Core only rogue, need help!

[Raendyn]

Hello playgroudners, it's been some time...

I don't know if there is already a core rogue thread but i always get kicked out due to time overflow, or w/e in the search.If a relevant thread exists please redirect me.

The thing in my situation is that 90% of what i use to make a character comes from supplement books.Core only always seemed "meh" for my taste, but now i got into this game because of the good company & i can not find something that it's not "meh".Addint that most of my friends spam that core rogue sucks i got rly obsessed with making something formidable here.

And to do so i need little help.

I am human 2lvl rogue,i just got my third & i have not decided yet what class to take
my stats are 12 15 14 10 14 12 & my 1st lvl feat is TWF( human bonus feat was Quick draw but, i could not take it since it cas prereq bab +1) so now i am gona take 2 feats.

Just for the record, i had in mind the flask touch attack route,but since my DM won't allow me to take Craven it seems a "meh" choise,after that i thought EWP Spiked chain, but now it also seems "meh" in my head.

Looking forward to your suggestions,thanks in advance :smallwink:

[sonofzeal]

Multiclassing can probably help, if you're stuck in Core. Fighter, Barbarian, and Ranger dips can all be useful. Assassin and Arcane Trickster are both viable options - and the Wiz dip for Arcane Trickster will let you make alchemy for a third the cost (and no xp penalty since it's not magical).

Beyond that, just grab yourself some good wands, and have fun!

[Eldariel]

Frankly? Don't go Human unless you're a caster in Core; martial types were given a horrible pool of feats with a handful of standouts you can pick up with just your level-ups.

Halfling or Gnome would probably work to your advantage though the movement speed loss is kinda painful; I suppose you don't really have many good options aside from perhaps Wild Elf (and even then, Int-penalty is annoying). Dwarf has nice adjustments but the movement speed penalty is still there.


Far as feats go, Rogue really only wants TWF and then...nothing much. Weapon Finesse you can't pick up before level 3 anyways, and stuff like Dodge and Weapon Focus are already the next best options. Combat Expertise doesn't really work in your favor that often due to your poor BAB and combat maneuvers are fairly uninteresting due to lowish (probably) Str. And Power Attack on a TWFer? Yeah, no.

[hivedragon]

Frankly? Don't go Human unless you're a caster in Core; martial types were given a horrible pool of feats with a handful of standouts you can pick up with just your level-ups.

Halfling or Gnome would probably work to your advantage though the movement speed loss is kinda painful

how about kobold or goblin?
(MM is core)

[sonofzeal]

Rogues are fairly tight for feats as far as Core goes. TWF is a major feat commitment, almost half your available feats if you want to max it.

Two Weapon Defence, while terrible, is still better than Dodge.

If you're going for throwing vials, you'll need Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot. Probably Far Shot too, because 10 foot range increments suck. And Precise Shot is going to be a solid +4 to hit in a lot of important fights, so it becomes more important than Weapon Focus (static +1) or Weapon Finesse (a static +1 for you until later).

If you ever run out of feats you need, Great Fortitude and Iron Will are always important for a Rogue.

[Raendyn]

thanks for the advises till now.

Please don't tell me about other races it is already human, i can change it w/o reincarnation:smallbiggrin:

[Eldariel]

how about kobold or goblin?
(MM is core)

Oh, I forgot about Goblin. Yeah, they're a fair call; 30' movement speed in exchange for Charisma-penalty. It's actually my preferred Core-race for Rogues. Guess that's out of the window tho.


Rogues are fairly tight for feats as far as Core goes. TWF is a major feat commitment, almost half your available feats if you want to max it.

Two Weapon Defence, while terrible, is still better than Dodge.

This isn't 100% true - remember that Animated Shields still exist and Rogues have no restrictions for using them (other than, y'know, the usual proficiency stuff); they don't come into play much before level 9 though (at that point, 10000 for +2-3 AC begins to become a reasonable investment). On low levels tho, TWD can be worthwhile as long as you're aware that it'll be obsolete once you get an animated shield.

Dodge is slightly worse to start off and slightly better down the road. So if you gotta take an extra feat level 1, just go Dodge or TWD depending on how long you expect for the campaign to last.

[Firechanter]

Oh, if you are taking your third level now, the feat choice at least is obvious: Weapon Finesse, no contest.

I too would consider 2 or 6 levels in Ranger instead of buying TWF feats with your slots. In that case, Favoured Enemy preferably stuff that is Crit- and Sneak-immune, i.e. probably Undead, or whatever occurs more often in your campaign, so you won't be completely useless in those fights.

Pretty much the coolest thing Core Rogue has to offer - in my opinion - is Crippling Strike. If you're going for that, of course you need at least 10 Rogue levels, but apart from that more attacks and higher attack bonus are paramount and more important than extra Sneak Attack dice.
A Rogue 10 / Ranger 6 for example gives you +5d6 Sneak Attack, Crippling Strike and 5 attacks per round.

If you're going to go that route, I'd level Rogue 4 / Ranger 2 / Rogue +6 (10) / Ranger +4, and go from there. An added minor benefit is that Ranger gives you Shield Prof, which at low levels is often more beneficial than accepting TWF penalties.

I would advise to stay well clear of the Dodge/Mob/Spring Attack chain -- most of its benefits are made obsolete by Tumble.
Later on, you might or maybe should take Weapon Focus:Short Sword; of course you'll also fight with dual shorties so you gain double benefit.

PrCs:
Of course, in case you are Evil, Assassin can be pretty cool: you automatically meet the entry requirements, no dump feats at all, and get a lot of nice stuff. If you go that way, keep in mind that Int now is a primary stat for you.

