3.5 Spellthief - Sorcerer - Invisible Blade - Daggerspell Mage

[Etrivar]

I've come up with a build that I like a lot, and I'm wondering what everyone else thinks of it. Spellthief 1/ Sorcerer 5/ Daggerspell Mage 9/ Invisible Blade 5. Here's some of my reasoning:

Spellthief: I need a Sneak Attack die for DSM, so I could have gone with rogue, but the Spellthief gets all of the stuff that the Rogue does at first level, plus steal-spell, so, why not?

Sorcerer: CAN'T STAND wizards, would rather die than play one, open to other suggestions. Other than that, it gets me to the spell level needed fastest.

Daggerspell Mage: Does it really need explaining? For a combat-rogue/caster this is simply an awesome PRC. Absolutely LOVE the feel of this class.

Invisible Blade: Gives Char a bit more melee robustness, and the feinting makes it much easier to sneak attack, which fits, because bluff is a sorcerer class skill anyway.

I'm planning to commit most of my feats to the two weapon fighting progression and other melee feats, and most of my spells are going to go to damage and buffs.

What does everyone think? Are there any classes that give the same overall feel, but would be more effective? Are there any feats that fit particularly well, or spells that would be helpful to this build? Any other miscellaneous thoughts, comments, concerns, suggestions, gripes, words of wisdom, or PEACH'es?

[Keld Denar]

Couple issues I see off the bat.

Invisible Blade isn't a caster PrC. It doesn't progress casting at all. It gives you up to a +5 to your AC. You can get that and MORE from more and higher level spells. A ~CL15 Extended Dragonskin will give you +5 NA and Energy Resistance 20 without lighting 5 class levels on fire. A casting of Greater Mirror Image or Great Blinking will protect you even more, and Elemental Body will give you even more durability. Casting is the way to get resiliance, not other classes. Its also Int focused, and you are casting as a Sorcerer, which means you need to invest in a decent Int to get the most out of IB, which takes away from your other stats. You already need Dex, Cha, and Con, and you can't completely neglect Str. I'd either shift to wizard base, which you vehemently don't want to do, or drop the Invisible Blade. I'd steer toward the latter.

An alternative to IB, would be Arcane Trickster (DMG) or Unseen Seer (CMage). Both give full casting and some SA progression. I'd even go so far as to neglect Daggerspell Mage for some combination of both, but you seem pretty attached to DSM, which is fine.

Also, the Spelltheif idea is grand. Look up the Master Spelltheif feat in Complete Scoundrel for even more fun.

[Daftendirekt]

With Invisible Blade's INT to AC, you'd be better off making a wizard. But, you probably won't do that.

Also, take the Master Spellthief feat, CSco79. Makes your Spellthief and arcane caster levels stack for the purpose of determining what level spells you can steal. They also stack for determining your caster level for arcane spells. Also, no spell failure for stolen spells while wearing light armor.

[Etrivar]

I agree that the wizard makes more sense when coupled with the IB, so I'll drop the IB, but I'm hesitant to go for pure spell-defenses, because my DM is fond of throwing AMF's at us:smallfurious:, so a combat class that doesn't rely purely on magic would be a nice fallback to have. Can anyone think of something that would fit that (other than Dashing Swordsman, cuz of the Char:smallwink:). if there's another that will give spell progress at the same time as real melee progress, PLEASE tell me!

[Thespianus]

Unseen Seer, from Complete Mage. 10 levels of: 3/4 BAB, 6+int skillpoints, full casting, the best Sneak Attack-boosting spell in the game (Hunter's Eye from the Ranger spell list) and "normal" +1D6/3 level Sneak Attack progression, and you get Silent Spell and Guarded Mind (as Nondetection) as class features.

You get decent (Rogue-decent) BAB so you can hold your own as a flanking glass cannon even in AMF-fields, even if spell casting naturally makes everything GigaWatts better.

And double-yes to the Master Spellthief feat.

[Keld Denar]

If you are high enough level to encounter AMFs, you are high enough level that 5 points of AC while naked isn't gonna make ANY difference. You're strongest move at that point is to double move away and hope you find the edge.

