View Full Version : [Legend] New Beta PDF up for review - now with cohort rules!

2011-03-21, 09:50 PM

The new PDF (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B8lf_LtvhqMlMTQ1MzU4YWQtZTlhYy00MTRlLThlZjI tZDYzOTQxYWFjNGQ4&hl=en&authkey=CL-xzbQI) incorporates bugfixes for things reported in the "Free Beta" thread. More importantly, though, we're introducing new rules for cohorts, found in chapter 7.3. Please do review these; they're a significant departure from the "leadership" system used in other d20 systems.

Also, we are still looking for feedback on the new feats, found in Chapter 5.

We hope to complete material for finding and acquiring cohorts, along with sample social encounters and a couple new ability tracks, for the next review cycle.

Good luck to all of you who are planning to run or play in a [i]Legend game in the next few days or weeks. Thanks in advance for your valuable and insightful feedback.

Doc Roc
2011-03-21, 10:07 PM
I'm hoping we'll get lucky and be able to post a couple samples in thread, so I'm reserving this post.

ex cathedra
2011-03-21, 11:43 PM
I'm (slowly) proof-reading the new beta. When I reach relevant material, I'll leave my own personal opinions here, but for now this is mostly typography changes that I suggest.

Changes in bold.

Page 5, Section: 1.1 The Core Mechanic:("Difficultly Class" or DC, or "Armor Class" or AC in the case of an attack)

Page 8, Table: Base Attack Bonus: Typo on row 15, column Fast, and row 20, column Medium. Both should be 15/10/10, rather than 15/1010.

Page 10, Section: 2.1.5 Feat Selection: (humans and halflings can choose that feat freely, ...)

Page 10, Section 2.1.5 Feat Selection, and Page 16, Section Multiclassing: It is not specified whether you lose your generic feat slot or your racial feat slot. As such, as written, many races can choose to multiclass by sacrificing one of their three racial feats. Whether this was intended is unclear, but it is a strictly better option for the player than sacrificing their normal feat.

Page 12, Section 2.3.1 Leveling Up, Subsection Increase Hit Points and Saving Throw Bonuses: Contains no information regarding increasing saving throw bonuses.

Page 12, Section 2.3.1 Leveling Up, Subsection Increase Ability Score: Title should be "Ability Scores", and Section 2.3.2 is incorrectly represented as "Section 2.3.20."

Page 12, Section 2.3.1 Leveling Up, Subsection Choose New Class/Track Features: Change to (If any of your ability tracks for this level...)

2011-03-22, 08:10 AM
Further nitpickery - I'm avoiding the crunchy chapters on classes and feats for now, in favour of getting a handle on the core rules first. Hence why I started on page 60-something.

Cover Page - Should be (c) 2011.

1.1 - You say 'roll a d20' but don't explain what a d20 is until the next paragraph.

p8 - The BAB table should be in the classes chapter along with the other level-dependent benefits.

The progression names still don't match what they're called in the classes chapter.

p66 - Surprise Round? No text to go with header.

p66 - Actions - The text about 'actions per round' doesn't quite match the description of free actions under 'free action'.

Also, can you still trade in your standard action for a move?

In fact, as a general note, Legend is still a bit patchy in places where you've moved away from being 'a variant D&D ruleset' and towards 'an independent game system'. I'm never quite sure where you've just flat removed the option to do something, and where I'm supposed to be filling in the gaps with d20 knowledge. 'Actions' is a good example, since it could really do with a list of common activities (standing up, picking something up, opening a door, etc.) and the action cost of each. And whether or not they provoke AoOs (see below).

p67 - Immediate Action. This could do with clarification. Try:

"An immediate action is similar to a swift action, but can be taken when it is not your turn. Taking an immediate action counts as taking your next turn's swift action, so you can only perform one per turn. You cannot use an immediate action if you are [flat-footed]."

Note: I'm not sure what criteria you're using to tag game-mechanical terminology. It seems pretty haphazard at the moment.

p67 - Distance - I think dealing with diagonals is important to cover in distance rather than movement, but you might want to rewrite the second paragraph to talk less about movement and more about distance.

p68 - Range - Cut the first sentence under 6.2.2 (about range and distance being measured differently). It's contradictory to everything else you say about range.

