Focused Specialist Gish, which schools to ban?

[Dusk Eclipse]

As the title says, which are the school a focused specialist gish, should ban?

I am sure enchantment and evocation are the first ones to go; but I don't know about the third one? It will probably be necromancy but I want to hear other peoples opinions.

[Cieyrin]

Necromancy is probably the safest to lose, as it gives you the least buffs compared to Abjuration and Transmutation. Conjuration is just versatile next to Trans, Illusion gets you back Contingency via Greater Shadow Evocation, among other straight buffs and Divination tends to suck to not have when you really need it.

[TroubleBrewing]

Enchantment, Necromancy, and Evocation are pretty much the only choices for gishes to dump. Everything else either replicates one of the schools you lose (Illusion, I'm looking at you), is way, way too useful to not have (Divination, Conjuration anyone?), or would be catastrophic to lose (Abjuration. For obvious reasons.).

[Dusk Eclipse]

What exactly does a gish loose by banning conjuration really? the only thing they loose is teleport spells. Since as a gish you don't need BFC or summons (you are your own meatshield) nor effective blasting (a properly built gish deals HUGE amounts of damage), so I don't see what it looses by banning it.

Note that this only applies to a primary melee character who uses magic to augment itself, not a wizard who happens to know how to fight (better than the people who have trained their whole lives for it).

[Eldariel]

What exactly does a gish loose by banning conjuration really? the only thing they loose is teleport spells. Since as a gish you don't need BFC or summons (you are your own meatshield) nor effective blasting (a properly built gish deals HUGE amounts of damage), so I don't see what it looses by banning it.

Note that this only applies to a primary melee character who uses magic to augment itself, not a wizard who happens to know how to fight (better than the people who have trained their whole lives for it).

Teleports are pretty huge; if you're melee, being able to TP as a swift action gives you unparalleled mobility. To the tune of being able to "spring attack" targets 5 miles away. With full attacks. One of the prime reason non-caster melee is comparatively so "meh" is 'cause stupid things like distances, obstacles and such crap matter to them.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Teleports are pretty huge; if you're melee, being able to TP as a swift action gives you unparalleled mobility. To the tune of being able to "spring attack" targets 5 miles away. With full attacks. One of the prime reason non-caster melee is comparatively so "meh" is 'cause stupid things like distances, obstacles and such crap matter to them.

The standard answer would be to point out how many items that can grant swift action teleports are there (coughankletsoftranslocationcough) but yeah a wizard should be able to teleport him/herself without using magic items.

[TroubleBrewing]

One of the prime reason non-caster melee is comparatively so "meh" is 'cause stupid things like distances, obstacles and such crap matter to them.

This made me laugh quite a lot.

Can I sig this? I'm building a DMM cleric while I type this to prove a point to a friend who laughed when I suggested his Fighter/Ranger/Barbarian couldn't compete with a Cleric in melee.

[Eldariel]

The standard answer would be to point out how many items that can grant swift action teleports are there (coughankletsoftranslocationcough) but yeah a wizard should be able to teleport him/herself without using magic items.

There is, however, a somewhat relevant difference in scale between 10' and, y'know, 100 miles per caster level.


This made me laugh quite a lot.

Can I sig this? I'm building a DMM cleric while I type this to prove a point to a friend who laughed when I suggested his Fighter/Ranger/Barbarian couldn't compete with a Cleric in melee.

Be my guest. Happy trouncing.

[Dusk Eclipse]

There is, however, a somewhat relevant difference in scale between 10' and, y'know, 100 miles per caster level.


You were talking about the actual Teleport spell? I was thinking more on the other spells, more along the lines of DDoor, bening transposition, etc.

And the thing is that apart from scry'n die tactics, I don't see an encounter that would need to use teleports with that ranges (though the mental image of a fight between a pair of gishes who teleport all around the world, chasing each other is quite neat)

[TroubleBrewing]

(though the mental image of a fight between a pair of gishes who teleport all around the world, chasing each other is quite neat)

Hence, keep Conjuration. Rule of Cool trumps all else.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Oh this is not for a character, just a though exercise, and TBH I would never consider to ban Conjuration, my question was just that, a question.

