ToB - Moving Save DC's away from STR?

[subject42]

Between core and ToB, it's easy to build a character that uses it's Dexterity modifier for both to-hit and damage calculations. Unfortunately, this makes the save DCs for maneuvers sub-par, as they are almost universally calculated using the character's Strength modifier.

Has anyone found a way around this? Search hasn't turned up anything, unfortunately.

[Eldariel]

Between core and ToB, it's easy to build a character that uses it's Dexterity modifier for both to-hit and damage calculations. Unfortunately, this makes the save DCs for maneuvers sub-par, as they are almost universally calculated using the character's Strength modifier.

Has anyone found a way around this? Search hasn't turned up anything, unfortunately.

Eh, no, ToB saves are really so all over the place that there's no real way to change them around. Some are Str, some Dex and some Wis, depending mostly on school. But there are so few save-providing maneuvers in the first place that no feats were just developed for it.

[Zaq]

I'm pretty sure that none of them are DEX-based, Eldariel. The only DEX-based save I know of offhand is the Muckdweller's spitting ability.

EDIT: I just checked. The saves are:

Desert Wind: WIS
Devoted Spirit: CHA
Diamond Mind: STR
Iron Heart: STR
Setting Sun: DEX, STR
Shadow Hand: WIS
Stone Dragon: STR
Tiger Claw: STR
White Raven: N/A

So, I stand corrected. There is a single Setting Sun maneuver (Clever Positioning) that is based on DEX. My mistake.

[Runestar]

The saves will scale at a pathetically slow rate, so it is rarely ever worth it, IMO.:smallannoyed:

[Saph]

The saves will scale at a pathetically slow rate, so it is rarely ever worth it, IMO.:smallannoyed:

Eh, not really. The formula is the same as for spells. Save DC = 10 + effect level + ability modifier.

Warblades generally manage fine, as the saves for all four of their schools key off Strength, which is their primary stat. Crusaders don't care since they almost never use any save maneuvers anyway. The only ones who have problems are Swordsages, since the main schools they'll be using with save-or-X maneuvers are Desert Wind and Shadow Hand, which use Wis, which is a Swordsage's secondary stat. But even then, it's generally only a difference of 2-3 points or so, and again, the majority of Swordsage maneuvers are no-save.

[Firechanter]

I agree. Pretty much the only Save-triggering maneuver that's actually worth it is this Dragon-somethingsomething from Tiger's Claw, whose Save DC is your Jump check. So that is really awesome.

If you want to make the other save maneuvers really worthwhile, maybe you should copy that and have the DC set by the most appropriate skill check. Since skills can get very high, the effect will usually go through.

[Eldariel]

I agree. Pretty much the only Save-triggering maneuver that's actually worth it is this Dragon-somethingsomething from Tiger's Claw, whose Save DC is your Jump check. So that is really awesome.

If you want to make the other save maneuvers really worthwhile, maybe you should copy that and have the DC set by the most appropriate skill check. Since skills can get very high, the effect will usually go through.

Dazing Blow from Diamond Mind is also just fine. Daze is a very powerful condition and Strength is easy to buff. I've actually used it to a good effect on an arena (though I had Wildshape to turbocharge my Strength but still). One of the better ways to leverage a standard action.

[Runestar]

Eh, not really. The formula is the same as for spells. Save DC = 10 + effect level + ability modifier.

Except that they almost all target fort, which tends to be a monster's strongest save. Also, means to further boost this DC are few and far in between.

For example, a fire giant's fort save is +14. Dazing blow's DC is probably 20 (base10+5maneuver+5str), maybe 21 with blade meditation. That's a pretty low chance of success.

I would rather just go with effects like white raven hammer, which stuns without save. :smallcool:

[Saph]

Except that they almost all target fort, which tends to be a monster's strongest save. Also, means to further boost this DC are few and far in between.

For example, a fire giant's fort save is +14. Dazing blow's DC is probably 20 (base10+5maneuver+5str), maybe 21 with blade meditation. That's a pretty low chance of success.

That's why you use Disrupting Blow instead. Same level, almost exactly the same effect, but it's a Will save. :smallbiggrin:

Of course White Raven Hammer's far better, but it's level 8 instead of level 5 and effectively Crusader-only.

[Douglas]

Of course White Raven Hammer's far better, but it's level 8 instead of level 5 and effectively Crusader-only.
No, Warblades get it too. Devoted Spirit is the only Crusader exclusive school. And, of course, there are a few PrCs that could grab it.

[Saph]

Oh yeah - White Raven, not Devoted Spirit. Silly me.

Well, I guess that shows how often I actually get a ToB character to that level. :smalltongue:

[Douglas]

Well, I guess that shows how often I actually get a ToB character to that level. :smalltongue:
Considering "White Raven" is, you know, right there in the maneuver name, I don't think that's it.:smalltongue:

[Eldariel]

Except that they almost all target fort, which tends to be a monster's strongest save. Also, means to further boost this DC are few and far in between.

For example, a fire giant's fort save is +14. Dazing blow's DC is probably 20 (base10+5maneuver+5str), maybe 21 with blade meditation. That's a pretty low chance of success.

I was thinking of Disrupting Blow; got the names confused for obvious reasons. Buut yeah, same as with spells, aiming the weak saves works. And I mean, sure, WRH is better but it's also superhigh level compared to the level 9 of the save-or-X effects.

[Saph]

Considering "White Raven" is, you know, right there in the maneuver name, I don't think that's it.:smalltongue:

Shush, you. :smalltongue:

To be honest, I think Disrupting Blow is the only one of the ToB save-or-X maneuvers I've ever used. In most cases it's easier just to hit them with damage. My players in my current game are fans of Bonecrusher, but that's mostly because of the +4d6 damage rather than the very-rarely-useful side effect.