Genestealers are after the hives, of which there were several on the planet.

profitofrage
2011-03-23, 07:12 PM
Im afraid i have no idea what WotC is? In fact the only gaming systems I run are Deathwatch and Dark Heresy so if that concept is from something else Im not sure if it really applies right now. The feeling and atmosphere of Dh can be accomplished quite well without actually killing your characters in every session.
This isnt Call of Cathulu or Paranoia there are many different ways you can play the game. That is why they give you fate points to stave off death, the intention ISNT always to kill the characters thats just one way to play the game.

Destro_Yersul
2011-03-23, 07:56 PM
The easiest way to balance psykers out is by using the rules as intended, as well as the setting. Force barrage came up in a game I was running. Both of those rules in your first post, I used. Force barrage can be dodged, because by common sense it is an attack. it even has a roll to hit. I believe I basically used it like a full-auto version of Force Bolt. It didn't gain any overbleed from that, because it's a seperate power. The bolts just happen to be the same sort of bolt.

Sure, the psyker still killed the baddie in one go, because it failed its dodge, but there were four others who promptly started carving up the rest of the party. For some reason he didn't seem to want to launch a force barrage into close combat with the squishier members of the group.

That same psyker has rather poor luck with perils. He seems to end up rolling a 9 on every other dice. Once he accidentally fried a whole hab-block full of people, all of whom began screaming and running. The group had to slip off quietly and abandon most of the data they were after.

The true limit on the power of psykers is the GM.

profitofrage
2011-03-23, 08:06 PM
Rules as intended is always nice, and yes the setting itself is a huge factor for Psyker balance. Thank you for your post, since it solidifies that the homebrew mentioned woks in practise. The setting however doesnt play as large a part as you think on the psyker. Heres what would have happened if you DIDNT use the homebrew mentioned.

round 1
Psyker goes first if they have preternatural dodge giving them 30+ initiative.
Uses Force barrage to One hit the Big bad guy.
Other people do meaningless things because the psyker can dodge whatever they got.

round 2
Psyker uses force barrage to one hit kill anything left because the power isnt specifically an attack and thus cannot be dodged / cannot hit others in close combat.

round 3 - whenever
Repeat round 2.


really it just ends up as the other players being a meatshield for the psyker.
not to mention that the psyker COULD split up his bolts to kill multiple targets at ounce if they dont have 15+ wounds each.

Surrealistik
2011-03-23, 08:22 PM
The best way to deal with FB I think is to:

A: Make the bolts dodgable.

B: Have the overbleed increase the damage of the bolts only.

This has the advantage of reducing its raw damage output to far more acceptable levels, while simultaneously allowing FB's performance to remain adequate against tougher/more heavily armoured opponents.

There are other problems that remain though: Glimpse, Push, Seal Wounds, Precision Telekinesis and Preternatural Awareness as a couple of examples all give the Psyker too much flexibility and power.

profitofrage
2011-03-23, 08:41 PM
Making Force barrage good against armored opponants with Less hits seems to be against the main point of the power i.e to hit many times.
Id personally rather give them the oppertunity to fire many weaker bolts then limit them to a small few and make them more powerful...thats what the singular force bolt is for.

as for the other powers.

Glimpse i dont see to much of an issue with..it can only be used with skill tests capable of being used in a half action? since its not sustained and is removed on the next round. Theres no overbleed and situational modifers effect it. Whats more is it cant be used on advance skills the psyker hasnt yet already purchased. Its skill tests only so it cant be used for attributes or anything..the most i see it used on is perhaps lore tests? or medicae? I dunno perhaps give me an example why this is bad? since it cant be used in conjunction with other things.

Push isnt to unbalanced...perhaps remove the +10 to the test on overbleed and its reasonable.

I have no issue with seal wounds...perhaps its threshold of 10. Id probably bump that to maybe 15-18. Most of the threats in DH are threats because they kill you / render you useless in one go anyway and if the psyker is sitting there healing constantly..hes not casting other powers.

Precision telekinesis is fine if you go RAI.
Precision telekinesis only uses willpower as the base test to accomplish the fine manipulation. I.e willpower test to fire the weapon...Ballistic to roll to hit. Precision telekinesis cannot be used to lift large loads only manipulate fine tasks.

Preternatural awareness isnt an issue, its a sustained power..BUT such powers outside of combat require a reroll every 30 or so in game seconds to continue manifesting the power. There going to fail eventually and that incurs potential perils on rerolling to manifest.
Thus realistically it can only be used when the psyker is prepared which I think is fine..since it meerily garentees they go first. OR when there already in combat of which they wont go first first round where they must then use the power. Which means the psyker can still be surprised and potentially controled (or forced to use other actions).

Surrealistik
2011-03-23, 09:00 PM
Making Force barrage good against armored opponants with Less hits seems to be against the main point of the power i.e to hit many times.
Id personally rather give them the oppertunity to fire many weaker bolts then limit them to a small few and make them more powerful...thats what the singular force bolt is for.

The point of the power is to essentially be a more powerful version of Force Bolt, in much the same way Firestorm is a more powerful version of Fireball which _also_ is great at crowd control. Besides, as armor penetration goes, Force Bolt is already beat out and invalidated by most conventional weapons.


Glimpse i dont see to much of an issue with..it can only be used with skill tests capable of being used in a half action? since its not sustained and is removed on the next round. Theres no overbleed and situational modifers effect it. Whats more is it cant be used on advance skills the psyker hasnt yet already purchased. Its skill tests only so it cant be used for attributes or anything..the most i see it used on is perhaps lore tests? or medicae? I dunno perhaps give me an example why this is bad? since it cant be used in conjunction with other things.


It can be used on any skill. A +30 stacking bonus to _any_ skill is huge, and it's not actually limited to skill tests capable of being performed in a Half Action because it's until the end of your _next_ turn. It can also be done by Psi 4 with a single Psi dice.


Push isnt to unbalanced...perhaps remove the +10 to the test on overbleed and its reasonable.

Push is broken given the rules of Fatigue: you will almost beat the target's STR by a significant margin given that the power is Threshold 14, Overbleed 5.


I have no issue with seal wounds...perhaps its threshold of 10. Id probably bump that to maybe 15-18. Most of the threats in DH are threats because they kill you / render you useless in one go anyway and if the psyker is sitting there healing constantly..hes not casting other powers.

Seal Wound's Threshold was actually increased, and it's still too powerful for what it does in too little a time; nothing else in the game can bring an acolyte from critical damage to full health in half an action. That's insane. Almost totally invalidates Medicae by the way.


Precision telekinesis is fine if you go RAI.
Precision telekinesis only uses willpower as the base test to accomplish the fine manipulation. I.e willpower test to fire the weapon...Ballistic to roll to hit. Precision telekinesis cannot be used to lift large loads only manipulate fine tasks.

Going to have to disagree with you on the RAI. You're using your mind to guide and fire the weapon, so WP is what is tested. That said, fine manipulation of objects encompasses a _lot_ of skills and tests (Security, Concealment for hiding things, Medicae, Demolitions, etc...), and this power allows you to use your insanely highly WP attribute for all of them. What is RAI here is ambiguous and debatable as well.


Preternatural awareness isnt an issue, its a sustained power..BUT such powers outside of combat require a reroll every 30 or so in game seconds to continue manifesting the power. There going to fail eventually and that incurs potential perils on rerolling to manifest.

No it's not. First of all, it's every 100 seconds (a round is ~10 seconds), and it's impossible to fail a Threshold 9 Test at the moment you can use greater powers.


Thus realistically it can only be used when the psyker is prepared which I think is fine..since it meerily garentees they go first. OR when there already in combat of which they wont go first first round where they must then use the power. Which means the psyker can still be surprised and potentially controled (or forced to use other actions).

+20 Perception is a huge benefit besides the autofirst turn (which is also obviously a ridiculously powerful benefit), and I would use it for that alone. This power was almost always active on my Psyker, except when I needed every last point for my Psi rolls, and it had absolutely no benefit, _or_ I needed to maximize my Concealment (Chameleon) or become immune to fire/heat (Endure Flames), etc...

And these aren't nearly all of the problem powers the Psyker has access to.

Lycan 01
2011-03-23, 11:54 PM
Wait, time out. Fate Points can't reroll perils? :smallconfused:

Ranos
2011-03-24, 01:37 AM
Wait, time out. Fate Points can't reroll perils? :smallconfused:
Fate points can only be used to reroll Tests (your basic "Roll under a stat to succeed"). Power rolls, phenomenas and perils are not Tests.

profitofrage
2011-03-24, 06:01 AM
Precision Telekinesis:
It does not state at all as to what wieght limit it can lift,push or pull. So it was my understanding / assumption that the idea was that the tasks it was meant to be used for..such limits were negligable. I.e pulling a lever..puling a pin on a grenade.
The idea is you use the Willpower test to pull the lever..rather then a str test..or pull the pin on a grenade without the agility test.
If you lift up a gun and try and point it...its not the telekinesis hyper aiming the gun..it should be the instrament for which you hold it...i.e still requiring you to use BS to point it correctly.

Moreover because the power doesnt have a weight limit..id say it should only be used in matters requiring fine manipulation like typing on a pad. Any advanced skill cannot be substituted...you shouldnt be able to activate a bomb if you dont have demolitions..how would the psyker even know what buttons to manipulate in the first place? I.e hed need the power to manipulate it..then the demo check to do it properly.

Glimpse
a +30 bonus to any skill IS a great bonus...but it doesnt stack since ALL skill tests must range from -30 to + 30. Other things can negate that. Whats more is the psyker cant use it on advance skills..because without the skill he cannot preform the tests as per RAW. Its a powerful power...but we cant strip the psyker of all there arsenal.
Any more balancing I would place on it is perhaps a Time limit between uses. Something like glimpsing into the future being haphazard..altering the flow of time by making different actions in to short a time span can cause the person to see a mistaken time. Thus negating the test or something along those lines.

Push
Remove the +10 to the test via overbleed and you have a garenteed knock out for a human opponant...a discipline power BETTER be good enough to do that. Otherwise you have something ike a willpower 70 vs (anything with x2 STR - almost everything by that stage) 60-75 which I think is a fair fight.
Not to mention it only effects one target per round.

Seal wounds:
It doesnt stop bleeding..doesnt regenerate lost limbs..doesnt heal fatigue doesnt heal lost stat damage...cant be used to save limbs....Yea im VERY sure it doesnt come close to replacing good old Medicae. And since its threshold WAS increased I think its pretty safe as is. Its powerful but not so much as to not be worked around.

Preternatural awareness:

WAIT WHAT!...threshold 9!...ok yea thats gotta go. Id make that a threshold 20+ power then leave it as is. That way the psyker cant just have it on constantly..which is what makes the power broken.

+20 perception is a big boost yes...BUT if they cant have it on constantly this is made rather useless OR made in preperation..which I always think should be allowed. If a team is prepping for a big fight..why shouldnt they benifit in everyway they can?


If you can think of other problem powers please do tell me, The more i can put on my homebrew list the better.

Surrealistik
2011-03-24, 09:29 AM
It does not state at all as to what wieght limit it can lift,push or pull. So it was my understanding / assumption that the idea was that the tasks it was meant to be used for..such limits were negligable. I.e pulling a lever..puling a pin on a grenade.
The idea is you use the Willpower test to pull the lever..rather then a str test..or pull the pin on a grenade without the agility test.
If you lift up a gun and try and point it...its not the telekinesis hyper aiming the gun..it should be the instrament for which you hold it...i.e still requiring you to use BS to point it correctly.

Moreover because the power doesnt have a weight limit..id say it should only be used in matters requiring fine manipulation like typing on a pad. Any advanced skill cannot be substituted...you shouldnt be able to activate a bomb if you dont have demolitions..how would the psyker even know what buttons to manipulate in the first place? I.e hed need the power to manipulate it..then the demo check to do it properly.


That's complete and total opinion, and again, the RAI is debatable at best. That said though, it appears obvious that the breadth of Precision Telekinesis is meant to be greater than as a simple strength or agility substitute. Aiming a weapon with PT is comparable to aiming Force Bolts with your WP.


Glimpse
a +30 bonus to any skill IS a great bonus...but it doesnt stack since ALL skill tests must range from -30 to + 30. Other things can negate that. Whats more is the psyker cant use it on advance skills..because without the skill he cannot preform the tests as per RAW. Its a powerful power...but we cant strip the psyker of all there arsenal.
Any more balancing I would place on it is perhaps a Time limit between uses. Something like glimpsing into the future being haphazard..altering the flow of time by making different actions in to short a time span can cause the person to see a mistaken time. Thus negating the test or something along those lines.

There is no such +30 limit first of all.

Second, sure, you can't use it on advanced skills you don't have, but there are precious few (if any) of these the Psyker doesn't gain access to.


Push
Remove the +10 to the test via overbleed and you have a garenteed knock out for a human opponant...a discipline power BETTER be good enough to do that. Otherwise you have something ike a willpower 70 vs (anything with x2 STR - almost everything by that stage) 60-75 which I think is a fair fight.
Not to mention it only effects one target per round.

Remove the Overbleed and you have a terrible, non-scaling power. I think the best idea is to increase the Overbleed value to 10, so it scales, but not at a ridiculous rate.


Seal wounds:
It doesnt stop bleeding..doesnt regenerate lost limbs..doesnt heal fatigue doesnt heal lost stat damage...cant be used to save limbs....Yea im VERY sure it doesnt come close to replacing good old Medicae. And since its threshold WAS increased I think its pretty safe as is. Its powerful but not so much as to not be worked around.

No, it alone doesn't _completely_ replace Medicae (not that I ever claimed that it did), but it comes very close, namely by totally outperforming the skill's main function. That said, it doesn't need to remove fatigue or stop bleeding because you have _cantrips_ that do just that far better than Medicae can ever hope to. That said, the Psyker is actually one of the best practitioners of Medicae in the first place.

Furthermore, if you're going to look to 'RAI' (or even 'rules as realistic') as a remedy, it's a two way street; RAI with Seal Wounds would do all of the above with the exception of removing fatigue.



WAIT WHAT!...threshold 9!...ok yea thats gotta go. Id make that a threshold 20+ power then leave it as is. That way the psyker cant just have it on constantly..which is what makes the power broken.

+20 perception is a big boost yes...BUT if they cant have it on constantly this is made rather useless OR made in preperation..which I always think should be allowed. If a team is prepping for a big fight..why shouldnt they benifit in everyway they can?

Still way too broken given the Overbleed effect. I actually don't find that the power is _too bad_ so long as the Overbleed effect is kept in check. I'd have each increment of Overbleed grant a +1 bonus to Initiative, or a +2/3 bonus to the Perception bonus.

Destro_Yersul
2011-03-24, 09:40 AM
There is no such +30 limit first of all.

You're right. It got errata'd to be +60/-60. Used to be +30/-30 were the maximum for modifiers, though.



No, it alone doesn't _completely_ replace Medicae (not that I ever claimed that it did), but it comes very close, namely by totally outperforming the skill's main function. That said, it doesn't need to remove fatigue or stop bleeding because you have _cantrips_ that do just that far better than Medicae can ever hope to. That said, the Psyker is actually one of the best practitioners of Medicae in the first place.

Good quickfix for Seal Wounds would be to apply the same sort of penalty that heal has, so it becomes a more powerful version of that, but can't be used on the same person too often.

Thought of another fun way to whack FB with a Nerfbat while I was at work today. If it gets fired into melee, randomize the hits between the target and the target's opponent.

profitofrage
2011-03-24, 09:42 AM
Precision telekenis:
Look at the name....read it...it says Precision. I.e the idea it should do MORE then telekinesis is correct...its meant to be a precise method of manipulating things.
It says so in the description of the power. If telekinises was a sledgehammer precision telekinesis is the scalpel. I.e you dont use it to aim whole guns, you dont use it to throw a detpack at an enemy. Thats what Telekinesis is for.
This is for typing on a keypad from a distance...pulling the pin of a grenade e.t.c
Its not meant to do telekinesis + more. Its meant to perform in a way Telekinesis cant.


Glimpse
Please reread Dark Heresy, the -30 / +30 skill test gap does in fact exit. Theres also a -60 / + 60 cap on combat tests. I thought this was general knowledge?

Push
I think thats probably a better way to go at it in all honesty.


You're right. It got errata'd to be +60/-60. Used to be +30/-30 were the maximum for modifiers, though.


I think youll find that is for combat..NOT skill tests.

Destro_Yersul
2011-03-24, 10:05 AM
Page number, please? I've just been through the entire chapter on playing the game, and I can't seem to find the rule you're referencing. Unless you mean the difficulty modifiers? Those do indeed range from +30 to -30, but they're a seperate thing than total modifier.

profitofrage
2011-03-24, 10:18 AM
page 197 of the core rulebook. check sidebar on the topic of "combining difficulties"

I have reread the entire errata...and although I swear i saw it mention the -60 + 60 for combat only, i cannot find it now.

Destro_Yersul
2011-03-24, 10:21 AM
That's the one where it mentions +60 and -60. I suspect the problem here is that you have an older version of the core book.

Surrealistik
2011-03-24, 10:26 AM
Precision telekenis:
Look at the name....read it...it says Precision. I.e the idea it should do MORE then telekinesis is correct...its meant to be a precise method of manipulating things.
It says so in the description of the power. If telekinises was a sledgehammer precision telekinesis is the scalpel. I.e you dont use it to aim whole guns, you dont use it to throw a detpack at an enemy. Thats what Telekinesis is for.
This is for typing on a keypad from a distance...pulling the pin of a grenade e.t.c
Its not meant to do telekinesis + more. Its meant to perform in a way Telekinesis cant.

You can't aim guns with Telekinesis; that's way too precise for the power.

And yes, in many ways, PT is Telekinesis + more, just like Force Barrage is Force Bolt + more. Hell, you can carry more with PT than you can with basic Telekinesis since you use your WP in place of your S and T for determining carry weight.

PT allows you to manipulate, arm/disarm detpacks, lock pick, deactivate that security camera, etc..


Glimpse
Please reread Dark Heresy, the -30 / +30 skill test gap does in fact exit. Theres also a -60 / + 60 cap on combat tests. I thought this was general knowledge?

It's not because it's not true.

Ranos
2011-03-24, 03:24 PM
That's the one where it mentions +60 and -60. I suspect the problem here is that you have an older version of the core book.
It does mention a +30/-30 limit on mine too, not +60/-60. Weird, normally they should put stuff they've changed into the errata.

Destro_Yersul
2011-03-24, 05:43 PM
It's in the errata, but all the newer printings of the book have the errata included.

profitofrage
2011-03-25, 12:36 AM
And yes, in many ways, PT is Telekinesis + more, just like Force Barrage is Force Bolt + more. Hell, you can carry more with PT than you can with basic Telekinesis since you use your WP in place of your S and T for determining carry weight.


It's not because it's not true.

PT is only Telekinesis + more because of the poorly written nature of the power.
This isnt DnD, powers arnt meant to be slowly replaced by better ones down the track with the exception of LESSER powers.
The main point of al dicsipline powers is they each have there niche and use.
One shouldnt override the other, the Psyker has a far to short a list of powers to do this to.
Thats why rather then making force bolt useless...It gets to be the sniper round in comparison to the force barrages autogun.
As for telekinesis...it should be used for MOVING thing with your MIND. I.e you can move them however you like. What you move..and what direction you move it to..shouldnt be willpower it should be the relevent test associated with it. Precision telekinesis main objective..clearly shown by the name...is to be precise....to do what Telekinesis cant do. "type on key pads. remove pins on grenades..pull small levers..open a lock by pushing a key in. Its not meant to be a "oh ****..I cant deactivate this bomb with my hands....ill use telekinesis instead so i can use willpower." Its a "damb i cant reach the bomb...where trapped behind these bars...FEAR NOT..i can reach it with my mind!" Hence the homebrew to MAKE it that and not just an easy abuse "substitute willpower here" power.

I dont have the "new" printing of the core rulebook, but if it is indeed -60 / +60 meh..the same effect is the same. Its +30...situational modifers e.t.c Can be done if its use on advance skills is limited to only those the psyker can use..im perfectly prepared to give this to him. They need some high powered spells to compete with the threats youll throw against them. Whats more..is its SKILL tests...so poisen..fatigue..willpower..all of them dont count because there not skill tests there attribute tests. I see no reason why this is broken...its just powerful.

MickJay
2011-03-25, 08:52 AM
Errata, relevant bit is on the bottom left of the second page: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/dark-heresy/pdf/darkheresy-errata-v3.0.pdf

First page changes situational combat modifiers limit to +60/-60, others remain capped at +30/-30 as described in the table on p. 197 of the core book.

profitofrage
2011-03-25, 08:55 AM
I knew i saw this somewhere. Thank you for posting it.

Surrealistik
2011-03-25, 09:16 AM
Still waiting for the page # with the rule that non-combat Test modifiers are capped at -30/+30.


As for telekinesis...it should be used for MOVING thing with your MIND. I.e you can move them however you like. What you move..and what direction you move it to..shouldnt be willpower it should be the relevent test associated with it. Precision telekinesis main objective..clearly shown by the name...is to be precise....to do what Telekinesis cant do. "type on key pads. remove pins on grenades..pull small levers..open a lock by pushing a key in. Its not meant to be a "oh ****..I cant deactivate this bomb with my hands....ill use telekinesis instead so i can use willpower." Its a "damb i cant reach the bomb...where trapped behind these bars...FEAR NOT..i can reach it with my mind!" Hence the homebrew to MAKE it that and not just an easy abuse "substitute willpower here" power.


Willpower as a substitute for attributes like Strength, Agility, WS and BS with PT makes perfect and complete sense; for anything that requires physical prowess or manual dexterity, WP is perfectly applicable. Other characteristics being substituted don't make sense.


I dont have the "new" printing of the core rulebook, but if it is indeed -60 / +60 meh..the same effect is the same. Its +30...situational modifers e.t.c Can be done if its use on advance skills is limited to only those the psyker can use..im perfectly prepared to give this to him. They need some high powered spells to compete with the threats youll throw against them. Whats more..is its SKILL tests...so poisen..fatigue..willpower..all of them dont count because there not skill tests there attribute tests. I see no reason why this is broken...its just powerful.