Shadowdancer otoh I wouldn't bother with, the entry prereqs are ridiculous -- effectively 3 dump feats, since as TWFer you don't get much out of Combat Reflexes. If you want to "Hide in Plain Sight", get some item that grants you Concealment.

P.S.: even if you're not multiclassing into a Martial class, get yourself a Mithral Buckler. ACP 0 --> nonproficiency doesn't affect you squat.

[sonofzeal]

Oh, if you are taking your third level now, the feat choice at least is obvious: Weapon Finesse, no contest.

Why?!?

Weapon Finesse is a +1 to hit right now. That's piddly, when he's going to need 3-4 feats to get his acid-throwing skills off the ground.

[Flickerdart]

Take a look at his stats - Weapon Finesse would only give him +1 to hit right now. There's no point in taking it until at 6th level, where the 4th level stat boost and an affordable item of +DEX will make that increase a +3 and worth a feat.

Edit: How appropriate, the rogue thread is full of ninjas.

[sonofzeal]

Take a look at his stats - Weapon Finesse would only give him +1 to hit right now. There's no point in taking it until at 6th level, where the 4th level stat boost and an affordable item of +DEX will make that increase a +3 and worth a feat.

Edit: How appropriate, the rogue thread is full of ninjas.
We prefer the term "Swordages".

[Firechanter]

Well, by 4th level the difference will already be 2 points. Depending on when he can get his hands on those +2 Dex gloves - 5th is not unrealistic - Weapon Finesse may make a real difference before 6th level.
(Of course, we don't know atm how quickly they rise in level, how closely the DM sticks to Wealth by Level, etc.)

But to be honest, I hadn't paid such close attention to his stats. ;)

[Flickerdart]

Do note that you can progress Assassin casting with Arcane Trickster (why you'd want to is beyond me, but you could) and similarly, use Assassin to enter Arcane Trickster faster (Wizard 5/Rogue 1/Assassin 1 gives you +2d6 SA one level faster than Wizard 5/Rogue 3). Getting Bard involved somehow could be better than Wizard due to the BAB and skills - Bard 8/Rogue 1/Assassin 1/Arcane Trickster 10 would be a decent way to staple Sneak Attack to the class, with 6th level spells and 7d6 SA (and a BAB that's sadly none too great, though Inspire Courage +2 and, should you wish to go Bard 9 instead, Inspire Greatness, helps) while keeping a juicy skill list throughout.

[Raendyn]

Thanks for your advices,

I am currently leaning towards flask touch attacks, but also bard multyclassing to bard seems not very "meh" in my head.

But that arcane trickster build some1 suggested seems interesting as well.

[ericgrau]

Skip TWF you're too fragile. At least until very high levels, if ever. Rapid death on top of the attack bonus and split magic weapon drawbacks reducing your actual damage makes it not worth it. Actual damage before running out of HP goes down not up. Grab a masterwork buckler, which has no nonprociency penalty. But this early you'll do best with a bow or other ranged weapon and maybe rapid shot to get your surprise round and round 1 sneak attacks (opponents that haven't acted yet are flat footed). Or maybe thrown weapons, which work with both rapid shot and TWF (if you must). Thrown weapons are decent at low levels if you can get in range because, unlike high levels when they're magical, you can afford to carry several. Other than rapid shot/weapon finesse (depending on your style) your best feat option in core is weapon focus. Especially with medium BAB classes like rogues. All that damage and number of attacks looks fine on paper but doesn't mean much if you score few hits. That also means that if you want to transition from range early to melee later then daggers or shortspears make a good choice b/c you can use the same weapon focus for range and melee. Plus halflings get a racial bonus on throwing.

EDIT: If you're already stuck with TWF then it still works ok with a thrower until later levels.

For that matter core rogues aren't that special in combat overall. What they are really are skillmonkeys who can also fight ok. I assume your party needs a skillmonkey so do what you can there too. Check all the synergy bonuses, size bonuses, racial bonuses/special abilities, masterwork tools, and at higher levels skill boosting armor enchantments.

[Raendyn]

the problem is that only PH is available to me.
I am already human so stop making me feel like killing my char & reroll halfling.

Even items & stuff i can only access PH. DMG items come only from the DM. i can not buy anything...

I can only touch DMG for prestiges...

On the back of my head my dm did not ban Leadership..... :nale:


edit: MIC is off limits,MM too...

[thompur]

You may consider taking a level of sorcerer. Any cantrip that requires a ranged touch attack can be used for SA damage. And since most of your damage comes from SA, the fact that they do so little primary damage won't matter.

[Caliphbubba]

You may consider taking a level of sorcerer. Any cantrip that requires a ranged touch attack can be used for SA damage. And since most of your damage comes from SA, the fact that they do so little primary damage won't matter.

this seems reasonable. plus it makes using wands and other goodies a lot easier.

[Firechanter]

the problem is that only PH is available to me.
I am already human so stop making me feel like killing my char & reroll halfling.


Eh, human isn't too bad. Our old group's halfling rogue player got annoyed with her race choice at some point due to the speed penalty.

[Doc Roc]

UMD is godly in core, when you have actual class features, and it's an actual skill for you. The thing is, you're too low level to make it go right now, but go ahead and max it. You'll have spare skills.

[Thespianus]

Running the risk of seeming crazy, I'm throwing Monk onto the table:

It's a good 1 level dip, you get Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist (you have a decent Wis-score, with a +2 modifier, and it scales with your character level, not monk level), Wis to AC and 3 good saves.

Use your 2 Feats to grab Quick Draw and Combat Reflexes. You'll have tons of options this way, and you won't super-suck.

*dives for cover* ;)