Also also, you say in 6.2.1 that distances are expressed in squares, but everything in the range section measures distances in feet. I know it's an easy conversion, but if you're going to do everything in squares then you should stay internally consistent.

p68 - Duration - Your definition of 'scene' in the sidebar doesn't quite mesh with the one in the text. I would move the sentence "Scene-long buffs ... to another." to the main text, for the sake of clarity, and cut the part in the text about them ending at the end of the session.

Also, the sidebar should have some sort of section delineator between the bit about quest-long effects and the bit about scene-long.

p69 - Flight, Average Maneueoeverability - "...must always spend a move action to move at least XX feet on their turn or begin falling." would be clearer.

p69 - Attacks of Opportunity - what kind of action is an AoO? Given how you've defined actions elsewhere, I'd be inclined to specifically say that it does not count as an action, but effects that prevent you from taking action also prevent you from making AoOs.

It could be made clearer under 'Five-Foot Step' that taking one does not provoke an AoO.

'A distracting act' is incredibly vague. If your intention is to leave as little as possible to the GM's whim, then you'll need to tighten this up.

p69 - Bull Rush - How does making a bull rush interact with movement? As in, does it cost my movement to push a bull-rushed target? Does it cost double? Or can I bull rush, use 50% of my move, then use the other 50% to turn around and come back the way I came?

Also note that it doesn't mention anywhere what a push is, exactly, or that you have to move along with a pushed opponent if you choose to spend your move pushing them.

Does a pushed victim provoke AoOs? Do you, while pushing? How about for that first square - do other people nearby also get to AoO you, or just the target?

p69 - Charge - Charge doesn't require a target or a minimum move. I think this opens it up to some corner-case cheese, but YMMV.

p70 - Combat Tricks in General - What exactly counts as 'an attack'? Can I charge and fight defensively? (Probably not.) Can I charge and power attack? (Not RAW, but it seems intuitive that you should be able to.) Can I fight defensively and trip?

p70 - Flurry - I'd be inclined to give monks something nice to make up for the fact that everyone can flurry now (and their class bonus on flurrying is underwhelming).

p70 - Taking Cover - Doesn't require any actual cover. Maybe rename it?

p70 - Disarm and Trip - While I'm only making one attack/round, why would I ever not disarm or trip my enemies? It's strictly better than a basic attack. Compare with a Bull Rush, which is situationally useful but does no damage.

Also, does picking up a dropped weapon provoke? If not, then Disarm is a lot less useful because it offers no way to prevent the opponent from just grabbing their disarmed weapon and full-attacking you with it. Likewise standing up.

p70 - Withdraw - No text.

More in later posts, as I read.

Doc Roc
2011-03-22, 09:49 PM
Chris is taking a break, due to illness and eyestrain. He'll still be reading, and I'll be taking care of things while he's DC'd. Get well soon, you grue.

2011-03-23, 08:36 AM
All my previous page numbers were off by one. Stupid Acrobat page count.



"Reducing a character to exactly 0 hit points renders it [disabled]."

I don't like the paragraph on death. The status [dead] is actually more informative, and has fewer Monty Python misquotes.

Battered - Healing comes from magic, from Medicine checks, and natural healing - which of these count as healing effects?

Actually... there are no rules in Legend for natural healing. (I searched for 'healing' and 'natural healing' and found nothing about it.)

You could also stand to clarify the dying-disabled-stable thing - it appears in the condition summary, but not in the actual rules.

Also nonlethal damage. It pops up here and there, but there are no rules for it.

Blinded - "All opponents are considered to have total concealment..." - Again with the stuff from the d20 SRD.


The first sentence of dead is ambiguous whether these are conditions that cause death, or effects that are applied when death happens.


I don't understand the commentary on Incorporeal.

Just something I noticed while reading the condition summary: almost all of the penalties are untyped. Intentional?


Prone - You might want to rewrite 'cannot use a ranged weapon (except a crossbow)' to take firearms into account.