It's broken because it turns the Psyker into a better than instant expert at whatever skill he has training in, and it _stacks_ with any training he does have. Sure he can't use it on Characteristic Tests, just like Force Barrage can't solve an investigation for you; that doesn't mean it's not overpowered.

Also the Psyker has access to virtually every advanced skill in the game; that's not a limitation.

profitofrage
2011-03-25, 09:25 AM
its clear you barely read my posts as ive already stated its on page 197.
the errata ONLY updates combat situational tests being -60 / + 60.
Thus the +30 MAY stack...but it will still only ever get to +30. something other characters can get readily anyway although not as easily. Its a powerful power...not a broken one. by the time you can get this power..your probably not far off getting that skill mastery in the skills youll be using it for anyhow.

Edit:
On the point of precision telekinesis. a str test to pull a lever? sure. A dexterity test to pull a pin on a grenade? sure. A test to type the buttons on a detpack? absolutly. All those things i believe should be substituted....because those things are negligable. The point of the power is to give the psyker the ability to accomplish these tasks with his mind...NOT substitute his willpower to make the test. Hence my homebrew tries to accomplish that.
The spell isnt meant to be a better version of telekinesis because then why HAVE telekinesis at all? there both available at the same time...with your version you can use it for all the same things? the psykers power list is not extensive enough to warrent "that power but 1 level up" So im doing what i believe is the logical thing..making the power be a utility that the psyker would otherwise not get..while at the same time ensuring its not encroaching on other powers.

Surrealistik
2011-03-25, 09:41 AM
its clear you barely read my posts as ive already stated its on page 197.
the errata ONLY updates combat situational tests being -60 / + 60.
Thus the +30 MAY stack...but it will still only ever get to +30. something other characters can get readily anyway although not as easily. Its a powerful power...not a broken one. by the time you can get this power..your probably not far off getting that skill mastery in the skills youll be using it for anyhow.

I've already looked at this page. There is _nothing_ that in any way says non-combat skill test modifiers are capped.


Edit:
On the point of precision telekinesis. a str test to pull a lever? sure. A dexterity test to pull a pin on a grenade? sure. A test to type the buttons on a detpack? absolutly. All those things i believe should be substituted....because those things are negligable. The point of the power is to give the psyker the ability to accomplish these tasks with his mind...NOT substitute his willpower to make the test. Hence my homebrew tries to accomplish that.
The spell isnt meant to be a better version of telekinesis because then why HAVE telekinesis at all? there both available at the same time...with your version you can use it for all the same things? the psykers power list is not extensive enough to warrent "that power but 1 level up" So im doing what i believe is the logical thing..making the power be a utility that the psyker would otherwise not get..while at the same time ensuring its not encroaching on other powers.

If your homebrew annihilates PT's ability to substitute WP for things that make sense, you've overnerfed the hell out of the power. The only thing I'd do is limit the amount you can carry with PT to your WP bonus, and specify that WP can only substitute for Strength/Agility/BS/WS. I'd also _empower_ Telekinesis to make it more desirable by comparison because that power is just awful.

MickJay
2011-03-25, 09:48 AM
By strict reading, the table from p. 197 applies to all tests, not just combat situations (though combat-only examples may suggest otherwise). Most people I know read it as applying to all tests. It's one of those cases where the rules are ambiguous (or just badly written).

My current favorite is the rule from Rogue Trader, about attacking helpless opponents. The hit is automatic, no roll required, and you roll damage twice; with two "10s" Righteous Fury is automatic. With only one "10", you still need to roll for RF as normal. Except that for RF, you make a roll with all the original modifiers, and in this case, that means "you hit" automatically anyway...

Another one was the Lathe Blade upgrade description from IH, which, as far as I know, is the only place where an item's own armor value is mentioned. So it's an extremely durable weapon... but also the only weapon with an actual armor value listed. And no clarification on what happens with that value is exceeded, either.

profitofrage
2011-03-25, 09:48 AM
are you reading the right page? theres a giant box off to the side titled "Combining test difficulties."

of which it very clearly states.
"If the situation would apply to or more bonuses add the modifers together to a maximum of + 30."

My homebrew is less "they can now activate bombs with willpower" and more "uses a willpower test to activate a bomb across the room"

Its less "I can now be crazy accurate by pointing the gun with my mind than simply holding it" and "I can set off the enemies pistol while its in his holster"
The aim is to allow it to do what the other Telekinesis cannot do without replacing it. There shouldnt be a carry limit or pushing limit, because thats what Telekinesis should be used for. It should only be able to preform tests where picking it up e.t.c would be negligable.


Edit: since i only just saw the post directly above, I do happen to like that rule it tends to fix that the best thing (most reliable) an assasin can do when behind a sentry theyve snuck up on is open full auto burst into his head after 10 seconds aiming at an unarmored area like the neck.

Surrealistik
2011-03-25, 09:56 AM
By strict reading, the table from p. 197 applies to all tests, not just combat situations (though combat-only examples may suggest otherwise). Most people I know read it as applying to all tests. It's one of those cases where the rules are ambiguous (or just badly written).

My current favorite is the rule from Rogue Trader, about attacking helpless opponents. The hit is automatic, no roll required, and you roll damage twice; with two "10s" Righteous Fury is automatic. With only one "10", you still need to roll for RF as normal. Except that for RF, you make a roll with all the original modifiers, and in this case, that means "you hit" automatically anyway...

I'm almost 100% certain that this is actually combat specific, and has been verified as such by the designers.


My homebrew is less "they can now activate bombs with willpower" and more "uses a willpower test to activate a bomb across the room"

Its less "I can now be crazy accurate by pointing the gun with my mind than simply holding it" and "I can set off the enemies pistol while its in his holster"
The aim is to allow it to do what the other Telekinesis cannot do without replacing it. There shouldnt be a carry limit or pushing limit, because thats what Telekinesis should be used for. It should only be able to preform tests where picking it up e.t.c would be negligable.

Your homebrew is more I'd rarely use PT, it's now a low priority power, and the Telekinesis discipline has taken a huge hit. That's just awful. Yes, it still offers some flexibility, but you've killed the functions of the power that make it worth taking, and rolling dice to beat that high 23 Threshold.

profitofrage
2011-03-25, 10:02 AM
I have a page number and quotes...you have hearsay. I backed up what you contested so strongly I suggest you do as well.

You were using the power as an abuse, to aim guns with willpower so you didnt have to invest in BS?
What made the power "worth taking" was its easy abuse and ability to sub any characteristic or some skill tests with the willpower characteristic...THAT to me is broken and far from what the power is about and described as.
Telekinesis taking a hit as a discipline? Its still got Force barrage and force bolt? Its still got Push?
All the other powers are rather tasty looking from my point of view.

Surrealistik
2011-03-25, 10:52 AM
I have a page number and quotes...you have hearsay. I backed up what you contested so strongly I suggest you do as well.

It's not hearsay, so much as it's a sidebar in a combat section in which every last example refers to combat. Just for you though, I'm going to write in and get a definitive answer from the Word of God.


You were using the power as an abuse, to aim guns with willpower so you didnt have to invest in BS?
What made the power "worth taking" was its easy abuse and ability to sub any characteristic or some skill tests with the willpower characteristic...THAT to me is broken and far from what the power is about and described as.
Telekinesis taking a hit as a discipline? Its still got Force barrage and force bolt? Its still got Push?
All the other powers are rather tasty looking from my point of view.

Using the power as intended is not abuse.

Force Bolt is an awful, pointless power, and it's not just because Force Barrage is infinitely better, it's because Force Bolt really does just suck in its own right.

Force Barrage is obviously good, and indispensible, as is Push, but PT was one of _the_ key powers, up there with FB.

All the other powers, Psychic Blade and Catch Projectiles excepted, are either overcosted or ineffective. Fling is situationally useful vs nulls and other psychic immunes.

MickJay
2011-03-25, 01:53 PM
With Precision Telekinesis, I'd say it's a bit murky. If someone asked me, "Manipulating objects as if you were handling them" does not allow to manipulate objects you're already holding, in hands or with other powers - and PT does not allow levitating heavier objects (like weapons). Furthermore, Telekinesis, the power that does let you lift objects, explicitly says you can't make attacks with items manipulated with that power.

Personally, I'd limit PT to some Agility and certain Intelligence based checks (those that do involve manipulating objects).

Destro_Yersul
2011-03-25, 05:34 PM
Honestly, if I was GMing a game, I'd just make judgement calls limiting what PT can actually do. Can you pick up a gun with it? Yes. Can you fire that gun? yes. You're still going to be testing BS to hit, though.

profitofrage
2011-03-25, 09:05 PM
Using the power as intended? Your main use for the power was weilding guns e.t.c and disarming bombs with it so that instead of the appropriete attribute tests you instead use willpower..a psykers best stat.
If the power was called..."Power of the mind" and was described as "using your mind to force reality to bend to your will" Then hell yea Id see your point...but its not...its described as a refined precise version of Telekinesis.
Telekenisis meaning MOVING THINGS with your MIND.
Not using the sheer force of will to auto aim at people, that still requires you have an idea as to what direction the gun is facing...is that direction AT the target..recoil e.t.c With the bomb you cant use telekinesis to just ARM it. No your using it to manipulate the buttons..levers e.t.c TO turn it on.
I.e if you DONT know how to turn it on in the first place...you wont know what buttons to press..and hence the telekinesis cant be used to turn it on.

Your arguing to keep the powers effects because its mechanics allow you to use it as a willpower substitute. This is clearly against the whole point of the power.


OF COURSE force bolt is pointless compared to Force barrage...it works the same way but you get more of them? Duh?
The point of the homebrew was to fix that? If force bolt was the only way to increase base damage 1D10 + 7 (+ overbleed) it would have the potential to get past damage resistances where as the homebrew force barrage wouldnt (static at 1D10 + 7).
Sure Force barrage still takes the lead but only in the same way an autogun is better then a sniper rifle.

Surrealistik
2011-03-25, 09:56 PM
Using the power as intended? Your main use for the power was weilding guns e.t.c and disarming bombs with it so that instead of the appropriete attribute tests you instead use willpower..a psykers best stat.
If the power was called..."Power of the mind" and was described as "using your mind to force reality to bend to your will" Then hell yea Id see your point...but its not...its described as a refined precise version of Telekinesis.
Telekenisis meaning MOVING THINGS with your MIND.
Not using the sheer force of will to auto aim at people, that still requires you have an idea as to what direction the gun is facing...is that direction AT the target..recoil e.t.c With the bomb you cant use telekinesis to just ARM it. No your using it to manipulate the buttons..levers e.t.c TO turn it on.
I.e if you DONT know how to turn it on in the first place...you wont know what buttons to press..and hence the telekinesis cant be used to turn it on.

Your arguing to keep the powers effects because its mechanics allow you to use it as a willpower substitute. This is clearly against the whole point of the power.

To the contrary, substituting attributes for WP is precisely and completely how the power was intended to work; it should be obvious that this is the entire point of the power.

And yes, Telekinesis is moving things with your mind. That said, substituting attributes with WP is perfectly reasonable. In the case of firing a gun, it's comparable to aiming your force bolts with WP: there is a far more direct interface between your thoughts and will, and what occurs. For example, you don't have to handle the weapon or deal with/adjust for recoil. Your telekinetic grip ensures that the gun remains steady and more or less does what you want it to do. The same goes with WS tests, throwing grenades, or lockpicking and the like. You remove a lack of dexterity or strength or handling from the equation; your willpower steps in instead, and substitutes for all this, and the object you're manipulate mimics your will as best and precisely as you're able to direct it with this power (a function of your WP).

As stated, it is perfectly reasonable and almost certainly RAI to allow this power to have your WP substitute for Strength, Agility, WS and BS Tests. Demolition is probably beyond the purview of the RAI (not that I argued otherwise) given that it is an Int skill.


OF COURSE force bolt is pointless compared to Force barrage...it works the same way but you get more of them? Duh?
The point of the homebrew was to fix that? If force bolt was the only way to increase base damage 1D10 + 7 (+ overbleed) it would have the potential to get past damage resistances where as the homebrew force barrage wouldnt (static at 1D10 + 7).
Sure Force barrage still takes the lead but only in the same way an autogun is better then a sniper rifle.

You're completely missing the point, namely that Force Bolt is not a good power, and you insinuated otherwise by stating that the psyker "still got Force barrage and force bolt?". Force Bolt is irrelevant and not worth any sort of mention; it is a completely pointless power because it's so patently god-awful, even with a nerfed FB. You may as well use a normal weapon, or resort to Push.

As for Force Barrage specifically, again the best solution is to replace its Overbleed effect with Force Bolt's so that it remains useful and scales without getting super ridiculous.

profitofrage
2011-03-25, 10:35 PM
you want to move and aim a gun? get telekinesis It has a wieght lifting system...you want to pull small pins out of grenades..pull triggers...pull levers..press buttons? put a key in a lock and turn it? That takes precision thats what the power is for.
If were going to talk about RAI..I seriously doubt that the purpose of the power was a nifty sub willpower here button. No it was meant to fill the gap that Telekinesis had..thats why they state in telekinesis that it cant preform precise functions (then gives examples of what they later say PT can be used for).

Its reasonable to assume that it can be replaced for an agility test to say pick a mans pocket...but your saying it should completly replace those attributes? thats where it gets broken.
It is clearly not intended by the decription that PT should be used to aim and fire weapons simply because your stat in willpower is higher. This is an abuse, one the party sniper will likely hate. PT doesnt have a wieght system a push system or anything of the sort...I think it would be fairly safe to assume that this is because it was never meant TO do those things. Thats what Telekinesis was for..thats why it has such rules in it.
Lets use there own analogy....You want to kill a man or crack a rock...you use a hammer. you want to cut tiny pictures in something? you want to make a precise incision? you use a scalpel.
Your basically fighting for PT to be both the hammer and the scalpel. This is in my opinion is rediculous powergaming. Since the POINT of this thread is to find ways to balance or otherwise 'fix' these problem powers with homebrew I think that taking away what MAKES this power 'the hammer' is what needs to be done.

Your argument for force barrage is also just..silly. Your argument is to let FBarrage just be better then Fbolt? rather then perhaps giving Fbolt a place in the system?
How does Fbarrage NOT scale...with overbleed it can fire MORE and MORE bolts. This increases the damage it can do with more overbleed...thats scaling. FBolt however scales by doing more raw damage with overbleed. The result is that against a toughness 8 - 10 opponant..FBarrage will do LESS damage per bolt. but FBolt will get in damage due to overpowering the resistance.
If i was to do anything it would be to allow Forcebolt have penetration with overbleed to further incourage its use in such a manor.

Surrealistik
2011-03-25, 10:56 PM
you want to move and aim a gun? get telekinesis It has a wieght lifting system...you want to pull small pins out of grenades..pull triggers...pull levers..press buttons? put a key in a lock and turn it? That takes precision thats what the power is for.
If were going to talk about RAI..I seriously doubt that the purpose of the power was a nifty sub willpower here button. No it was meant to fill the gap that Telekinesis had..thats why they state in telekinesis that it cant preform precise functions (then gives examples of what they later say PT can be used for).

Its reasonable to assume that it can be replaced for an agility test to say pick a mans pocket...but your saying it should completly replace those attributes? thats where it gets broken.
It is clearly not intended by the decription that PT should be used to aim and fire weapons simply because your stat in willpower is higher. This is an abuse, one the party sniper will likely hate. PT doesnt have a wieght system a push system or anything of the sort...I think it would be fairly safe to assume that this is because it was never meant TO do those things. Thats what Telekinesis was for..thats why it has such rules in it.
Lets use there own analogy....You want to kill a man or crack a rock...you use a hammer. you want to cut tiny pictures in something? you want to make a precise incision? you use a scalpel.
Your basically fighting for PT to be both the hammer and the scalpel. This is in my opinion is rediculous powergaming. Since the POINT of this thread is to find ways to balance or otherwise 'fix' these problem powers with homebrew I think that taking away what MAKES this power 'the hammer' is what needs to be done.

Moving and aiming a gun is quite clearly the purview of PT, as it is a precision activity; I don't see how you could in any way logically consider basic Telekinesis to encompass that.

Second, yes, it is clearly intended by the RAI to substitute for those attributes I've mentioned. It says explicitly to use your WP in place of any attribute score (which would include S/T when it comes to carrying items), and states that it's concerned with precision manipulation. I'm simply putting 2 and 2 together. It's not in any way a stretch to assert that a power intends you to substitute WP for other attributes when it explicitly says in that power to do so.

Lastly, I'm not fighting for PT to be both 'the hammer and the scalpel'. I'm arguing that PT should do what it was intended to do, and what you're paying for it to do with its high Threshold. Obviously it probably shouldn't allow you to heft more stuff than basic Telekinesis, but beyond that it has every right to substitute for S/Ag/BS/WS where any sort of precision manipulation is involved. Hell, it even says 'at its most basic' the power can 'direct small projectiles to deadly effect'. If you have a problem with that level of power relative to the Threshold, then you should increase the Threshold.


Your argument for force barrage is also just..silly. Your argument is to let FBarrage just be better then Fbolt? rather then perhaps giving Fbolt a place in the system?
How does Fbarrage NOT scale...with overbleed it can fire MORE and MORE bolts. This increases the damage it can do with more overbleed...thats scaling. FBolt however scales by doing more raw damage with overbleed. The result is that against a toughness 8 - 10 opponant..FBarrage will do LESS damage per bolt. but FBolt will get in damage due to overpowering the resistance.
If i was to do anything it would be to allow Forcebolt have penetration with overbleed to further incourage its use in such a manor.

Except that's not my argument.

If you don't give FB's damage a way to scale beyond WP Bonus, it eventually won't be able to do anything meaningful until you get Unnatural WP, since you'll ultimately end up facing opponents with armor/toughness high enough to basically render its damage output irrelevant compared to every alternative. My argument is to avoid making FB pointless, and only useful for mook killing. Furthermore, I never said FB didn't scale, I said that substituting its Overbleed with Force Bolt's was the best way to have it scale, rather than its current scaling method which is overpowered, or a scaling purely along the basis of bolt count which renders it ultimately worthless.

That said, Force Bolt obviously can use buffing, so it has a point vis a vis conventional weapons. Giving it additional damage and penetration with its overbleed is a good start.

profitofrage
2011-03-26, 06:22 AM
ok I think your definition of precision and mine are vastly different.
What i beieve precision means in terms of Telekenisis is its ability to grasp or manipulate on a smaller scale.
Telekinesis can move a rock...but if you put things near the rock..e.tc things nearbye it may be effected as well. This is because the power is meant to be forceful..literally tearing at reality to force things to move to your will.

Precision telekinesis on the other hand is about controled precise manipulation of objects. such as pulling the pin of a grenade or picking up a bullet (rather small). Now when i say it shouldnt substitute for tests...im saying that Where manipulating something isnt the only thing attributed to accomplishing the task it should NOT be done via just a willpower test.
I believe firing a gun, arming a bomb, using a data pad all part of that.
Frankly the idea of a psyker using PT in order to ignore BS is exactly that BS (though not standing for the same thing).
The idea is to balance the power...and while a psyker can fire an autogun with PT I dont believe this is possible.

Ounce again youve failed to understand the point of this thread.
Unnatural willpower is ascension..a rather broken book that takes balance throws it out the window..and when asked why slaps a large "because its DAMB AWESOME" sticker on your forehead. Ascension isnt meant to be balanced..its meant to hold true to 40K lore..which it does.

In DH...the standard firearm you can except a person to carry is 1D10 + 3..they will of course buy better ones.. 1D10 + 5. The assasin will no doubt level and be shooting 1D10 + 7 shots e.t.c but realistically...there are NO weapons in the game (dh) that fire 7+ shots..at 1D10 + 7 without getting into heavy weapons.
I think that scales just fine..when with overbleed you can fire more..and MORE bolts..all of which hit rather then an automatic weapon hitting soley on degrees of success.
FB becomes an automatic weapon for the psyker. automatic weapons are meant to hit many times and do medium - small damage.
The force bolt will with some fixing be the sniper round...hits ounce..but will do alot of damage in that ONE hit.
What your suggesting is to make force barrage...a force bolt..but a static number of them...this is silly as it makes the other power pointless ounce more..something I dont believe should be done considering the tiny number of powers available to psykers. Each power should have its use, looking over them that seems to be the theme UNTILL you get to FB and PT. There the only two that dont..and PT has some strong suggestion that it was intended to fit the pattern in its description.

Surrealistik
2011-03-26, 09:33 AM
ok I think your definition of precision and mine are vastly different.
What i beieve precision means in terms of Telekenisis is its ability to grasp or manipulate on a smaller scale.
Telekinesis can move a rock...but if you put things near the rock..e.tc things nearbye it may be effected as well. This is because the power is meant to be forceful..literally tearing at reality to force things to move to your will.

Precision telekinesis on the other hand is about controled precise manipulation of objects. such as pulling the pin of a grenade or picking up a bullet (rather small). Now when i say it shouldnt substitute for tests...im saying that Where manipulating something isnt the only thing attributed to accomplishing the task it should NOT be done via just a willpower test.
I believe firing a gun, arming a bomb, using a data pad all part of that.
Frankly the idea of a psyker using PT in order to ignore BS is exactly that BS (though not standing for the same thing).
The idea is to balance the power...and while a psyker can fire an autogun with PT I dont believe this is possible.

Manipulating a gun or sword in response to stimuli is the biggest thing that's going on when it comes to BS or WS tests. Precision Telekinesis covers this. Any Strength or Agility based-tests are also almost purely rooted in either physical strength or manual coordination. Precision Telekinesis also clearly covers this. That said, I agree that even this is probably too strong. If you want to balance the power, explicitly restrict it to BS/WS/S/Ag Tests, and instead of substituting, either have it average your WP and the characteristic to be substituted or have it apply a bonus to those skills that isn't subject to any modifier maximums (because there's an element of attribute substitution); that bonus can't ever exceed the difference between the 'substituted' characteristic and your WP. This bonus might scale with Overbleed.


Ounce again youve failed to understand the point of this thread.
Unnatural willpower is ascension..a rather broken book that takes balance throws it out the window..and when asked why slaps a large "because its DAMB AWESOME" sticker on your forehead. Ascension isnt meant to be balanced..its meant to hold true to 40K lore..which it does.

