Half Dragons?

[NineThePuma]

I'm looking at their LA of +3, and wondering if it's really necessary. It really doesn't seem that shiny to me.

Any thoughts, GitP?

[Garagos]

I think the LA is mainly there for half dragons at lower levels. The stat bonuses, natural armor, energy immunity, immunity to spells like hold/charm person, and breath weapon are all pretty huge for characters below 6th or 7th level. The breath weapon alone could easily kill characters up to 3rd or 4th level on a failed save depending on class.

At higher levels the only thing that really continues to be helpful is the energy immunity and the stat bonuses. Using the LA buy off is always a good idea to do as early as you can.

[FMArthur]

My thoughts are to replace them entirely with Dragonborn, remove all the Bahamut stuff from its fluff and make Dragonborn either inherited or acquired depending on the backstory.

[Halae]

an easy enough fix is to just take away the breath weapon - it accounts for an entire 1 of the LA on its own, according to the savage species breakdown. Get rid of the breath and you have a really solid +2 LA template

[KillianHawkeye]

My thoughts are to replace them entirely with Dragonborn, remove all the Bahamut stuff from its fluff and make Dragonborn either inherited or acquired depending on the backstory.

That was 4th Edition's take on it as well.... :smallamused:

[Alleran]

I always had the impression that they'd be more suited to a LA +2 than a +3. A high +2, sure, but a +2.

[Halae]

I always had the impression that they'd be more suited to a LA +2 than a +3. A high +2, sure, but a +2.

That's what they changed it to in pathfinder

[Yora]

Almost all LAs in 3.5 can be reduced by at least 1. Most are way to high for the benefits they provide.

[Goonthegoof]

And then there was half-minotaur.

[NineThePuma]

Ferals.

Mineral Warriors.

[TroubleBrewing]

Don't forget Divine Minion. Want to Wild Shape as an 11th level druid for +1 level? Divine Minion has what you need. Need to be immune to fear? Divine Minion has that, too.

Half-Dragon is a +2 LA template, to be honest. Throwing it on something that's Large-sized might justify +3, though. A fly speed is always useful. Except underwater.

[NineThePuma]

Now for a related tangent!

Is Dragon Disciple worth 10 HD?

[TroubleBrewing]

God no. Not ever. Under any circumstances.

[Halae]

God no. Not ever. Under any circumstances.

what about for a fighty character who takes 1 level of a spontaneous casting class to qualify for it?

[TroubleBrewing]

what about for a fighty character who takes 1 level of a spontaneous casting class to qualify for it?

So (Assuming Core-only, here. It's the only reason you'd ever use Dragon Disciple.) you're a Fighter with 1 level of Sorc and 10 levels of a 3/4 BAB class with no spellcasting progression, and at the end of it all, you get the Half-Dragon template. Forgive my lack of enthusiasm here, but what on earth seems worth the effort about this?

Not to mention you need 8 ranks of Knowledge: Arcana to qualify. Even with the 1 level of Sorc, you've either got 8 levels of fighter (4 ranks at 1st level sorc, 1/2 rank every level after that), or you're a Sorc 1/Fighter 4 you've wasted two of your full-rank skills to get full progression in it (given that once a skill is a class skill for you, if you progress in a class that lacks that skill, you aren't limited by the normal 1/2 level+3 formula for max ranks). Seems really, really sub-par.

[Marnath]

I saw pathfinder mentioned, and +1 to just using that. Here it is. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/half-dragon) Effectively no breath weapon, fly speed even at medium size and an extra +4 CON over normal half-dragon. At LA 2. If your DM objects, show him a half-minotaur mineral warrior beatstick build. :smallwink:

[TroubleBrewing]

Add that to the list of things Pathfinder fixed, then! :smallsmile:

[Halae]

Add that to the list of things Pathfinder fixed, then! :smallsmile:hells yes! I just showed it to my DM and he's letting me retcon it in

[TroubleBrewing]

Gotta love DM's who are cool about retconning stuff that badly needs fixing. (Paladin, I'm looking at you.)

[Leon]

what about for a fighty character who takes 1 level of a spontaneous casting class to qualify for it?

If it suits what you have for PC idea then yes

[Cog]

If it suits what you have for PC idea then yes
If 'decent strength and a few lagging spells but poor at actual combat' is your PC idea, sure.

If your idea is actually a capable combatant, though, I bet we can find you a better class to represent it.