Under Level and Power, it would be useful to see a summary of how things change in each five-level bracket. You give the example of increased mobility between 5th and 9th level, but no others.

And that's as far as I've got so far.

2011-03-23, 05:58 PM
Hello, I'm a long time fan of ToS, and have been silently lurking these forms for years. This system is intriguing enough to make me register and post :smallsmile: I love the track system, seem an elegent way to handle multiclassing. However, is there a reason the rogue base class seems so lackluster compared to the others? Just looking at it, Rogue gets the same hp as the monk, but 2 less good saves, worse bab and only one more skill point, and the only path Rogues get that no one else can achieve is Esoterica Radica, which while nice doesn't seem more powerful than any of the other tracks. Is there something I'm missing, or are Rogues just not supposed to be as good as Monks? Also, it seems unlike the other classes, almost all rogue abilities seem to be majorly once per encounter, with few "always on" or "at will" abilities.

(I'm mainly asking these question cause i'm trying to run a small game using these rules, and one of my players really loves rogues, but is disappointed with there apparent handicaps)

Thanks, and keep up the awesome work.

Doc Roc
2011-03-23, 08:06 PM
Oof, yeah, Rogues were the second class written as tracks, whereas monks were the last ones converted. It's an interesting quandary. We're giving rogue another good save, at least, but I don't think its tracks are any weaker than monk's. I personally feel that swashbuckler is one of the strongest tracks in the game. Talk to me more about this? I'm definitely receptive to the opinion, it's been a backburner worry for me too.

2011-03-23, 08:19 PM
Yea, I love the Swashbuckler class, and after further reading noticed alot of what we read as "Once per encounter" were "once per round", which is alot better. Track wise we didn't think rogue was lacking, just lacking in the bab/save department compared to the others.

Also, here's a list of other things we have questions about/noticed need fixing:

Critical hits: Didn't find where they were described. One ability mentioned they did "double damage" but is this double weapon damage? Double all damage dealt with the attack (so a critical sneak attack would double the sneak attack damage as well?)

Five foot step under tactical movement should mention it doesn't provoke, just for clarity.

Should Withdraw action also be listed under "tactical movement"

Combat manuevers should have a heading explaining that everyone gets them (at least i assume they do, if not, how does one obtain them?)

Knife: on page 77 doesnt' list damage (assuming 1d6 + str mod) for holdout weapon

Demon, Undead and Sentient Construct don't have the "One of" wording for bonus racial feats that the other races have, do they get all feats?

Bonus feat section of undead seems to be awkardly worded, that or cuts off mid sentence.

Racial Feats: Is there a reason certain races get racial feats, such as elves, and other races such as dwarves get none? or are feats still a work in progress, with more forthcoming? Seems like every race should get at least one racial feat.


Doc Roc
2011-03-24, 06:15 PM
Sorry for the slow rejoinder! I think this is all excellent data, we'll be giving rogue an additional good save, chosen by the player at first level. The other things are fixed and will be in monday's release!

On feats, racials:
Just unfinished is all.

2011-03-26, 06:56 AM
Tried our first combat, combats are quick, lasted all of two rounds, though with low levels that's understandable. I do have a question though, the combat use of bluff to make opponents flatfooted, can that be done every round? and does it consume a move action, or just done as part of one? I have a rogue in the group who's maxed bluff, and chose it as the "take 10" option, which means unless i specifically build NPC's to be higher levels, or extremely high wisdom, she auto succeeds and runs around doing sneak attack damage on every attack (and since they are flatfooted, she almost always hits), and she uses Flurry every action for the double sneak attack. In fact, it seems statistically, it's always better to flurry since -2 to hit is more than offset by the double chance of landing a blow.

2011-03-26, 11:03 AM
Could you post or PM more details about the rogue's build and level, and the monsters/NPCs the PCs are facing? I want to see what kind of damage we're looking at here, and whether it's unbalancing or just a "nice thing" for the rogue player.

