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Darth Stabber
2011-03-21, 10:53 AM
So in some systems a character can be shot 27 times and still be fighting, in others a papercut poses a serious risk to a character's continued existance. So we are talking about lethality, which systems have more/less, and the effects it has on roleplaying (in character design, character personality and encounter planning/reactions)

First off we must define lethality, and I have a hard time pinning that term down. My current definition is "the likelyhood of one die roll to end a character that is otherwise unharmed." It's not perfect, and that is something I would like help in refining. Keep in mind that instances of character death are not neccessarily good indicators.

Secondly, How do we recognize it. If the term "Rocket Tag" is applied, you can bet that the lethality is probably high. Also if initiative is one of the biggest determinants of victory, you have alot. Conversely if combat tends to last several round, or if being out numbered is of little consequence, then we can estimate that it is rather low. Realism is usually purportional to lethality (since real humans are killed by 1-2 sword blows or gunshots, and surviving the first one still means some level of incapacitation)

Thirdly we need to pin down what the lethality level of the various systems we on this board play. Examples: D&D 4e has very low lethality (exception minions) in that players can usually continue a fight for some time, and a single die roll is nearly inconsequential over the course of one fight. On the other end L5R is very lethal, a good hit from a katana is likely to incapacitate a character, whether they are dead or not, due to the influence of wound penalties.

Fourth is what effect does this have on play? If the lethality is high, we note an increased importance on avoiding combat, going first, and attacking from hiding. If lethality is low, stealth matters less since you can just take the hit, and begin fighting, Initiative matters little since again you can just suck it up, and characters are more easily goaded into a fight. How does it affect you, your character, and you groups planning.

Finally, do you prefer higher or lower lethality. Do you mind the fact that your character could easily be ganked, since the enemy is done in almost as easily? Or do you want your character to have that resiliance and lack of fear of death, to keep forging on?

Yora
2011-03-21, 11:11 AM
Both 2nd and 3rd Ed. of D&D are very deadly at low levels, especially 1st and 2nd. A single hit can put most characters into the negatives, if they are unlucky. Later, lethality becomes much lower and unless the dm picks the wrong monsters by accident, you're expected to take a lot of hits without being in any danger.

Teln
2011-03-21, 11:11 AM
Exalted: Surprisingly lethal. About the only thing keeping the combat system from shattering horribly is the fact that there are several ways to make yourself immune to different types of damage. A truly minmaxed character will activate all of them at once, if he can get away with it. If you squint, mana pools can be seen as a substitute for health.

As a result, the official forum is stuffed to the brim with minmaxers, and they consider lack of a "paranoia Combo" to be evidence of a secret death-wish on the part of your character. Any attempt at instituting a "gentleman's agreement" to avoid paranoia combat is greeted with scorn. Jon Chung, one of "paranoia combat"'s main proponents, makes no secret that he considers all such agreements to be inevitably doomed to failure.

Thankfully, other Exalted communities (including the one on this very board) tend to be much more reasonable.

Kurald Galain
2011-03-21, 11:18 AM
Introducting... Kurald's Scale of Lethality!

(1) does the game have common one-hit-kill moves?
(2) are the monsters substantially more powerful than you are?
(3) do you have a low amount of hit points against regular attacks?
(4) does the game lack a resurrection power?

Do the math from here. YMMV as to the examples, of course; ultimately, the DM has a big influence on how lethal things are.

Rank 4, lethal. Example: Call of Chtulhu
Rank 3, dangerous. Example: 2E; Paranoia; Cyberpunk; Werewolf
Rank 2, average. Example: 3E; Vampire
Rank 1, safe. Example: 4E; Toon


Since I just made this up five minutes ago, feedback welcome.

Gnaeus
2011-03-21, 11:20 AM
First off we must define lethality, and I have a hard time pinning that term down. My current definition is "the likelyhood of one die roll to end a character that is otherwise unharmed." It's not perfect, and that is something I would like help in refining. Keep in mind that instances of character death are not neccessarily good indicators.

Secondly, How do we recognize it. If the term "Rocket Tag" is applied, you can bet that the lethality is probably high. Also if initiative is one of the biggest determinants of victory, you have alot. Conversely if combat tends to last several round, or if being out numbered is of little consequence, then we can estimate that it is rather low. Realism is usually purportional to lethality (since real humans are killed by 1-2 sword blows or gunshots, and surviving the first one still means some level of incapacitation)

I would probably go with something like: The chance that important characters (PCs, major NPCs) can be killed or maimed in fights with low level peons. Most of the time, this can be directly compared to the randomness in the system. In D&D, the chance that a first level character can kill an 8th level character is essentially 0. It doesn't matter who gets the initiative or rolls a crit. In other games, it is all about the dice rolls.

It isn't really about 1 die roll. In rolemaster, for example, there is the roll to hit, then the crit chart roll. Then after that one stuns you for 5 rounds, there may be several more rolls before you get the fatality. In some modern games, being sprayed with bullets could result in a whole bunch of different rolls.

Yora
2011-03-21, 11:22 AM
I've often heard that shadowrun is very deadly. As a result or gang of eight toughened mercenaries was always extremely careful to have several escape routes, sniper-support, and hidden surveilance bots just to have the infiltration specialist walk by the locked up warehouse and take a peek through the gate. :smallbiggrin:

Saph
2011-03-21, 11:22 AM
You should probably factor in the ease of resurrection magic, too.

D&D 3.5 (Low levels): High lethality. It's easy to get one-shotted, and you're unlikely to be coming back.

D&D 3.5 (Medium to high levels): Medium lethality. Combat against level-appropriate enemies is still just as deadly, but there are more defences and fallbacks, such as resurrection magic.

D&D 4.0: Low lethality. It's very rare for a character to die, and resurrection is cheap and easy if they do. I've yet to see a TPK.

Dark Heresy: High lethality. Gruesome critical hit tables that range from 'minor inconvenience' to 'permanently maimed' to 'instakill'. The only reason it isn't Very High lethality is Fate Points, which effectively give you a few extra lives.

Star Wars d6: High lethality. Roll a 1 on your wild dice for a Strength check when shot by a blaster, and you're probably down and dying. Heavy weapons and lightsabers are usually an instant kill.

Star Wars Saga: Medium lethality. A blaster bolt is surprisingly deadly (one Stormtrooper has about a 5% chance of one-shotting a starting character) but it's fairly difficult to actually die once you're on the ground, and you always have Destiny Points.

Mutants and Masterminds: Very low lethality. By default, the most that can be done with regular attacks is for you to be knocked out, and the book pretty much explicitly says that the heroes aren't supposed to die except in very unusual circumstances.

Old World of Darkness: High lethality. One-hit kills are practically standard. Our first Vampire game ended with the supposed leader of our coterie getting both barrels of a shotgun blast to his face while sleeping. :smalltongue:

The Rose Dragon
2011-03-21, 11:23 AM
Jon Chung, one of "paranoia combat"'s main proponents, makes no secret that he considers all such agreements to be inevitably doomed to failure.

This is... misleading. Jon Chung doesn't play Exalted using Storyteller, precisely because of how lethal the game is, and how that lethality does not fit well with the setting as written. He is not a proponent of the so-called "paranoia combat", he is just the most vocal person to bring it up. He is probably one of the people who would rather see the lethality issue fixed the most.

Terraoblivion
2011-03-21, 11:25 AM
What about highly lethal games like L5R that doesn't have a resurrection power, Kurald? Actually, is there all that many non-D&D games that have any kind of resurrection powers? Not sure I can think of any, now that I think about it.

Darth Stabber
2011-03-21, 11:26 AM
Both 2nd and 3rd Ed. of D&D are very deadly at low levels, especially 1st and 2nd. A single hit can put most characters into the negatives, if they are unlucky. Later, lethality becomes much lower and unless the dm picks the wrong monsters by accident, you're expected to take a lot of hits without being in any danger.

Taking hits sure, but wizard's don't hit you, they ray or touch you. Mid level D&D is lower lethality. High level D&D is just as deadly as low level, you're just playing with different toys. Read any discussion on scry&die, or similar Rocket Tag related tactics and you will see that disjuction and disintegrate are at high levels what greatswords were at low levels.

Darth Stabber
2011-03-21, 11:32 AM
What about highly lethal games like L5R that doesn't have a resurrection power, Kurald? Actually, is there all that many non-D&D games that have any kind of resurrection powers? Not sure I can think of any, now that I think about it.