[Curious]

Gotta love DM's who are cool about retconning stuff that badly needs fixing. (Paladin, I'm looking at you.)

Yes. Really, if you want to play a Paladin, you should just ask your DM to let you use the Pathfinder version. Damn does it kick ass. :smallamused:

[TroubleBrewing]

Ditto for sorcerers, IMO. Sorcs got the shaft in 3.5. Pathfinder does them right.

[Cog]

Yeah. It's horribly unfair that they can easily squash only two-thirds of the other Core base classes.

[Leon]

If 'decent strength and a few lagging spells but poor at actual combat' is your PC idea, sure.


If its poor at combat due to 3/4 BAB then that is just a silly excuse - a Full BAB does help but the majority of being good in combat is luck augmented by stats, spell buffs & base attack.

A few lagging spells... if all you want is the ability cast a couple of low level buff or utility spells then its not lagging - if you were after a lot more in the way of spell casting you would be most likely in a Spell casting PrC.

[Provengreil]

If it suits what you have for PC idea then yes

I've done this, with DM retconning the spell slots to casting levels. sorceror with draconic bloodline feats from complete arcane + retconned dragon disciple class has actually served me quite well. using my breath weapon to be my main offense, i'm able to use my spells known on less blasty but still good spells. my AC is actually decent (27 on a sorc isn't bad), my HP is high enough to let me into melee combat, and combos like true strike + draconic flight to jump high into the air, then next round use blood wind to full attack as i come down, doing a disarm as my first attack at range (with the +20 attack bonus), and finally jumping into his face as an ice breathing avatar of rage has proven effective, especially when it doubles as a flank for the rogue.

a little creativity can go a long way, especially if the rest of your party isn't a bunch of uber optimizers so you can afford to sacrifice some power for flavor(my group tends to prefer this, in fact).

*edit: that particular strategem is doable without the retconning, both of those are first level spells. while the casting levels add a lot of firepower to my character, i've found that in practice i mostly use them to charge up my breath weapon via another bloodline feat.

[Cog]

If its poor at combat due to 3/4 BAB then that is just a silly excuse - a Full BAB does help but the majority of being good in combat is luck augmented by stats, spell buffs & base attack.
At higher levels, you need something more than just 2d6 plus Str damage to remain useful at melee. A few extra points of Strength doesn't do enough to up that, especially since the low BAB keeps you behind on iterative attacks anyway. You need some other source of damage; Arcane Strike, Arcane Channeling, sneak attack, initiator maneuvers... or the classic melee approach, Power Attack. Y'know, the one that's fueled by the BAB that you're now falling behind on, after likely already taking a hit just to qualify for the class.

Granted, that's not a problem at first. D. Disciple isn't bad as a dip; finishing off a Suel Arcanamach is something I've seen suggested. It's taking the whole thing that's problematic.

A few lagging spells... if all you want is the ability cast a couple of low level buff or utility spells then its not lagging - if you were after a lot more in the way of spell casting you would be most likely in a Spell casting PrC.
First level spells become increasingly less useful as you gain higher levels. There's also the question of ASF - if you're taking non-somatic spells, you're limited in the first place, and if you're not, the benefits you gain from those spells are probably outstripped by the advantages level-appropriate armor can provide, even if it's little more than to take the edge off an enemy's own powerattacking.

Taking levels in a class that progresses your martial abilities and gives you actual spellcasting just opens up a whole lot more options. Even a class as poorly liked as Eldritch Knight will likely give you more extra spell slots - and if you really like, you can put those first level spells you like in higher slots - while giving you a higher caster level so those buffs will actually have any sort of duration to them.

I've done this, with DM retconning the spell slots to casting levels... using my breath weapon to be my main offense, i'm able to use my spells known on less blasty but still good spells.
At the early levels, DD's breath weapon does comparable damage to weapon+Str (or less), with a save based on PrC level. And it's once per day. So that's two changes you've made to the class, and we're no longer talking about the same thing anymore.

...combos like true strike + draconic flight to jump high into the air, then next round use blood wind to full attack as i come down, doing a disarm as my first attack at range...
You're only attacking every other round, and you aren't even trying to cause damage when you do hit? You could have just done two good full attacks in the same time.

a little creativity can go a long way, especially if the rest of your party isn't a bunch of uber optimizers so you can afford to sacrifice some power for flavor(my group tends to prefer this, in fact).
Oh, hi there, Mr. Stormwind. I didn't see you come in! Seriously, it's hard to understand how you could both say that and talk about all the ways you upped the power of the class. Did those fixes suddenly make it less flavorful because it now has more power? No? Perhaps it's possible to both have flavor and be competent at a certain role? Maybe?