Thanks for the feedback!

ex cathedra
2011-03-26, 11:56 AM
As far as I recall, flurrying at -2 is superior to attacking normally in nearly all situations. I still think that the default penalty should be -3 and/or that Monks should be able to flurry without any penalty at all, but that's not quite the topic at hand. Though, I should point out that the last line in the description of the Monk's Flurry ability (that is, that monks can flurry with melee or ranged weapons) is redundant, considering that everyone else can do the same thing.

2011-03-26, 01:30 PM
Monks are getting no-penalty flurry starting at the next review cycle. I compared their damage potential to the other attack-roll-centric classes and decided that any penalty on flurry was going to cause problems for them.

The statement that Monks can flurry with both melee and ranged weapons is there largely to make very sure that 3.x players don't get confused. It may eventually go away.

2011-03-26, 03:36 PM
We used point buy for stats. The rogue chose STR 8, DEX 18, CON 12, INT 8, WIS 12, and CHA 16.
Race: Human, with +2 Dex, +3 Bluff, +1 Attack Rolls, and Melee Finesse.
1st Feat is Feign Death (so character is not completely optimized for maximal damage)
Track 1: Esoterica Radica - Playing it right: Bluff, Larceny
Track 2: Assassination.
Lesser Item: +2 Cha

So total Melee To Hit is 6 (0BAB, 5DEX, 1Racial). She was using a hold-out weapon so 1d6 +5 dam (from Dex). So when she sneak attacks she does 2d6+5 per hit. If she used a main weapon she would be getting 3d6+5 damage per hit.

The Bluff skill reads that it can be used as part of a move. So on her turn, she moves to the enemy, taking 10 on bluff (total 18, 1rank 4Ability 3race +take 10) to make the enemy flat footed. She uses furry to get 2 attacks in with a total of +4 to hit on each (keep in mind the enemy is flat footed so doesn't get dex to AC, typically around AC 11). So on average she has to roll a 7 to hit.

For enemies we used level 1 barbarians. (using double HPs at first level rule)

2011-03-26, 04:18 PM
Okay. Thanks for the information. :)

We aren't sure whether the first lesser item comes online at level 1 or level 2. That doesn't seem to be a key factor in these calculations, though.

I should point out that a flat-footed 1st-level Barbarian has 12 AC with base-level armor (10 +1 BAB +1 armor). The formula for Armor Class is found in chapter 1.5, at the top of page 8 in the current document.

What other characters are in your party, and what has their damage output looked like over time?

Doc Roc
2011-03-26, 05:29 PM
Another critical question:

Was it fun?

2011-03-26, 07:47 PM
I didn't/don't see the rules for armor, as far as I saw flatfooted, AC was 10+Bab, the only items that gave AC were very high level. The party is small, only other member is a Ranger, multiclassed with swashbuckler. His damage is basically 1d8+5 (uses spear for reach) his chance to hit is fine, just doesn't get the flatfooted bonus.

Rogue player agrees the combo seems slightly strong. I think once per encounter would be way too big of a nerf, was thinking maybe scale the DC for the bluff check, so the first few in an encounter go through, but it wouldn't be a guaranteed success all day long. Also pitched the idea of only once per opponent per encounter, Rogue player doesn't like that idea at all, since she feels that as an assassin, sneak attack is her key feature, and she doesn't want to have to rely on others to get it off.

Though, we both agree that it's more the flurry that's the problem, as damage increases per attack such as sneak attack really add up with the extra attack.

Doc Roc: Yes, it was fun :smallbiggrin: , just trying to report player/DM ideas to help yall make the best game possible

Next session, we'll be lvl 2, and the ranger will be getting once more attacks. I'll report on weather that evens up the difference or not.

2011-03-26, 10:00 PM
Okay, so I read your posts and have given them some thought. It looks like we have a problem with stacking skill bonuses, and we will do our best to fix that for the next review cycle. In the meantime, though, I can point you to some tools in the Legend PDF that should fix most of the imbalance in your game.