OWoD Nuwisha and Gurahl had them (but they both ate permanent gnosis, making it a bit too painful to do often). Demon: the Fallen, death was more of a setback than an end, unless someone had some weird power that made you deader than dead. It's really hard to permanently kill a demon.

Ironclaw I believe had one under white magic, but the difficulty was horrendous if I recall correctly.

L5R second edition had one, but it was Maho (evil magic). It also made you intelligent undead, as opposed to alive, so it probably doesn't count.

A couple of systems have some form of self ressurecting shenanigans (ie you come back to life, but lose this advantage or some similar nonsense).

There are probably more, but I can't come up with them right now.

Kurald Galain
2011-03-21, 11:43 AM
What about highly lethal games like L5R that doesn't have a resurrection power, Kurald? Actually, is there all that many non-D&D games that have any kind of resurrection powers?
Let's see.

Most "gritty" or "realistic" games don't have resurrection period.

Most "fantasy" or "pulp" games have some manner of resurrection, although it's generally difficult. For example, in Mage: the Ascension you can resurrect people with sufficient dots in Life and Spirit. In a scifi game you could arguably clone someone or come up with a healing tank or regeneration module. Even in Call of Chtulhu, you could probably find some dark magic ritual that does this, although it's probably a really bad idea to try.

And some games make it really easy, such as by giving the ability for free multiple times per day to a mid-level cleric. In certain other games your character is capable of resurrecting himself (e.g. Demon: the Fallen, where you can find a new host body). Paranoia also falls in this category, because you get some free clones from Friend Computer.

Gnoman
2011-03-21, 12:34 PM
D20 modern is pretty lethal at lower levels (with firearm combat, one or two hits, max). Higher levels seem to help, but a machine gun is dangerous to anybody.

Cartigan
2011-03-21, 12:48 PM
D&D 4.0: Low lethality. It's very rare for a character to die, and resurrection is cheap and easy if they do. I've yet to see a TPK.

I've had 1 TPK and near TPKs in the first set of D&D Encounters.
And I have no idea where the cheap easy resurrection is.

Tyndmyr
2011-03-21, 12:54 PM
D20 modern is pretty lethal at lower levels (with firearm combat, one or two hits, max). Higher levels seem to help, but a machine gun is dangerous to anybody.

Or snipers. A double-tap with a .50 is basically a SoD for anyone, even aside from the considerable hp damage.

Yeah, D20M can be rather lethal indeed.

subject42
2011-03-21, 01:21 PM
Introducting... Kurald's Scale of Lethality!

(1) does the game have common one-hit-kill moves?
(2) are the monsters substantially more powerful than you are?
(3) do you have a low amount of hit points against regular attacks?
(4) does the game lack a resurrection power?
(5) Is the game "Human Occupied Landfill"?

Do the math from here. YMMV as to the examples, of course; ultimately, the DM has a big influence on how lethal things are.

Rank 5, Human Occupied Landfill
Rank 4, lethal. Example: Call of Chtulhu
Rank 3, dangerous. Example: 2E; Paranoia; Cyberpunk; Werewolf
Rank 2, average. Example: 3E; Vampire
Rank 1, safe. Example: 4E; Toon


Since I just made this up five minutes ago, feedback welcome.

I think that small fix pretty much covers it.

wormwood
2011-03-21, 01:22 PM
Let's see.
Even in Call of Chtulhu, you could probably find some dark magic ritual that does this, although it's probably a really bad idea to try.

I believe the spell is called Jar of Resurrection (or something like that) and to make it work, you first have to cremate the body. It only works on a jar full of ashes. The catch? There's a command word as part of the spell that can be spoken at any time afterward to turn the newly resurrected guy back into a big pile of dust. Naturally, there's significant sanity loss involved in reading, learning, and casting the spell. Hell, I think there's san loss involved just for knowing that someone has been resurrected through use of the spell.

Xefas
2011-03-21, 01:39 PM
Free Market is an interesting case. When you die, your brain patterns are transferred into a new, perfectly identical body automatically. It takes a certain amount of time to "print" your new body from the matter printers, and your memories don't always come back completely intact.

One might say it's impossible to "truly" die. On the other hand, does your string of consciousness transfer as well? Do we have a Star Trek Teleporter Problem here? Are you really and truly dead and now this new guy hanging out with your friends is just a 100% identical clone? Does the fact that your character's entire personality and memories could have been rewritten multiple times up until this point make a difference? What if you were a Blank to begin with (a person whose original body was printed, rather than birthed, and whose brain, personality, and memories were just a random mash up of other people in the space station)?

It might have 0 lethality or it might have a ton (it's pretty damn easy to "die"), depending on your philosophy. If you believe in a "Soul", then your characters can go from completely healthy to dead instantly, and you're just "rerolling" a soulless monster-clone, a new (but identical) character every time. If you believe that the tech is powerful enough to transfer consciousness, or that consciousness is an arbitrary distinction to begin with, then I suppose you're functionally immortal.

obliged_salmon
2011-03-21, 02:07 PM
Hmm...lots of examples so far, but not many have commented on how it affects gameplay.

Some that haven't been mentioned.

Serenity: high lethality. One really good shot can put almost anyone down. Gameplay notes - players tend to walk softly, not get into fights or talk their way out of them. Combat is a BIG DEAL.

In Nomine: low lethality (for angels and demons at least). Even if your body is killed, you just respawn in heaven or hell. Gameplay notes - players tend to go looking for fights (the setting is all about celestial warfare anyhow).

Burning Wheel: moderate lethality. One really good hit can put you down, but wounding to incapacitation is much more common. So is running away or surrendering. Gameplay notes - actions rely on character beliefs and skills. A good fighter will be willing to get into combat, but a scholar will shy away.

Mouse Guard: moderate lethality. You explicitly need to say "death is on the line" as a player in order to have death on the line. Gameplay notes - combat works mechanically the same way as any other significant conflict, so it's a pretty standard thing. Especially in the life of a guardmouse.

7th Sea: low lethality. Explicitly in the rules, characters can't die due to combat. Gameplay notes - combat galore! Derring-do and chandelier swinging ahoy.

Asmayus
2011-03-21, 02:37 PM
Shadowrun 4th edition is pretty lethal. Combat plays out like this:

Roll to hit. You usually do, bullets being hard to dodge.

Roll to see if you punch holes in your opponent's armour. You usually do, bullets being powerful.

Roll to see how much damage these bullets do. It's usually considerable, bullets being bullets.

The trick to surviving? Win initiative, and wear plenty of armour. We've got two healers to keep the team on it's feet.

So then:

Lethality: High. Death of PC's in a single round of combat is possible. In our campagain, we've had a few close calls but no fatalities as of yet. We keep getaway transport nearby (usually several vehicles, backup is always good!)

Effect on gameplay: Positive. I say positive because the dynamics of the game have changed from DND4's happy coloured "couldn't kill myself if I tried" world (even when you fight zombie hordes) to a more serious tone where you need to think before pulling that gun.

We discovered we all like a little risk, a little danger -you know, something to make you feel like this fight matters, that succeeding here might prevent further combat down the line.

I think it's something everyone should try, at least once. Don't imagine that a high lethality translates as "PC-meatgrinder". It just means that if you don't play smart, you'll get hurt.

The reputation of games like Cuthulu and Hackmaster have a lot to answer for, I think.

Narren
2011-03-21, 06:52 PM
D&D seems to become less lethal with each new edition, but I never played 1st. Has anyone on here played it? I'm curious if it follows (or started, I guess) the same pattern.

subject42
2011-03-21, 07:28 PM
D&D seems to become less lethal with each new edition, but I never played 1st. Has anyone on here played it? I'm curious if it follows (or started, I guess) the same pattern.

I played first edition back in the day. Maybe it was my young age or lack of rule-mastery, but I went through Fighting Men like Johnny Cash went through Whiskey.

Zaq
2011-03-21, 07:44 PM
Kobolds Ate My Baby! is exaggeratedly lethal (how many games can have you reasonably expect to roll a "Horrible Death Check" nearly every turn? Even Paranoia usually gives you a swing around the table first . . .), but it's 1) a very silly game and 2) not meant to be used as a proper campaign.