[Grim Reader]

Now for a related tangent!

Is Dragon Disciple worth 10 HD?

Dragon Disciple is an excellent PrC. For Epic. It is unfortunate that it can be qualified for pre-epic, becuse it doesn't do much good there.

[Noneoyabizzness]

Dragon Disciple is an excellent PrC. For Epic. It is unfortunate that it can be qualified for pre-epic, becuse it doesn't do much good there.


one point that was valid was using it for builds like suel arcanamach to get more 5th level spells and ability boosts

[Provengreil]

At the early levels, DD's breath weapon does comparable damage to weapon+Str (or less), with a save based on PrC level. And it's once per day. So that's two changes you've made to the class, and we're no longer talking about the same thing anymore.

You're only attacking every other round, and you aren't even trying to cause damage when you do hit? You could have just done two good full attacks in the same time.

Oh, hi there, Mr. Stormwind. I didn't see you come in! Seriously, it's hard to understand how you could both say that and talk about all the ways you upped the power of the class. Did those fixes suddenly make it less flavorful because it now has more power? No? Perhaps it's possible to both have flavor and be competent at a certain role? Maybe?

for the breath weapon, another of the bloodline feats allows to to sacrifice a spell slot to breath 2d6 per spell level as a standard action. so no, i didn't change that part of the class. It's like having a cone of cold in every spell level that has no somatic or verbal components.

as for the knocking the weapon out of his hand, yes i could have just full rounded him twice, but what if, say, i wasn't next to him on the first round and he is holding a +1 anarchic unholy greataxe(i'm LG, and this has happened.) i don't want to be near him unless i can make him take attacks of opportunity for most of the actions he'll take, hence the disarm, not to mention i do not want to get it by that thing.

in any case, just because this character has a full round attack doesn't mean that's his only trick. draconic claw allows you to make a free claw attack every time you cast a spell that takes a standard action, so I can cast spells, flank, and still attack every round. blindsense, balance as a class skill from draconic bloodline(white), and draconic legacy(which adds a few spells known to my list for free) allow me to trap an enemy in a sleet storm, penalizing them greatly but me not nearly as much. walls of ice let me funnel enemies and control battle flow, and so on. I'm not supposed to be a close combat badass, I'm supposed to be competent at best, augmenting it with good spellpower. why is that so hard to accept, that i took a concept and optmized it in my own way by slightly changing a franky poorly written class?
(EDIT: you might note that pathfinder made the exact same changes with some extra to fit into the new sorceror class.)

and i apologize, but that last bit about mr. stormwind went right over my head, i don't get the reference. but the reason people are dissing this this class is that, as written, it really isn't competent in any role, it's much more worth it to take the template. so i spoke up about how i made one change and it became competent.

[Leon]

Aside from Cogs rampant delusions that its not ok, you seem to be fixated on damage output alone and that somehow a 3/4 BAB cant compete which is wrong.

Its a quite good PrC. Its been (like most in the DMG) overshadowed by later releases but most in that book are still very good options for characters in someway.

I wrote up a quick PC based off the PrC with some levels of barbarian and battle sorcerer - A Half Orc with a 18 base in STR and 5 levels in the PrC is at a very respectable STR 24.

The small selection spells is used to cover things such as boosting AC/Saves, increasing damage and a small slice of utility.

Its now on the "may play if something happens to my current PC" list

[Cog]

I wrote most of my response to Provengreil before I caught the bit at the end where it turned out we agree. I'm including this stuff anyway in case it helps anybody else.

for the breath weapon, another of the bloodline feats allows to to sacrifice a spell slot to breath 2d6 per spell level as a standard action.
Ah. So it's not even a benefit you're getting from the class, and is basically irrelevant to whether the class is good.

as for the knocking the weapon out of his hand, yes i could have just full rounded him twice, but what if, say, i wasn't next to him on the first round...
As a caster and a melee character, you have plenty of ways of picking up either pounce or free/swift movement. There are other threads on the topic, if you're curious.

...and he is holding a +1 anarchic unholy greataxe(i'm LG, and this has happened.)
Okay, sure, there are exceedingly particular situations where disarming becomes more useful. You're getting further from an average situation now, though.

draconic claw allows you to make a free claw attack every time you cast a spell that takes a standard action, so I can cast spells, flank, and still attack every round.
A single claw attack per round isn't going to put much of a dent in most enemies' HP. If you make a build around it you could perhaps get some use out of it, I guess.