First off, the Ranger is currently not effectively using his/her class features. Characters with the Swashbuckler track should be setting up their tactics to get an extra attack (from the Once More! feature) practically every round. If we increase the Ranger's combat output to match what the Ranger should be doing with existing class features, we're looking at two attacks at full attack bonus, doing 1d8+5, versus 2d6+5 at a lower attack bonus but against a lower AC. If we compare a Rogue and a Ranger with the same primary ability score, a flurrying Rogue is going to be at at least a -3 attack penalty (-2 for flurrying and -1 for lower BAB). So, unless their opponents have 18 Dexterity or higher, the Ranger's two attacks (standard and Once More!) are at least as good as the Rogue's flurry attacks versus flat-footed AC. Edit: I guess the Ranger decided to multiclass this in at level 2 instead? I wouldn't have done that. However, sorry for misunderstanding you.

Second, this higher damage output is generally consistent with what we expect from 1st-level characters. Assuming stat arrays with an 18 in the primary attribute, a raging barbarian does 2d6+6 or so per hit and a smiteadin does 2d6+4 or 5. And remember that both of these classes, as well as rangers and monks, are hitting at a higher attack bonus.

Third, the ability to take 10 probably isn't breaking this Rogue; against a level 1 character with average Wisdom, the Rogue would be hitting the DC on a 3 or 4 regardless. The problem is the +3 racial skill modifier, along with the early lesser item. We had been leaning towards pushing the first lesser item to 2nd level, and I think we'll be rescaling or reducing the racial skill bonuses in the near future.

Fourth, you can find a blip on armor in Chapter 6.8.4, right after the weapon descriptions. I promise that it will be a great deal expanded, with subheadings for Armor Properties and Armor Descriptions, in the next review cycle; the current paragraphs were part of a rush job that focused on getting a couple of other things ready.

Fifth, you'll note that your Rogue has apparently minmaxed her ability scores just a bit, to focus on attack rolls and bluffing. We certainly don't have a problem with that; however, it would probably help balance things just a bit if you varied your encounters to include rogues (let's see how a low-Constitution, high-Dexterity character deals with attacks when flatfooted!), spellcasters, and other NPCs that aren't barbarians.


Now, hopefully all of that goes a long way towards fixing the trouble in your party. You're correct that large stacking skill bonuses let a character auto-hit skill checks a bit too reliably, so we're going to fix that as soon as we can. However, making it hard for a character to use skills every round does cut deeply into tactical options that a player has probably put a lot of effort into accessing reliably; we implemented Rogues taking 10 on skill checks largely so they could do a couple things reliably and well.

I was considering altering skill checks made as part of move actions so that they would cost half of your move speed. This would preserve your Rogue player's core tactical options, but give her something of a tradeoff. What do you think?

Finally, your idea of imposing a stacking -1 penalty on subsequent Bluff or Acrobatics checks to make an opponent flat-footed is potentially valuable. We generally limit such situational modifiers to preserve speed of play; however, if your group can keep track of them easily and is okay with the change, feel free to houserule it in. If it works well for you, I would be more than happy to drop it in the PDF as an optional rule and give you credit for it.

2011-03-27, 07:29 AM
Maybe we misunderstood the multiclass rules, we were under the impression that when you multiclass, you gain the new tracks abilities at the same levels as the track you gave up (This preserves the "get a new ability every level" theme that the base three tracks are spaced to give). Since the ranger chose to give up Battle Tempering, that means he gets the swashbuckler features at levels 2, 5, 8, etc. Instead of 1,4,7 etc of the swashbuckler track. If this isn't correct I apologize.

We really like the idea of the move penalty when using the skill, makes it still very useful but at least presents something to make it more of a tactical choice rather than something you do every round simply because there's never a drawback to doing so. We'll try playing with that and see how it goes. Thanks.

Also, um what is the base movement of class/races? Looking back I only saw movement listed for halflings at 30 feet, is this supposed to be the movement of all races?

P.S. We're using the Legend document listed as Week of 3-20-11, thought I'd mention it just in case we're not using the most uptodate release.

ex cathedra
2011-03-27, 03:00 PM
30 feet is the base movement of medium races, 20 feet is the base movement of small races. It is specifically mentioned for halflings because their speed is increased as part of their racial bonuses.