Wrong; completely and utterly. Further, I have never failed to understand the point of this thread in the first place. It's _precisely_ because I _do_ that I am pointing out that eliminating FB's damage incrementation makes it useless at the top ranks except for eliminating mooks until Unnatural Willpower is acquired, which is in Ascension, which is beyond the purview of this thread, which means your nerf saddles FB with serious issues; I'd have thought this obvious.


In DH...the standard firearm you can except a person to carry is 1D10 + 3..they will of course buy better ones.. 1D10 + 5. The assasin will no doubt level and be shooting 1D10 + 7 shots e.t.c but realistically...there are NO weapons in the game (dh) that fire 7+ shots..at 1D10 + 7 without getting into heavy weapons.
I think that scales just fine..when with overbleed you can fire more..and MORE bolts..all of which hit rather then an automatic weapon hitting soley on degrees of success.
FB becomes an automatic weapon for the psyker. automatic weapons are meant to hit many times and do medium - small damage.
The force bolt will with some fixing be the sniper round...hits ounce..but will do alot of damage in that ONE hit.
What your suggesting is to make force barrage...a force bolt..but a static number of them...this is silly as it makes the other power pointless ounce more..something I dont believe should be done considering the tiny number of powers available to psykers. Each power should have its use, looking over them that seems to be the theme UNTILL you get to FB and PT. There the only two that dont..and PT has some strong suggestion that it was intended to fit the pattern in its description.

Here's the problem: other players can use heavy weapons, meltas and the like which put Force Barrage to shame against the tougher enemies you'll be fighting in the higher ranks. This is unacceptable for such a high threshold power. FB should remain competitive with such weapons; it is the Psyker's auto/assault cannon, not an autogun or heavy stubber, and should be powered as such. Furthermore the # of bolts is _not_ static; it is proportionate to your WP Bonus. Hell, if you're still concerned about the nature or flavour of the power being too impacted, give it 2 Overbleeds: Overbleed 5 increases the damage of all projectiles by 1, Overbleed 10 increases the # of projectiles by 1. In the meanwhile, make it dodgeable.

Buffing Force Bolt to be a sniper round is fine. Debuffing Force Barrage to be useless at the higher ranks (as removing any sort of damage scaling accomplishes) is not.

profitofrage
2011-03-26, 10:10 AM
The only reason PT covers the things your saying it covers is because of the mechanics behind the power I am saying shouldnt be there. I am referring to the description..style...and context for which the power is in.
I personally do not believe that PT should be a "all round better" version of telekinesis...I think it should be another TYPE of it. One that has its own limitations and uses..rather then doing everything thats what i believet he word balanced means. on top of which I believe is the same style and Intention the authors had for all the other psychic powers.

FBarrage DOES scale, every time they increase in willpower bonus..the shot does more raw damage. When they overbleed..they get MORE bolts.
7 bolts each ad 1D10 +7 is huge amounts of damage for a level 6 psyker. This isnt mook killing..this is the right amount of damage one should aim to dish out when fighting "horde" style enemies at that level...not to mention they WILL fire and ppotentially hit with any and ALL bolts they fire.
Someone firing an assaultcannon? needs 7 degrees of success before they can hit that many enemies. with BS e.t.c as it is GOOD LUCK getting this witout aiming for a round or investing soley in BS.
The issue is you want FBarrage to do ludicrous amounts of damage, My aim is to use it as crowd control, anti swarm weapon. The raw damage weapon for a psyker would be Force Bolt...perhaps worked to give penetration with overbleed to further encourage that.

This conversation between us is clearly going nowhere. You believe that powers should overshadow and replace others. be easily abused or used for completly different purposes that i believe the power was intended for. Its clearly a case of vastly different opinions. It would be best if we moved on to another power that may require attention.

Surrealistik
2011-03-26, 10:23 AM
The only reason PT covers the things your saying it covers is because of the mechanics behind the power I am saying shouldnt be there. I am referring to the description..style...and context for which the power is in.
I personally do not believe that PT should be a "all round better" version of telekinesis...I think it should be another TYPE of it. One that has its own limitations and uses..rather then doing everything thats what i believet he word balanced means. on top of which I believe is the same style and Intention the authors had for all the other psychic powers.

It should certainly be an all-round better power than basic Telekinesis since it has a higher threshold. More powerful effects have higher Thresholds; this is a basic design premise. Should basic Telekinesis have a niche? Absolutely. Its niche should probably be to heft around heavy things, not very impressive but at least useful, and consistent with its low Threshold.



FBarrage DOES scale, every time they increase in willpower bonus..the shot does more raw damage. When they overbleed..they get MORE bolts.
7 bolts each ad 1D10 +7 is huge amounts of damage for a level 6 psyker. This isnt mook killing..this is the right amount of damage one should aim to dish out when fighting "horde" style enemies at that level...not to mention they WILL fire and ppotentially hit with any and ALL bolts they fire.
Someone firing an assaultcannon? needs 7 degrees of success before they can hit that many enemies. with BS e.t.c as it is GOOD LUCK getting this witout aiming for a round or investing soley in BS.
The issue is you want FBarrage to do ludicrous amounts of damage, My aim is to use it as crowd control, anti swarm weapon. The raw damage weapon for a psyker would be Force Bolt...perhaps worked to give penetration with overbleed to further encourage that.

And this is the problem: your raw damage means nothing against heavily armoured, high toughness opponents which are common in the higher ranks. Again, increasing bolt incrementation to Overbleed 10 and allowing the bolts to be dodgable puts it roughly on the level of the top tier heavy weapons, which is where it should be. I understand you want to give Force Bolt a niche, and that's fine; a lower threshold combined with damage and penetration Overbleed enhancements will accomplish that without making a mockery of Force Barrage.


This conversation between us is clearly going nowhere. You believe that powers should overshadow and replace others. be easily abused or used for completly different purposes that i believe the power was intended for. Its clearly a case of vastly different opinions. It would be best if we moved on to another power that may require attention.

To the contrary, I believe key powers and elements of a career shouldn't be nerfed to death, or given ridiculously overspecific niches, as you seem to be recommending. The solution is to apply what nerfs are necessary, which I have suggested for both Force Barrage and PT, and to empower where necessary, as in the case of Force Bolt.

profitofrage
2011-03-26, 10:30 AM
If anything Id lesson PT's threshold before I allowed it capabale of things things you want it to do.


Its MEANT to mean nothing against armored opponants...Thats what Force BOLT is for (will be made for). If your fighting BOTH heavily armored and numerous opponants..then thats when you start working with a PARTY of players who can help take on the load. The damage Force barrage DOES is still well within the crowd control spectrum, you get an enemy that level 6 players are meant to fight, one thats encountered on mass and one thats mean to be Big tough and few. And actually compare there resistances to the amount of damage my modified Force barrage would do to them both. I assue you it will do very well on the mass..and average - low on the High damage. Then compare it to a Force BOLT on the mass (useless) then on the tough guy (massive damage). This i believe should be the point.

Surrealistik
2011-03-26, 10:38 AM
If anything Id lesson PT's threshold before I allowed it capabale of things things you want it to do.

So increase it and allow it to remain useful. Personally I like the limitations I imposed on it more.


Its MEANT to mean nothing against armored opponants...Thats what Force BOLT is for (will be made for). If your fighting BOTH heavily armored and numerous opponants..then thats when you start working with a PARTY of players who can help take on the load. The damage Force barrage DOES is still well within the crowd control spectrum, you get an enemy that level 6 players are meant to fight, one thats encountered on mass and one thats mean to be Big tough and few. And actually compare there resistances to the amount of damage my modified Force barrage would do to them both. I assue you it will do very well on the mass..and average - low on the High damage. Then compare it to a Force BOLT on the mass (useless) then on the tough guy (massive damage). This i believe should be the point.

No, it's not meant to 'mean nothing' against armored opponents; that's entirely your opinion. Given its existing mechanics, it's obviously meant to be the Psyker's answer to the Autocannon and other super-heavy fully automatic weaponry.

Second yes, Force Bolt should have a niche versus the _most_ heavily armoured opponents, and it would be with sufficient Overbleed scaling of damage and penetration: something like WP bonus to its damage and penetration per Overbleed 10.

profitofrage
2011-03-26, 10:44 AM
My nerfed forcebarrage would have a theoretical 1D10 + 7 damage hit..x 7 bolts + the potential of more with overbleed. Unless the thing had 12 + damage resistance total...and came in packs of 5+ That Force barrage could still do some nasty damage. And if this situation WAS occuring...well I doubt its an encounter the psyker is meant to be able to take on by himself.

as for PT, your entitled for your opinion. Just as I am mine. I personally would rather see it used for precise manipulation then wielding guns to avoid BS tests.


as for Force bolt its current mechanics is that its 1D10 + willpower bonus with overbleed increasing damage by 1.
perhaps double this and also give it penetration with overbleed equal to your willpower bonus?

Surrealistik
2011-03-26, 11:28 AM
My nerfed forcebarrage would have a theoretical 1D10 + 7 damage hit..x 7 bolts + the potential of more with overbleed. Unless the thing had 12 + damage resistance total...and came in packs of 5+ That Force barrage could still do some nasty damage. And if this situation WAS occuring...well I doubt its an encounter the psyker is meant to be able to take on by himself.

It would only need 10 net damage resistance or so total before your output became basically laughable relative to the alternatives at that level after your miss chance, and 10+ damage resistance is fairly common at higher ranks.


as for Force bolt its current mechanics is that its 1D10 + willpower bonus with overbleed increasing damage by 1.
perhaps double this and also give it penetration with overbleed equal to your willpower bonus?

I think scaling the damage and pen with WP but increasing it to Overbleed 10 is best.

profitofrage
2011-03-26, 11:48 AM
Im afraid i just dont see it. even at damage resistance 10 your still doing on average 3.5 wounds per bolt...with 7+ bolts. thats 25 wounds....more then enough to down most enemies.

Surrealistik
2011-03-26, 11:57 PM
Im afraid i just dont see it. even at damage resistance 10 your still doing on average 3.5 wounds per bolt...with 7+ bolts. thats 25 wounds....more then enough to down most enemies.

7 + 5.5 = 12.5
12.5 - 10 = 2.5
2.5 * 7 = 17.5
17.5 * 0.7 (hit chance) = 12.25

12.25 damage is pitiful given the alternatives.

Destro_Yersul
2011-03-27, 12:43 AM
The power of FB seems to me about on par with a heavy stubber. A heavy stubber which doesn't need to be braced, or reloaded, and does higher damage against lower armoured targets. It doesn't need to be made better. You need to lower your expectations.

Surrealistik
2011-03-27, 12:54 AM
Heavy Stubbers need to be reloaded?

And I don't think expectations need to be lowered for a high threshold top tier psyker damage power. It needs to not easily and grossly exceed Autocannon damage output, but it should be competitive with it at high ranks.

profitofrage
2011-03-27, 07:53 AM
Why should Force barrage..be better or competitive with an assault cannon...or autocannon..a weapon that on average requires two people to wield, brace and be fired full auto?
This can be powered up with overbleed...doesnt hinder the psyker at all in terms of wieght, can be used in any kind of space...has maximum output everytime (i.e all bolts will be fired and have a potential to hit as opposed to BS tests that fire on average MAYBE 3-5 shots due to degrees of success.)

Heavy weapons are POWERFUL..because they have to be..the average acolyte WONT be packing heavy weapons everywhere. There might be ONE guy with an assault cannon..and its a safe bet thats ALL he has...since he would be unable to carry much else considering the weight of the weapon and its ammo. and he would NEED a backpack to carry that ammo in.

Why should the psyker have a power comparable to something commonly found mounted on dreadnaughts? a weapon the acolytes MIGHT be wielding at the end of there carreer paths...or as a treat from the GM.
and lets not forget that there is the potential that the psyker can at those same levels..pick one up as well.

Destro_Yersul
2011-03-27, 10:14 AM
Heavy Stubbers need to be reloaded?

And I don't think expectations need to be lowered for a high threshold top tier psyker damage power. It needs to not easily and grossly exceed Autocannon damage output, but it should be competitive with it at high ranks.

Eventually, yes. You fail to address the other points.

It should not be competetive with an autocannon. That would make it even more broken than it already is.

Surrealistik
2011-03-27, 12:45 PM
Eventually, yes. You fail to address the other points.

It should not be competetive with an autocannon. That would make it even more broken than it already is.

Practically no.

Currently, Force Barrage is far better than an autocannon; I've already done the math that clearly proves this.

And what other points? It doesn't have to be braced? Force Barrage is a full round action that requires beating a relatively high Threshold. It also requires a talent to get, and is completely and totally inaccessible until a latter rank (and generally isn't practical because of the Psi Dice you need to roll until you have Favoured of the Warp, yet another talent). It's perfectly fair being at Autocannon levels of power at the top Psyker ranks.



Why should Force barrage..be better or competitive with an assault cannon...or autocannon..a weapon that on average requires two people to wield, brace and be fired full auto?

It doesn't actually require two people as per the RAW.

Why should it be better? See above.


This can be powered up with overbleed...doesnt hinder the psyker at all in terms of wieght, can be used in any kind of space...has maximum output everytime (i.e all bolts will be fired and have a potential to hit as opposed to BS tests that fire on average MAYBE 3-5 shots due to degrees of success.)

Autocannon at 60 BS + 10 for short range (you better believe your target will be in this weapon's short range 99% of the time) + 20 for full auto, and I'm not even counting other bonuses (like +5 from certain Homeworlds/Packages, +3 from Divinations, +10 from targeters, etc...). On average you will hit with every last one of your 5 shots.


Why should the psyker have a power comparable to something commonly found mounted on dreadnaughts? a weapon the acolytes MIGHT be wielding at the end of there carreer paths...or as a treat from the GM.
and lets not forget that there is the potential that the psyker can at those same levels..pick one up as well.

Because a Psyker at high ranks can wield power comparable to something mounted on a dreadnought fluffwise to start. Also, substitute 'might' with probably. Psykers may be able to use heavy weapons as well, but that doesn't matter too much since action economy renders their use mutually exclusive.

Destro_Yersul
2011-03-27, 09:36 PM
You can get it at rank 4, and even with a WP bonus of 60, cast it pretty much all the time if you use all the dice. You also get it for free, and can use it without bracing. If you want to avoid using it until you get Favoured of the Warp, that's your choice, not a point against it. You need a talent to use a heavy weapon without penalties, so that's about even too, and it is NOT on par with an autocannon. Not even close. An autocannon does 4d10+5 per shot. on average, 27 (or so) per shot, with pen 4. But it can hit up to five times, and assuming an average roll of 50 and BS of the same, it's usually going to get four hits and inflict 108 damage. You take off the soak of, let's say 6 because it punches through armour pretty well, and that's still 84 damage.

But that's ok. It's a heavy weapon designed to destroy light to medium vehicles, and make paste out of infantry. It should be able to do that. A psyker at rank 4 should not. As far as I'm concerned, not even one at rank 8 should be able to do that.

Surrealistik
2011-03-27, 09:57 PM
You can get it at rank 4, and even with a WP bonus of 60, cast it pretty much all the time if you use all the dice. You also get it for free, and can use it without bracing. If you want to avoid using it until you get Favoured of the Warp, that's your choice, not a point against it. You need a talent to use a heavy weapon without penalties, so that's about even too,

The 'balancing' risk factor of Psychic Phenomena and Perils is most certainly a point against a high threshold power like Force Barrage, especially one that needs Overbleed to prove truly abusive; are you kidding? Favoured of the Warp is basically mandatory if you really want to use this power on a practical basis.


and it is NOT on par with an autocannon. Not even close. An autocannon does 4d10+5 per shot. on average, 27 (or so) per shot, with pen 4. But it can hit up to five times, and assuming an average roll of 50 and BS of the same, it's usually going to get four hits and inflict 108 damage. You take off the soak of, let's say 6 because it punches through armour pretty well, and that's still 84 damage.

But that's ok. It's a heavy weapon designed to destroy light to medium vehicles, and make paste out of infantry. It should be able to do that. A psyker at rank 4 should not. As far as I'm concerned, not even one at rank 8 should be able to do that.

Incorrect:


1d10+7 x 7 + Overbleed.

Psychic Rating 4 + WP 7 + Power Well 2x + Discipline Focus:

5.5 x 4 = 15 + 7 = 22 + 2 = 24 + 2 = 31.5 (2 Overbleed)

Also, because the power functions as per Force Bolt, we add its Overbleed as well, each bolt doing +1 damage.

so:

(5.5+9) x 9 x 0.7 = 91.35 damage; silent and undodgable. If you use the +20 WP enhancing drug (a fair assumption since you're assuming a huge and expensive weapon):

(5.5+11) x 11 x 0.9 = 163.35 average damage; silent and undodgable.

Autocannon (BS 60 base assumed +20 Full auto):

27 (damage per bullet) x 1 (hits) x 0.1 (chance of 1 hit) = 2.7 average damage.
27 x 2 x 0.1 = 5.4
27 x 3 x 0.1 = 8.1
27 x 4 x 0.1 = 10.8
27 x 5 x 0.4 = 54

81 total.

But wait! It can be dodged!

I think at this point we can safely assume a Dodge score of 50 for most opponents:

-27 (damage negated per dodge) x 1 (bullets dodged) x 0.1 (chance of 1 dodge) = -2.7
-27 x 2 x 0.1 = -5.4
-27 x 3 x 0.1 = -8.1
-27 x 4 x 0.1 = -10.8
-27 x 5 x 0.1 = -13.5

= -40.5 damage = 81 - 40.5 = 40.5

Short Range? Average damage is increased by 13.5:

54 average damage.

Even if you account for armour, Force Barrage obviously comes out way ahead save in the case of the most armoured enemies.

Let's also not forget that Autocannons need time to deploy, are huge, heavy, conspicuous and obvious weapons (with equally heavy/bulky ammo), and are thus highly situational. Mind Bullets are not nearly as restrictive.

Destro_Yersul
2011-03-27, 10:17 PM
Ah, I see. You think Force Bolt's overbleed should apply as well.

No.

Just no.

I feel that is an incorrect interpretation of how that power works, and used base damage. I also assumed rank 4, WP bonus 6, Psy rating 3 because that's the earliest you can get the power. I also wouldn't allow the WP enhancing drug, because that's not in a DH supplement as far as I'm aware. I also allow Force Bolt to be dodged.

So really, it's not that I'm wrong. It's that your math uses assumptions that would not be true, were I running the game.

Surrealistik
2011-03-27, 10:18 PM
Ah, I see. You think Force Bolt's overbleed should apply as well.

No.

Just no.

I feel that is an incorrect interpretation of how that power works, and used base damage. I also assumed rank 4, WP bonus 6, Psy rating 3 because that's the earliest you can get the power. I also wouldn't allow the WP enhancing drug, because that's not in a DH supplement as far as I'm aware. I also allow Force Bolt to be dodged.

So really, it's not that I'm wrong. It's that your math uses assumptions that would not be true, were I running the game.

In otherwords, you're house ruling it into inferiority. Okay, but by the RAW, it is substantially better than the Autocannon.

Also note that this is only assuming Psi 4.

Ranos
2011-03-27, 10:23 PM
Isn't this whole thread supposed to be about houserules ?

Surrealistik
2011-03-27, 10:29 PM
Yes, but he's asserting that the Autocannon is superior to the base, RAW Force Barrage.

Anyways, I like my FB fix: make it dodgable, give it Overbleed 5 equivalent to Force Bolt's existing Overbleed, and Overbleed 10 equal to its current Overbleed.

Destro_Yersul
2011-03-27, 10:36 PM
Actually, I'm just interpreting the RAW differently, and assuming that you don't have access to things from seperate games.

Surrealistik
2011-03-27, 10:42 PM
There's nothing to 'interpret' here. The rules are quite clear: Force Barrage does not count as an attack that can be dodged. It also features Force Bolt's mechanics in their entirety; it is clearly not selective as to which parts of the power's entry it features (or does not).

Further, even if you ignored the WP boosting drug (the only thing there is a solid RAW argument for), Force Barrage is still objectively better in the vast majority of cases.

Ranos
2011-03-27, 11:00 PM
If the drug you're thinking of is White Void, there's no argument to be made. DH characters cannot get RT specific equipment. It doesn't even have a price in Thrones.

I do like Surrealistik's fix best though. Nerfing the power into uselessness is not really a solution.

Surrealistik
2011-03-27, 11:07 PM
If the drug you're thinking of is White Void, there's no argument to be made. DH characters cannot get RT specific equipment. It doesn't even have a price in Thrones.

Yep, that's why I said it was the only interpretation that had a strong RAW basis.

Destro_Yersul
2011-03-27, 11:17 PM
It features the mechanics in its entirety, yes. But Force Barrage itself clearly has only one overbleed entry. Extra bolts. And the overbleed entry in the power format section says 'if the power has any additional effects for exceeding the threshold, they are listed here.'

If you choose to take 'this power functions as force bolt except it creates more bolts' to include 'this power gets two overbleeds despite difference in threshold and a lack of mention anywhere else in the book that this is possible,' then I doubt your reasoning.

As for dodging...

"Once a hit is scored, but before damage is rolled, you can try to dodge if you were aware of the attack."

Force Barrage rolls to hit. Therefore, it can be dodged. Before you try to claim that the power can't be detected and therefore nobody is aware of it because the bolts are invisible, it says that exactly nowhere.

You believe my interpretation is wrong. I believe yours is wrong. That's the trouble with RAW. Everything is subject to interpretation, because often things come up that the developers clearly didn't expect anyone to argue for and didn't clarify. I will not concede this point unless you can come up with word of god stating your interpretation is correct.

Ranos
2011-03-27, 11:27 PM
Psychic powers do not fall under melee or ranged attacks. They count as "Focus power". They do not gain the benefit of range modifiers, no combat modifiers whatsoever, and they cannot be dodged unless the power itself says so.

As for the overbleed, Surrealistik made his argument, and it is inarguably RAW, if maybe not RAI.


Now, what do you think of his fix ?
EDIT : Oh, looks like you already discussed the fix above. Isn't this whole thing turning in circles a bit though ?

Destro_Yersul
2011-03-27, 11:31 PM
I think his 'fix' makes the power actually better than it's supposed to be.

Focus Power is under Miscellaneous because not all powers are attack powers. There are plenty of utility powers that cannot cause damage. Force Barrage rolls to hit, and does damage. It is clearly an attack.