Severus
2011-03-21, 08:09 PM
Rolemaster. It's critical system means that a kobold can technically oneshot anything.

body parts get blown off regularly, and death for the ill prepared is a regular occurrence.

Kerrin
2011-03-21, 10:59 PM
I played first edition back in the day. Maybe it was my young age or lack of rule-mastery, but I went through Fighting Men like Johnny Cash went through Whiskey.
That is both hilarious and accurate. Thanks for the laugh and the stroll down memory lane!

The times we played Twilight 2000 campaigns were rather lethal. A rifle was easily capable of killing a character with a head shot even if they were wearing a heavy helmet, and a hit to anywhere else pretty much meant the character was at least incapacitated.

Firechanter
2011-03-22, 09:03 AM
Since Shadowrun has been brought up -- that's another game with vast differences between 3rd and 4th ed.

SR3: every punk with a gun poses a threat. Usually, a Runner can easily dodge a single ranged attack per round. A second shot can usually be soaked with little or no damage. Anything beyond that will hurt, except if it's one of those pointless Light Pistols.
Also, the SR3 damage system is a "Death Spiral", meaning once you are wounded, your odds of success grow ever worse.
In practice, this means that the GM has to be _very_ careful not to play the opposition too smart. If the NPCs spread their fire evenly, not a problem. But have the NPCs focus their fire on one Runner for ONE round and the team will be one Runner down.

However, there are failsafes: you have a lot of "overflow damage", meaning while you are down and out there is usually plenty of time to rescue you. Also, you have Karma (fate points) with which you can avert the worst.

All in all, I'd rate the SR3 lethality at "Average".

SR4: one of those "Safe" systems. Armour actually converts Physical to Stun damage (not in all cases, but usually). It's kinda like a disney cartoon - "they aren't dead, they're just sleeping, honey". Even if you are wounded, the detrimental effects are way, way less pronounced - statistically, about one ninth (!) as bad as in SR3; a mere nuisance rather than a real threat.

Cyrion
2011-03-22, 09:35 AM
Nobody's mentioned GURPS yet, so here's my contribution-

Moderately Lethal- The naked character is lunch meat for anything that can do damage; hit points tend to be low relative to damage and they generally don't increase significantly. This gets modified by the setting- Add armor in a medieval setting, for example, and the lethality goes down significantly because armor typically have high protective value. Bring guns into the game and lethality rises once again because of the large amounts of damage and high accuracy of the weapon. There are lots of ways to avoid taking (armor, a good dodge, a good parry, a good shield skill, etc.), but it doesn't usually take many hits that do damage to take out a character (one will frequently be enough).

The Big Dice
2011-03-22, 10:50 AM
Low lethality games tend to be the ones where Initiative matters least. Because if you can take multiple hits, it doesn't really matter who goes first. Conversely, there's high lethality games. In those games, he who goes first wins.

Games like 2020 Cyberpunk and L5R are ones where going first can mean the difference between life and death. But in a game like D&D, assuming no specific fight stoppers or exotic things like SoD spells, the importance of order of actions in combat matters less.

I don't know how 4th edition GURPS is, but I realised long ago that 3rd edition isn't that lethal. Between blow through of large amounts of damage (you can't take more than your HT from impaling weapons or bullets) and the -5xHT for automatic death rule, it's much more likely a 3rd edition GURPS character will pass out before taking lethal amounts of damage.

Erom
2011-03-22, 11:27 AM
FWIW I've seen DnD 4th TPK's - resurrection is easy but slow since it occurs out of combat most of the time, so an all-kill encounter takes you down regardless. That said I would still rate it as a very low lethality system.

FATE, especially the Dresden RPG, seems to me to also be pretty low lethality, though more than 4e. It's easy for a single hit to take you down, but you have Consequences you can burn, essentially converting hp damage into penalties instead, and most of the time getting Taken Out doesn't even necessarily mean death, especially if you offer a Concession before you are eliminated.

Calimehter
2011-03-22, 03:00 PM
Its been a while, but I remember Mechwarrior 2 being fairly lethal, probably in the "moderate" range by this thread's standards. Most weapons in the standard equipment lists could not one-shot characters, but a substantial number of them could cripple or incapacitate you pretty quickly. Getting shot w/o armour on was *very* problematic regardless of weapon power. Healing was a fairly slow process, so you had to find downtime if people got hurt.

There were "tech"-y ways around this, especially battle armour. Using battle armour was kind of tough, though, unless everyone in the party had it too . . . things that could challenge battle armour (battlefield-caliber weapons, giant alien beasties) could utterly hash normal PCs, and things that normal PCs could survive would not even begin to challenge a battle armour pilot.

We did some Mechwarrior 3, too, but not enough for me to remember if combat was much better (or worse) - the characters ended up spending most of their time in Mech cockpits when I ran that one.

Firechanter
2011-03-22, 03:23 PM
Warhammer FRP: Lethal.
When something attacks you, you can't do squat about getting hit - either the attacker makes his % attack roll or he doesn't.
If you get hit, damage is rolled, and _three_ points of damage suffice to make it a critical hit. You also start out so poor you can't afford any armour.
You have a couple of Luck points with which you can cushion the first few crits, but once these are spent, you are literally out of luck and enter an inescapable death spiral.
Plus you are laughably incompetent at anything early in the game. You really suck badly even at your supposed key competence skill to the level of slapstick.

We tried it once, we were 3 players iirc and the GM sicked some 6 goblins on us, all in good faith we would easily dispatch these simplest of monsters as a warmup exercise... TPK, or definitely would have been if he hadn't let the cavalry arrive.

Knaight
2011-03-22, 03:35 PM
Introducting... Kurald's Scale of Lethality!

(1) does the game have common one-hit-kill moves?
(2) are the monsters substantially more powerful than you are?
(3) do you have a low amount of hit points against regular attacks?
(4) does the game lack a resurrection power?

Do the math from here. YMMV as to the examples, of course; ultimately, the DM has a big influence on how lethal things are.

Rank 4, lethal. Example: Call of Chtulhu
Rank 3, dangerous. Example: 2E; Paranoia; Cyberpunk; Werewolf
Rank 2, average. Example: 3E; Vampire
Rank 1, safe. Example: 4E; Toon


Since I just made this up five minutes ago, feedback welcome.

This scale is amazing, and is now borrowed. That said, "hit points" aren't exactly a universal mechanic, so the scale can be changed to the following for a bit more precision.
1) Is it easy to kill in one hit?
2) Is the opposition frequently more powerful than the characters?
3) Is being injured in regular combat highly dangerous?
4) Can a character revive from being killed in any way?

Change Reasons.
1) Specific moves aren't universal, and ease of killing in one hit also brings in stuff that doesn't translate to a "move" at all. Like snipers.
2) Monsters aren't universal, and the changed wording also includes being out numbered all the time.
3) Hit points aren't universal, and this includes stuff like wound penalties.
4) The new wording also deals with clones, effective replacements, not real death, etc.

So, example time. Fudge wound systems (Numbers 2 and 4 are always variable):
Threshold (2-4. Numbers 1 and 3 are true.)
Default (1-3. Number 1 isn't true, Number 3 is.)
No Wound Penalties (0-2. Number 1 and 3 are false.)
Shortened Wound Track (2-4. Numbers 1 and 3 are true.)

Tengu_temp
2011-03-22, 04:09 PM
(4) does the game lack a resurrection power?

I don't think if this matters that much. There's a lot of games out there that have very low lethality despite lacking such powers, like Fate, or where this power is not needed because dying is incredibly difficult, like M&M.

What matters instead is "what happens when you're reduced to 0 HP"? In some games you die instantly, in others you're dying but can still be saved, in others you're knocked out but stable unless someone decides to finish you off. That makes a huge difference.

Knaight
2011-03-22, 04:26 PM
I don't think if this matters that much. There's a lot of games out there that have very low lethality despite lacking such powers, like Fate, or where this power is not needed because dying is incredibly difficult, like M&M.

What matters instead is "what happens when you're reduced to 0 HP"? In some games you die instantly, in others you're dying but can still be saved, in others you're knocked out but stable unless someone decides to finish you off. That makes a huge difference.

Consider the other traits on the scale though. Fate can be lethal in some variations, so I'll look at Spirit of the Century. You will not be killed in one turn. Being shot at, attacked by some guy with a machete, or jumped in melee by a few people often isn't all that dangerous. Most of the time, the player characters are as powerful as their combat opposition, once Fate Points are taken into account. It manages a 1 on the scale, even without resurrection, which means safe. Mutants and Masterminds is similar.