2011-03-27, 03:11 PM
Maybe we misunderstood the multiclass rules, we were under the impression that when you multiclass, you gain the new tracks abilities at the same levels as the track you gave up (This preserves the "get a new ability every level" theme that the base three tracks are spaced to give). Since the ranger chose to give up Battle Tempering, that means he gets the swashbuckler features at levels 2, 5, 8, etc. Instead of 1,4,7 etc of the swashbuckler track. If this isn't correct I apologize.

You understand correctly. I misunderstood and thought that the Ranger has Swashbuckler at 1st level.

Personally, I think that Legend really improves when everyone has access to all three of their tracks (level 2). Level 1 carries with it the default assumption (brought in from D&D editions up through 3.x) that a 1st-level character is basically just out of high school/teenage years and not very strong overall; from our perspective, "graduated from military training," "a year of consistent MMA training," and "got a degree" all equate to being level 2. So hopefully things will be easier when both of your players ding level 2. :)

We really like the idea of the move penalty when using the skill, makes it still very useful but at least presents something to make it more of a tactical choice rather than something you do every round simply because there's never a drawback to doing so. We'll try playing with that and see how it goes. Thanks.

Awesome. Let me know how it works. :)

Also, um what is the base movement of class/races? Looking back I only saw movement listed for halflings at 30 feet, is this supposed to be the movement of all races?

Aethernox is correct. Sorry for not including that anywhere.

P.S. We're using the Legend document listed as Week of 3-20-11, thought I'd mention it just in case we're not using the most uptodate release.

You're current. I'm not 100% sure whether there will be a new PDF coming out tomorrow or next week; I would probably expect it next week, as IRL stuff has been making it very difficult for me to work on Legend the past few days.

2011-03-28, 12:57 AM
There's a few concerns I need to raise:

Names: Some of them are silly. For example, the Path of Destruction "Presence" line should totally be renamed. Your pecs aren't THAT manly. More specifically, Mettle is not OGL, and thus the ability cannot be copied wholesale. Changing the name can make it legal, and I would recommend that you do so swiftly.

Edit: Monks also have the Mettle problems. Paladins need to have their Judgment Strand edited not only to make it feel less eerily 3.x and more like your intention, but to try and deal with the issue of utilitarian paladins under absolutist DMs, or vice-versa.

2011-03-29, 07:15 PM
More Feedback:

-Playing with the 1/2 move when using bluff (and other social skills) in combat seems to be working great, still used a lot, but it's actually a trade-off at times now, so good.

-When the various actions are listed, "standard action" "move action" "swift action" etc, there should be a list of typical uses of those actions, my players got into an argument about whether picking up an item is a move, swift or free, and what action dismounting/mounting a horse should be. In the end, I used the 3rd ed. DnD. rulings, but might do well to explain these things for those unfamiliar with other systems.

-My players are both on the fence about everyone having access to Flurry, since if everyone has it, then all the monsters have it to, which makes rounds swingy at times, plus as one player put it "since there's no reason not to flurry (at lower levels at least, since not much else uses swift actions) it just adds extra dice rolls to the round". Not sure if i agree, but do see the argument that at levels 1-2 it is the go-to maneuver for monsters, since it's easy to use, and doesn't require planning/forethought on the part of the DM.

-Natural healing/Medicine Skill: Since no one in the party is a shaman or has the drinking feats, the Medicine skill is all the healing they have...and it's much to little. I'm thinking part of that is because we are using the optional rule of double HP at first level, so 1-2hp is a very small percentage of their max. I do like the fact that for every 5 you beat the base DC the time halves, making it so a high roll can give you a bit of healing between encounters and not just at the end of the day.
Since the party is so low on magical healing (and since I've always felt natural medicine should be a long term alternative to magical healing) I've house-ruled the DC to be 5 and the base healing rate to be 2hp/lvl, and the option to either half the time it takes, or double the amount healed (so the healer can get his 8 hours of sleep as well, instead of having to wake up every 2~4 hours to re-roll his medicine check)
This makes it so that a DC 10 check can heal 4hp/lvl over 8 hours, which is around 1/3 the average players hp, making a total recovery possible within 3 days.
Also, i didn't see any way for players to naturally recover HP without a medicine roll, is this intended?