As I said, unless he gets word of god saying the power works like he thinks it does, I'm not backing down on this.

Ranos
2011-03-27, 11:34 PM
I don't see a roll to hit. I see a willpower test.
Would you give a +30 to that willpower test at point blank range ?

Surrealistik
2011-03-27, 11:40 PM
I think his 'fix' makes the power actually better than it's supposed to be.

Focus Power is under Miscellaneous because not all powers are attack powers. There are plenty of utility powers that cannot cause damage. Force Barrage rolls to hit, and does damage. It is clearly an attack.

As I said, unless he gets word of god saying the power works like he thinks it does, I'm not backing down on this.

You're more than welcome to be wrong then.

The meaning of 'Functions as Force Bolt' is quite blatant, clear and obvious, and includes its Overbleed which is an indivisible part of the power.

Further, Focus Power as Ranos as said doesn't technically feature as an attack. Psychic Powers do _not_ technically count as a ranged or melee attack unless otherwise explicitly noted. Ranged attacks are defined on page 195, and I quote: "Ranged attacks-lasguns, scatterguns, thrown weapons, etc.- are resolved in the same way as melee attacks except that you Test Ballistic Skill instead of Weapon Skill."

Force Barrage does not Test Ballistic Skill, therefore it is not possibly dodgable as per the RAW, or subject to cover and the like. Your interpretation is simply wrong.

Ranos
2011-03-27, 11:45 PM
Huh. That reminds me that if Precision Telekinesis uses Willpower, a gun fired with it technically can't be dodged either. This needs to be fixed.

Surrealistik
2011-03-27, 11:45 PM
Huh. That reminds me that if Precision Telekinesis uses Willpower, a gun fired with it technically can't be dodged either. This needs to be fixed.

Lol, you're right; that's hilarious.

Destro_Yersul
2011-03-27, 11:47 PM
Like I said. Word of God. Until you get that, you're wrong and I'm right and there's nothing you can do to make me admit otherwise, because the way I read it makes infinitely more sense.

Ranos
2011-03-27, 11:48 PM
Here's word of god, then.



You may use the Dodge skill once per round to negate a successful hand-to-hand or ranged attack




To make a melee attack with a handheld weapon, you must be engaged with your target. Test Weapon Skill. When making a ranged attack, you test Ballistic Skill.




Test Willpower to hit the target.

Surrealistik
2011-03-27, 11:54 PM
I don't think there's any point Ranos, as he's clearly descended into 'neener neener' territory. Let him use his house rules; he can't possibly do worse than the actual RAW.

Destro_Yersul
2011-03-27, 11:56 PM
Actually, I've decided to get word of god for you. Just sent a question to Fantasy Flight Games' rules department. Once they get back to me, I'll be sure to share the answer with you whatever way it goes. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. If you're wrong, you're wrong. Either way, we'll have a definitive answer one way or another and we can go back to debating houserules, yes?

Ranos
2011-03-27, 11:58 PM
Well, fair enough.


On the subject of houserules, I'm not sure trying to rebalance each and every power one by one is the way to go, unless we want to spend the next few years on it. Can't we do something about the psyker himself ? Maybe heavily restrict the number of Discipline powers he gets ? He'll still be broken, but at least he'll be a one-trick pony.


Something like this, maybe :
Psy rating doesn't give you any powers anymore. The only way to get them is with Minor power and Major power advances.
You get access to one Minor power advance each rank, and one Major power advance each rank from the rank you get psy rating 4 (6-8 for the savant path, 5-8 for the scholar path).
At psy rating 4, you get to choose a Discipline. You will not be able to choose powers from any other discipline, ever.
Discipline focus is gone. Power well only comes up on the scholar path, late game, and at doubled cost.
Instead of its current effect, invocation increases your effective psy-rating by 1 for the next power you cast, assuming you cast it before the end of next turn. It increases it by 1 more for every 3 degrees of success.

Obviously, this isn't something I've really thought through in detail. Still, any thoughts ?

Sarco_Phage
2011-03-28, 12:23 AM
But that's ok. It's a heavy weapon designed to destroy light to medium vehicles, and make paste out of infantry. It should be able to do that. A psyker at rank 4 should not. As far as I'm concerned, not even one at rank 8 should be able to do that.

Why not? One of the canon DH antagonists is an Alpha-psyker capable of killing a Titan with her pyrokinesis, fluff-wise. You can complain about game balance all you want, but psykers should just be flat out better than any other option.

WoTC's horrid emphasis on balance has generally spoiled us gamers as a community.

Ranos
2011-03-28, 12:49 AM
Why not? One of the canon DH antagonists is an Alpha-psyker capable of killing a Titan with her pyrokinesis, fluff-wise. You can complain about game balance all you want, but psykers should just be flat out better than any other option.

WoTC's horrid emphasis on balance has generally spoiled us gamers as a community.

The Burning Princess is an Ascension antagonist. This thread is about base DH, alpha psykers are not really the norm.

Sarco_Phage
2011-03-28, 12:53 AM
The Burning Princess is an Ascension antagonist. This thread is about base DH, alpha psykers are not really the norm.

Actually, she showed up in one of the first Chaos books for DH. They did, however, give her a colour illustration in Ascension.

The point is that psykers tell reality to go **** itself on a regular basis (and often are ****ed in return). Expecting them to be "balanced" with the more mundane weaponry and capabilities of other characters is something I'd expect out of DnD, not 40k.

Destro_Yersul
2011-03-28, 12:54 AM
Yeah, Alpha psykers are horribly rare and unstable. The Psyker career in base DH does not go up to that level. High Delta/Low Gamma at the top ends, really. Though Sorcery provides some fun options for even more ludicrously powerful stuff.

profitofrage
2011-03-28, 12:57 AM
In fact there extremly rare.

I seriously doubt removing the force bolts overbleed effect from Force Barrage nerfs it into unusablness. I think it gives it its intended niche as a medium ranged crowd control psychic power.
On the fly 1D10+7 x 7 damage potential can barely be matched by other players unless they invest the HUGE amount of effort required of obtaining, setting up and hitting multiple times with a heavy weapon. Not to mention the fact that finding actual situations one could wield an autocannon since there so unweildy and heavy.
What you need to remember is a psyker essentially is given a can never be disarmed...+70 BS (because EACH shot ALWAYS hits unless dodged) never runs out of ammo and can be used anywhere anytime 1D10 + 7 gun...that has a potential of hitting MORE and MORE fairly easily.
How is this useless? If anything its an extremly powerful weapon..just not AS powerful as its broken non homebrew version.

What we also need to remember...is DH psykers are NOT meant to be alpha level...or even Beta.
There meant to be the psykers you see lead around in an imperial guard army.
Or savants used as daemonic radar.
Yes they are powerful..psykers are...but there NOT meant to be as powerful as you all think they should be. Yes there ARE psykers that powerful...but DH psykers arnt really meant to be there yet. Those who are are unreliable..and often have explosives wired to them in various fashoins.

Ranos
2011-03-28, 12:58 AM
Actually, she showed up in one of the first Chaos books for DH. They did, however, give her a colour illustration in Ascension.

The point is that psykers tell reality to go **** itself on a regular basis (and often are ****ed in return). Expecting them to be "balanced" with the more mundane weaponry and capabilities of other characters is something I'd expect out of DnD, not 40k.
This is that "wizards are supposed to be more powerful" argument all over again, isn't it ?
If psykers really are supposed to be more powerful, then they should be banned in DH and only allowed in Ascension, Deathwatch, Rogue Trader and such. If you use a level system, the assumption is that two characters of same rank should be just as good in their specialties.

I'm not convinced that Imperial Psykers that can't chew through Titans don't exist in the fluff though.

Sarco_Phage
2011-03-28, 01:03 AM
This is that "wizards are supposed to be more powerful" argument all over again, isn't it ?
If psykers really are supposed to be more powerful, then they should be banned in DH and only allowed in Ascension, Deathwatch, Rogue Trader and such. If you use a level system, the assumption is that two characters of same rank should be just as good in their specialties.

Again, this is something you're getting from WoTC's design philosophy.

Why should they be banned? Are your players in competition or something? Is there some kind of tournament they are engaged in, where they are directly competing against each other?

No?

Then I fail to see the logic behind this impulse.

profitofrage
2011-03-28, 01:03 AM
Psykers range from soldier Jim always being right when he says "I have a bad feeling about this". To said Titan Chewing example.
DH however is meant to be in the threshold where psykers are extremly useful, but weak enough to be controlled and monitored. Sending Psykers to battle is one thing...sending them in potentially corrupting situations is ASKING for trouble...Inquisitors know this better then anyone. So those who travel with them are either weak and in control. Or SO powerful they need not worry. The later being in ascension the former the First level of a DH psyker.

Sarco_Phage
2011-03-28, 01:06 AM
Considering this is an acolyte cell with a psyker member, at least one of the acolytes should be ready to put the psyker down at any time.

profitofrage
2011-03-28, 01:07 AM
There is an exception however....Radical Inquisitors who know that psykers are there most powerful when NOT in control. Thus will let there psykers get away with much much more.
However in terms of the setting...psykers should be encouraged (with DEATH) to avoid phenomina or otherwise going nuts with powers.

Destro_Yersul
2011-03-28, 08:38 PM
Got a partial answer. I took a screenshot, censored my name and email address in paint, and uploaded it. So we still don't know if it can be dodged, but we do know Force Barrage, by Word of God, does not add additional damage.

Spoilered for size:
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n199/ArtemistheHunter/Proof.png?t=1301362590

profitofrage
2011-03-29, 12:49 AM
Im glad we now have a difinitive answer. Whats more is the power now leads MUCH less nerfing and we can clearly see what the intention of the power was at the start.
My only hope is that such an email prompts them to include that in the next errata.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-08, 09:04 AM
I found something else in the Errata. The threshold for Seal Wounds got doubled, to 20.

Surrealistik
2011-04-08, 09:58 AM
I've known about that for awhile now; it is still far too strong a power.

But that said, have you found out whether Force Barrage can be dodged (it can't)?

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-08, 10:57 AM
They never gave me an answer to that half of the question. Nobody else was responding here, so I didn't bother asking again. You're free to, though, if you like.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-09, 09:46 AM
Found something else in the errata. This ought to clear up any further debate on the matter.

"Making a Focus Power action is the psychic equivalent of a Standard Attack Action, and counts as such for purposes of determining what else a psyker can do in a round. Therefore, a psyker who uses a Half Action power cannot make another Half Action Standard Attack on the same round. A Psyker may manifest only one ability per round with the exception of the Resist Possession power. A Psyker is required to roll at least one die to manifest an ability."

Using the Focus Power action is the Equivalent of a Standard Attack. QED, Psychic Powers can be dodged.

Surrealistik
2011-04-09, 10:48 AM
Found something else in the errata. This ought to clear up any further debate on the matter.

"Making a Focus Power action is the psychic equivalent of a Standard Attack Action, and counts as such for purposes of determining what else a psyker can do in a round. Therefore, a psyker who uses a Half Action power cannot make another Half Action Standard Attack on the same round. A Psyker may manifest only one ability per round with the exception of the Resist Possession power. A Psyker is required to roll at least one die to manifest an ability."

Using the Focus Power action is the Equivalent of a Standard Attack. QED, Psychic Powers can be dodged.

Except that Dodge (DH Rulebook, Pg. 193) explicitly only allows you to Dodge Ranged Attacks (which explicitly are attacks that test Ballistic Skill, DH Rulebook, Pg. 194, 195) or Melee Attacks (which explicitly are attacks that test Weapon Skill, DH Rulebook, Pg. 194), and Psionic Powers are classified as neither unless these skills are tested; the logic is very straightforward, clear and simple, with no wiggle room for (mis)interpretation. QED and all that.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-09, 11:15 AM
I believe you'll find that the text for dodge mentions Ballistic Skill and Weapon Skill precisely nowhere. It says that attacks from melee and range can be dodged, and the only requirement is that there be a roll to hit. Once a hit is scored, but before damage is rolled, you may attempt to dodge. Psychic powers can attack from both melee and ranged.

Psychic powers count as a standard attack.

Standard attacks can be dodged.

Since the original argument, a few posts, was that the Focus Power action was not an attack, and only attacks could be dodged, I thought this should take care of that. The errata says Focus Power counts as an attack, even if the power in question is not specifically an attack. However, powers which do not roll to hit cannot be dodged because dodge requires a roll to hit.

I've sent off another question to Fantasy Flight. Once I get the answer, that ought to clear it up for good.

EDIT: Oh, and here's another one to argue over while we wait. Precision Telekinesis. I didn't touch on this one much before because I was busy with Force Barrage, but I'll do it now. The power states that if an action would involve a Characteristic Test, you use WP instead of the given characteristic.

This, however, does not mean that you substitute WP on any test you make using the power. I'll give you attacks, since you're substituting for Weapon Skill or Ballistic Skill, both of which are characteristics. I can see you're right on that front, at least. However, If you were to use it to, say, disarm a bomb using Demolitions, you would test based on Intelligence.

Why? Because that is a Skill Test, which is defined as being seperate from a Characteristic Test.

Surrealistik
2011-04-09, 01:21 PM
I believe you'll find that the text for dodge mentions Ballistic Skill and Weapon Skill precisely nowhere. It says that attacks from melee and range can be dodged, and the only requirement is that there be a roll to hit. Once a hit is scored, but before damage is rolled, you may attempt to dodge. Psychic powers can attack from both melee and ranged.

Psychic powers count as a standard attack.

Standard attacks can be dodged.

Since the original argument, a few posts, was that the Focus Power action was not an attack, and only attacks could be dodged, I thought this should take care of that. The errata says Focus Power counts as an attack, even if the power in question is not specifically an attack. However, powers which do not roll to hit cannot be dodged because dodge requires a roll to hit.

A couple of things.

First of all, the original argument certainly featured the fact that Dodge only allows you to negate ranged and melee attacks, and that Psychic Powers count as neither.

Second, nothing says that 'Standard attacks' can be Dodged. Dodge only permits you to use it against melee and ranged attacks specifically. This is the clause verbatim: "You may Dodge both melee and ranged attacks."

Further, melee attacks are defined as attacks that make use of a Weapon Skill test, and ranged attacks are defined as attacks that make use of a Ballistic Skill test. A Psychic Power normally features neither, and therefore counts as neither, and thus cannot be dodged. Simple, straightforward, clear as crystal. There is simply no room for dispute here.


Concerning PT and Skills yes, that's true, though it obviously remains a ridiculously strong and versatile power.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-09, 06:42 PM
Well, I got my answer from Fantasy Flight.

"It's up to the GM"

Not even the game designers have a hard and fast rule for it, though the one who answered said than in his games, he allows them to be dodged. So really, we're both wrong.

Surrealistik
2011-04-09, 06:44 PM
Well, I got my answer from Fantasy Flight.

"It's up to the GM"

Not even the game designers have a hard and fast rule for it, though the one who answered said than in his games, he allows them to be dodged. So really, we're both wrong.

Wow, seriously? That's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard; they don't even have a definitive answer? Shouldn't they be publishing/updating an errata in that case?

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-09, 06:48 PM
Yep. Here, I'll copy/paste.


"Ultimately it is up to the GM. In my campaigns I have ruled that you can, indeed, dodge a psychic attack. Your GM is free to rule differently, however. The real key here is the balance of your campaign, and the decision of the GM on how it should function in his campaign to aid in the narrative."

So in mine, I'd go the way this guy did and let them be dodged. You might do differently. And either way would be right.

Surrealistik
2011-04-09, 06:52 PM
That's unbelievably lazy. Why not just tell the DM to rule 0 everything and not bother with a defined ruleset? They should rule one way or another.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-09, 07:02 PM
I guess most things are easier to define? There's a huge variety in what psychic powers can do as opposed to a gun. Or a sword.

Still, bit surprised they didn't have a definitive answer.

Sarco_Phage
2011-04-09, 07:07 PM
That's unbelievably lazy. Why not just tell the DM to rule 0 everything and not bother with a defined ruleset? They should rule one way or another.

OR, they could let you rule one way or the other, like they just did. Unless they errata it there's no real official stand, I suppose.

All he really did was encourage Destro Yersul to find a solution that fit best.

Surrealistik
2011-04-09, 07:25 PM
I guess most things are easier to define? There's a huge variety in what psychic powers can do as opposed to a gun. Or a sword.

Still, bit surprised they didn't have a definitive answer.

I really don't see the ambiguity myself as what Dodge can actually evade is clearly defined in its entry, and melee/ranged attacks (what it can evade) are defined by featuring Weapon/Ballistic Tests respectively which Psychic Powers almost never have. I'm going to write in myself citing these passages, and see what CS has to say about them.


OR, they could let you rule one way or the other, like they just did. Unless they errata it there's no real official stand, I suppose.

All he really did was encourage Destro Yersul to find a solution that fit best.

Which is terrible quality assurance for a defined ruleset. A major point of such a ruleset is to have defined answers for precisely this sort of thing, and if the Word of God rules something resolvable only by DM fiat when that thing happens to fall soundly within the ruleset's purview, then that ruleset's integrity and quality are eroded. This is especially true when it is a matter of importance, as the 'dodgability' of Psychic Powers is.

This is comparable to WotC ruling that it's up to the DM whether or not spells in 3.5 DnD need to bypass AC as an example.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-09, 07:30 PM
Best guess would be the same thing they said to me. That essentially, it's up to the GM whether they can be dodged or not. Personally, I think it rather unbalances psykers if they can't be dodged, hence my reasoning for ruling that they can be. Rules as intended, and all that. There are psychic powers that work at melee range, and ones that work at more distant ranges. Long as they have to roll to hit, it should be possible to dodge them.

Surrealistik
2011-04-09, 07:44 PM
I completely disagree, and find that the rules are clear.

Fluffwise, my interpretation is that the psychic powers are essentially homing and unavoidable, with the will of the psyker determining whether or not an attack is properly directed, hitting being completely independent of what the psyker's target does.

Furthermore, from a crunch perspective, if most psychic powers with rolls to 'hit' are made dodgable, it renders already tenuously useful powers blatantly underpowered. Psychic Crush is an excellent example, as is Bio-lightning. There are also many powers for which Dodging just straight up, flat out makes no sense: Blood Boil for one, and every offensive Telepathy power.

Sarco_Phage
2011-04-09, 07:52 PM
"You attempted to boil my blood, but my prodigious agility has allowed me to DODGE THE WARP TENDRILS that would allow you to do that!"

EDIT: Yeah, I agree that it would be monstrously silly.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-09, 08:01 PM
Psychic Crush doesn't roll to hit. It's an opposed test. None of the Telepathy powers that I can see (skimmed them) roll to hit. Bio-lightning does not roll to hit. Blood boil does not roll to hit. None of those can be dodged. Fire bolt tests WP to hit. Force Barrage tests WP to hit. A gun fired with precision telekinesis, or an attack made with a PSychic Blade, those test WP to hit. They can be dodged, by my interpretation.

Surrealistik
2011-04-09, 09:44 PM
Psychic Crush doesn't roll to hit. It's an opposed test. None of the Telepathy powers that I can see (skimmed them) roll to hit. Bio-lightning does not roll to hit. Blood boil does not roll to hit. None of those can be dodged. Fire bolt tests WP to hit. Force Barrage tests WP to hit. A gun fired with precision telekinesis, or an attack made with a PSychic Blade, those test WP to hit. They can be dodged, by my interpretation.

'Roll to hit' as in a roll is required to have an effect, though yes, they don't specifically feature the word 'to hit'. By that logic though, Firebolt would automatically hit since you don't actually roll to 'hit' the target, you roll to 'strike' it.

True about Bio-lightning though.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-10, 07:40 AM
Yeah, but immediately after the word strike, it says 'On a hit.' The precise word choice doesn't particularly matter in this case, it's still a roll to hit. Since you want to go that way though, here's a list of powers (Core book only, minor powers excluded) which by my thinking would allow a roll to dodge their effects.

Fire Bolt
Fling
Force Barrage (Dodges the first bolt only, unless you get degrees of success)
Force Bolt
Precision Telekinesis (Wielding a gun or sword or thrown weapon or something)
Psychic Blade (being melee, this could technically be parried as well, but I wouldn't want to see the effect on the unfortunate weapon used to parry)
Mind Scan (Which requires a WS test in most cases. If it doesn't, it means they're either cooperating or unaware, in which case no dodge would be given anyways)

Not included on the list is Wall of Fire, which states it allows an Ag test at +20 to get out of the way

Incidentally, your way of thinking makes Psychic Blade pretty much ineffective. Because it uses WP to hit, and not WS, by your logic you can't use it as part of a charge action.

Surrealistik
2011-04-10, 09:16 AM
Yeah, but immediately after the word strike, it says 'On a hit.' The precise word choice doesn't particularly matter in this case, it's still a roll to hit.

The precise language at the key point in the power that defines what it actually does on a successful roll is 'strike'. The later use of 'hit' is a simply way to state the idea of the power having an effect or impact.


Since you want to go that way though, here's a list of powers (Core book only, minor powers excluded) which by my thinking would allow a roll to dodge their effects.

Fire Bolt
Fling
Force Barrage (Dodges the first bolt only, unless you get degrees of success)
Force Bolt
Precision Telekinesis (Wielding a gun or sword or thrown weapon or something)
Psychic Blade (being melee, this could technically be parried as well, but I wouldn't want to see the effect on the unfortunate weapon used to parry)
Mind Scan (Which requires a WS test in most cases. If it doesn't, it means they're either cooperating or unaware, in which case no dodge would be given anyways)

Not included on the list is Wall of Fire, which states it allows an Ag test at +20 to get out of the way

Incidentally, your way of thinking makes Psychic Blade pretty much ineffective. Because it uses WP to hit, and not WS, by your logic you can't use it as part of a charge action.

My way of thinking actually is that it can't be dodged period, nor can it be parried. Between that and its excellent (relatively speaking) penetration/damage, PB remains an effective power.

Classifying the Fling power as dodgable makes it effectively useless.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-10, 09:51 AM
The precise language at the key point in the power that defines what it actually does on a successful roll is 'strike'. The later use of 'hit' is a simply way to state the idea of the power having an effect or impact.

So is 'strike.'



My way of thinking actually is that it can't be dodged period, nor can it be parried. Between that and its excellent (relatively speaking) penetration/damage, PB remains an effective power.