[Eldariel]

You were talking about the actual Teleport spell? I was thinking more on the other spells, more along the lines of DDoor, bening transposition, etc.

I was talking about the whole line. After all, as long as you have Conjuration, you can learn every single one of them. Starting from the ~150' jaunts with level 5 spells (Quickened 1st) to ~2000 miles by the end of your career with Quickened Greater Teleports.


And the thing is that apart from scry'n die tactics, I don't see an encounter that would need to use teleports with that ranges (though the mental image of a fight between a pair of gishes who teleport all around the world, chasing each other is quite neat)

Well, fighting casters with teleport in general constitutes a case where that can be useful. Also, some really nasty creatures like the Hecatoncheires can launch mundane counterattacks from quite impressive a distance; you don't wanna be within its line of sight when it gets to act. And like, just 'cause you can teleport 2000 miles doesn't mean you have to; sometimes 500' or 1 mile is what the situation calls for.

The key is having the potential to do good stuff. And frankly, you definitely want at least 100' teleports for simple in-combat mobility; hell, Dragons can move 500' with a doublemove or run for like 1000' a turn. And Quicken breath/spell after that. If you wanna keep up with one kiting you, you'll probably want to be able to move at least 500' a turn and that's hard without teleportation.

[TroubleBrewing]

Gotcha. That's actually given me a really awesome idea for a bit for a humor-based game I'm GMing. I'll have these two guys keep just teleporting near the party at inopportune moments while kicking the crap out of each other.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I was talking about the whole line. After all, as long as you have Conjuration, you can learn every single one of them. Starting from the ~150' jaunts with level 5 spells (Quickened 1st) to ~2000 miles by the end of your career with Quickened Greater Teleports.



Well, fighting casters with teleport in general constitutes a case where that can be useful. Also, some really nasty creatures like the Hecatoncheires can launch mundane counterattacks from quite impressive a distance; you don't wanna be within its line of sight when it gets to act. And like, just 'cause you can teleport 2000 miles doesn't mean you have to; sometimes 500' or 1 mile is what the situation calls for.

The key is having the potential to do good stuff. And frankly, you definitely want at least 100' teleports for simple in-combat mobility; hell, Dragons can move 500' with a doublemove or run for like 1000' a turn. And Quicken breath/spell after that. If you wanna keep up with one kiting you, you'll probably want to be able to move at least 500' a turn and that's hard without teleportation.

All fair points; but IME (which is apparently quite different from most of other posters here) there hasn't been an occasion when I needed a huge teleport mid combat. Hell the only time I have fight against a dragon in my gaming career was in a 4e game.

[Psyren]

Divination tends to suck to not have when you really need it.

Not that it matters, as you can't get rid of Divination anyway. :smalltongue:

[Dusk Eclipse]

Not that it matters, as you can't get rid of Divination anyway. :smalltongue:

That is something that has bugged me for a loooong time, Why can't you ban divination? is it a legacy decision? Have anyone (either WotC or TSR) actually adresed why you can't ban divination.

[Psyren]

That is something that has bugged me for a loooong time, Why can't you ban divination? is it a legacy decision? Have anyone (either WotC or TSR) actually adresed why you can't ban divination.

Well, without it you lose Read Magic, which will royally suck if you find yourself with only a stranger's spellbook instead of your own. In all honesty though I have no idea.

[Cieyrin]

All fair points; but IME (which is apparently quite different from most of other posters here) there hasn't been an occasion when I needed a huge teleport mid combat. Hell the only time I have fight against a dragon in my gaming career was in a 4e game.

One reason you'd want a teleport over a dim door is no turn ending clause, which can limit your options if you want to close. Dimension Jumper. Dimension Hop, Lightning Leap, etc. can also be nice alternatives.

[TroubleBrewing]

Because most people without a lot of experience would ban it without a second thought. Personally, I've never used Scry-and-die tactics in-game (mainly because it would give our DM a free pass to do the same to us), so it'd be my go-to school to ban.