I know house ruling kind of defeats some of the goals of beta testing a new system, but without some form of healing the down time was beginning to take away from the fun.

Doc Roc
2011-03-29, 10:58 PM
Yeah.... The lack of good out-of-combat non-magical healing has been really on my mind recently. I feel like it really goes against the No Bad Choices philosophy.

The fact that you had to roll a house rule just highlights it, I think.

2011-03-31, 03:48 PM
Yeah.... The lack of good out-of-combat non-magical healing has been really on my mind recently. I feel like it really goes against the No Bad Choices philosophy.

The fact that you had to roll a house rule just highlights it, I think.

Khyber's houserule seems like a good method for having a surgeon type about (though I've always been fascinated with a Assassin-type Rogue using their knowledge of anatomy to do battlefield healing). Alternatively, we could take a page from IK and bring in non-magic healing alchemy (though IK has it less do to a lack of clerics being about and more just how their healing works in-campaign). Either could work, though the first gives me some feat thoughts...

2011-04-03, 05:11 PM
Just finished AVLT!

Main issues:
1) A lot of effects don't exist. Like Ghostwise Sight.
2) Some spell descriptions like, Tongues, doesn't exist.
3) Lack of Stat blocks.

I will post up more indepth comments soon.

2011-04-03, 05:56 PM
Ghostwise Sight is written, but didn't make it into the PDF for some reason. It's my fault entirely, so I apologize.

Edit: Here's the text.

Ghostwise Sight:
Whenever a creature or object moves 5ft or more within the range of your Ghostwise Sight, they become visible to you as a trailing phantasm for the duration of that movement. If they would otherwise be invisible or move by teleportation, your perception is blurred, but not completely fooled. Treat the target as [Concealed] for purposes of aiming and other interactions. Interestingly, this means that even if they would be hidden by a wall, you can see them as though they had no cover. Unfortunately, the wall will still stop an arrow. A Stealth roll as an opposed test against your Perception may be used to reduce this to a general directional awareness.

2011-04-03, 07:33 PM
you aren't consistent with how you say how much base attack a class has. for example, the paladin has BAB: Good (1 per level) and the monk has Base Attack Bonus: 1/1.

you also don't have skeleton champion listed under the undead racial traits bonus feats part on page 123.

is ally using the same definition as 3.5? if so, can a paladin with the heroica strand pick himself as an ally?

can you explain the difference between the feats the sky empties and shadow blink? it looks like shadow blink is much better than the sky empties.

2011-04-03, 08:58 PM
The missing skelechamp listing is a known bug and is fixed in the new document that we're preparing for review.

"Ally" does include you; however, we're including wording in the new document that explicitly prohibits self-picks for Heroica.

Shadow Blink needs to be rewritten to incorporate some things that we had assumed but hadn't put in the document. The short version is that The Sky Empties ignores LoE as well as LoS and doesn't provoke AoOs, while Shadow Blink is basically just a free pass to avoid AoOs along your path of travel and lets you blink through concealment (but not places where you don't have LoE).

2011-04-04, 02:23 AM
Just a conceptual thing I started wondering about yesterday:

Looking around, I see many, many ways to switch out tracks, including some classes that choose their tracks from a list, or from another class. Have you ever thought about ditching the concept of classes entirely and just letting the player choose their tracks from a list?

Doc Roc
2011-04-04, 02:18 PM
We have, and will likely be providing an optional way of doing just that in Expansion 1. Starting with classes is good for the majority of our audience, and also for new players.

2011-04-05, 01:02 AM
As requested by DocRoc, here are the sheets that were finally submitted to me in my run of AVLT. Each player formatted then differently, and so it might be a pain to read them. These are also the unedited quick notes sheets we came up with, so spelling errors exist.