Classifying the Fling power as dodgable makes it effectively useless.

We've already established that your views differ from mine. The fact remains that by your logic, Psychic Blade becomes incredibly unwieldy to use.

As for Fling, are you suggesting that it shouldn't be possible to get out of the way of large heavy objects being hurled in your general direction? It even says in the power description to resolve the hit as if it were an attack. I'd think that can pierce even your logic. Are guns that fire only one bullet at a time effectively useless?

Surrealistik
2011-04-10, 11:40 AM
So is 'strike.'

Except 'strike' is the operative word used to define what actually happened.


We've already established that your views differ from mine. The fact remains that by your logic, Psychic Blade becomes incredibly unwieldy to use.

First of all, all Charge requires is that you make a single attack (which PB counts as according to anyone's logic). It doesn't specify whether that attack is melee or ranged, or undefined (as in the case of Psychic Powers). It doesn't make a distinction between 'hitting' or 'striking' either. That said, what prevents you from using it with a Charge 'according to my logic'?

Second, even if you couldn't use the Charge action with Psychic Blade, how does that prohibition alone in any way make it 'incredibly unwieldly to use'?


As for Fling, are you suggesting that it shouldn't be possible to get out of the way of large heavy objects being hurled in your general direction? It even says in the power description to resolve the hit as if it were an attack. I'd think that can pierce even your logic. Are guns that fire only one bullet at a time effectively useless?

Yes they are, if your opponent both can dodge said weapon, and has an adequate dodge skill. Single shot weapons in the mid-late ranks are useful only for baiting dodges, using on surprised/flatfooted opponents, or dogpiling after a dodge has been expended assuming you're pitted against rank appropriate enemies.

Further, Fling features anemic damage output inferior to most conventional weapons by the time you pick it up. I am suggesting that a power shouldn't be nerfed into uselessness in order to satisfy a Force Barrage nerf; no person in their right mind would ever pick Fling if you could dodge it (the same goes with Force Bolt). Don't 'fix' what isn't broken; blanket revisions are not the solution.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-10, 12:08 PM
the point is that 'strike' and 'hit' are used synonymously. The power still involves a 'roll to hit.' There is no distinction between striking and hitting in this context.

Charge specifies weapon skill tests. Psychic Blade uses WP to hit. The reason it makes it unwieldy is because Charge is the only way to close to melee range with any reasonable degree of speed. Say combat starts, and your oppenent is 12m away. For the purposes of argument, say he stands still, and assume you both have an Ag bonus of 3.

One round to manifest psychic blade and make a half move to close the gap, one to charge. Two rounds, my logic.

One round to manifest and close the gap. One round to make a full move. One round to make a half move and attack. Three rounds, your logic.

But that's if he stands still. What if he's backing away while shooting you?

Manifest, close the gap. He backs up and shoots. Still 12 meters. One round.
Full move. Back up and shoot. 9 meters. Two rounds.
Charge. Zero meters, Three rounds. My logic.

Manifest, close. Back up and shoot. Still 12, one round.
Full Move. Back up and shoot. 9 meters. Two rounds.
Full move. Back up and shoot. 6 meters. Three rounds.
Full move. 0 meters. Now ordinarily if he backed up here, you'd get a free attack, but by your logic Psychic Blade is not a melee weapon, since it uses WP instead of WS. Since you thusly aren't engaged in melee, he's free to back up and shoot. You can do nothing. 3 meters, Four rounds.
Half move, attack. Five rounds, and you got one attack in. Your logic.


What about getting out of the way of large objects being tossed at you? That makes sense, right? You used fluff before, when you said psychic powers shouldn't be dodgeable. Can I not use it to say this one should be? I'd still take Fling, even though it can be dodged. I'd use it, too. I'd also use single shot weapons, because I don't believe you're correct about their usefulness or lack thereof.

Surrealistik
2011-04-10, 01:51 PM
the point is that 'strike' and 'hit' are used synonymously. The power still involves a 'roll to hit.' There is no distinction between striking and hitting in this context.

The RAW doesn't care what language is used casually to describe the successful impact or imposition of an effect as 'hit' does in Firebolt. If that weren't true, you could argue that any power which featured a roll to have an effect also essentially 'rolls to hit'.


Charge specifies weapon skill tests. Psychic Blade uses WP to hit.

No it doesn't; Charge specifies a _bonus_ to WS tests, but as per the RAW, any attack can actually be used.


The reason it makes it unwieldy is because Charge is the only way to close to melee range with any reasonable degree of speed. Say combat starts, and your oppenent is 12m away. For the purposes of argument, say he stands still, and assume you both have an Ag bonus of 3.

One round to manifest psychic blade and make a half move to close the gap, one to charge. Two rounds, my logic.

One round to manifest and close the gap. One round to make a full move. One round to make a half move and attack. Three rounds, your logic.

But that's if he stands still. What if he's backing away while shooting you?

Manifest, close the gap. He backs up and shoots. Still 12 meters. One round.
Full move. Back up and shoot. 9 meters. Two rounds.
Charge. Zero meters, Three rounds. My logic.

Manifest, close. Back up and shoot. Still 12, one round.
Full Move. Back up and shoot. 9 meters. Two rounds.
Full move. Back up and shoot. 6 meters. Three rounds.
Full move. 0 meters. Now ordinarily if he backed up here, you'd get a free attack, but by your logic Psychic Blade is not a melee weapon, since it uses WP instead of WS. Since you thusly aren't engaged in melee, he's free to back up and shoot. You can do nothing. 3 meters, Four rounds.
Half move, attack. Five rounds, and you got one attack in. Your logic.

First of all, if a target moves away from a 'melee opponent' without disengaging, you get a free attack period. Despite 'melee opponent' having no formal definition, even if you described it as someone who capable of making melee attacks against you, the psyker can still attack with PB (he can always attack with his fists/pistol whip/whatever). It doesn't specify whether that attack is melee, ranged, or otherwise.

Second, if I had to choose between having my CQC weapon be undodgable and unparryable, and not having it usable with Charge, I'd pick the former every time; that it situationally takes more time to leverage against a kiting opponent that starts out a distance from you is not in any way a major problem (nor does it classify PB as being 'incredibly unwieldy' to use). That said, it is still usable with Charge by my logic (namely because, again, by the RAW, Charge permits _any_ attack). Finally, what the hell are you doing spending so much time chasing in the first place with an equal Ag bonus, charges or otherwise? Just blast him.


What about getting out of the way of large objects being tossed at you? That makes sense, right? You used fluff before, when you said psychic powers shouldn't be dodgeable. Can I not use it to say this one should be? I'd still take Fling, even though it can be dodged. I'd use it, too. I'd also use single shot weapons, because I don't believe you're correct about their usefulness or lack thereof.

I'm certain you will after you get paired against enemies that have an excellent dodge score, and straight up negate your attacks well over half the time. I'm not saying that (all) single shot weapons are completely useless, but significant pains/conditions must be endured to make sure they're not flat out negated.

Second, there is no reason to pick Fling assuming it's dodgable. Facing nulls/untouchables? You have far superior conventional weapons, and Precision Telekinesis (which are probably better bets even _without_ PT). There is no point in wasting a precious Telekinetic power slot on such a nerfed pile if you are making a remotely optimized character.

Third, I can easily fluff an undodgable fling. Assuming the Psyker succeeds on the WP Test to direct it, it's a case of his will manifest; the object will pursue his target with the infallibility of a magic missile.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-10, 02:21 PM
The RAW doesn't care what language is used casually to describe the successful impact or imposition of an effect as 'hit' does in Firebolt. If that weren't true, you could argue that any power which featured a roll to have an effect also essentially 'rolls to hit'.



No it doesn't; Charge specifies a _bonus_ to WS tests, but as per the RAW, any attack can actually be used.



First of all, if a target moves away from a 'melee opponent' without disengaging, you get a free attack period. Despite 'melee opponent' having no formal definition, even if you described it as someone who capable of making melee attacks against you, the psyker can still attack with PB (he can always attack with his fists/pistol whip/whatever). It doesn't specify whether that attack is melee, ranged, or otherwise.

Second, if I had to choose between having my CQC weapon be undodgable and unparryable, and not having it usable with Charge, I'd pick the former every time; that it situationally takes more time to leverage against a kiting opponent that starts out a distance from you is not in any way a major problem (nor does it classify PB as being 'incredibly unwieldy' to use). That said, it is still usable with Charge by my logic (namely because, again, by the RAW, Charge permits _any_ attack). Finally, what the hell are you doing spending so much time chasing in the first place with an equal Ag bonus? Just blast him.



I'm certain you will after you get paired against enemies that have an excellent dodge score, and straight up negate your attacks well over half the time. I'm not saying that (all) single shot weapons are completely useless, but significant pains/conditions must be endured to make sure they're not flat out negated.

Second, there is no reason to pick Fling assuming it's dodgable. Facing nulls/untouchables? You have far superior conventional weapons, and Precision Telekinesis (which are probably better bets even _without_ PT). There is no point in wasting a precious Telekinetic power slot on such a nerfed pile if you are making a remotely optimized character.

Third, I can easily fluff an undodgable fling. Assuming the Psyker succeeds on the WP Test to direct it, it's a case of his will manifest; the object will pursue him with the infallibility of a magic missile.

In order:

No, you couldn't, because they don't. It's the same as the difference between Knock-Down and a regular melee attack. The melee attack tests WS to hit, and can be dodged. Knock-Down tests opposed Strength, and cannot be dodged.

The exact wording is "You gain a +10 bonus to your Weapon Skill Test made at the end of the Charge." This wording does not allow for testing anything other than WS at the end of a charge. It is not "+10 to any WS tests made at the end of the charge," it is "+10 to THE WS test made at the end of the charge." You cannot charge, and then test something other than WS, by the RAW.

melee opponent has no definition in the same way melee attack has no definition. Glad to see you see it my way.

I've fought Genestealers. At rank 2. Single shot worked just fine against them, on the occassions that I used it. When the going gets tough, the tough get creative. None of the 'stealers was killed by straight damage, but we still got all 3 of them. Dark Heresy's system means that you fail to hit, or whatever, a lot of the time. That's normal.

I don't much care for optimization. I have a tendency to frown on it in games I run, and whack it with a big ol' nerfbat whenever possible. Some people like it. I don't. I like to be effective, but there is a difference between effective and optimized.

That's not what the power says it does. It says you pick it up and throw it. With your mind. Also, given a WP bonus of, let's say 5, basic fling would do 1d10+5 on a hit. That's not too bad at all, and it just gets bigger when you overbleed.

Surrealistik
2011-04-10, 03:26 PM
No, you couldn't, because they don't. It's the same as the difference between Knock-Down and a regular melee attack. The melee attack tests WS to hit, and can be dodged. Knock-Down tests opposed Strength, and cannot be dodged.

Except they do, defining 'hit' as a power or attack otherwise having an effect. The alternative is relying on the RAW to tell you that an attack literally rolls to hit, which Fire Bolt as stated, doesn't.


The exact wording is "You gain a +10 bonus to your Weapon Skill Test made at the end of the Charge." This wording does not allow for testing anything other than WS at the end of a charge. It is not "+10 to any WS tests made at the end of the charge," it is "+10 to THE WS test made at the end of the charge." You cannot charge, and then test something other than WS, by the RAW.

Incorrect. That wording does not necessitate in any way the use of a melee attack. A strict reading clearly demonstrates that it doesn't actually tell you to make either a Weapon Skill Test or melee attack, at _best_ it implies you make a melee attack, but an implication is not an imperative; it's simply a poorly written rule that by RAW permits any sort of attack that is otherwise legal.


melee opponent has no definition in the same way melee attack has no definition. Glad to see you see it my way.

Melee attack is clearly defined as an attack that features a Weapon Skill roll with respect to the various passages I've quoted, as opposed to 'melee opponent' which has no kind of definition period cited anywhere, explicit or implied. Your presumption is cute though.


I've fought Genestealers. At rank 2. Single shot worked just fine against them, on the occassions that I used it. When the going gets tough, the tough get creative. None of the 'stealers was killed by straight damage, but we still got all 3 of them. Dark Heresy's system means that you fail to hit, or whatever, a lot of the time. That's normal.

Your microcosm proves nothing, nevermind the general efficacy of single shot weapons as compared to others.


I don't much care for optimization. I have a tendency to frown on it in games I run, and whack it with a big ol' nerfbat whenever possible. Some people like it. I don't. I like to be effective, but there is a difference between effective and optimized.

A dodgable Fling isn't even effective.


That's not what the power says it does. It says you pick it up and throw it. With your mind. Also, given a WP bonus of, let's say 5, basic fling would do 1d10+5 on a hit. That's not too bad at all, and it just gets bigger when you overbleed.

1d10+5 is terrible by the time you get it, and in contrast to a wide range of alternatives, especially when you risk perils.

Second, sure, you throw it, as in telekinetically propel it; that doesn't mean the trajectory can't be guided.

profitofrage
2011-04-10, 08:51 PM
Ok Im thinking that we need some context here.
Surrealistik I think you need to understand that the great majority of the psychic powers are not specifically meant for pure damage, but rather the utility. Fling for example...you complain that 1D10 + 5 is terrible....you realise thats ONLY if your throwing a rock...try using it to fling a grenade at a target...or an explosive barrel...an opponant...a missle..a melta bomb. All of those could make the power FAR more deadly in a combat sense...and there are plenty more uses outside of combat which DH thankfully encourages to a great extent.

I think that ultimatly it comes down to you thinking from a purely combat optimisation viewpoint that is very out of place with how the rest of the game seems to run. You say that the psyker is to powerful...but when hes limited to be on par with the other carreers cry out that we broke powers.
Dodgable psychic powers? As intended its obvious by the email that it could be thought of either way. The reasoning is that...while its just as reasonable to assume you can dodge that fireball thrown at you..its just as likely that it might home in. Ultimatly..if your having balance issues...(which by the point of the thread we are) Id say there dodgeable.
Moreover the fact the previous email confirmed my thoughts on ForceBarrage its rather clear that RAI seems to be siding more with the "each power is a utility" rather then your "certain powers have to be awesome all others are useless ounce there replaced" way of thinking.
This isnt D&D..where the wizard has a list of spells a mile long and as he levels needs to replace his old spells for new ones. This is DH...where a psyker with an autocannon causes as much damage as the guardsmen..the difference is the guardsmen trained hard to hit often.
In this setting Psykers are meant to have utilities that no other people posses...options noone else has. This they do VERY well, they dont have to be combat monsters..there still incredibly potent and are easily on par in a fight.
In practise you wont see your whole squad carrying missle launchers and autocannons. Hell your lucky to see them with more then two basic weapons (max damage 1D10+5).
now lets not forget that there damage output can be matched by the psyker the moment you put that same gun in there hands...I think its perfectly reasonable to let the incredibly deadly and unbalanced powers to have a far closer damage output to what the other acolytes have, because in the end..they still have that versatility and utility with them that still puts them above and beyond anything mundane.

Surrealistik
2011-04-10, 09:58 PM
Ok Im thinking that we need some context here.
Surrealistik I think you need to understand that the great majority of the psychic powers are not specifically meant for pure damage, but rather the utility. Fling for example...you complain that 1D10 + 5 is terrible....you realise thats ONLY if your throwing a rock...try using it to fling a grenade at a target...or an explosive barrel...an opponant...a missle..a melta bomb. All of those could make the power FAR more deadly in a combat sense...and there are plenty more uses outside of combat which DH thankfully encourages to a great extent.

You're _far_ better off animating an Autocannon or other similarly powerful weapon with Precision Telekinesis for damage. You can also use Precision Telekinesis to throw deadly stuff; I love that power.


I think that ultimatly it comes down to you thinking from a purely combat optimisation viewpoint that is very out of place with how the rest of the game seems to run. You say that the psyker is to powerful...but when hes limited to be on par with the other carreers cry out that we broke powers.
Dodgable psychic powers? As intended its obvious by the email that it could be thought of either way. The reasoning is that...while its just as reasonable to assume you can dodge that fireball thrown at you..its just as likely that it might home in. Ultimatly..if your having balance issues...(which by the point of the thread we are) Id say there dodgeable.
Moreover the fact the previous email confirmed my thoughts on ForceBarrage its rather clear that RAI seems to be siding more with the "each power is a utility" rather then your "certain powers have to be awesome all others are useless ounce there replaced" way of thinking.
This isnt D&D..where the wizard has a list of spells a mile long and as he levels needs to replace his old spells for new ones. This is DH...where a psyker with an autocannon causes as much damage as the guardsmen..the difference is the guardsmen trained hard to hit often.
In this setting Psykers are meant to have utilities that no other people posses...options noone else has. This they do VERY well, they dont have to be combat monsters..there still incredibly potent and are easily on par in a fight.
In practise you wont see your whole squad carrying missle launchers and autocannons. Hell your lucky to see them with more then two basic weapons (max damage 1D10+5).
now lets not forget that there damage output can be matched by the psyker the moment you put that same gun in there hands...I think its perfectly reasonable to let the incredibly deadly and unbalanced powers to have a far closer damage output to what the other acolytes have, because in the end..they still have that versatility and utility with them that still puts them above and beyond anything mundane.

The Psyker actually is probably better at using any weapon than the Guardsman ever will be, as he can get his WP significantly higher than the Guardsman can get his BS or WS.

Also, I feel it's obvious by now that my thoughts aren't concerned purely with combat optimization; the Psyker is easily the most versatile in the game, besides being far and away the most powerful in actual fights. Even if you make FB (and other powers) dodgable, which the RAW clearly shows they aren't, that doesn't change.

profitofrage
2011-04-10, 10:08 PM
Ok im very VERY VERY sure that the precision telekinesis power isnt intended to work that way at all. If i knew who to email to ask this myself I would have a hundred times over. I feel that precision telekinesis is the most broken power there is simply because of the poor wording used and the fact it acts as a WP substitute spell instead of its intended use to preform precision tasks.

You cant say that FB is clearly undodgable as even the writers accept its ambiguous enough to say it can be taken either way. And lets not forget that FB doesnt get Force bolts overbleed remember? They also cleared that one up for us as well. Which puts it back down to comparable levels.


Anyhow is there anyone who CAN email that question off? and if so how are you doing it :P i wants the ability to get the word of god.

Surrealistik
2011-04-10, 10:16 PM
Ok im very VERY VERY sure that the precision telekinesis power isnt intended to work that way at all. If i knew who to email to ask this myself I would have a hundred times over. I feel that precision telekinesis is the most broken power there is simply because of the poor wording used and the fact it acts as a WP substitute spell instead of its intended use to preform precision tasks.

I disagree, I'm fairly certain the designers envisioned psykers stylishly owning people with a floating sword/gun; they just failed to realize how ridiculously versatile and awesome this power would be. It's just poorly designed (balancewise), much like a lot of other stuff in the rulebook.


You cant say that FB is clearly undodgable as even the writers accept its ambiguous enough to say it can be taken either way. And lets not forget that FB doesnt get Force bolts overbleed remember? They also cleared that one up for us as well. Which puts it back down to comparable levels.

First, keep in mind that FFG did not write the core rulebook.

Also, that CS rep didn't even try; that answer was completely lazy and I suspect the RAW wasn't even investigated. Reading it closely, I literally cannot see any semblance of ambiguity. I really can't. Dodge 'dodges' melee and ranged attacks only, and melee and ranged attacks are defined by having BS and WS Tests. I sent CS an e-mail with specific RAW references that highlight this, and what they make on them. I am currently awaiting a response.

profitofrage
2011-04-10, 10:24 PM
Well considering that nothing else in the book...or any other subsequent books...or any other powers at all...that encourages that notion of walking around controlling guns and weapons at the drop of a hat...Im going to have to say i disagree with you in terms of that intention.

Especially since the power that you claim they used to accomplish this was specifically described as doing VERY different things in its very discription. No i think its rather plainly obvious that there intention was for it to be a more controlled version of Telekinesis...rather then your interpretation.

Further more, because you dont like the answer doesnt mean it wieghs any less. Ultimatly there the people we go to if we have questions about the product, there the people we ask if we have an issue with the rules. Just because you suspect lazyness on there part doesnt make the ruling any less concrete. Otherwise I could just as easily say that they were just being lazy in publishing..and that they MEANT to say that Precision telekenisis couldnt be used to sub BS tests and WS tests.

Thank you for sending off the email, although I personally would have preffered sending them one myself. However beggers cant be choosers :P if Im not clever enough to get the resources thats my bad luck.

Surrealistik
2011-04-10, 10:48 PM
Well considering that nothing else in the book...or any other subsequent books...or any other powers at all...that encourages that notion of walking around controlling guns and weapons at the drop of a hat...Im going to have to say i disagree with you in terms of that intention.

Especially since the power that you claim they used to accomplish this was specifically described as doing VERY different things in its very discription. No i think its rather plainly obvious that there intention was for it to be a more controlled version of Telekinesis...rather then your interpretation.

Further more, because you dont like the answer doesnt mean it wieghs any less. Ultimatly there the people we go to if we have questions about the product, there the people we ask if we have an issue with the rules. Just because you suspect lazyness on there part doesnt make the ruling any less concrete. Otherwise I could just as easily say that they were just being lazy in publishing..and that they MEANT to say that Precision telekenisis couldnt be used to sub BS tests and WS tests.

Thank you for sending off the email, although I personally would have preffered sending them one myself. However beggers cant be choosers :P if Im not clever enough to get the resources thats my bad luck.

You mean Black Library was 'lazy in publishing', and yes, just flat out saying that 'it's up to the GM' without making a definitive ruling, thus eroding the ruleset with ambiguity and houseruling is lazy regardless of whether they did their homework or not.

Also, how on earth does the lack of other powers controlling weapons mean that Precision Telekinesis wasn't intended to manipulate them? Further, describing a handful of specific things you can do with the power in no way proves a lack of intent with respect to using WP to operate weapons.

Second there is a definite precedent of powers they added with clear intent albeit with little to no investigation of balance: Force Barrage, Preternatural, Weapon Jinx, Awareness or any thus far errata-ed power.

In any case, it's pointless to speculate on.

profitofrage
2011-04-10, 10:59 PM
We already know that by RAW Precision telekinesis can do these things, were far past RAW when it comes to that power. Gaming companies make mistakes when they publish..they dont play test enough...or in my opinion play test it with people intent on breaking the game.