Gnaeus
2011-03-22, 05:06 PM
1) Is it easy to kill in one hit?
2) Is the opposition frequently more powerful than the characters?
3) Is being injured in regular combat highly dangerous?
4) Can a character revive from being killed in any way?

I really don't like #2. If PCs, (in Cthulhu say) know that the monsters are more powerful, they won't fight them directly, or only after doing something clever. For me, a high lethality game is one in which fights that you should win (barfights, say, or a few kobolds, or poorly equipped and trained guards) actually have a significant chance of generating PC fatalities.

I mean, yea, Hastur will crush your party. Thats why you don't fight Hastur.

Knaight
2011-03-22, 05:12 PM
I really don't like #2. If PCs, (in Cthulhu say) know that the monsters are more powerful, they won't fight them directly, or only after doing something clever. For me, a high lethality game is one in which fights that you should win (barfights, say, or a few kobolds, or poorly equipped and trained guards) actually have a significant chance of generating PC fatalities.

I mean, yea, Hastur will crush your party. Thats why you don't fight Hastur.

Its keyed to the more slight and common variations than anything else. Say a small handful of guards show up, are they likely to be more powerful than the player characters due to numbers, or are the player characters badasses capable of taking down a bunch of glorified civilians with spears. Consider your Cthulhu example, Hastur, Cthulu, Narylohotep or however it is spelled, and that lot can and will crush the player characters. However, within setting the lethality is more relevant based upon the more common monsters - is a single deep one a threat for all the characters, cannon fodder, or somewhere in between?

Kurald Galain
2011-03-22, 05:21 PM
I really don't like #2. If PCs, (in Cthulhu say) know that the monsters are more powerful, they won't fight them directly, or only after doing something clever.
The problem is that you don't necessarily have that choice. In Soviet Russia, Hastur fights you!

Firechanter
2011-03-22, 05:27 PM
Maybe you could work in the factor "Is there some kind of safety mechanism such as Fate Points". This seems to be the hallmark of a modern system. However, it can be misleading, since the aforementioned WHF does have fate points and you still die very quickly and hideously.

Knaight
2011-03-22, 05:42 PM
Maybe you could work in the factor "Is there some kind of safety mechanism such as Fate Points". This seems to be the hallmark of a modern system. However, it can be misleading, since the aforementioned WHF does have fate points and you still die very quickly and hideously.

That is part of the consideration on points 1 and 3 of the modified system, and point 1 of the unmodified system.

Kurald Galain
2011-03-22, 06:00 PM
This scale is amazing, and is now borrowed. That said, "hit points" aren't exactly a universal mechanic, so the scale can be changed to the following for a bit more precision.
1) Is it easy to kill in one hit?
2) Is the opposition frequently more powerful than the characters?
3) Is being injured in regular combat highly dangerous?
4) Can a character revive from being killed in any way?
I think your change to #1 makes it too similar to #3. The point of #1 is that most systems have hit points, or wound levels, or a similar "standard" way of representing health, where you can get killed if they run out. The question is, are there common tricks that bypass this?

I'm also not sure whether being outnumbered (as you suggest for #2) has much to do with the system. In any game, you can find strength in numbers. However, in many games, enemies follow the same rules as you (in Cyberpunk they die as quickly as you do, and in 3E D&D they get mostly the same spells as you do); but in some games, they significantly don't (in Call of Chtulhu, you aren't even in the same league).

Knaight
2011-03-22, 06:11 PM
I think your change to #1 makes it too similar to #3. The point of #1 is that most systems have hit points, or wound levels, or a similar "standard" way of representing health, where you can get killed if they run out. The question is, are there common tricks that bypass this?

I'm also not sure whether being outnumbered (as you suggest for #2) has much to do with the system. In any game, you can find strength in numbers. However, in many games, enemies follow the same rules as you (in Cyberpunk they die as quickly as you do, and in 3E D&D they get mostly the same spells as you do); but in some games, they significantly don't (in Call of Chtulhu, you aren't even in the same league).

On the first point, lots of games also have instant kill rules. Whether this is the D&D do 50 damage (though saves mitigate that hugely), attacks that just about always kill unaware targets, or other forms is irrelevant, the point is that they exist, and their existence and lethality warrants consideration on its own. Number three is different.

As for outnumbering, rules for outnumbering vary highly. D&D has the completely pathetic flanking maneuver, Fudge Simultaneous Combat has a massive penalty per extra person and an additional clause that must be met to hit anyone, which makes it more dangerous in that regard. Plus, there is the style encouraged by non generic systems to consider, a system that constantly pushes for duels between major characters only, with others being minor (e.g. 7th Sea) will have less meaningful ganging up than a system that pushes teamwork as the only viable strategy (e.g WoD Hunters).

rayne_dragon
2011-03-22, 09:09 PM
I'd like to note that some systems; especially earlier editions of D&D lethality changes a fair bit as you level. A level 1 character often is far easier to kill in AD&D and 2nd edition than a level 5 or 10 character. Even in 3.x, lethality is less than previous editions at low levels, but still follows the trend that a higher level character is generally harder to kill than a low level character. 4e is definitely the lowest of the D&D systems for lethality.

Call of Cthulhu and Paranoia are likely near the top of the lethality scale. Ars Magica is probably fairly lethal. I don't have a lot of experience with White Wolf systems, but they seems to be rather moderate to low in terms of lethality; like level 6-8 D&D.

Teln
2011-03-23, 10:35 AM
I'm going to have to beg to differ on White Wolf's lethality. Exalted has the problems I mentioned in my post on the last page, plus its "death spiral" mechanic--which rarely comes up, due to most fights ending the first time someone manages to land a solid blow. World of Darkness players assure me that Vampire: the Masquerade is lethal enough that fighting is widely seen as something to be avoided.

randomhero00
2011-03-23, 10:47 AM
I like less-than-lethal systems. I hate it when my character dies. Not because of any costs, but because it feels very unheroic.

Britter
2011-03-23, 10:57 AM
I like less-than-lethal systems. I hate it when my character dies. Not because of any costs, but because it feels very unheroic.

I agree. I like being able to defeat a character without having to kil them. Death is very fuinal, and frankly not very dramatic. Failure, on the other hand, is a lot of fun.

However, I do like a system where the threat of lethality has to be taken seriously. Otherwise people enter into fights to lightly.

Sarco_Phage
2011-03-23, 11:00 AM
Dark Heresy: High lethality. Gruesome critical hit tables that range from 'minor inconvenience' to 'permanently maimed' to 'instakill'. The only reason it isn't Very High lethality is Fate Points, which effectively give you a few extra lives.


I'd actually disagree with this. Anyone who's ever played Dark Heresy knows that it is only memetically this lethal. A team who plays how they're generally supposed to (i.e. like they're actual people in lethal danger all the time as opposed to frothing warhungry maniacs despite having only a scroll to use as a weapon) will likely only ever see a critical table result once or twice, probably from a lucky hit or facing something like Marabas, Lord of Change, while they're just starting out.

Firechanter
2011-03-23, 11:07 AM
Well, sometimes perceptions differ. Look on the first page: another bloke (Asmayus) described Shadowrun 4 as "Lethal" whereas I described it as "Disney". (Maybe the other guy hasn't played SR3 and thus didn't experience the gradient, and I am judging SR4 mainly in relation to SR3. FWIW, I still prefer SR3.)

Gnaeus
2011-03-23, 11:18 AM
The problem is that you don't necessarily have that choice. In Soviet Russia, Hastur fights you!

That isn't a game lethality issue. It is a DM/campaign issue. Almost every game has Big Bads that kill you if the DM wants to go there. I have never fought Hastur in CoC (unless you include Arkham Horror). It is like saying that 3.5 is high lethality because Talos or Kossuth could attack you. Sure they COULD. But most DMs in any system are going to avoid that fight. If you are fighting Hastur, it is either because your team already failed in some major way, or the DM just wants to play a different campaign.

Erom
2011-03-23, 11:21 AM
I actually wish I could run a higher lethality system than 4e, but the last time one of my players went to 0hp and had to make a death save, she got so freaked out when she failed her first one she had to leave the room, so I guess "more lethal" is not really on the table with my current group...