I'm not supposed to be a close combat badass, I'm supposed to be competent at best, augmenting it with good spellpower.
Sure. But that's almost the opposite of what the actual Disciple is.

why is that so hard to accept, that i took a concept and optmized it in my own way by slightly changing a franky poorly written class?
...That's been exactly my point, that it's a poorly written class. You seemed to be suggesting that it was the opposite, and I was pointing out that whatever you were accomplishing had very little to do with Disciple.

and i apologize, but that last bit about mr. stormwind went right over my head, i don't get the reference.
Ignore the first two sentences and the rest stands on its own. You talked about how it's good to sacrifice power for flavor, and in the same post talked about how you houseruled up the power of the class you were taking. By your logic, that boost should have taken some of the flavor out of the class.



Aside from Cogs rampant delusions that its not ok, you seem to be fixated on damage output alone and that somehow a 3/4 BAB cant compete which is wrong.
I'm certainly not the first to suggest any of this. I've learned here from those more experienced. Also, I certainly never said that a 3/4 BAB class can't compete. Any class needs some sort of gimmick/focus to keep up with increasing HP. Arcanists do it by ignoring HP entirely. Rogues and the like get precision damage. Druids get Wild Shape. Melee classes, outside of ToB, basically have Power Attack. What does Disciple bring to the table?

I wrote up a quick PC based off the PrC with some levels of barbarian and battle sorcerer - A Half Orc with a 18 base in STR and 5 levels in the PrC is at a very respectable STR 24.
I'm not even among the best character builders here, but I'd be willing to give it a go. A build with plenty of draconic flavor, mostly melee, some spellcasting?

The small selection spells is used to cover things such as boosting AC/Saves, increasing damage and a small slice of utility.
You can do that while still taking a PrC that actually boosts your casting ability. You might even luck out and have that magic actually be relevant at higher levels.

[Zok72]

An answer I have used in my gaming sessions for players who want to play LA races at higher levels is to slowly remove the LA as they level up, free of charge.
For example, a net +2 to stats is strong, but at level 5 begins to be eclipsed by class abilities and at level 10 is nearly meaningless. Minor spell like abilities have a similar curve. About the only things I can think of taht still warrent any ajustment at high level (15+) are very strong spell like abilities (e.g. disintegrate) and abilities that scale with level (like SR for some creatures).

This lets players play LA races without being too powerful (at low levels when their abilities matter) or too weak (at high level when their abilities don't) without any penalty. Of course the balancing is difficult for some races (drow for example are irritating because of their SR) but in general I get rid of one LA for every 5 ECL the character has (so LA +1 races advance as normal from ECL 5 on, LA +2 races have +2 for ECL 1-4 +1 for ECL 5-9 and advance as normal for ECL 10+). Again, BE CAREFUL WHEN BALANCING.

[Halae]

An answer I have used in my gaming sessions for players who want to play LA races at higher levels is to slowly remove the LA as they level up, free of charge.
For example, a net +2 to stats is strong, but at level 5 begins to be eclipsed by class abilities and at level 10 is nearly meaningless. Minor spell like abilities have a similar curve. About the only things I can think of taht still warrent any ajustment at high level (15+) are very strong spell like abilities (e.g. disintegrate) and abilities that scale with level (like SR for some creatures).

This lets players play LA races without being too powerful (at low levels when their abilities matter) or too weak (at high level when their abilities don't) without any penalty. Of course the balancing is difficult for some races (drow for example are irritating because of their SR) but in general I get rid of one LA for every 5 ECL the character has (so LA +1 races advance as normal from ECL 5 on, LA +2 races have +2 for ECL 1-4 +1 for ECL 5-9 and advance as normal for ECL 10+). Again, BE CAREFUL WHEN BALANCING.Pathfinder does this. it actually tells you in the back of the bestiary that if a player wants to play a monstrous character, be careful about considering whether it should be played or not, but if it is, then reduce the LA by 1 for every 3 levels the character gains, meaning a Half-dragon who hits level three would then have his new and improved LA 2 reduced to 1, and it would be completely gone at level 6. Hells yes.