What im arguing is intent. If they truly intended for Psykers to be carrying floating guns...firing with there minds and flinging homing missiles....why is it you dont see these same powers in DW? or RT?
The "homing missiles" I can give you since I can bet that they possess the same poor wording that appears in DH. But so far only Precision Telekinesis posseses the incredible "sub WP here" qualities YOU say are intentional.
If it was Intentional they would have already given these abilities tenfold to the Astartes Librarian (just in case he wanted it to) and the RT characters since BOTH games are meant to be higher tier characters by RAW.

Also Weapon Jinx rocks in all forms its not imbalanced IMO..its just one of the few minor powers that scale well

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-10, 11:13 PM
Profit, here you go: Fantasy Flight Games Rules Queries (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_faq.asp)

Also, Surrealistik, I think you're mistaken about who was answering the questions. It wasn't a customer service rep. It was one of the game producers.

As for my analogy about genestealers proving nothing, I think it disproves your point quite nicely. We fought genestealers, one of the dodgiest enemies out there, with single shot weapons. And won. They clearly aren't useless.

Sometimes, wording is just that. Wording. Usually, terms which are meant to be rigorously defined in the book are capitalised. In fact, every term I can find in the book that is rigorously defined is capitalised. Test, Impact Damage, Characteristic, Skill, Talent, Difficulty. All of these terms have been capitalised. All of these are clearly defined. "Hit," "melee attack," "strike," none of these have been. None of these are rigorously defined, except by a doggedly literal interpretation of the rules.

It's quite clear to me that we have a vast difference in opinion on what the game is supposed to be like. I suspect that you, playing a psyker in one of my games, would not do very well and would probably walk away unhappy. I feel that I have supported my points by a clear and valid interpretation of the spirit of the rules as written, rather than sticking strictly to the letter of them. You seem to disagree. Neither of us seems to be managing to get through to the other, either, as you have thus entirely failed to convince me your position is correct, though if it's the one you want to use for your games, hey, that's cool. Just don't expect me to play in them and have fun.

Oh, and one last note. "Risking Perils," as you put it, is fun. At least, it is to me. I like the idea that horrible things could happen any time I use a psychic power. So, that's not really a drawback as far as I'm concerned. More an exciting piece of flavour.

profitofrage
2011-04-10, 11:21 PM
Thank you very much Destro_Yersul Im definably going to be saving that link for later use (though i hope i wont need it)
Im also very much inclined to Agree with you in terms of rule interpretations (and that perils are fun..who doesnt like reversing gravity in a room filled with priests in robes?)
I suspect that untill we get a difinative answer from FFG or a games producer this issue wont be put to rest.

Surrealistik
2011-04-11, 01:00 AM
Also, Surrealistik, I think you're mistaken about who was answering the questions. It wasn't a customer service rep. It was one of the game producers.

That's even worse.


As for my analogy about genestealers proving nothing, I think it disproves your point quite nicely. We fought genestealers, one of the dodgiest enemies out there, with single shot weapons. And won. They clearly aren't useless.

Microcosms don't prove points; that's logic 101. Further no one is saying that taking down genestealers with single shot weapons is impossible, so much as that you have far better alternatives. Single shot weapons are comparatively useless.


Sometimes, wording is just that. Wording. Usually, terms which are meant to be rigorously defined in the book are capitalised. In fact, every term I can find in the book that is rigorously defined is capitalised. Test, Impact Damage, Characteristic, Skill, Talent, Difficulty. All of these terms have been capitalised. All of these are clearly defined. "Hit," "melee attack," "strike," none of these have been. None of these are rigorously defined, except by a doggedly literal interpretation of the rules.

Which is what you ultimately must go by; that is the point of the rules.


It's quite clear to me that we have a vast difference in opinion on what the game is supposed to be like. I suspect that you, playing a psyker in one of my games, would not do very well and would probably walk away unhappy. I feel that I have supported my points by a clear and valid interpretation of the spirit of the rules as written, rather than sticking strictly to the letter of them. You seem to disagree. Neither of us seems to be managing to get through to the other, either, as you have thus entirely failed to convince me your position is correct, though if it's the one you want to use for your games, hey, that's cool. Just don't expect me to play in them and have fun.

Short of DM fiat I don't see how a psyker I build and play would do poorly in one of your games. Even with the very worst of your nerfs, the Psyker is still the most powerful career by far.

Second, as stated, you are welcome to houserule and disregard the RAW with liberal RAI interpretations. In fact, the producer of the game seems to believe that arbitrary DM fiat should be the basis of DH rather than comprehensive and well-defined rules which is what most people purchased the book line for I'm sure.



What im arguing is intent. If they truly intended for Psykers to be carrying floating guns...firing with there minds and flinging homing missiles....why is it you dont see these same powers in DW? or RT?
The "homing missiles" I can give you since I can bet that they possess the same poor wording that appears in DH. But so far only Precision Telekinesis posseses the incredible "sub WP here" qualities YOU say are intentional.
If it was Intentional they would have already given these abilities tenfold to the Astartes Librarian (just in case he wanted it to) and the RT characters since BOTH games are meant to be higher tier characters by RAW.

That certain powers are not in RT/DW proves exactly nothing. Seriously, there are plenty of powers from the core rulebook that appear in neither; how does that in any way obviate or otherwise cast into doubt Black Library's intentions behind certain powers, particularly when FFG had exactly nothing to do with the core rulebook, and was the creative force and author behind these other supplements?


Also Weapon Jinx rocks in all forms its not imbalanced IMO..its just one of the few minor powers that scale well

Weapon Jinx in its original form was unquestionably overpowered. Automatically causing any mechanical/electronic device within a 50 meter radius to fail with a Threshold 8 lesser power, and you can extend the radius by 10 meters with each Overbleed 5? Good god, are you kidding me? Good thing it was errataed.

profitofrage
2011-04-11, 01:40 AM
Weapon Jinx in its original form was unquestionably overpowered. Automatically causing any mechanical/electronic device within a 50 meter radius to fail with a Threshold 8 lesser power, and you can extend the radius by 10 meters with each Overbleed 5? Good god, are you kidding me? Good thing it was errataed.

Just to include a funny anecdote on this issue. I had an argument with a player who believed this wasnt an issue. I then asked him if he had ever imagined his TechPriest characters with there rebreathers built into there face..effectivly replacing there mouth e.t.c He said "well duh of course"
I then told him that the rebreather counts as an electrical device :P the look on his face was priceless.

MickJay
2011-04-11, 04:18 AM
Rogue Trader rules tend to be slightly more streamlined and less lazily written, while the system basically remains the same. Combat action have subtypes now, and Charge is listed as being "Attack, Melee, Movement" action (table 9-4).

That said, psychic powers were revised, but the text clearly states that either version can be used in either game, and there's a rough guideline how to convert power rolls to focus tests. In RT version, Force Bolt requires a BS test, while having potential to do more damage (+2 per psy rating); Precision Telekinesis states the psyker can do anything at range that he'd otherwise be able to do with bare hands, substituting WP for relevant characteristic (psy rating substitutes for STR bonus here).

profitofrage
2011-04-11, 04:21 AM
where does it say that about precision telekinesis?

MickJay
2011-04-11, 06:41 AM
Rogue Trader book, p. 171.

Incidentally, the RAW here seems to allow for hovering a weapon with PT and using WP instead of BS, or even WS, even though I'm still not entirely convinced if that's actually RAI (and would probably call for a more difficult test anyway, on top of any other standard penalties).

Surrealistik
2011-04-11, 09:23 AM
Oh that's right, PT _does_ appear in RT; further support for the notion that trading WP for BS/WS is as intended unless FFG somehow failed to even superficially gauge the power in the years since it took up the WH40k license (complete with years worth of player feedback).

profitofrage
2011-04-11, 09:27 AM
I suppose I'll have to concede the point, though I still find it terribly unbalanced and illsuited. Did you get any words back from the email you sent? As im still hoping that this was all just a horrid mistake on the part of the publishers and that this wasnt truly there intention with the power.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-11, 10:16 AM
Comparatively useless is not what you said. They are indeed comparitively useless, given some of the other choices. What you said was effectively useless, which is a quite different thing given the context.

The point of rules is NOT to be interpreted literally. The point of the rules is to be interpreted as fits the setting, style of game, narrative AND the rules as they are written AND intended. Otherwise, what would be the point of including rule 0 in the rulebook? Page 218, Act as the Referee.

"You are the final arbiter of game rules in all circumstances. You decide what is probable, possible, unlikely, and flat out insane."

If I were to take a doggedly literal interpretation of that passage, it means that as long as I'm the game master, you are wrong and I am right and there is nothing you can do about it. But that's not a good way for it to be. Things shouldn't be arbitrary. Things shouldn't happen just because 'The GM Said So.' There should be a reason for it, some logic behind it. We are each employing a seperate set of logic, it's true, but I have no doubt that our individual logic makes sense to us. Otherwise, why would we be using it?

Sometimes, rules are only vaguely defined at best, which is the case here. That is when the GM should make a call on it. If it wasn't vaguely defined, would we be arguing about it?


As a note on PT, Profit, it isn't a WP substitute for everything. It only subs out for characteristic tests. Skill tests, like demolitions and stuff, still use the ruling characteristic for that skill.


Short of DM fiat I don't see how a psyker I build and play would do poorly in one of your games. Even with the very worst of your nerfs, the Psyker is still the most powerful career by far.

On this: I think you've missed the point of what I was trying to say. I didn't say your character wouldn't do well. There's only so much I can do without being arbitrary. I was saying that you wouldn't be happy with the way I run things, and consequently wouldn't enjoy the game.

profitofrage
2011-04-11, 10:27 AM
I am aware, I still find this in and of itself overpowered and out of place.
It effectivly means the Psyker can lift huge wieghts...fire weapons more accurate then the party sniper...makes a previous power totally worthless since anything it can do PT can do better. And moreover makes no sense in comparison to the powers description that doesnt suggest gun wielding and wieght lifting..but rather finely tuned acts of precision. That power in my mind made sense...it was a utility power...not a combat power. Thats why I would never allow it as is in any of my games. I would instead nerf it to not have any wieght carry limit and thus can only push / pull / lift items whose wieght would be considered negligable in the first place. Such as puling a pin on a grenade. Or pulling a lever or any test that would not require a str or toughness test. In fact..the only characteristic I would concievably allow would be the agility characteristic.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-11, 10:54 AM
In regards to lifting things, I think having the guardsman physically lift it would work better in most cases, because the ability to lift things is based on the sum of S and T bonuses.

Now, if you wanted to shift a stuck gate, or something, that'd be a strength test normally, or a WP test with PT, or no test at all with TK, provided the gate wasn't too heavy.

He can't fire weapons more accurately then the sniper, either. The sniper gets to have things like aiming and range bonuses, but the psyker is stuck with straight WP.

Surrealistik
2011-04-11, 11:15 AM
Comparatively useless is not what you said. They are indeed comparitively useless, given some of the other choices. What you said was effectively useless, which is a quite different thing given the context.


I'm certain you will after you get paired against enemies that have an excellent dodge score, and straight up negate your attacks well over half the time. I'm not saying that (all) single shot weapons are completely useless, but significant pains/conditions must be endured to make sure they're not flat out negated.


Your microcosm proves nothing, nevermind the general efficacy of single shot weapons as compared to others.



The point of rules is NOT to be interpreted literally. The point of the rules is to be interpreted as fits the setting, style of game, narrative AND the rules as they are written AND intended. Otherwise, what would be the point of including rule 0 in the rulebook? Page 218, Act as the Referee.

"You are the final arbiter of game rules in all circumstances. You decide what is probable, possible, unlikely, and flat out insane."

If I were to take a doggedly literal interpretation of that passage, it means that as long as I'm the game master, you are wrong and I am right and there is nothing you can do about it. But that's not a good way for it to be. Things shouldn't be arbitrary. Things shouldn't happen just because 'The GM Said So.' There should be a reason for it, some logic behind it. We are each employing a seperate set of logic, it's true, but I have no doubt that our individual logic makes sense to us. Otherwise, why would we be using it?

Sometimes, rules are only vaguely defined at best, which is the case here. That is when the GM should make a call on it. If it wasn't vaguely defined, would we be arguing about it?

The point of the rules is to provide an integral framework and a clear and defined basis with which to run a game. Arbitrarily overturning clearly defined rules defeats the point of having them. Rules exist to be obeyed unless they are untenable, or otherwise seriously and adversely impact the game. Ruling that Psychic Powers are dodgable both clearly defies the rules as written, and does so without just cause; the Psyker remains the most powerful career by far, and all you have succeeded at really doing is making a host of powers untenable so that one is no longer as overpowered.


On this: I think you've missed the point of what I was trying to say. I didn't say your character wouldn't do well. There's only so much I can do without being arbitrary. I was saying that you wouldn't be happy with the way I run things, and consequently wouldn't enjoy the game.

I did mention fiat.


He can't fire weapons more accurately then the sniper, either. The sniper gets to have things like aiming and range bonuses, but the psyker is stuck with straight WP.

So does the Psyker; all PT does is substitute BS with WP. All other modifiers like range, full auto, etc... clearly apply.

MickJay
2011-04-11, 11:27 AM
PT is extremely useful and versatile, especially if GM allows using it for BS and WS attacks - on the other hand, there are few weapons that the psyker could use with it that would be better than simply using another power to deal damage. Lack of appropriate Weapon Training talents would also mean that even with extremely high WP, the average accuracy of, say, a lascannon or missile launcher fired with PT would be lesser than if they were fired by a HW specialist.

I find it more annoying when an aged psyker deals 50+ damage by hitting someone in melee with his force staff. :smalltongue:

profitofrage
2011-04-11, 11:40 AM
If youve managed to afford a Force staff...I think your entitled to huge damage.

My issue is that PT isnt fluffed as doing any of that..its fluffed as being a utility not a combat focuses power. Whats more is theres that very same niche that is unfurfilled by all other powers, then along comes PT that fills the niche perfectly..then by poor word choice ends up changing what its used for to something completly different.


Frankly in my opinion its not RAI for it to work that way, I cant imagine that the developers would intentionally want a power such as that to be used in that way. Especially since its not even hinted at in the powers description, If they wanted a method to just animate guns and cause homing rockets out of nearbye scenary..then they would have called it "Greater Telekinesis" or "Advanced Telekinesis" not "precision Telekinesis"

Ranos
2011-04-11, 11:45 AM
So does the Psyker; all PT does is substitute BS with WP. All other modifiers like range, full auto, etc... clearly apply.

Actually, I don't think they do. At least most of them don't, those that specify that they apply to ranged/melee attacks, or to attacks with BS/WS. Unless I've missed something, that's the (very silly) RAW.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-11, 11:50 AM
The point of the rules is to provide an integral framework and a clear and defined basis with which to run a game. Arbitrarily overturning clearly defined rules defeats the point of having them. Rules exist to be obeyed unless they are untenable, or otherwise seriously and adversely impact the game. Ruling that Psychic Powers are dodgable both clearly defies the rules as written, and does so without just cause; the Psyker remains the most powerful career by far, and all you have succeeded at really doing is make a host of powers untenable so that one is no longer as overpowered.

None of this, to me, seems clearly defined. If it was, we wouldn't need to make rulings on it. Unless it made no logical sense. Bit of both here, I think. The Rules as written aren't the end-all be-all. They exist to make the game run more smoothly by providing a basic framework that defines, loosely or rigidly, what can and can't be done.

Your definition of untenable is clearly very different from mine. I don't feel I have, in my ruling of allowing dodges, nerfed anything beyond use.


I did mention fiat.

Technically true, but that wasn't really the point of the statement. Forget the character, for the moment, I wasn't talking about him. I meant the way I run things in general.


So does the Psyker; all PT does is substitute BS with WP. All other modifiers like range, full auto, etc... clearly apply.

Read 'em again. Semi-auto and full auto mention Ballistic Skill. Aim mentions Ballistic Skill. Range doesn't appear to, so you've got me there, but pretty much every other combat modifier does. Also by the RAW, weapons fired using PT can't score Righteous Fury, nor can any psychic power.

Surrealistik
2011-04-11, 11:54 AM
Actually, I don't think they do. At least most of them don't, those that specify that they apply to ranged/melee attacks, or to attacks with BS/WS. Unless I've missed something, that's the (very silly) RAW.

If the act of substituting BS with WP declassifies an attack that normally uses BS as a 'ranged attack', and prevents it from benefiting from things that modify BS Tests, then it also makes it undodgable, and not subject to cover or conditions on the other hand.

Range modifiers just apply to rolls regardless of whether it's actually a BS Test.



None of this, to me, seems clearly defined. If it was, we wouldn't need to make rulings on it. Unless it made no logical sense. Bit of both here, I think. The Rules as written aren't the end-all be-all. They exist to make the game run more smoothly by providing a basic framework that defines, loosely or rigidly, what can and can't be done.

The ambiguity is just not there, it simply doesn't exist; it's clearly spelt out, black and white.

Further, I didn't state that the RAW is the 'end-all be-all', I said that they are not to be broken unless essentially necessary.


Your definition of untenable is clearly very different from mine. I don't feel I have, in my ruling of allowing dodges, nerfed anything beyond use.

You clearly have; you have made certain powers completely pointless.


Technically true, but that wasn't really the point of the statement. Forget the character, for the moment, I wasn't talking about him. I meant the way I run things in general.

It certainly was; you like fiat and arbitrary rulings, I do not. Employment of these would probably diminish my enjoyment of the game, particularly if I was running a Psyker for which you would probably reserve the brunt of your vitriol.


Read 'em again. Semi-auto and full auto mention Ballistic Skill. Aim mentions Ballistic Skill. Range doesn't appear to, so you've got me there, but pretty much every other combat modifier does. Also by the RAW, weapons fired using PT can't score Righteous Fury, nor can any psychic power.

Which means you also get the benefits of the attack not classifying as a ranged attack: undodgability and cover/condition/circumstance ignoring, which is, in balance, probably advantageous overall.

Ranos
2011-04-11, 12:06 PM
If the act of substituting BS with WP declassifies an attack that normally uses BS as a 'ranged attack', and prevents it from benefiting from things that modify BS Tests, then it also makes it undodgable, and not subject to cover or conditions on the other hand.

Well yes, it does. By RAW, substituting WP for BS makes your attack into some kind of grey area abomination that's not actually a ranged attack.

PS : This is where you should really stop following the RAW, by the way. I still stand by my opinion that just banning the psyker class outright is the best solution.

Surrealistik
2011-04-11, 12:08 PM
Lol yeah; I love how Black Library apparently had no notion of proofing or quality assurance.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-11, 12:55 PM
Black Library didn't have anything to do with Dark Heresy.

To you, the ambiguity is not there. To me, it is. Hence, my rulings. Feel free to believe I am wrong. I believe you are wrong. While you didn't specifically use the words 'end-all be-all' that was the impression I was getting from your posts.

Again, I don't believe I have made those powers pointless. You do, but I believe you are wrong on that account.


It certainly was; you like fiat and arbitrary rulings, I do not. Employment of these would probably diminish my enjoyment of the game, particularly if I was running a Psyker for which you would probably reserve the brunt of your vitriol.

Close enough. Though honestly, I'd only be narrowing my eyes suspiciously at the psyker if you attempted to optimise, and none of my rulings would be arbitrary. All of them have reasoning behind them that isn't just 'because I said so.'

RE: WP vs BS. As said, technically true by the RAW. Also incredibly silly, and probably one of the things I would end up houseruling away.

Surrealistik
2011-04-11, 10:59 PM
Black Library didn't have anything to do with Dark Heresy.

I mean Black Industries.


To you, the ambiguity is not there. To me, it is. Hence, my rulings. Feel free to believe I am wrong. I believe you are wrong.

You just admitted in the very same post that the 'ambiguity' I am referring to (i.e. whether melee/ranged attacks are defined by the test of a Weapon or Ballistic Skill respectively) would, by the RAW, cause BS attacks made with Precision Telekinesis to fail to classify as a ranged attack due to Characteristic substitution, along with all the related implications.


Again, I don't believe I have made those powers pointless. You do, but I believe you are wrong on that account.

They have literally no point; the utility several of these nerfed powers offer is trivial in comparison to the alternatives to the point where there is no logical reason to take them.


Close enough. Though honestly, I'd only be narrowing my eyes suspiciously at the psyker if you attempted to optimise, and none of my rulings would be arbitrary. All of them have reasoning behind them that isn't just 'because I said so.'

I disagree with that. Blanket RAW rejection for fluff related reasons and an unnecessary extrapolation of a mechanical one is pretty damn arbitrary.


RE: WP vs BS. As said, technically true by the RAW. Also incredibly silly, and probably one of the things I would end up houseruling away.

In otherwords, despite WP substituting for BS, the attack counts as a BS Test in which event he gets all the associated bonuses, and is markedly more accurate than anyone else.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-12, 02:01 AM
I mean Black Industries.

Close enough.


You just admitted in the very same post that the 'ambiguity' I am referring to (i.e. whether melee/ranged attacks are defined by the test of a Weapon or Ballistic Skill respectively) would, by the RAW, cause BS attacks made with Precision Telekinesis to fail to classify as a ranged attack due to Characteristic substitution, along with all the related implications.

No I didn't. I said that if something mentions a bonus to ballistic skill, and you're testing WP, you don't get the bonus. That wasn't the ambiguous bit. The ambiguous bit is what qualifies as a ranged attack in the first place.


They have literally no point; the utility several of these nerfed powers offer is trivial in comparison to the alternatives to the point where there is no logical reason to take them.

Explain why there is no reason to take them. I think there's plenty of reasons. Some things won't work in some situations. Animating an autocannon is great, unless there doesn't happen to be an autocannon just lying around. Also, an autocannon weighs 55kg. Unless you've got a WP bonus of 8, PT wouldn't be able to lift it, as far as I'm concerned. Though that's another one of those things the rules don't really cover, and would need a GM ruling.

There will always be situations in which something is more useful than something else.


I disagree with that. Blanket RAW rejection for fluff related reasons and an unnecessary extrapolation of a mechanical one is pretty damn arbitrary.

Arbitrary:
–adjective
1. subject to individual will or judgment without restriction; contingent solely upon one's discretion: an arbitrary decision.
2. decided by a judge or arbiter rather than by a law or statute.
3. having unlimited power; uncontrolled or unrestricted by law; despotic; tyrannical: an arbitrary government.
4. capricious; unreasonable; unsupported: an arbitrary demand for payment.