Asmayus
2011-03-23, 12:12 PM
Well, sometimes perceptions differ. Look on the first page: another bloke (Asmayus) described Shadowrun 4 as "Lethal" whereas I described it as "Disney". (Maybe the other guy hasn't played SR3 and thus didn't experience the gradient, and I am judging SR4 mainly in relation to SR3. FWIW, I still prefer SR3.)

Yup, I jumped to Shadowrun 4 straight from 4e Dnd :D the concept of any bloke with a gun being able to seriously harm a PC and leave them hurting for a few days afterwards is, well, shocking. :smalleek:

And there's the fact that every session so far, someone has come close to death. Although, now that we've had a chance to rebuild our characters, with experience of the game and all, we might see a decrease in the level of lethality. (or a least, "oh crap I'm dying!" moments)

I guess it depends on what you're used to. :)


I actually wish I could run a higher lethality system than 4e, but the last time one of my players went to 0hp and had to make a death save, she got so freaked out when she failed her first one she had to leave the room, so I guess "more lethal" is not really on the table with my current group...

You should play a one off session of 1e. Just a silly "yeah lets have a crack off it" game. It might change perceptions a bit.

It's actually what prompted the change in my group from 4e to SR4; Everyone thought "Hey. This random dude poses an actual threat. That's... That's kinda fun"

There was a memorable scrap between our party of 8 and 13 robed dudes, actually. It was brutal. There were three survivors: The supposed 'wizard', who hid in a corner, a battered fighter and a dying... dunno, actually. 1e doesn't really distinguish between classes, lol.

Everyone rolled new characters (takes about a minute flat in 1e) and promptly set about looting their previous characters + assailants. And then there was the next fight... *Shudder* :smallbiggrin:

Seerow
2011-03-23, 12:34 PM
Since Shadowrun has been brought up -- that's another game with vast differences between 3rd and 4th ed.

SR3: every punk with a gun poses a threat. Usually, a Runner can easily dodge a single ranged attack per round. A second shot can usually be soaked with little or no damage. Anything beyond that will hurt, except if it's one of those pointless Light Pistols.
Also, the SR3 damage system is a "Death Spiral", meaning once you are wounded, your odds of success grow ever worse.
In practice, this means that the GM has to be _very_ careful not to play the opposition too smart. If the NPCs spread their fire evenly, not a problem. But have the NPCs focus their fire on one Runner for ONE round and the team will be one Runner down.

However, there are failsafes: you have a lot of "overflow damage", meaning while you are down and out there is usually plenty of time to rescue you. Also, you have Karma (fate points) with which you can avert the worst.

All in all, I'd rate the SR3 lethality at "Average".

SR4: one of those "Safe" systems. Armour actually converts Physical to Stun damage (not in all cases, but usually). It's kinda like a disney cartoon - "they aren't dead, they're just sleeping, honey". Even if you are wounded, the detrimental effects are way, way less pronounced - statistically, about one ninth (!) as bad as in SR3; a mere nuisance rather than a real threat.


Honestly, if you're rating SR3 as average and SR4 as non-lethal, you probably need to try some other game systems. Compared to D&D 3.5 (which has been described as average) SR4 is far more lethal.

I'm also guessing while playing SR3, you either had some house rules, or didn't have anyone going fully defensive. Target number to hit = targets armor makes it so that anyone who focuses on being defensive probably isn't going to get hit. I played a character in SR3 which required something like a 16 to hit him. That means any given die roll has a 1/108 chance to hit him. Most mooks' attacks simply didn't do anything. Sure when they did hit, it was lethal, but the name of the game in SR3 was making sure they didn't.

In SR4, with that same amount of Armor, while most damage I'd take wouldn't be lethal damage, it is possible to take me out of a fight. 16 armor 6 body, on average reduce damage taken by 5.5, someone burst firing with an average weapon and ex explosive rounds is looking at 11+successes damage. 2-3 shots like that and I drop. A less defensively focused character, running around with 3-4 body, and an armored jacket, and maybe the securetech if they can deal with the encumberence is pretty easily going to die from 1-2 shots.

Of course there's still reaction/dodge rolls that can be factored in that increases longevity, but those suffer from the death spiral mentioned (the more you get shot at, the worse your dodge is), or if you're exceptionally good at dodging the enemy can give up some damage and decide to wide burst you instead, to negate your dodge.

And god forbid they long burst/full auto instead.

stainboy
2011-03-23, 12:36 PM
As a result, the official forum is stuffed to the brim with minmaxers, and they consider lack of a "paranoia Combo" to be evidence of a secret death-wish on the part of your character. Any attempt at instituting a "gentleman's agreement" to avoid paranoia combat is greeted with scorn. Jon Chung, one of "paranoia combat"'s main proponents, makes no secret that he considers all such agreements to be inevitably doomed to failure.

Maybe I'm completely missing your point, but I just googled "Jon Chung Paranoia Combo" and I wish I'd had this last time I tried to make an Exalted character. I could tell the system was crazy lethal and I was supposed to plow points into some defensive combo to not get one-rounded, but I didn't know the charm rules well enough to build it.

Saph
2011-03-23, 12:44 PM
I'd actually disagree with this. Anyone who's ever played Dark Heresy knows that it is only memetically this lethal.

Actually, we just finished a campaign of Dark Heresy. Critical hits and Fate Point burns happened every session and often every combat, for the following reasons:

a) The other guys are just as smart as you are, almost as tough as you are, far more numerous than you are, and usually have special tricks, too. This is even without counting the hilariously lethal Perils of the Warp results (guess what happened to our first psyker?)

b) You're playing 40k. It's grimdark. Life sucks. If your Inquisitor tells you "Infiltrate this pirate base", you have to infiltrate the pirate base. Doesn't matter that the pirates outnumber you 20 to 1 and that even mid-level DH characters are woefully incompetent at stealth and are lucky to have a 50% chance of successfully hiding. Say yes, and the pirates might fail to kill you. Say no, and your boss won't. :smallamused:

Darth Stabber
2011-03-23, 01:38 PM
If your Inquisitor tells you "Infiltrate this pirate base", you have to infiltrate the pirate base. Doesn't matter that the pirates outnumber you 20 to 1 and that even mid-level DH characters are woefully incompetent at stealth and are lucky to have a 50% chance of successfully hiding. Say yes, and the pirates might fail to kill you. Say no, and your boss won't. :smallamused:

Replace "Rocks fall" with "Inquisitor finds you heretics" and the old cliche is alive and well in DH, only with fluff to back it up.

Teln
2011-03-23, 01:58 PM
Maybe I'm completely missing your point, but I just googled "Jon Chung Paranoia Combo" and I wish I'd had this last time I tried to make an Exalted character. I could tell the system was crazy lethal and I was supposed to plow points into some defensive combo to not get one-rounded, but I didn't know the charm rules well enough to build it.

My problem with paranoia combat is that Exalted forces you into rocket tag. It's so lethal, you need to activate your paranoia Combo every single action, or you're dead, which means combat devolves into "spam paranoia Combo with the Dawn Excellency of your choice until you or the other guy runs out of motes and/or Willpower points to defend with".

All those crazy Martial Arts techniques? Don't waste the XP, you'll never use them on anybody worth fighting. Defensive Charms other than a perfect defense? You'll never use them, even against people not worth fighting, because perfects are just that cost-effective. Sol help you if you activate a Charm that costs Willpower, because now that Willpower point can't be spent on a paranoia Combo activation or--shudder--social combat.

Severus
2011-03-23, 07:30 PM
I really don't like #2. If PCs, (in Cthulhu say) know that the monsters are more powerful, they won't fight them directly, or only after doing something clever. For me, a high lethality game is one in which fights that you should win (barfights, say, or a few kobolds, or poorly equipped and trained guards) actually have a significant chance of generating PC fatalities.
.

In Rolemaster, this is the exact problem (or feature I guess). You can be lord high warrior fancy pants and a lucky shot from Joe the drunken peasant can kill you.

There is no fate points to avoid it.

Raise magics exist, but if you don't have a healer at the body almost immediately you're screwed.

Brother Oni
2011-03-23, 07:59 PM
However, it can be misleading, since the aforementioned WHF does have fate points and you still die very quickly and hideously.

It's even worse if you use the Tom and Jerry method of trap survival compared to the more cinematic Indiana Jones method.