If you are worried about getting dispelled, there are a few things you can do. A Ring of Enduring Arcana gives you a +4 CL to resist dispels. That, combined with Practiced Spellcaster to offset the lost CLs you'll get from taking Spelltheif1 and DSM1 will help keep your spells up as well. Any other CL boosts (such as UMDing a Bead of Karma) will also be beneficial.

There isn't really anything like what you are looking for. Abjurant Champion has a d10 HD and 5/5 casting (and 5/5 BAB!), and you'll definitely qualify for it without trouble, but none of it's abilities will work in a dead magic zone except for the larger HD.

Armored casting isn't too hard to get. The above Master Spellthief feat will allow you to wear up to light armor and still cast spells with no trouble. A feat spent on Battlecaster (CArcane) will allow you to wear up to medium. That gets you Mithril Full Plate with 0% ASF, if thats REALLY whats important to you (comes with a 10,000g+ price tag though). Really, though, in an AMF, Mithril Full Plate is only 3 AC higher than Mithril BP, and only 4 higher than a simple Chain Shirt, and those 3-4 points aren't gonna make too much difference if you are otherwise stripped of all of your magical defenses. So...really weigh the value of them.

[pilvento]

this is also my favourite prc so ill give u a hand.

INT build (best) 2rogue/3swashbuckler (darning outlaw)/5any int caster (beguiler instead of wizard? or duskblade?/daggerspellmage10/invisibleblade5

for the Cha based build? battledancer gives u cha to ac, monk+sorcerer feat also gives u cha to ac, boots of battledancing gives cha to dmg if u moved.

i also hate wizzards but we must admit they are the key to this PrC

[Hazzardevil]

You like Spellthief don't you? and I'm pretty sure Spellthief gets Concentration, Jump, Spellcraft and Tumble as class skills. That means you can enter suel arcanamach. take a level of abjurant champion before hand and then start suel.
Suel is basically a gish prestige class that gives up to level 5 sorcerer spells on a select list of school.
Somethign along the lines of abjuration, edivination, illusion and trnasmutation. THen take master spellthief and add caster levels. Abjurant champion is as stated before a good gish prestige class and suel has average bab. you only need 2 more spell casting levels further after 4 levels of suel, (4 is a good break point, after that it's just a dead level and a small amount of new abilitys,) I would reccomend some levels in crusader and jade pheonix mage, this leaves you with spellcasting and good maneuvers.

[Seerow]

Definitely go for Beguiler over Sorcerer. It's int based, still spontaneous, and its spell list likely matches up with what you want to do as a sneaky character. (unless you were planning some sneak attack ray antics, in which case stick with sorcerer... but still that's going to end up being horribly weak)

[Private-Prinny]

Also, the Spelltheif idea is grand. Look up the Master Spelltheif feat in Complete Scoundrel for even more fun.


And double-yes to the Master Spellthief feat.

Master Spellthief would be terrible for this build. Everyone seems to like pretending that this passage doesn't exist.


At any one time, a spellthief can possess a maximum number of stolen spell levels equal to his class level (treat 0-level spells as 1/2 level for this purpose). For instance, a 4th-level spellthief can have two stolen 2nd-level spells, or one 2nd-level spell and two 1st-level spells, or any other combination of 0-level, 1st-level, and 2nd-level spells totaling four levels. If he steals a spell that would cause him to exceed this limit, he must choose to lose stolen spells sufficient to reduce his total number of stolen spell levels to no more than his maximum.

Your Spellthief class level is 1. If you steal a spell of higher than 1st level, you lose it immediately. Without the helping hand of actually being able to on to higher level spells, the only things Master Spellthief gives you are the ability to cast in light armor and a +1 CL boost, both of which are easy to get from other, non-feat sources.

[faceroll]

Definitely go for Beguiler over Sorcerer. It's int based, still spontaneous, and its spell list likely matches up with what you want to do as a sneaky character. (unless you were planning some sneak attack ray antics, in which case stick with sorcerer... but still that's going to end up being horribly weak)

Beguiler is a trickster rogue-ish class that centers around subterfuge and "sleep now" spells rather than gorey kidney stabs to end opponents.

If you want to use sneak attacks, I would steer away from Beguiler. It just doesn't synergize that well with sneak attack builds.