At best, you could go for definition 2, though that's more of a legal thing. There are restrictions. Furthermore, in no way is it rejection of RAW to make psychic powers which require a roll to hit be dodgeable. It's an interpretation. One you disagree with, for reasons you may not like, but them's the breaks.


In otherwords, despite WP substituting for BS, the attack counts as a BS Test in which event he gets all the associated bonuses, and is markedly more accurate than anyone else.

That's not what I said. What I said is that it not counting as a ranged attack would get houseruled. It can now be dodged. It's not a BS test, so no bonus for you. Balance is fun!

MickJay
2011-04-12, 03:45 AM
I'd say "substituting WP for BS" means that:

- you are now making a WP test, rather than BS test
- bonuses to BS do not add (or subtract) to/from this test, since you're testing WP
- any modifiers that do not specify they apply to BS tests still apply
- the attack is possible to dodge, since you are still rolling to see if you hit

This leaves the question of whether penalty for a lack of an applicable weapon talent still applies, and whether there should be an additional penalty for not actually aiming with the weapon (e.g. when you're hovering the gun away from yourself, or beside yourself).

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-12, 06:29 AM
I'd say "substituting WP for BS" means that:

- you are now making a WP test, rather than BS test
- bonuses to BS do not add (or subtract) to/from this test, since you're testing WP
- any modifiers that do not specify they apply to BS tests still apply
- the attack is possible to dodge, since you are still rolling to see if you hit

This leaves the question of whether penalty for a lack of an applicable weapon talent still applies, and whether there should be an additional penalty for not actually aiming with the weapon (e.g. when you're hovering the gun away from yourself, or beside yourself).

That was my interpretation of it. For the record, weapon training penalties are untyped, and would still apply. Hovering the gun away from yourself would, I'd say, not provide a penalty, since the power says it works 'as though you were manipulating it with your hands.' So it would aim where the psyker was looking to aim it. This also means you couldn't use it to shoot around corners, since he'd need to have line of sight to his target.

profitofrage
2011-04-12, 07:01 AM
Except you dont JUST fire a gun with your hands, hence why fighting in dark spaces provides negatives. Firing a weapon is a complex issue it involves the feel of the weapons kickback, sight to the target..how the sites are leveled on the gun.
As far as im concerned It would be the equivilent of asking someone to shoot the gun while holding it behind them. They can turn there head to look at the target...but cant look down the site...its not a natural position for the gun to be in..so aiming it appropreitly would be off. And you cant get the feel for kickback as well. - 20 at the very VERY least.

And this is on the assumption were allowing it to happen in the first place...which we all know I would not.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-12, 07:48 AM
I dunno, that seems a bit far in the other direction. I'd run it more that it works like Tomb King archers, and just has a flat number to hit instead of using modifiers (Talent penatlies excepted, since a gun you don't know how to fire is going to be a trick regardless), cause the psyker is doing freaky things with his mind. Lasguns and the like don't even have kickback.

Plus, the way you describe it, firing a gun is a precision task :smalltongue:

There's better things to do with PT than have an animate gun following you around, though. Especially if you fail the roll to sustain it and drop the gun at a critical moment. Were I GMing, I would find that hilarious.

profitofrage
2011-04-12, 08:16 AM
Firing the gun is most definably a Precision task. Lifting it isnt. My issue has never been with the firing of the weapon. Its been with the wielding of it.
Precision Telekinesis gives NO limits as to what wieght limits it can take. Its just "assumed" That it replaces the str and toughness characteristics in order to work it out. This I feel is wrong, since picking things up isnt a test..its a defined limit thats derived from your str and T.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-12, 08:34 AM
Oh yeah, the way I've figured that is you just use WP bonus in place of STR and T bonuses and refer to the chart. Anything over the 'carry' limit imposes -10 to all your WP tests and an effective -1 to WP bonus. Basically, replace every instance of any attribute in the Moving and Lifting section with WP. You need at least a bonus of 6 to pick up even a heavy stubber without penalty, and that's one of the lightest heavy weapons.

profitofrage
2011-04-12, 08:39 AM
See that I dont like or even agree works RAW. It says you can use WP in place of any test...NOT to replace characteristic bonuses alltogether. Carry limits isnt based off of passing tests, its a static amount derived from str and T bonuses...things PT does not by RAW allow you to replace just like you couldnt use it to then increase your AG and run really fast.
I.e If it doesnt require a test to pick something up PT cant do it.
This is also the basis as to why it shouldnt be used to push , pull or lift anything at all. As those same things are not done via Str tests...there set limits already defined based on str and Toughness bonuses.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-12, 08:46 AM
Well yeah, replacing your agility to run really fast would be stupid. But this is attempting to pick something up with your mind, and that was the best patch-fix I could think of. Telekinesis should let you pick up much heavier things, but not fire them at that same time.

Though I suppose you could pick them up with Telekinesis and then aim and fire them by manifesting PT with it sustained, but that's a bit clunky.

And technically, you can use a S test to lift something. It allows you to carry more than the normal weight. I think the best way to make Telekinesis still valid with this effect of PT is to allow it to lift your WP bonus x10, and then add an overbleed for an extra 5x per 5 points of overbleed, like Fling has.

profitofrage
2011-04-12, 08:53 AM
Telekenisis is for picking things up with your mind not flinging. I have never ounce believed at all that the PT or straight T powers should be used for combat at all, hence there low thresholds..hence there descriptions...the fact that the telekenetics dicipline already HAS several combat focussed powers.
You cant use S tests to lift things. You could to test to to lift things in excess of your standard "LIFT" limits already defined in the core rulebook.
Telekenisis is a utilitiy and is always valid...because its the utility of NOT NEEDING your hands to do it. In fact you can still lift MUCH more then you could hope to using it.
Precision telekenisis would be valid...as a utility..being able to reach and use keypads..pull pins..set of detpacks e.t.c from a distance. You guys seem instead on encouraging it as a combat power..which I think is wrong.

Fling is what you use if you want to throw things at enemies, Telekenisis is what you use if you want to pick things up. PT is what you use if you want to pull triggers...if the PC wants to go aroundw ith floating shotguns hes going to need to realise that suchs things shouldnt be a pathetically easy roll just to accomplish.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-12, 09:05 AM
Telekenisis is for picking things up with your mind not flinging. I have never ounce believed at all that the PT or straight T powers should be used for combat at all, hence there low thresholds..hence there descriptions...the fact that the telekenetics dicipline already HAS several combat focussed powers.
You cant use S tests to lift things. You could to test to to lift things in excess of your standard "LIFT" limits already defined in the core rulebook.
Telekenisis is a utilitiy and is always valid...because its the utility of NOT NEEDING your hands to do it. In fact you can still lift MUCH more then you could hope to using it.
Precision telekenisis would be valid...as a utility..being able to reach and use keypads..pull pins..set of detpacks e.t.c from a distance. You guys seem instead on encouraging it as a combat power..which I think is wrong.

Fling is what you use if you want to throw things at enemies, Telekenisis is what you use if you want to pick things up. PT is what you use if you want to pull triggers...if the PC wants to go aroundw ith floating shotguns hes going to need to realise that suchs things shouldnt be a pathetically easy roll just to accomplish.

No, that's what I mean. Telekinesis can't be used for combat. Fling can, and it has an overbleed that allows you to pick up heavier objects. Since Telekinesis base has no overbleed, that was just a method of saying "It works like this." Looking at Telekinesis...5kg x WP bonus. That's usually going to work out to 30 or 35. A psyker could lift far more than that by going over and physically picking it up, assuming S and T bonuses of 3 each, which is the average.

Precision Telekinesis has a rather high threshold, actually. 23. Not unmanageable, but still up there. Holocaust's Threshold is the same, and that's a very powerful, though again limited, power. The idea here is not to say PT is for combat only, it really, really isn't. There's so much else you could be doing with it. But if you WANT to pick up a gun and fire it with your mind, it's really the only power that would work to do that.

And actually, looking at the chart, I've thought of another way it could be managed. Count your effective bonus for carrying using PT as 0. That allows lifting up to 0.9kg. Then, you apply the test rule, making a WP test to lift more. Each degree of success allows you to add 1 to your effective score for carrying. You'd need to roll at least 2 degrees of success to be able to pick up most basic ranged weapons, more for particularly heavy ones. Pistols are, of course, lighter. Most of those would require only 1 degree, and I think there's a small handful of weapons that could be lifted without testing at all.

profitofrage
2011-04-12, 09:14 AM
I dont believe that Telekinesis is meant to pick up very heavy things...meerily to pick up things and move them. I agree Telekenisis needs to be improved. But this is my point, the idea that "but without PT you couldnt concievably pick up a gun and fire it with your mind" means nothing to me...as I dont believe this should be done with any one power.
My hombrew if it was to be anyhting, would be to limit PT to the str bonus of 0 or instead instances were wieght is negligable...done..simple...over.
If they want to carry something get Telekinesis (or more accuratly the "improved telekinesis") want to then fire it? use PT while your sustaining it. The increase in threshold difficulty + the rounds required to cast both would in my opinion balance it in my opinion.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-12, 09:45 AM
Not very heavy things, no. But as it's written, Fling is actually better at picking things up than the power designed to pick things up. Make it x10, and add the overbleed for an extra 5kg per point of WP bonus. That ought to fix that nicely.

I didn't say that you couldn't conceivably pick up a gun and fire it without PT. In fact...


Though I suppose you could pick them up with Telekinesis and then aim and fire them by manifesting PT with it sustained, but that's a bit clunky.

The idea is to make it more elegant, take up less time and less rolling and such. I've found that games can get bogged down quickly if there's too much of a focus on rules and rolling, and often the simplest solution is the best one.

As a sidenote... Average roll on 3d10 is ~16-17. With a WP bonus of 5, that fails to manifest PT. With a WP bonus of 6, it might manifest PT. You can use invocation to help, of course, but a power with -4 to cast due to another sustained power isn't going to work all that often when its threshold is already high. If it's balance you're concerned about, let's have a look at what we got, using the 'base score 0' thing I just thought up there.

Guardsman with a lasgun and quick draw, BS 50. Quite reasonable at Rank 4.

vs.

Psyker with a lasgun and Precision Telekinesis, WP 50. Also reasonable at rank 4.

For the purpose of this, initiative doesn't matter. The guardsman sees an enemy, snaps up his lasgun, aims and fires. The target is close, and he's outfitted his lasgun with a red-dot sight. He needs to roll 80 or less to hit his target. On the next round he decides to spray and pray, sacrificing the +10 from the red dot sight to fire semi-auto. 70 or less to hit, extra hits if he rolls 50 or less.

The psyker... well, either he's taken Quick Draw or he hasn't. Let's say he hasn't, he was busy spending his XP on psychic powers. Aiming gets him nothing. Red dot sights also get him nothing. Not if he's using Precision Telekinesis. He uses Invocation to help make the power work properly. If he's a Scholar, he probably has Invocation +10, and needs to roll 60 or under. If not, he needs 50 or under. In his first round he siezes control of his gun with his mind. He tests WP at 50 again, needing 2 degrees of success to manage to lift it. Lasguns are heavy. He has to roll 30 or under for this to actually work. On his next round, he can fire,using his move action to bring the weapon to bear, and his attack commanding it to snap off a shot. He tests WP at 60, because his opponent is close, to see if he hits.


In summary: In the time it takes to manifest PT and use it to fire a lasgun, the psyker rolls either 2 or 3 tests, since Invocation isn't strictly necessary, to gain one chance at 1d10+3 damage. In the time it takes the psyker to do that, the guardsman has already fired twice, once at 80 to hit vs the Psyker's 60, and once at 70 to hit, but with added potential for more damage.

I'd say that's balanced just fine.

profitofrage
2011-04-12, 09:56 AM
I do like your fix for Telekinesis. It needs a range increase with overbleed however...10 meters is just to limiting and it should be possible to increase the distance. making it optional to forgo increasing lift with +5 range should do the trick.


On the topic of PT.
I suppose Ive been thinking about this the wrong way. I have always been a proponant of working out ways to LET PC's do what they want to do. Although I personally really dislike the idea of using PT to wield and fire guns, and that personally I think it doesnt fit the power at all. That doesnt mean we should not allow the PC's at least one method to accomplish there crazy tricks.

Limiting the PT's lifting str to 5Kg limits it to basic weapons while still allowing it to tmanipulate heftier grenades and objects.
further more..add in the clause that comes with Telekinesis that manipulated objects cant be used to strike characters, and that it cannot effect characters. This still allows the gun to be fired...since its not striking an oponant :P the guns firing at the opponant.

What im curious about..is weather or not with these rules - to allow bonuses and penalties associated with BS tests to apply..at the expense of a base - 20 to the test to account for the "difficult" nature of landing the shot.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-12, 10:11 AM
For the overbleed, you could go with a choice version, like you suggest. Every 5 points of overbleed lets you add 10m range, OR lift heavier stuff. 5m just feels a bit underwhelming for what you can do with it.

The way I was figuring it, the Psyker was forgoing the option of getting BS specific bonuses in exchange for keeping his hands free and not getting penalties, either. He's like the Tomb King rule I mentioned earlier, where the skeleton archers always hit on 5+, regardless of cover, range, special rules or otherwise.

The thing I'd be worried about is that one of the examples listed for what PT can do is "direct small projectiles to deadly effect." I don't know exactly how that would work, since they don't really say, but saying you can't strike someone directly with the power goes against that example. I do agree you shouldn't be able to use it to pick up people, though you should certainly be able to use it to pull the pins on their grenades. Incidentally, if they're carrying grenades, this is probably a better option than animating your gun and shooting it at them.

profitofrage
2011-04-12, 10:20 AM
+10 range does make more sense.

I did forget periodically about them keeping there hands free, that settles it. no BS bonuses or penalties to tests.

The way I see that example, is that there "throwing" the object in question. My objective with the no striking rule was to ensure no melee attacks could be made. The idea is that its working the same as Telekinesis, things are moving slowly..floating e.t.c The difference is that with a gun the bullets arnt the objects being manipulated.

It may need additional work...as that actually implies you couldnt throw a grenade.
Perhaps simply make an exception...the PT can be used to launch something under its wieght limit up to its range. This if it hits the target causes "improvised weapon" damage against the target (grenades then exploding)

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-12, 10:26 AM
Better to use Fling for throwing grenades, I think. Lower threshold, and it's easily within what the power can accomplish. With PT you could move the grenade slowly to where you wanted it to be, but with fling you could really launch it at someone. 1d10 damage for getting whacked in the noggin with a grenade, and then more damage when it goes off. Solves the problem of grenades with low blast radius rather nicely, too.

I would think the issue with using PT to make melee attacks wouldn't be hitting the opponent with the floating sword. It'd be the opponent going 'right, Frak this' and grabbing the sword out of the air.

EDIT: You know, I really want to play a Telekine who makes use of the environment now.

profitofrage
2011-04-12, 10:32 AM
That is true.
Very well

summary.

Telekinesis : upgraded to having a limit of 10x willpower bonus. with ever 5 overbleed you can either increase range by +10 or wieght by your willpower bonus in KG

Precision Telekinesis: It can be used to manipulate anything with the effective str bonus of 2, allowing you to lift 9kg objects or push 18kg objects. There is no carry option as...with Telekinesis this is considered as always lifting. Firing the weapon gains none of the BS modifiers to hit, negative or otherwise but counts as a standard attack and can thus be dodged. manipulated objects cannot be used to strike or harm characters, the objects in question moving and hovering slowly and floating back to the ground when concentration is lifted.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-12, 10:41 AM
For the overbleed, on Fling it was WP bonus x5 in KG. I think it should be the same on Telekinesis. Everything else looks fine to me. Let's call these ones done. Are there any other powers you think need fixing? Personally I think Incinerate could use a clarification.

profitofrage
2011-04-12, 10:45 AM
x5kg it is. I suppose in the end if the task called for the lifting of a particularly heavy object..youd probably have the time to invocate as much as you needed anyhow.

Incinerate --> what exactly is your issue? It seems to me it does 1D10 +1 damage, then 1D10+2 damage next round...then 1D10 +3 damage ad infinatum so long as you use up a full round action and keep LOS to the target?

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-12, 10:50 AM
The way it's worded, I'm not sure if you roll every round, or if you roll once when you start using the power and the damage goes up from there. I think it should be roll every round, myself, as you say. I just thought that one needed clarification.

profitofrage
2011-04-12, 10:54 AM
Well its a sustained power with a very short range that cant be increased. I dont think rerolling each round is nessisary. On average its just a very good way of keeping a target on fire, a fire that does on average maybe +6 total damage as I doubt this will actually be kept on anything longer then 3 rounds.
Its a deadly power, but remember that it takes a fullaction to use (meaning your character is immobile) and that any character with more then a 3 ag bonus can just run backwards out of its range.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-12, 10:59 AM
Yeah, it's best against big clunky targets. Or doors. It would burn through a lock or something right quick.

I just don't know for sure how the damage works. Could be one of two ways.

Both start the same. Manifest and focus. 1d10+1 damage. Let's say you roll 5. 6 damage. Next round, do you roll again, doing 1d10+2 damage, or do you just do a straight 7 damage?

profitofrage
2011-04-12, 11:02 AM
OH now i see what you meant by reroll.

by RAW id say it does "the damage of the previous round +1" i.e...if rolled a 6 next round it would do 7. Though I believe it is intended that you reroll for a 1D10+2 e.t.c

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-12, 11:12 AM
Yeah, that's why I think it needs clarifying. Roll each round it is.

Telekinesis has been well covered.

Say, what do you think of Fire Storm?

Surrealistik
2011-04-12, 11:41 AM
No I didn't. I said that if something mentions a bonus to ballistic skill, and you're testing WP, you don't get the bonus. That wasn't the ambiguous bit. The ambiguous bit is what qualifies as a ranged attack in the first place.

That's precisely what you admitted to; it doesn't count as a ranged attack because of WP's substitution for BS (this definition, as you said, being the so-called 'ambiguous' part) and therefore can't be dodged, which is why you felt the need to houserule it as a ranged attack. I think it's fairly obvious that declaring a houserule to have it count as a ranged attack is tantamount to an admission that the RAW classifies attacks as ranged by their employment of a Ballistic Skill Test.


Explain why there is no reason to take them. I think there's plenty of reasons. Some things won't work in some situations. Animating an autocannon is great, unless there doesn't happen to be an autocannon just lying around. Also, an autocannon weighs 55kg. Unless you've got a WP bonus of 8, PT wouldn't be able to lift it, as far as I'm concerned. Though that's another one of those things the rules don't really cover, and would need a GM ruling.

There will always be situations in which something is more useful than something else.

Because I can use Push, because I can use Firestorm, because I can use Biolightning, etc... Because I can use a wide variety of basic and pistol weapons that are straight up better than Fling for damage. If I want to throw or remotely manipulate stuff, I have PT, and only your arbitrary ruling really curtails its application here.

The laughably anaemic net utility of Fling after your nerfs does not support having it take up one of your precious greater power slots by any rational player.


Arbitrary:
–adjective
1. subject to individual will or judgment without restriction; contingent solely upon one's discretion: an arbitrary decision.
2. decided by a judge or arbiter rather than by a law or statute.
3. having unlimited power; uncontrolled or unrestricted by law; despotic; tyrannical: an arbitrary government.
4. capricious; unreasonable; unsupported: an arbitrary demand for payment.

At best, you could go for definition 2, though that's more of a legal thing. There are restrictions. Furthermore, in no way is it rejection of RAW to make psychic powers which require a roll to hit be dodgeable. It's an interpretation. One you disagree with, for reasons you may not like, but them's the breaks.

Thanks for the condescending citation of a definition I clearly understand; 1 and 4 are actually the applicable definitions here.

And yes, it is an explicit rejection of the RAW, and you're clearly wrong on the matter. As you've essentially admitted, ranged attacks are explicitly defined as featuring a Ballistic Skill Test; there is no room for interpretation here.


That's not what I said. What I said is that it not counting as a ranged attack would get houseruled. It can now be dodged. It's not a BS test, so no bonus for you. Balance is fun!

If by balance you mean arbitrary nerfs that defy any sort of verisimilitude (which you do) I disagree. In the meanwhile, it still ignores cover and conditions; I suppose you're going to nerf those qualities too?

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-12, 12:16 PM
That's precisely what you admitted to; it doesn't count as a ranged attack because of WP's substitution for BS (this definition, as you said, being the so-called 'ambiguous' part) and therefore can't be dodged, which is why you felt the need to houserule it as a ranged attack. I think it's fairly obvious that declaring a houserule to have it count as a ranged attack is tantamount to an admission that the RAW classifies attacks as ranged by their employment of a Ballistic Skill Test.

You're the one who thinks 'ranged attack' and "Ballistic Skill' are synonymous, not me.


Because I can use Push, because I can use Firestorm, because I can use Biolightning, etc... Because I can use a wide variety of basic and pistol weapons that are straight up better than Fling for damage. If I want to throw or remotely manipulate stuff, I have PT, and only your arbitrary ruling really curtails its application here.

The laughably anaemic net utility of Fling after your nerfs does not support having it take up one of your precious greater power slots by any rational player.

You've said that before. I didn't believe it then, don't believe it now. As just noted, it can also be used to throw grenades. Profit and I have heavily adjusted PT, by the way. You may not like our clarifications and adjustments, but I do. Shall be using them from now on, I think.


Thanks for the condescending citation of a definition I clearly understand; 1 and 4 are actually the applicable definitions here.

And yes, it is an explicit rejection of the RAW, and you're clearly wrong on the matter. As you've essentially admitted, ranged attacks are explicitly defined as featuring a Ballistic Skill Test; there is no room for interpretation here.

1 and 4 require the decision to be unrestricted or unsupported. It is neither. Ranged attacks and ballistic skill... You're the one who thinks they're synonymous, not me. A 'ranged attack' is, as far as I am concerned, an attack made from a distance. At range, if you will. A Ballistic Skill test is a test made using the BS characteristic. They are not the same, though in most cases they overlap.


If by balance you mean arbitrary nerfs that defy any sort of verisimilitude (which you do) I disagree. In the meanwhile, it still ignores cover and conditions; I suppose you're going to nerf those qualities too?

