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View Full Version : Value of the mastery (AKA improved critical) feats



Choco
2011-03-21, 01:45 PM
I was looking at epic level feats to pick up when(if) I eventually make it that high up, and am actually stuck considering one of these. I could see that for a lot of classes critting on a 19-20 instead of just a 20 would not make THAT much of a difference, and considering that I am playing a dual-wielding ranger and use a heavy blade in each hand I am going to be making A LOT of attacks throughout the round, and more rolls means more chances to crit. Doubling my chances of critting on top of that seems like it would be a good idea.

So what do y'all think, would taking the Heavy Blade Mastery feat be worth it?

Daftendirekt
2011-03-21, 02:03 PM
Do what I did with MY dual-wielding ranger that I'm currently playing:

Melegaunt's Darkblade. (Lv 12+)
Heavy Blade, Light Blade
Critical: +3d6 cold damage, or +3d10 cold damage against shadow creatures.
Crits on 19 or 20.

It's like Jagged, but better (IMO, its crit is better than 10 ongoing.)

Basically, feat is totally unnecessary in your case.

ShaggyMarco
2011-03-21, 02:03 PM
What happens when you crit?

If it causes all sorts of awful stuff to happen to your target, then by all means, take the feat.

If it's just basic 5d6 or 6d6+Max damage, it might not be worth a valuable feat slot. There will likely be more interesting things you can get--but if you've put any sort of resources into Crit optimization, you definitely need to top it off with an extended threat range.

Daftendirekt
2011-03-21, 02:05 PM
The Mastery feats just make you crit on 19-20 with that weapon group. What your crit does depends entirely on your weapon.

Also, the only build I know of that is really worth crit optimizing with is a Daggermaster rogue with Bloodiron Daggers. Or Avenger multiclassed into rogue for the PP to get rerolling cheese.

ShaggyMarco
2011-03-21, 02:35 PM
What your crit does depends entirely on your weapon.

Not at all. There are feats that gives lots of cool bonuses on crits. There are other items that trigger when you crit (War Rings, for example). There are even Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies that trigger cool things when you crit.

If you've gotten any of those things, getting twice the benefit is worth the mastery feat.

If you've not spent any resources on acquiring those things, I'm not sure the extended range is worth it.

That's what I was asking. If all a crit-hit gets you is whatever your weapon triggers, it sounds like, for you, it's not worth it.

Gillric
2011-03-21, 05:11 PM
I wouldnt take the feat to get the extra crit range, there are several good fullblades that have that crit range which is much better.

gurban
2011-03-21, 05:19 PM
If you are playing an Epic Level barbarian, this feat is a must.

MeeposFire
2011-03-21, 07:48 PM
This conversation came up on the WotC Op boards recently, though the question was whether the crit feats were overvalued.

In the end the consensus overall was that crits can easily be made worth it for crit mastery but if you have nothing for bonuses on crits it was not worth it. Barbarians, avengers, two weapon opening characters, and other builds that like crits it is a very good. Warlords that have no special crits would not really need enhanced crits if it does not come naturally (as in don't go crazy trying to get the stats).

Sol
2011-03-23, 02:53 AM
This conversation came up on the WotC Op boards recently, though the question was whether the crit feats were overvalued.

In the end the consensus overall was that crits can easily be made worth it for crit mastery but if you have nothing for bonuses on crits it was not worth it. Barbarians, avengers, two weapon opening characters, and other builds that like crits it is a very good. Warlords that have no special crits would not really need enhanced crits if it does not come naturally (as in don't go crazy trying to get the stats).

Exactly this.

Avengers often build around on-crit effects, because oath target rerolls give avengers an abnormally high crit-rate. Even people who aren't trying to cheese it by MCing rogue or dilettante-ing twin strike for multiple attacks per round can end up with a 20% chance to crit.

For instance...in my last campaign that got to epic, i played an avenger/ardent champion/punisher of the gods.

When I crit, if it is against my punisher curse target, I deal 3W+6d10+12+1d10....maximized....extra damage. That's 118 damage. (Bloodiron Fullblade+6. High Crit gets me the 3W (3d12), its crit bonus is 6d10 and will be applied again at the start of my target's turn. the 12 is a ring of giants and the 1d10 is a war ring.)

Assuming I crit on my oath target and it was the first attack I made against it that turn, Painful Oath gave it the radiant keyword, which means I activate punishing radiance and font of radiance, giving every target in 5 squares vulnerable radiant 10, and sticking a zone under my target in a close burst 1 that deals 3d6 radiant damage to any enemy that ends its turn adjacent to my target (and to the target).