With regard to lethal systems, I remember Traveller fairly high on the list. One anecdote I remember was that a PC got attacked by a lunatic armed with a butter knife. I think the knife did 1d6 damage, the PC had 1d6 hp. :smallbiggrin:

Gnoman
2011-03-23, 08:05 PM
I think FATAL should be on the top of any such list, as it's the only system likely to kill off the players.

stainboy
2011-03-23, 08:14 PM
My problem with paranoia combat is that Exalted forces you into rocket tag. It's so lethal, you need to activate your paranoia Combo every single action, or you're dead, which means combat devolves into "spam paranoia Combo with the Dawn Excellency of your choice until you or the other guy runs out of motes and/or Willpower points to defend with".


Yeah, thought so. White Wolf's always been like that. oWoD Vampire and Werewolf were both really rocket-taggy. White Wolf loves high powered supernaturals but doesn't like dodging without spending an action or characters with much more than 7 health levels. (I know you can get those things with charms, but it seems easy to build a character naively and get one rounded.)

Have you ever seen a homebrew fix that works? I've seen a lot of groups give all exalted a bunch of free Ox Bodies but I don't know the system well enough to know if it helps.

Teln
2011-03-23, 08:43 PM
Have you ever seen a homebrew fix that works? I've seen a lot of groups give all exalted a bunch of free Ox Bodies but I don't know the system well enough to know if it helps.
I'm afraid I can't help you there. I've got plenty of sourcebooks, but so far all my attempts to get into a group have ended in failure for one reason or another.


Also, fixing paranoia combat is the Holy Grail of Exalted homebrew. There are just simply too many little speedbumps adding up to "lolperfect everything if you want to live". A proper fix is going to have to wait until at least 3rd Edition. If you want my two copper pieces, implement as many quick-and-dirty fixes as you think you can get away with. Experiment. If you find something that works for your group, share it with other people and don't let anybody convince you it's stupid.

(Tip: Ban all artifact weapons with "Grand" in the name, their damage output is just too high.)

Occasional Sage
2011-03-24, 11:31 AM
There was a memorable scrap between our party of 8 and 13 robed dudes, actually. It was brutal. There were three survivors: The supposed 'wizard', who hid in a corner, a battered fighter and a dying... dunno, actually. 1e doesn't really distinguish between classes, lol.


Um, you're kidding right? The line between classes softened from 1 to 2 with new multicladding rules, and blurred with 3 where there are none, comparatively.

Sarco_Phage
2011-03-24, 11:37 AM
Actually, we just finished a campaign of Dark Heresy. Critical hits and Fate Point burns happened every session and often every combat, for the following reasons:

a) The other guys are just as smart as you are, almost as tough as you are, far more numerous than you are, and usually have special tricks, too. This is even without counting the hilariously lethal Perils of the Warp results (guess what happened to our first psyker?)

b) You're playing 40k. It's grimdark. Life sucks. If your Inquisitor tells you "Infiltrate this pirate base", you have to infiltrate the pirate base. Doesn't matter that the pirates outnumber you 20 to 1 and that even mid-level DH characters are woefully incompetent at stealth and are lucky to have a 50% chance of successfully hiding. Say yes, and the pirates might fail to kill you. Say no, and your boss won't. :smallamused:

a) That's why the trick is to outsmart them. Fighting hideous beasties in DH, of course, would be much easier than fighting humans or Eldar, especially if your DM knows what he's doing.

b) Life only sucks if you attempt the classic tactic of DRIVE ME CLOSER I WANT TO HIT THEM WITH MY SWORD. An intelligent inquisitor won't be sending you off on suicide missions. Dangerous, yes, but the reasonable ones (namely, the older ones) will be more likely to accept that there are some things 5 people with stubbers simply cannot accomplish.

Firechanter
2011-03-24, 12:08 PM
I'm also guessing while playing SR3, you either had some house rules, or didn't have anyone going fully defensive. Target number to hit = targets armor makes it so that anyone who focuses on being defensive probably isn't going to get hit.

What are you talking about? That is not at all how SR3 combat works! First off, Full Defense only exists in close combat. Secondly, it doesn't set the TN to your armour, it allows you two separate rolls to "parry" and "dodge" the attack. And its only very situationally useful. Either way, there's no such thing as Full Defense when someone shoots at you. Also, the target of a ranged attack can do very little about the attacker's TN, which is mainly influenced by range and visibility, and not by your defensive skills at all. You can only dodge, and the attacker can give you a very hard time dodging by firing a burst or fullauto.

If you're talking about close combat, well that works a bit differently, but still there's no way to set your armour as TN. To me it looks like you are the one playing with houserules.
And anyway -- you know the old bromide about what happens to the guy who brings a knife to a gunfight. ;)

P.S.: all in all, I definitely consider D&D 3.X less dangerous than SR3. In D&D, the DM can usually try as he might, his level-appropriate encounters won't really endanger the party (some odd monsters with borked CRs notwithstanding). In SR3, the GM has to pull his punches or there WILL be casualties.

WhiteTiger
2011-03-24, 02:24 PM
This scale is amazing, and is now borrowed. That said, "hit points" aren't exactly a universal mechanic, so the scale can be changed to the following for a bit more precision.
1) Is it easy to kill in one hit?
2) Is the opposition frequently more powerful than the characters?
3) Is being injured in regular combat highly dangerous?
4) Can a character revive from being killed in any way?


Using the sliding scale mentioned earlier of D&D being lethal at low levels less at mid, etc. I'm surprised noone has mentioned Rifts (or any Palidium "mega damage" game). Rifts lethality can come easily down to what you select as your player character. If you choose a MegaDamage creature/race, then you're fine. If you live life in your robot suit, you're fine. But if you get out to go eat dinner or clean your mega damage armor in that river over there a single hit from a sidearm is enough to turn you into a pasty sploch (#1). Add to that the fact that most of the opposition in the game funded by mega-conglomerate military city-states or extra-dimensional invaders and you most likely are facing down a more powerful gun than you have (#2). For #3, see my point about #1 above. If you mega defense somehow runs out, it's over. Resurrection is possible, but is a lvl 14 spell, so it's not very likely to be used. I'd use 3.5 (out of 4) as the lethality rating. If you're out of your armor for any reason, don't do combat. And the book it'self mentions that no party should spend eternity inside it's giant robots or powered armor.

As for how this affects gameplay, the last time I led Rifts based game, I did an early example combat to get the players used to the combat system providing them with a varying degree of opponents in and out of mega-damage armors with both normal and mega damaging weapons. They were utterly stunned by how lethal the game could be under certain circumstances.

Kurald Galain
2011-03-24, 02:37 PM
That isn't a game lethality issue. It is a DM/campaign issue. Almost every game has Big Bads that kill you if the DM wants to go there. I have never fought Hastur in CoC (unless you include Arkham Horror). It is like saying that 3.5 is high lethality because Talos or Kossuth could attack you.
No, it's not the same. Without speaking for individual DMs, the design is that in most published D&D adventures pretty much everything you meet will have a challenge rating appropriate to your party; whereas in most published COC adventures you will encounter horrors that can destroy your party without raising a sweat.

It doesn't have to be Hastur or the other BBEGs, either. A space polyp or Hound of Tindalos will also have no problem massacring the average party.

Gnaeus
2011-03-24, 03:37 PM
whereas in most published COC adventures you will encounter horrors that can destroy your party without raising a sweat.


Often, but in most published COC adventures (at least the ones I have read) the point isn't to defeat the things that can massacre your party in a pitched battle. Your shotgun is for shooting cultists, or at worst Deep Ones. Most parties know better than to charge the ancient horrors and go down fighting. You say "ahh. that sucks!", send the guy who failed his San roll off for some psychotherapy, and destroy the mine entrance with dynamite. Or break the McGuffin. Or kill the cultists who are calling up the bad thing.

TPKs don't usually come, in any system, including Cthulhu, from fighting things that are way worse than you. TPKs come from fighting things that you could reasonably beat, but then you roll badly. The song of the dead party is "I could have beaten it in one more round!".

Or, as the game puts it, CoC is the game where the oldest characters are the ones with the fastest movement rates. :smalltongue:

Kurald Galain
2011-03-24, 03:45 PM
Often, but in most published COC adventures (at least the ones I have read) the point isn't to defeat the things that can massacre your party in a pitched battle.
Yes, that's precisely my point. The high lethality of the system encourages the characters to avoid direct battle (and e.g. collapse the mine entrance instead).