All at level 6

Halfling Ranger
Name: Barret
Race: Halfling
Class: Ranger
Ability Scores:

S: 12
D: 20 (16+4)
C: 8
I: 12
W: 14
Ch: 16 (14+2) +2 : 18

HP: 90 (48+[6*5])
AC: 21 (10+6+5)
Fort: +6
Ref: +6
Will: +3

BAB: +6

Acrobatics: 6
Larceny: 6
Stealth: 6
Nature: 6
Bluff: 6
Perception: 6
Engineering: 6

--Hunter's Mastery
Favored Enemy (Constructs)
Crippling Strike
--Battle's Tempering
Send Bullets, Bolts, And Arrows
A Crashing of The Heavens
--Einherjar's Discipline
Faster is Better
Harder Is Stronger

On a Pale Horse (Iconic)
Melee Fitness
Broken Field Scout

This is your favorite gun.
Repeating Rifle (Main ranged weapon, fires 10 shots before needing to be reloaded. 2d6+Dexterity base damage.). Has a Gnomish Scope, making it long range, and the Magnum property, allowing its bullets to penetrate through wooden walls and similar obstructions.

Grim Stone: +2 charisma
Small totem: 30ft. Darkvision

Halfling Rogue
Name: Herosio Dashlin
Race: Halfling
Class: Rogue 6

HP:60 (57) 5
BAB: +5

Fort, +5
Ref, +11
Will, +5

Cha:16 (18)

Skill List:
Acrobatics, +11
Athletics, +7
Larceny, +11
Stealth, +11
Bluff, +10
Diplomacy, +10
Intimidate, +10

Feat list:
Last Son of a Dieing World(DR3)
The bigger they are
Master of Swordplay(the terrible swift lash)
Melee Finesse

--Esoterica Radica
Playing it Right(Diplomacy, Acrobatics)
When to Hold
When to Fold

Once More!
With Feeling

--Fortunes Friend
A Little to the Left

ColdFire ingot(cold)
Grim stone
Wings of faith
GreatSword(2d6+5, +4 cold damage, +3 is medium or bigger)

Gnome Shaman (Contains spell commentary!)
Name: Bah he needs no stinkin name
Race: Gnome
Class: Shaman

Ability Scores:
S:6 (8) -2
D:10 (10)
C:14 (12) +2
I:16 (14) +2
W:18 (16) +2
Ch:18 (14) +2 +2

HP: 60 (48+12)
AC: 16 (14+2 from a shield I carry)
Fort: +8
Ref: +5
Will: +10

BAB: +4

Bluff +10
Diplomacy +13
Intimidate +10
perception +10
Arcana +9
Medicine +9
((Note: PDF said something about class skills, but none seem to exist. I think this reference was removed by the second PDF))

Incantation: +4 Touch Attack, 7d4+4 Healing or Damage

Shaman Spells (DC 17)
Spells per Day: 6/5/3
1st Known:
World Mind

2nd Known:
Cure Moderate Wounds(typo in spell Description)
Natures power

Not Remove Paralysis(Hold person doesn't exist aka typo alert)

3rd Known:
Call lightning

Tactician(DC 16)
Spells per Day: 5/4
1st level:
Resist Energy
Silent Image(2nd level spells suck, lets see if I can use it properly.....)
NOT Grease(ACK no range)
NOT Dimension Swap( But notice typo between description and spell list to due with range)

2nd level:
Fog Cloud
Glitter Dust(This makes me sad, rather then one move action to negate the main effect a deteriorating effect such as blinded round 1, 50% concealment round 2, and 20% concealment round 3 would make this an effective use of my time )

NOT Status since i well have it, but theres a typo either in the spell list or the spell description
NOT Minor Image since its description has been removed yet it remains in the spell list
NOT Tongues since it doesn't have a spell description

Chatty bugger
A light against Shadow
The Sun grows Dim
By Will Sustained

Grim Stone
Ancient Reliquary
Wings of Faith

Something that came into play in my mind is that in some conditions, such as both sides having Shamans, you enter into a race condition where whoever tunes out of healing first generally loses.

2011-04-06, 11:32 PM
...Oh dear, another thread on this system I missed. >.<

Doc Roc
2011-04-07, 09:58 AM
Don't worry too much, I always roll the beta link forward in the AVLT thread.