[Caliphbubba]

That is something that has bugged me for a loooong time, Why can't you ban divination? is it a legacy decision? Have anyone (either WotC or TSR) actually adresed why you can't ban divination.

yeah it's a legacy thing. used to be there was a "universal" school of magic that had Detect/Read Magic type spells in it. And they figured that there weren't really enough actual divination spells to warrant it being a bannable school.

[Psyren]

Not to mention that actually relying on Divination tends to either spark a DM arms race or force rule zero.

"Yes, the Dark Lord's grim halls are lined with lead plating. No, you cannot look into the future and see the interior after the walls have crumbled.
...
Your incessant questions have angered Zeus. Take 18 int damage. For the next 24 hours, you are a drooling carrot that must be towed around by your party."


They knew that many players would ban it if they could, thus it is not an option. In fact, they realize it is so bad, they have to incentivize you to specialize in it by letting you keep an extra school if you do.

Pathfinder makes Diviners (and Seers!) considerably more sexy though.

[Caliphbubba]

Not to mention that actually relying on Divination tends to either spark a DM arms race or force rule zero.

"Yes, the Dark Lord's grim halls are lined with lead plating. No, you cannot look into the future and see the interior after the walls have crumbled.
...
Your incessant questions have angered Zeus. Take 18 int damage. For the next 24 hours, you are a drooling carrot that must be towed around by your party."


They knew that many players would ban it if they could, thus it is not an option. In fact, they realize it is so bad, they have to incentivize you to specialize in it by letting you keep an extra school if you do.

Pathfinder makes Diviners (and Seers!) considerably more sexy though.

also very true. and very funny.

[Cieyrin]

Pathfinder makes Diviners (and Seers!) considerably more sexy though.

Speaking of...*cracks whip* Back to work on your PF Psionics guide! :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Other than small-scope utility stuff (like See Invisibility or Identify), actual divinations should take the form of Incantations or other plot magic, in my opinion.


Speaking of...*cracks whip* Back to work on your PF Psionics guide! :smalltongue:

I have a good excuse! My draenei priest is now level 82 :smallwink:

I am working on it, I just tend to post in chunks... but I will say that all of you keeping me to the grindstone is great motivation, so thank you. :smallsmile:

[Keld Denar]

Lightning Leap is actually Transmutation. I found this out when I was looking for non-Conjouration teleports for my Suel Arcanamach. SAs don't get Conjouration, which kinda bites.

Don't forget that Lesser Orbs are also fun to load into a Spellstoring weapon (what self-respecting gish DOESN'T have a Spellstoring weapon?). An extra 5d8 acid damage as a free action 1/combat is nothing to skoff at.

[Cieyrin]

Lightning Leap is actually Transmutation. I found this out when I was looking for non-Conjouration teleports for my Suel Arcanamach. SAs don't get Conjouration, which kinda bites.

Which is really weird, if you think about it, considering you have both Evocation and Conjuration elements to it. I'll still take it, though, b/c changing into lightning is just cool. :smallcool:

[Infernalbargain]

Pathfinder also allows you to ban divination.

[HalfDragonCube]

How would the teleporting/brawling duo know where each other went?:smallconfused:

Unless they got some kind of divination spells (which usually take a while to cast) then they would have trouble locating one another after they 'beam out'.

Maybe they got some kind of curse laid on them that teleports them both simultaneously every twenty seconds.

Wouldn't they die of exposure or starvation after a while?

[Keld Denar]

Continuous psionic item of Trace Teleport?

Otherwise, I got nothing...lol!

That does kinda remind me of one of the scenes from the movie Jumper. As bad as that movie was, that was a really cool fight scene.

[Psyren]

That does kinda remind me of one of the scenes from the movie Jumper. As bad as that movie was, that was a really cool fight scene.

You know, that would be an awesome idea for a psionic one-shot...

[TroubleBrewing]

A game based on "Jumper" wouldn't actually work if I DMed it. Whichever player had to play Haden Christiansen would die in a fire as soon as the game started.

[Eldariel]

Continuous psionic item of Trace Teleport?

Otherwise, I got nothing...lol!

That does kinda remind me of one of the scenes from the movie Jumper. As bad as that movie was, that was a really cool fight scene.

Greater Scrying helps.