[Leon]

I'm certainly not the first to suggest any of this. I've learned here from those more experienced. Also, I certainly never said that a 3/4 BAB class can't compete. Any class needs some sort of gimmick/focus to keep up with increasing HP. Arcanists do it by ignoring HP entirely. Rogues and the like get precision damage. Druids get Wild Shape. Melee classes, outside of ToB, basically have Power Attack. What does Disciple bring to the table?


What does it bring? why does it have to bring anything - once more you are focusing on maximizing the combat efficiency of everything. Most groups would be happy if you work as part of the team and do stuff not worry about your Damage per round



You can do that while still taking a PrC that actually boosts your casting ability. You might even luck out and have that magic actually be relevant at higher levels.

If all you want is some utility and small buffs you don't need boosts - it will be relevant at what ever level if it does what you are happy with.

[Cog]

What does it bring? why does it have to bring anything - once more you are focusing on maximizing the combat efficiency of everything. Most groups would be happy if you work as part of the team and do stuff not worry about your Damage per round
It's almost like D&D is some sort of wargame or something. Strange thought, I know. Sure, the game can handle other things, but flip through the books, look at how much of each is devoted to combat mechanics.

As for why it should bring something, well, presumably there's some reason you're not just playing a Commoner. It's not much use working as part of a team if you can't contribute to that team.

Now, if the rest of your team is equally unoptimized, that's another matter entirely. If that's the case, then sure, there's less reason to worry about how much your own character can contribute. But then the DM is limited in what sort of encounters they can throw at you. I've found this myself; the group I DM for is very unoptimized, and if I threw monsters at them at the CRs they 'should' be facing, it'd be a bloodbath.

If all you want is some utility and small buffs you don't need boosts - it will be relevant at what ever level if it does what you are happy with.
I figure 'contributing meaningfully to the encounter' is a good measure for that. If it's something other than that which makes you happy, then by all means, go for it.

[NineThePuma]

And this has been slightly derailed. <__<

Okay, if I were to 'rebuild' the Dragon Disciple as a 5 level class, what sort of prerequisites would you suggest for it? Not keeping the 'core only' requirement, naturally.

(I'd like to move away from the 'Must be a caster!' too)

[Cog]

And this has been slightly derailed. <__<

Okay, if I were to 'rebuild' the Dragon Disciple as a 5 level class, what sort of prerequisites would you suggest for it? Not keeping the 'core only' requirement, naturally.
Sorry about that. The original question seemed to have been taken care of.

Dragon Devotee in Dragon Magic Races of the Dragon seems to be exactly what you're looking for, though.

[Leon]

It's almost like D&D is some sort of wargame or something. Strange thought, I know. Sure, the game can handle other things, but flip through the books, look at how much of each is devoted to combat mechanics.

Latest Incarnation is very much like one.

Because the game rules for combat can be complex - a greater part of the book is simply a list and short description of something that can be even more complex.

Yet a good game of D&D neither has to have a focus on Combat or Spells, even if they do a great deal can be done with not much specialization to a PC. The PrC works very well as it is - What it brings is a decently hard hitter to a group with a touch of magic that is draconic in taste



I've found this myself; the group I DM for is very unoptimized, and if I threw monsters at them at the CRs they 'should' be facing, it'd be a bloodbath.


Or it may be a difficult but rewarding fight - depends how well your group works together and what they are fighting.

Having been in a group that took out a CR15 Lich at a group level of 5 anything is possible.


And this has been slightly derailed. <__<

Okay, if I were to 'rebuild' the Dragon Disciple as a 5 level class, what sort of prerequisites would you suggest for it? Not keeping the 'core only' requirement, naturally.

(I'd like to move away from the 'Must be a caster!' too)

I'd keep it mostly the same save add BAB 3+ in place of the Spells

[NineThePuma]

Dragon Devotee in Dragon Magic seems to be exactly what you're looking for, though.

Feat doesn't exist.


Should I substitute it for "Dragonblood Subtype" ...?

[The Shadowmind]

Feat doesn't exist.


Should I substitute it for "Dragonblood Subtype" ...?

Prestige class, Race of the Dragon, instead of Dragon Magic.

[NineThePuma]

... Yes, as a Prerequisite for a Prestige Class, I wanna have... a prestige class.

[Leon]

Maybe reduce the Knowledge ranks to 5

[Cog]

... Yes, as a Prerequisite for a Prestige Class, I wanna have... a prestige class.
I meant that Dragon Devotee is basically what you're trying to accomplish - Dragon Disciple in five-level form.