[Keld Denar]

Your Spellthief class level is 1. If you steal a spell of higher than 1st level, you lose it immediately. Without the helping hand of actually being able to on to higher level spells, the only things Master Spellthief gives you are the ability to cast in light armor and a +1 CL boost, both of which are easy to get from other, non-feat sources.

Um, what about this passage?


Benefit: Your spellthief levels stack with levels of other arcane spellcaster classes (that is, levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting other than the spellthief) for the purpose of determining what level of spell you can steal. For example, a 4th-level spellthief/4th-level wizard could steal spells of up to 4th level, as if he were an 8th-level spellthief.

Since the amount of spells you can steal is a function of the steal spells ability, which is a function of your spellthief level, which is the sum of your arcane spellcaster levels and spellthief level as granted by the Master Spellthief feat, then I'd say its pretty clear that you can hold spells based on the sum of your spellthief and arcane caster levels.

[Forged Fury]

Since the amount of spells you can steal is a function of the steal spells ability, which is a function of your spellthief level, which is the sum of your arcane spellcaster levels and spellthief level as granted by the Master Spellthief feat, then I'd say its pretty clear that you can hold spells based on the sum of your spellthief and arcane caster levels.
Couldn't you steal a spell but not necessarily be able to hold it? The feat looks like it is speaking specifically to the level of spell that you can steal, not necessarily advancing the entire Steal Spells class feature of the Spellthief. I'd have to look closer at it.

[Private-Prinny]

Since the amount of spells you can steal is a function of the steal spells ability, which is a function of your spellthief level, which is the sum of your arcane spellcaster levels and spellthief level as granted by the Master Spellthief feat, then I'd say its pretty clear that you can hold spells based on the sum of your spellthief and arcane caster levels.

Uh, no. It stacks for what spells you can steal, not what spells you can hold. Notice that the example is a 4th level Spellthief, meaning that he would actually have the capacity to hold a 4th level spell if he stole it. There is literally nothing in the text of the feat that even begins to mention total spell slot capacity for theft.

[Keld Denar]

Except that the whole part about stealing and holding spells is all in the Steal Spell(SU) ability write-up. Master Spellthief advances that whole class feature. What level spells you can retain is a function of the max level spell you can steal.

[Thespianus]

Except that the whole part about stealing and holding spells is all in the Steal Spell(SU) ability write-up. Master Spellthief advances that whole class feature. What level spells you can retain is a function of the max level spell you can steal.

Even if that isn't the case - I can see a DM taking Private Prinny's position in this - the Steal Spell ability still gives you the ability to Full Attack from a flanking position and , sactificing 1D6 sneak attack per hit, you rip as many spells from the target caster as you have attacks. Even if you can't hold on to those spells, you tear spells from the Spell caster you're attacking.

With a TWF-wraithstriking Spellthief build, as the one above, you can tear 4, 6 or 8 spells from the target caster, per round, while only sacrificing 1D6 of the 45-90 sneak attack damage points you incur with each hit.

Even if he survives such an attack, you've probably stolen his "Get out of Dodge" teleport spells. That ain't bad at all.

[Forged Fury]

Except that the whole part about stealing and holding spells is all in the Steal Spell(SU) ability write-up. Master Spellthief advances that whole class feature.Does it? I'm reading the Benefit passage you posted above and it doesn't seem to say that. Here's most of what you posted:

Originally Posted by Complete Scoundrel, page 79
Benefit: Your spellthief levels stack with levels of other arcane spellcaster classes (that is, levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting other than the spellthief) for the purpose of determining what level of spell you can steal.It doesn't seem to advance the whole class feature, only "what level of spell you can steal."

I get that it might be able to be read both ways, it seems to be more reasonable to read it in a manner that doesn't essentially make Spellthief a 1-level class.

[Thespianus]

I get that it might be able to be read both ways, it seems to be more reasonable to read it in a manner that doesn't essentially make Spellthief a 1-level class.

Wouldn't be the first time something as odd as that has turned up, though ;)

Still, just being able to steal a bunch of spells from an enemy caster is a very powerful ability, even if you can't actually use them yourself.