I then make a MBA attack against my target as a free-action due to ardent champion. I can use Overwhelming Strike for this because of Power of Skill, so I deal an extra 2d12+17 damage. Still maximized because of punisher curse, so that's 41. Pervasive Light lets me use its radiant vulnerability even though i didn't deal radiant damage, so that's another 10. Running total: 169.

When I crit my punisher curse target I got an extra standard action which i can only use to attack my punisher curse target. I could wait until next turn to use it, but I'll go ahead and do it now. Just for consistency's sake, lets use another Overwhelming Strike, for another 51 damage. Running Total: 220.

My turn ends. When my target's turn starts, he takes the other 6d10 from bloodiron as well as another 8 (my wisdom mod) from slashing storm for being adjacent to me. If he fails his saves at the end of his turn, he will take another 3d6+10 damage from Font of Radiance and Punishing Radiance, bringing the total up to 316 damage.

And that's not even counting the extra damage I could have done by using an encounter or daily power in place of the second overwhelming strike, and it's ignoring any other mobs that could have been hit by slashing storm and font of radiance. It's also assuming my target doesn't try and run away (provoking an OA) on his turn. Because between deadly draw (overwhelming strike slides him so i have advantage) and censure's grip (oath target giving me CA cannot shift after i hit them), he can't move without me attacking him with Overwhelming Strike again. And I'd do 14 bonus damage because he moved away from me (6+dex).

It also assumes everything hits, but with an 87% hit rate (and more than one emergency reroll interrupt), it does.

Even if that only happens every 5 turns, even without doing any damage at all on those other turns, I've met the striker minimum.

Rangers, as another class that rolls two or more attack dice per round, can do similar things.

But if your crit bonus is that you just maximized your 2d8 cleric hammer at-will, doubling the frequency of that isn't worth a lot.

Kurald Galain
2011-03-23, 04:17 AM
So what do y'all think, would taking the Heavy Blade Mastery feat be worth it?
Not particularly, unless you invest in items or feats that do nasty stuff on a crit. For example, if you prone or daze an enemy on a crit, it becomes much more interesting.

Nu
2011-03-23, 08:49 AM
I was looking at epic level feats to pick up when(if) I eventually make it that high up, and am actually stuck considering one of these. I could see that for a lot of classes critting on a 19-20 instead of just a 20 would not make THAT much of a difference, and considering that I am playing a dual-wielding ranger and use a heavy blade in each hand I am going to be making A LOT of attacks throughout the round, and more rolls means more chances to crit. Doubling my chances of critting on top of that seems like it would be a good idea.

So what do y'all think, would taking the Heavy Blade Mastery feat be worth it?

If I qualified for the feat, I'd take it (as a Striker, 100% of the time, it could vary for others). By epic level, you're wielding magical weapons that deal tons of extra damage on a crit, and might even have features and powers that work well with crits.

For a ranger, whose primary role in a party is to deal tons of damage, yes, Heavy Blade Mastery is definitely a keeper. Combine with Two-Weapon Opening and Epic Resurgence for more fun.

With that said, for classes like paladins that have to bend over backward to get the proper ability scores to qualify for mastery feats, it's probably not worth it to try.

Choco
2011-03-23, 10:14 AM
Alright, thanks for all the input guys!


If I qualified for the feat, I'd take it (as a Striker, 100% of the time, it could vary for others). By epic level, you're wielding magical weapons that deal tons of extra damage on a crit, and might even have features and powers that work well with crits.

For a ranger, whose primary role in a party is to deal tons of damage, yes, Heavy Blade Mastery is definitely a keeper. Combine with Two-Weapon Opening and Epic Resurgence for more fun.

In addition to me being able to roll ~10 attacks a round when going nova, I have a Harmony bastard sword that grants a free melee basic attack on a crit. That might be worth the feat.

ShaggyMarco
2011-03-23, 11:17 AM
Bonus attack on a crit does make, in my opinion, the extended threat range feats worth it.

Jaidu
2011-03-23, 11:44 AM
I was playing a daggermaster rogue recently, with two weapon opening, and I crit on four consecutive rounds against the same monster (one was a coup-de-grace) which meant four free melee basic attacks (I missed most of them, though. Dice luck balance, perhaps) and a minor action attack (from the PP). Unfortunately, my DM decided to throw two elite brutes, an elite controller, four normal skirmishers and a lurker, all level 14, at our level 11 party. I actually needed the four crits against a brute to drop it.

In short, with the extra attacks on a crit, and being able to max my sneak attack dice, I was glad for the increased crit range.

juggalotis
2011-03-23, 12:23 PM
i would say if it suits your character better then other feats, go for it. if its just to minmax then not to bother.

Choco
2011-03-23, 12:44 PM
i would say if it suits your character better then other feats, go for it. if its just to minmax then not to bother.

Oddly enough that strikes at the heart of the matter.