The Big Dice
2011-03-24, 04:02 PM
TPKs don't usually come, in any system, including Cthulhu, from fighting things that are way worse than you. TPKs come from fighting things that you could reasonably beat, but then you roll badly. The song of the dead party is "I could have beaten it in one more round!"
I've heard that song so many times.

Of course a TPK can come from players rolling badly or the Gm rolling well with equal ease. A lot of the TPKs I've seen were in 202 Cyberpunk and 1st edition L5R. Quite often it went, characters are doing ok. Then one dies. That seems to be some kind of shatter point and suddenly half the PCs are dead in a round. If the rest don't choose to run at that point, they tend to die too.

Tyndmyr
2011-03-24, 04:18 PM
You have to make some hard decisions once a player goes down. Normally, this means you've lost a significant proportion of your firepower/ability. Generally, other people in the party have already taken damage as well, so you're at a very significantly lower total health.

Usually, I consider if I'm going to run or not when the first person goes down, if I haven't already. Even if I decide not to, I'm constantly re-evaluating it from that point on, as the risks are definitely high, and probably climbing.

I find that most TPKs are a result of either outright DM error or players vastly overestimating their odds once a party member drops.

The Big Dice
2011-03-24, 04:22 PM
I find that most TPKs are a result of either outright DM error or players vastly overestimating their odds once a party member drops.
To a certain extent this is true. But in a game like Cyberpunk, where any shot has a 10% chance of hitting your head and probably killing you no matter how experienced you are, or 1st edition L5R where one hit can kill you outright, the chances of the dice being a factor are much higher.

I've seen multiple TPK and near TPK situations in both of those games. If fact, I'd say those two games account for 75% of all PC fatalities I've seen.

Tyndmyr
2011-03-24, 04:23 PM
The dice are a bigger factor in high lethality systems...it's part of what makes them high lethality.

I suspect that the few sessions of paranoia I've played have accounted for 90%ish of the player deaths I've seen.

Greylond
2011-03-24, 09:22 PM
Aces&8's- Very High Lethality: a Hit Point Based System but every wound above 2 or 3 points(Depending on location) has a Special Effect, i.e. penalty to Dex, Str, or Con, OR some other special Effect like Unconscious or Instant Death. Wounds to the head do double damage and a 12 Point Wound(after doubling) is Instant Death. So, a wound that is rolled for 6 HPs to the Head, doubles and is Instant Death. Most Guns in the system are able to do do a 6 HP Wound. Rifles in the game typically do 1d10+1, 2d6 or 2d8 so that 6 point wound is an average wound.


HackMaster 4th Edition: Very Lethal when Pentrating Dice and Critical Hits are taken into account.

HackMaster Basic/Advanced HackMaster: Also, Very Lethal.


I prefer games like this because it makes Players want to play smarter...

tordirycgoyust
2011-03-24, 10:01 PM
In "the Riddle of Steel," fights are almost always decided with the first hit. Unlucky dice don't really enter into lethality though, due to the sheer power of strategy and tactics. All in all it just screams Song of Ice and Fire campaign.I still miss you Ned

Seerow
2011-03-24, 11:03 PM
What are you talking about? That is not at all how SR3 combat works! First off, Full Defense only exists in close combat. Secondly, it doesn't set the TN to your armour, it allows you two separate rolls to "parry" and "dodge" the attack. And its only very situationally useful. Either way, there's no such thing as Full Defense when someone shoots at you. Also, the target of a ranged attack can do very little about the attacker's TN, which is mainly influenced by range and visibility, and not by your defensive skills at all. You can only dodge, and the attacker can give you a very hard time dodging by firing a burst or fullauto.

If you're talking about close combat, well that works a bit differently, but still there's no way to set your armour as TN. To me it looks like you are the one playing with houserules.
And anyway -- you know the old bromide about what happens to the guy who brings a knife to a gunfight. ;)


Sorry, I pulled out my old SR3 book and looked it up, you're right that the TN doesn't rely on armor. Instead the armor gets subtracted from the defender's TN to stage down the damage. So with that 16 armor, unless they're putting out monstrous attacks in the first place (like target number 20+ to resist base), chances are I only need to roll above a 1 to get a success towards staging the damage down.

Maybe most characters don't focus on armor that much, or maybe target numbers to resist damage were supposed to be higher than I experienced, but speaking from anecdotal experience, I know that when my gnome got hit for more than light damage, I was pretty shocked.

On the contrast, a similarly defensive focused character in SR4 is going to take the full 11 boxes of damage from that shot, with target number 4 to reduce it, reducing it by 1 box (rather than a full stage, which was a much bigger deal in SR3) for each one. Now said character might be throwing 24 dice at the damage resistance test, but with an average 1 in 3 success, he's looking at staging it down to 3 damage on average. A less defensively focused character might have say 12 dice to throw at it instead, staging it down on average 4 boxes, to 7.

In SR3, said non-defensive character would have likely been taking deadly damage and be killed right there, while the defensive character shrugs it off staging it from deadly down to light or nothing. In SR4, both characters take damage, neither is dead from this shot, but they're both injured, one just moreso than the other.

Personally, I prefer SR4s system because it is less boolean, there's more middle ground, and it's harder to make yourself nigh indestructible. I would personally argue SR4 is more lethal simply because it remains lethal even when you are focusing on defenses and staying alive.


P.S.: all in all, I definitely consider D&D 3.X less dangerous than SR3. In D&D, the DM can usually try as he might, his level-appropriate encounters won't really endanger the party (some odd monsters with borked CRs notwithstanding). In SR3, the GM has to pull his punches or there WILL be casualties.

I think we can all agree on that. The point I was trying to make is you paint SR3 as an average lethality system. It may be average for your play, where you probably play SR3 primarily, for most players it rates as a high lethality game, while something like D&D rates closer to average, especially when the DM decides to engage in rocket tag (ie the pcs are having fun throwing all their save or dies around, well the NPCs with spellcasting ability start doing the same)

ooknabah
2011-03-24, 11:52 PM
D20 modern is pretty lethal at lower levels (with firearm combat, one or two hits, max). Higher levels seem to help, but a machine gun is dangerous to anybody.

I would say D20 Modern is pretty lethal all the way through, particularly if you're playing without magic which is more or less tacked on to the system and not a great fit to it. Without magic, any damage you take is going to be with you for a long long time, and guns do a significant dent to your fragile HP.

That being said, everyone, take a level of Fast Hero! Good, we've all got evasion!

Sarco_Phage
2011-03-25, 04:12 AM
In "the Riddle of Steel," fights are almost always decided with the first hit. Unlucky dice don't really enter into lethality though, due to the sheer power of strategy and tactics. All in all it just screams Song of Ice and Fire campaign.I still miss you Ned

They both threw red. THEY BOTH THREW RED.

*shudders*

Firechanter
2011-03-25, 05:04 AM
@Seerow: no biggy, everyone mixes stuff up once in a while.


So with that 16 armor, unless they're putting out monstrous attacks in the first place (like target number 20+ to resist base), chances are I only need to roll above a 1 to get a success towards staging the damage down.

Number one, how do you get 16 armour? The heaviest MilSpec I know gets you to 11, but that's going to get you in all different kinds of trouble (also, it counts as Hardened, meaning you don't have to roll at all). The best ballistic rating a mundane character can get without sacrificing Combat Pool is 6, give or take. Anyway, non-hardened armour always makes you roll at least against TN2. A popular way to take out walking armour piles is to shoot at them with a regular shot-loading shotgun. Attacker's TN goes down to 2, Defender's TN is also 2, and it's "2D plus 6 successes, stage THAT down". You simply saturate the attack to a point where the defender can't roll enough dice.

That said, we've once compared the typical danger level in SR3 and 4. The consensus was that in SR4 you get hit much more often, but a single hit is not as bad as in SR3 by a long shot. Compare taking 3 boxes of damage in either system. SR4 sets you back 1 die = -0,33 successes = a joke, whereas SR3 increases your TNs by 2, which cuts your expected successes by roughly two thirds = you're practically out of the fight.


I think we can all agree on that. The point I was trying to make is you paint SR3 as an average lethality system.