Thus far, you seem to be the only one who thinks it's destroying versimilitude. I think it adds to it. You're free to disagree, though.

It's welcome to ignore conditions. It doesn't ignore cover. Cover is basically extra armour points to certain locations. It applies to anything that rolls to hit. The RAW implies differently, but I disagree with that interpretation because that makes no sense, and have thus adjusted it.

MickJay
2011-04-12, 12:41 PM
For the record, range of PT is different in RT (Psy rating x 5m instead of flat 10m), and it's Psy rating that's used as ST bonus, not WP bonus.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-12, 12:45 PM
Ah, that's interesting. I haven't played RT at all, and know very little about it. Skimmed the book, thought it seemed an interesting concept, but wasn't really a fan of the higher power settings.

Surrealistik
2011-04-13, 12:03 AM
You're the one who thinks 'ranged attack' and "Ballistic Skill' are synonymous, not me.

I don't think you understand; you just houseruled that attacks made with PT permit dodging, precisely because you admitted that without such a houserule, dodging them would not be possible. This is a clear and evident admission that ranged attacks are defined by a Ballistic Skill Test; there has been no alternate reason provided as to why an attack made with PT would not permit dodging.


You've said that before. I didn't believe it then, don't believe it now. As just noted, it can also be used to throw grenades. Profit and I have heavily adjusted PT, by the way. You may not like our clarifications and adjustments, but I do. Shall be using them from now on, I think.

Except PT can also be used to toss grenades, and can do a host of other things, thus leaving Fling pointless. Please, enlighten me, tell me how Fling has such merit and value, given its absolute deficit of even an appreciable circumstantial niche, that of the few powers you can access, it deserves being picked over the likes of Seal Wounds, Precision Telekinesis, Force Barrage, Preternatural Awareness, Dominate and the like? The fact is it has no real use. PT owns its niche, and does it better, without invoking house rules. There is no reason to pick this power, and if you feel otherwise, please justify your claims with _valid_ arguments.


1 and 4 require the decision to be unrestricted or unsupported. It is neither. Ranged attacks and ballistic skill... You're the one who thinks they're synonymous, not me. A 'ranged attack' is, as far as I am concerned, an attack made from a distance. At range, if you will. A Ballistic Skill test is a test made using the BS characteristic. They are not the same, though in most cases they overlap.


To the contrary, it is both unrestricted and unsupported. Your definition of 'ranged attack' has no basis in the rules, whereas in absolute contrast, mine does. It says, under the Ranged Attack entry, page 195, and I quote:

"Ranged attacks - lasguns, scatterguns, thrown weapons, etc - are resolved in the same way as melee attacks, except that you Test Ballistic Skill instead of Weapon Skill. In addition, there are a few extra considerations that apply to these attacks."

It then goes on to list rule elements that have nothing to do with Psychic Powers. You are clearly and irrevocably wrong, and when it comes to an interpretation of the text, your ruling is entirely arbitrary and divorced from the RAW. Your ruling only fails to be arbitrary in so far as you employ the definition of 'ranged attack' in the most general, conventional sense that has exactly nothing to do with the rules as stated.


Thus far, you seem to be the only one who thinks it's destroying versimilitude. I think it adds to it. You're free to disagree, though.

It's welcome to ignore conditions. It doesn't ignore cover. Cover is basically extra armour points to certain locations. It applies to anything that rolls to hit. The RAW implies differently, but I disagree with that interpretation because that makes no sense, and have thus adjusted it.

First off, I again want to restate and emphasize that you acknowledged that as per the RAW, attacks made with PT cannot be dodged, hence you feeling the need to houserule that they can be, and that this constitutes a blatant admission that Ranged Attacks are defined by Ballistic Skill Tests. This is because you have provided no alternate reason for the lack of 'dodgability' to the RAW that they are disqualified as ranged attacks due to Testing WP instead of BS.

Second, so it ignores autofire, darkness, weather conditions, unaware targets, size, shooting into melee combat, fog and shadow, etc... basically every modifier under the sun, and yet is impeded by cover and dodging, and this somehow doesn't destroy verisimilitude? In fact, you think it _adds_ to it? Seriously? {{scrubbed}}

profitofrage
2011-04-13, 12:06 AM
I think we should perhaps move on, as its clear your not convincing anyone Surrealistik just as none of us seem to be able to convince you.

Since Incinerate doesnt seem to be an issue just using the RAI version are there any other issue causing powers?

Surrealistik
2011-04-13, 12:15 AM
{{Scrubbed}}

profitofrage
2011-04-13, 02:01 AM
In all due respect Surrealistik I am of the opinion that you are in fact the one who is very much incorrect. Your making just as liberal an interpretation of the rules as any of us did, except we admit that they are exactly that interpretation...where as you seem to believe you are completly right with no room to budge. For example...PT has no lift limit at all..since tests arnt used to determine carry limits. Yet your interpretation is that it replaces the stats..and thus the bonuses.

As I said I think we should move on, since were not getting anywhere trying to convince you.

Sarco_Phage
2011-04-13, 02:04 AM
You and Destro cannot convince me because you're both wrong, and make staggeringly liberal (and incorrect) interpretations of the rules that have infinitely more to do with what you feel the rules should be rather than with what they actually are.

I have only one face for this.

:smallamused:

Jesus guys, this is like one rule and you're getting massively snappish.

profitofrage
2011-04-13, 02:06 AM
More so its a Rule weve already moved past.
And I woudln't say that me or Destro have been "snappy" during all of this. Especially Destro who has (unless i missed something) done nothing but be civil.

Ill update the first post with the updated homebrew shortly.

Are there any other powers worth mentioning?

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-13, 07:38 AM
More so its a Rule weve already moved past.
And I woudln't say that me or Destro have been "snappy" during all of this. Especially Destro who has (unless i missed something) done nothing but be civil.

Ill update the first post with the updated homebrew shortly.

Are there any other powers worth mentioning?

Fire Storm might be. It's unavoidable damage that you can drop pretty much anywhere you like. Divine Shot and Seal Wounds are pretty heavily abuseable too. I can think of some pretty good quick fixes for those, though.

Fire Storm: Change its overbleed to be like Bio-Lightning's. 5 gets you an extra 10m range, though you may not need it that much, and 10 gets you extra damage. Reduce the Threshold to 14 to compensate.

Divine Shot: Honestly, the only thing I can think of for this is increasing the threshold. It lets you hit unavoidably with any weapon you're carrying. Put it up to 23. Such a powerful effect deserves it.

Seal Wounds: Since this is essentially an upgraded Healer, change it to be more in line with that power. Only works safely every 6 hours. Otherwise, toughness test or take 1d10 points of damage that ignore toughness and armour. To maintain the upgrade, though, allow for a WP test in which each dgree of success reduces the amount of time needed before it can be used again by one hour.

profitofrage
2011-04-13, 09:35 AM
Fire storm is a bit powerful. I like your fix for it though.

Devine shot now this I dont think is to broken for a couple of reasons.

1) yes its pretty meaty...however you soon realise that it can only garentee 1 hit..just one so no automatic weapon abuse.

2) It doesnt roll a hit for that single shot...this means no degrees of success alongside it, this means accurate weapons abuse isnt in play which leaves

3) the only major abuse that could occur is using a heavy weapon with this..garenteeing hte huge amounts of damage. However the fact the target has to carry the weapon e.t.c and still brace it as per rules for firing means that its still only pumping out a shot a round sooner then the heavy weapons guy.

Its main benefits is the fact it cant be dodged. But if theres no LOS to the target then its mute. Its a strong power no question...but I dont think increasing its threshold is the answer. Instead Id have it as a full action. Making it in effect a full round aim that bypasses dodge e.t.c It would also mean youd have a chance to escape its shot by getting out of site.

Seal wounds I think your fix is nice enough, its reasonable yet still better then anything the medic can pump out if your willing to take risks.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-13, 09:44 AM
It's not automatic weapons I'm worried about with Divine shot. It's heavy weapons. Imagine what happens if a psyker with that power gets his hands on a lascannon, or a meltagun. Plasmagun, even. On the cheaper end of the scale, there's still rocket launchers and grenade launchers.

On Bracing: You can fire a heavy weapon without bracing, at -30 to hit, but only on single shot, a fact that this power is custom-tailored to abuse. Since the shot automatically hits, the penalty means nothing.

On Action Type: Since Psychic powers count as your attack action for the turn, you can't use it and fire the gun on the same turn anyways. It already takes two rounds to get the free hit, unless you take the wording to mean that you use the power and fire the gun simultaneously. Which might be the intent, though I'm not sure with the errata.

profitofrage
2011-04-13, 09:56 AM
Ah you raise many good points there.

I was assuming that if we were to make it a full action it would count towards "the next shot fired" thus fixing that issue.
The heavy weapons I never really think is an issue...I mean..If you have managed to get ahold of a lazcannon...Divine shot isnt going to make it any more of an EXTREMLY DEADLY LAZAR! I say let the PC's have there big toys and go nuts with them.

Though the issue still remains with grenades and other less wtf heavy weapons. Really you cant alter it to much or else...why have the power? Perhaps bump up the threshold to coincide with its power?

Surrealistik
2011-04-13, 10:05 AM
In all due respect Surrealistik I am of the opinion that you are in fact the one who is very much incorrect. Your making just as liberal an interpretation of the rules as any of us did, except we admit that they are exactly that interpretation...where as you seem to believe you are completly right with no room to budge.

Sorry, how is a literalistic interpretation of the RAW in anyway 'as liberal an interpretation' as essentially disregarding it entirely?


For example...PT has no lift limit at all..since tests arnt used to determine carry limits. Yet your interpretation is that it replaces the stats..and thus the bonuses.

As I said I think we should move on, since were not getting anywhere trying to convince you.

Except that BS is tested to throw weaponry (WP substitution works here), and at the very least, you can 'manipulate objects as if you were handling them' which means it can throw objects.



More so its a Rule weve already moved past.
And I woudln't say that me or Destro have been "snappy" during all of this. Especially Destro who has (unless i missed something) done nothing but be civil.


Hardly. Destro has been presumptuous and condescending all throughout, entirely without any cause or reason, particularly when his arguments completely lack any sort of merit, but of course you'd say otherwise.

profitofrage
2011-04-13, 10:20 AM
1) only you believe we are disregarding them entirely...this is wrong, were making alternate interpretations to you which you seem to attack.

2) Except Thats not what the description for PT stats in DH thats RT your thinking about there. In Dark heresy there is no mention of your hands or any other method for which the power is used. More over, if you want to get technical..HANDS dont throw things..or lift things. There your arms. Hands simply hold said object. If anything that would support my view that they shouldnt have a str characteristic.

3) If you really want to go down that road, it was most definably you who started the condescending attitude. In fact I remember much the same thing from the previous thread you were apart of. Im not going to get personal here because frankly It serves no purpose, I would just like to remind you that we have CLEARLY moved on. If you dont want to agree? fine..thats your god given right, but dont hang around in the thread dragging on something everyone else has dropped because you think you have something to prove.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-13, 10:23 AM
Ah you raise many good points there.

I was assuming that if we were to make it a full action it would count towards "the next shot fired" thus fixing that issue.
The heavy weapons I never really think is an issue...I mean..If you have managed to get ahold of a lazcannon...Divine shot isnt going to make it any more of an EXTREMLY DEADLY LAZAR! I say let the PC's have there big toys and go nuts with them.

Though the issue still remains with grenades and other less wtf heavy weapons. Really you cant alter it to much or else...why have the power? Perhaps bump up the threshold to coincide with its power?

Yeah, that's what I figured. 23 might be a bit on the upper end, but that was just my starting point.

I don't have any issues with the PCs having an Extremely Deadly Lazor, if they've managed to get ahold of one, just the ability to make said Lazor completely unavoidable with relative ease.

Hmmm. What say we bump the threshold to 23, which should be difficult but manageable for most psykers, make it a half action so you can at least still do something else on the same turn (invocation, perhaps, if you really need the power to work) and leave it like that?

That way it takes the psyker two rounds to fire off an unavoidable shot, which seems balanced when compared to the Heavy Weapon Guy's ability to fire an avoidable shot once per round.

profitofrage
2011-04-13, 10:27 AM
Actually because both focus power and invocate count as "standard attacks" or whatever the errata says, you cant do both in one round.
But in any case I like the fix.
And I agree I cant think of many things scarier in DH then a Diviner with a lazcannon....except maybe one with a Lazcanon......NO wait A diviner with a lazcanon...and one of those Adeptus Mechanicus floating disks for which to set it up on...*shivers*

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-13, 10:33 AM
The errata just says that Focus Power is the psychic equivalent of a standard attack. Nothing about Invocation. I checked, though, and you're right, thinking you could use them both in one round was my mistake. An invocation test is a full action, not a half action. No idea why I thought otherwise.

You could brace the heavy weapon as your half action, though, eliminating the penalty for subsequent bouts of non-divinely inspired shooting. This would be especially effective with a fully automatic weapon, as only one of the shots hits automatically anyways.

Though really, what you want for an Automatic heavy weapon is unnatural aim. Generic +30 to hit is very shiny when combined with that.

profitofrage
2011-04-13, 10:39 AM
Yes I knew the Errata updated it somehow.
I suppose with devine shot you wouldnt need to brace it as RAW. But should we homebrew that you have to? I mean lets look at the Heavy weapons...Most of them the psyker cant even pick up unless they just ignore there willpower stat.
That leaves them things like missle launchers and RPG's to abuse. RPG's...arnt all that powerful, a fully automatic weapon will on average cause more hurt then a Krak grenade.
A missle isnt dreadfully better either and both weapons have to be reloaded so its not like he can pull this off everyturn.
I think the fixes we have a rather balanced for Divine shot ( and by we I mean you :P)

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-13, 11:09 AM
Better to leave it as we have it, I think. You can brace it, but you don't need to. Most heavy weapons, a psyker might take penalties for carrying them, but that's because they're really heavy. Remember lifting is based on a combination of S and T scores. Of course, they don't get any Heavy Weapon Training talents outside of Elite advances or the occasional alternate rank. So yeah, I think it's balanced as we got it.

While we're on the subject of Errata, though, the Errata for Psychic Blade makes no sense. It states that on a roll of 95-100 a stray thought causes the psyker to attack and automatically strike the nearest being in melee range, or if there are several the one most significant to his emotional state, or if there are none, himself. BUT, and this is a big but, here, Psychic Blade is a melee power. Its range is you, and you have to be in melee to use it. So rolling poorly means you automatically hit the closest enemy. I think that should be changed so that rolling 95-100 means you automatically hit yourself. Works better as a balancing factor that way.

Surrealistik
2011-04-13, 11:12 AM
1) only you believe we are disregarding them entirely...this is wrong, were making alternate interpretations to you which you seem to attack.

Because you _are_ disregarding the RAW entirely. This is evident by the complete divorce between what the RAW says, and what your 'interpretation' is. Hell, I even broke down the rule explicitly using direct quotations complete with references to demonstrate word for word just how this 'interpretation' is entirely incorrect, and still you believe it to be legitimate.


2) Except Thats not what the description for PT stats in DH thats RT your thinking about there. In Dark heresy there is no mention of your hands or any other method for which the power is used. More over, if you want to get technical..HANDS dont throw things..or lift things. There your arms. Hands simply hold said object. If anything that would support my view that they shouldnt have a str characteristic.

Except I'm not; I am referring to DH. The passage is in there; please review the entry before you continue to make baseless statements.

Second to reiterate, it states 'as if you were physically handling them', not that you're prohibited to doing only things you could do with your hands.


3) If you really want to go down that road, it was most definably you who started the condescending attitude. In fact I remember much the same thing from the previous thread you were apart of. Im not going to get personal here because frankly It serves no purpose, I would just like to remind you that we have CLEARLY moved on. If you dont want to agree? fine..thats your god given right, but dont hang around in the thread dragging on something everyone else has dropped because you think you have something to prove.

Destro, and I recall you being both condescending, indignant and hostile yourself when I was trying simply to keep things factual.

Anyways, good luck attempting to fix this broken and poorly written ruleset. I've moved on myself; to other, better systems.

profitofrage
2011-04-13, 11:23 AM
We arnt, the rules say you swap any characteristic test you may need for WP. Lifting is not covered by Str tests thus PT cannot lift, push or pull.
your "breaking it down" was just the assumption that WP replaces the characteristic completly and in all regards...which it does not do by RAW.

Except you WERE, you said specifically that it "allows you to manipulate it as if you were using your hands" This is wrong, it doesnt say that at all It says something more ambiguous which furthers the argument that there are many ways to interpret the description.

You are the ONLY person who seems to keep wanting to drag this back up, I have as polightly as I can, tried to remain civil..move the thread forward and end this rather pointless argument with you.
I am very confident that were we to have outside opinion on who was being "condescending and hostile" the finger would certainly point to you and not me or Destro. Im uncertain as to the Forum rules regarding people who seem to only want to argue in a hostile and disruptive manor..but im fairly certain there against it. As I said before, If you dont agree thats fine, you dont have to follow these homebrew rules...but unless you have something constructive to put forward towards the homebrew of powers we have moved onto or other powers to suggest need fixing, your comments are better placed somewhere else.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-13, 11:30 AM
Hey Profit, any opinion on the Psychic Blade errata fix I mentioned above?

Ranos
2011-04-13, 11:32 AM
You're not talking about the same thing. Surrealistik's been talking about PT attacks technically not being ranged attacks, with all that implies, and you've been talking about WP not replacing STR bonus for carrying. Both of which are right.

Surrealistik
2011-04-13, 11:32 AM
We arnt, the rules say you swap any characteristic test you may need for WP. Lifting is not covered by Str tests thus PT cannot lift, push or pull.
your "breaking it down" was just the assumption that WP replaces the characteristic completly and in all regards...which it does not do by RAW.

'As if you were handling it' means as if you were holding and manipulating it. At most literal, this means you would use your S/T for the purposes of determining carrying capacity and lifting, but you could nonetheless carry and throw items with PT.

Second the quoted rules passage clearly demonstrates that ranged attacks are explicitly defined by a Ballistic Skill Test and you do not make a Ballistic Skill Test with an attack through PT, therefore it does not classify as a ranged attack. Clear as crystal, no room for interpretation. It's not a matter of WP replacing BS 'completely and in all regards', it's a matter of there not being a Ballistic Skill Test period to define it as a ranged attack. Again, this is why all Psychic Powers in general cannot be dodged.

EDIT: Thanks for clarifying this to him Ranos.


Except you WERE, you said specifically that it "allows you to manipulate it as if you were using your hands" This is wrong, it doesnt say that at all It says something more ambiguous which furthers the argument that there are many ways to interpret the description.

Incorrect:


Except that BS is tested to throw weaponry (WP substitution works here), and at the very least, you can 'manipulate objects as if you were handling them' which means it can throw objects.


You are the ONLY person who seems to keep wanting to drag this back up, I have as polightly as I can, tried to remain civil..move the thread forward and end this rather pointless argument with you.
I am very confident that were we to have outside opinion on who was being "condescending and hostile" the finger would certainly point to you and not me or Destro.

Your confidence counts for nothing in light of the truth, namely that you and Destro have been every bit as condescending, hostile and belittling as I have, if not more so.

profitofrage
2011-04-13, 11:32 AM
AH yes, I believe your fix definably suits it well enough though I think an extra clause should be applicable.
Its obvious by the nature of the wording that the authors indeed wanted at least a slight chance that an alley or "person most significant to the psykers feelings" be struck by the power. So rather then it JUST striking himself allow it to either strike himself or someone who is also significant to them emotionally.

EDIT:
Surrealistik, I think you should move on to another thread its clear you have nothing to bring to this one.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-13, 11:45 AM
Yeah, there is that. Hmmm. We could always make it into a moral conundrum for the player. They have the option of striking their friend, or they can attempt a WP test to take the damage themselves.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-16, 09:09 AM
Actually, I think the best option for Psychic Blade would just be this:

If you roll 95-00 on a test to hit with this power, not only do you miss, but a stray thought causes the power to lash out at something else nearby. Randomize the hit between everything in range other than your original target, including other opponents, allies, and yourself. If the only target in range is your original target, you automatically strike yourself.

profitofrage
2011-04-16, 09:10 AM
That does sound far better then what I had in mind. Its simple to the point and accomplishes what we want of it.

Destro_Yersul
2011-04-16, 07:49 PM
I think that might be everything for now, actually. Can't think of any other immediately broken powers off the top of my head.

The Glyphstone
2011-04-16, 07:52 PM
Since this seems to the DH-line psychics thread - can Astropaths or Navigators from RT be as broken as Sanctioned Psykers?

Ranos
2011-04-16, 08:31 PM
No, actually. Astropaths may be more stable than sanctionned psykers, but I can't think of any broken powers on their part. They do get nice things, but they don't get broken. The one power I'm a bit leery about is Foreshadow though.


Navigators are pretty one-note. They can be huge tactical nukes that will flay anything around them alive, but beyond that, their powers are pretty lackluster.

Theo Hammond
2011-04-18, 07:07 AM
Personally i'm still reeling from the realisation that you can't use a Fate Point to rerolls the Perils of the Warp result! It makes sense though thinking about it though, said Perils are more akin to a 'side effect' of utilising your warpy brain than anything the PC has any active control over.

May still keep it as a House Rule that you can though. After all my last game had 2 psykers in the party and even with using FPs on the Perils tests things got pretty hairy. Without them...yeah, i think this Ref prefers the helping hand of Fate!

(Thinking about it we may have been a little 'loose' with FPs all over regarding what we could use them on - game felt tough enough that it didn't feel like cheating!).



Also i was trying to think what we did with dodging psychic attacks and i 'think' we didn't apply any combat modifiers to them and didn't allow dodging. Not down to intense scrutinising of rules or any arguements about it, that just seemed like how we should do it following our first play through of the system. It seemed to work that way, no one got bothered by it working that way, so we just carried on. I imagine we'll query it round the table once we play again for our next go-around and go by whatever the group consensus is happy with at that time. I guess i'm lucky having a group that can reliably do that (and we're always mindful that whatever the PC's can dish out they can also be on the recieving end of - that often helps moderate things).

Didn't know about Focus Power counting as an Attack though. I distinctly recall one of the psykers at least regular casting something and shooting his gun in the same round. Was sure i had the errata too, must have just missed that bit.