I will probably take it because it DOES fit the character, but at the same time I am also min/maxing to a limited degree. My previous character was a controller, but the DM never lays out any interesting terrain OR uses minions, so I was basically "the guy who moved things into flanking position". The rest of the group is of the "damage is everything" mentality too, so everyone (in character and out) ripped on me for being useless (half jokingly, half annoyed that I aint pulling my weight). So the DM let me retire him and now I am making a striker, who even with limited min/maxing at lvl 8 can already out-damage the other 3 party members by a fair amount (based on their performance so far) :smallbiggrin:.

Sol
2011-03-23, 12:46 PM
Alright, thanks for all the input guys!



In addition to me being able to roll ~10 attacks a round when going nova, I have a Harmony bastard sword that grants a free melee basic attack on a crit. That might be worth the feat.

Just keep in mind that most DMs will rule that your free MBA from critting can only occur once per round. If you're rolling 10 attack dice per round, with a 10% chance to crit, it will average out to one crit per round, but you'll get multiples fairly often. In those situations, the extra dice from bloodiron are worth more damage than a MBA. depending on the strength of your MBA, they might already be worth more.

ShaggyMarco
2011-03-23, 12:47 PM
I was playing a daggermaster rogue recently, with two weapon opening, and I crit on four consecutive rounds against the same monster (one was a coup-de-grace) which meant four free melee basic attacks (I missed most of them, though. Dice luck balance, perhaps) and a minor action attack (from the PP). Unfortunately, my DM decided to throw two elite brutes, an elite controller, four normal skirmishers and a lurker, all level 14, at our level 11 party. I actually needed the four crits against a brute to drop it.

In short, with the extra attacks on a crit, and being able to max my sneak attack dice, I was glad for the increased crit range.

Of course, with the errata concerning free action attacks (1 free attack as a free action/round) this no longer works.

Jaidu
2011-03-23, 12:58 PM
Of course, with the errata concerning free action attacks (1 free attack as a free action/round) this no longer works.

As stated in my post:


I crit on four consecutive rounds against the same monster (one was a coup-de-grace) which meant four free melee basic attacks

Four separate rounds, four free attack actions.

Gillric
2011-03-23, 12:59 PM
Oddly enough that strikes at the heart of the matter.

I will probably take it because it DOES fit the character, but at the same time I am also min/maxing to a limited degree. My previous character was a controller, but the DM never lays out any interesting terrain OR uses minions, so I was basically "the guy who moved things into flanking position". The rest of the group is of the "damage is everything" mentality too, so everyone (in character and out) ripped on me for being useless (half jokingly, half annoyed that I aint pulling my weight). So the DM let me retire him and now I am making a striker, who even with limited min/maxing at lvl 8 can already out-damage the other 3 party members by a fair amount (based on their performance so far) :smallbiggrin:.

Damage is everything??? My goodness, that is never a good mentality, you need a balance in your group.

Choco
2011-03-23, 01:07 PM
Damage is everything??? My goodness, that is never a good mentality, you need a balance in your group.

Well, counting me and 1 new player we now got:

2 defenders
2 strikers
1 leader

Controllers are not needed due to reasons I mentioned in my previous post. The one defender (the other one is the new guy, so don't know yet) and the leader are all somewhat min/maxed (maybe that was my problem, I didn't min/max my controller...) and can do decent damage in addition to fulfilling their roles.

As such, I built myself a striker who is good at surviving on her own (has uber high defenses, especially against quarry, and gets attack and damage boosts when fighting 1v1) to make up for a defender geared more towards damage. Also I will be the ONLY character capable of dealing with ranged enemies, I made sure to take that into account.

EDIT: Oh, and besides, this group is far from serious. Case in point, the highlight of last session was a miniboss being 1-shotted in a way that even if I posted it here in spoiler tags with a warning I would be violating at least 2 inappropriate topics in the forum rules.

MeeposFire
2011-03-28, 02:35 AM
Of course, with the errata concerning free action attacks (1 free attack as a free action/round) this no longer works.

Careful not all extra attacks are free action attacks. Rending weapons give you an extra attack on a crit and are not a free action attack. You have to look at every individual ability to determine a problem.

Sol
2011-03-28, 10:30 AM
Careful not all extra attacks are free action attacks. Rending weapons give you an extra attack on a crit and are not a free action attack. You have to look at every individual ability to determine a problem.

A lot of DMs will deem the RAI of the errata 1 extra attack/crit, and not let you use rending along with, say, the rampage class feature. The only second extra attack I'm aware of off the top of my head that's truly immune to DM fiat is the Punisher of the Gods Immortal Curse effect, which specifically grants you an extra standard action which you can use immediately or on your next turn, but only to attack the target of your curse which must also be the target you crit.