You're right, in SR3 it's pretty easy to take Deadly damage if the GM doesn't pull his punches. On the other hand, you have Overflow damage boxes that make sure a single hit doesn't kill you even if it is taking you out, and a Karma pool that can also help ameliorate the worst effects. Nevertheless, it may be justified to classify SR3 as Dangerous.

Drascin
2011-03-25, 05:10 AM
You have to make some hard decisions once a player goes down. Normally, this means you've lost a significant proportion of your firepower/ability. Generally, other people in the party have already taken damage as well, so you're at a very significantly lower total health.

Usually, I consider if I'm going to run or not when the first person goes down, if I haven't already. Even if I decide not to, I'm constantly re-evaluating it from that point on, as the risks are definitely high, and probably climbing.

I find that most TPKs are a result of either outright DM error or players vastly overestimating their odds once a party member drops.

The problem is that in many systems, with a dying character and a wounded party remainder, hightailing it becomes more difficult - which can be hard, as it's likely to still be at the feet of the dude who killed him. In games with resurrection, you need to take your friend's body to resurrect him. In games without it, you still have to manage a way to do a tactical retreat with four people who are likely separated by few meters of distance and likely to be under massive ranged fire the second they turn, and this with little HP and resources left.

Generally, by the time one or two people fall, I find it generally becomes all-or-nothing. Either drop the other guys NOW, or TPK. Having a character in the group capable of teleporting in some way changes this, of course. but usually, by the time you've gotten so trounced, you're pretty screwed either way, in my experience.

Kurald Galain
2011-03-25, 05:16 AM
Generally, by the time one or two people fall, I find it generally becomes all-or-nothing. Either drop the other guys NOW, or TPK.
Or you could run away, have the fallen character be captured, and stage a rescue operation.

Or you could surrender, and use social skills to point out how the opponents have nothing to gain by killing you.

Amphetryon
2011-03-25, 07:05 AM
Well, sometimes perceptions differ. Look on the first page: another bloke (Asmayus) described Shadowrun 4 as "Lethal" whereas I described it as "Disney". (Maybe the other guy hasn't played SR3 and thus didn't experience the gradient, and I am judging SR4 mainly in relation to SR3. FWIW, I still prefer SR3.)

Funny story: My old DM - who was a big SR3 fanboi - tried to run us through a 1-shot of SR4 when it came out, and gave up halfway through because SR4 was 'way too much like rocket tag' for his tastes.

Gnoman
2011-03-25, 07:19 AM
I would say D20 Modern is pretty lethal all the way through, particularly if you're playing without magic which is more or less tacked on to the system and not a great fit to it. Without magic, any damage you take is going to be with you for a long long time, and guns do a significant dent to your fragile HP.

That being said, everyone, take a level of Fast Hero! Good, we've all got evasion!

There are a fair number of non-magic ways to heal HP. The permadeath in low magic campaigns is a big factor, though.

DwarfFighter
2011-03-25, 09:41 AM
I think FATAL should be on the top of any such list, as it's the only system likely to kill off the players.

From what I've heard it only destroys your soul.

-DF

Doktor Per
2011-03-25, 10:17 AM
I like less-than-lethal systems. I hate it when my character dies. Not because of any costs, but because it feels very unheroic.

I tend to find it unheroic to fight battles where I'm at little risk.

Knowing that your character narrowly cheated death, is a great feeling.

Seerow
2011-03-25, 12:03 PM
Number one, how do you get 16 armour?

Grade 2 initiate with a rank 8 Armor spell cast into a sustaining focus. As far as we could find, it appeared to stack with everything (and a quick double check in the book says this is explicitly the case), so I had the standard security armor+helmet on along with it, which was I believe 8/7 more. I believe I had a shield as well, so that number may have been higher. In situations where I couldn't get away with the security armor, I'd use an Armored Jacket + Lined Cloak, which is still 15 armor. I was working on getting military grade armor, but that campaign ended before I did, and we switched the SR4 before that could happen.

Worth noting: Armor got nerfed pretty hard in 4e, rather than creating armor equal to its rating, the armor you can gain for it is equal to your successes casting it, limited by your rating.


The best ballistic rating a mundane character can get without sacrificing Combat Pool is 6, give or take

Well the character wasn't mundane, I guess I could have mentioned that earlier. Magic is just so much better than mundane at basically everything, why not go magic? But yeah, iirc in the security armor I was taking a 2-3 combat pool penalty, which kind of sucked. As a mage though I could have found -another- sustaining focus and sustained a +3 quickness spell, but I that was another thing that I just never quite got around to.


Attacker's TN goes down to 2, Defender's TN is also 2, and it's "2D plus 6 successes, stage THAT down". You simply saturate the attack to a point where the defender can't roll enough dice.

That's actually a pretty neat trick. Pity my GM wasn't aware of it, or never busted it out on me. I -had- manned rocket launchers, full auto machine gun fire, among other things.


That said, we've once compared the typical danger level in SR3 and 4. The consensus was that in SR4 you get hit much more often, but a single hit is not as bad as in SR3 by a long shot. Compare taking 3 boxes of damage in either system. SR4 sets you back 1 die = -0,33 successes = a joke, whereas SR3 increases your TNs by 2, which cuts your expected successes by roughly two thirds = you're practically out of the fight.


I'll give you that, the +TNs is a much harsher penalty than negative dice.


You're right, in SR3 it's pretty easy to take Deadly damage if the GM doesn't pull his punches. On the other hand, you have Overflow damage boxes that make sure a single hit doesn't kill you even if it is taking you out, and a Karma pool that can also help ameliorate the worst effects. Nevertheless, it may be justified to classify SR3 as Dangerous.


Karma rerolls, everyone at the tables' favorite thing. That's one thing I miss about SR3, building up karma automatically, as opposed to having to spend karma to increase edge.

But while taking deadly damage won't kill you, it will kick you out of the fight, and it is likely your team will be forced to leave without you, at which point you basically are dead (even if you survive, unless your team likes playing corporate prison break...), or really all it takes is one mook who says "Hey look at that guy on the ground he's still breathing *blam*" to end your existence.



But anyway, we're kinda derailing the topic here. If you want to keep up the discussion, we can make a new thread.

Tyndmyr
2011-03-25, 12:45 PM
Or you could run away, have the fallen character be captured, and stage a rescue operation.

Or you could surrender, and use social skills to point out how the opponents have nothing to gain by killing you.

Or, in D&D, true rez.

There's also magical retreats like teleportation, or ways to avoid ranged, like smoke grenades.

If you never prepare any way to run from a fight, you're gonna get screwed eventually, and when you do, it'll be your fault.

The Big Dice
2011-03-25, 01:19 PM
If you never prepare any way to run from a fight, you're gonna get screwed eventually, and when you do, it'll be your fault.
This is so true in all systems.

Friv
2011-03-25, 01:29 PM
Have you ever seen a homebrew fix that works? I've seen a lot of groups give all exalted a bunch of free Ox Bodies but I don't know the system well enough to know if it helps.

Not a good plan, usually. It helps against high-damage effects, but it also helps a lot more against anything not optimized for rocket tag, and it does nothing about the entire secondary class of problems the game has. The result is to encourage destruction even more.

The problems that need to be fixed for a homebrew Exalted would be:

1) High-damage equipment and effects that requires low or no power expenditure (the "0-mote kill"). This covers a lot of stuff.
2) The prevelance of powers which, although they don't do damage, will ruin you forever if you can't defend against them - poisons and diseases that chop six or eight dice off your pools, effects that drop your permanent Essence, things that leave you immobilized and easily murdered, grapples, etc. This is the "Bad Touch" effects, and covers a really big lot of stuff.
3) The ability for sneak attacks to bypass defense completely, allowing the delivery of massive damage and the two above problems.
4) Magic that ramps damage into the stratosphere.
5) The ability to throw seven different types of attacks at once in a fight, forcing you to be able to defend against all seven types or die. ("Hit them with a poison cloud, mind control, a windstorm, a ninja attack, and a reshaping of reality now!")
6) The fact that the motes you use to defend yourself are also the motes you use to hit your enemies, effectively creating a system where you are spending HP to attack.

Fixing all of these problems takes so much work that no one's been able to do it yet. Mostly, people throw patches here and there, and come to agreements not to try and destroy the system. Or they adapt the game to new rulesets entirely.