Epic Levelled Commoner: How "powerful?"

[John Cribati]

Because I'm curious. Is there anything, at any level, that would have trouble defeating a commoner who somehow lived to Epic levels?

This can apply to either the 3.X or the new 4e systems.

[Douglas]

A toad (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/toad.htm) would have difficulty pulling it off.

More seriously, a level 21 Commoner might be roughly equivalent to a level 8 to 10 Fighter, higher if the Commoner gets PC level 21 Wealth for his gear.

[randomhero00]

A toad (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/toad.htm) would have difficulty pulling it off.

More seriously, a level 21 Commoner might be roughly equivalent to a level 8 to 10 Fighter, higher if the Commoner gets PC level 21 Wealth for his gear.

Yeah, it would all depend on if he was wearing commoner gear or WBL gear.

[Lans]

There are a few fairly powerful options based on level. For example their is a feat that allows you to summon a devil of CR=1/2 Character level.
Other options include
Soulmelds- If the commoner can bind a Soulmeld he can use gate
True speak- has some nifty options
Heritage feats get some usefull abilities
Wild Cohort gets the commoner a an animal companion

Might be others, but those are the go to options.

So just eyeballing it- A 22nd level commoner should be able to deal with a level 12 character and challenges pretty easily between the 11 CR devil, the Dire Elephant, Summon Monster 4 or 5, and himself.

[Fouredged Sword]

Epic handle animal. Say hi to my hord of bears!

[Tyndmyr]

Yeah, WBL has some significant oomphf. Also, he'll have a fair amount of feats to allocate, including an epic feat.

Consider that distant shot is a possibility.

This guy should be able to do some crazy things.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

This guy should be able to do some crazy things.

Yep.

Basically, our Epic Commoner takes his +15 Vorpal Adamantine Rake out to the fields and dishes out brutal justice to the alien civilization trying to infiltrate our world through a portal hidden in the haystacks. And, given the average number of encounters, he does this 3-4 times a day.

Also, he definitely finds the needle while he's at it.

[Another_Poet]

Agreed with above. With standard WBL he's as good as a 15th level Fighter. With intelligent feat choices + UMD scrolls/wands he could be a decent contender at that level.

[Telonius]

If this is 3.5, he will certainly have the Chicken-Infested flaw. That alone will give him an endless flock of minions. Combined with epic skills and WBL, he'll be a challenge.

[Another_Poet]

If this is 3.5, he will certainly have the Chicken-Infested flaw. That alone will give him an endless flock of minions. Combined with epic skills and WBL, he'll be a challenge.

Chicken-Infested: The only way it could have a bigger gap between "how awesome it sounds" and "how awesome it is" would be if it was called Monk-Infested.

[Morph Bark]

There are a few fairly powerful options based on level. For example their is a feat that allows you to summon a devil of CR=1/2 Character level.
Other options include
Soulmelds- If the commoner can bind a Soulmeld he can use gate
True speak- has some nifty options
Heritage feats get some usefull abilities
Wild Cohort gets the commoner a an animal companion

Might be others, but those are the go to options.

So just eyeballing it- A 22nd level commoner should be able to deal with a level 12 character and challenges pretty easily between the 11 CR devil, the Dire Elephant, Summon Monster 4 or 5, and himself.

This is why I once tried statting a Commoner god. Basically, he had everything a level 1 Commoner could possibly have. Every feat, maximum skill points, every item of which the price was equal to or less than his maximum starting wealth, the works.

Man it took a while getting all possible level 1 feats together.

[Telonius]

Chicken-Infested: The only way it could have a bigger gap between "how awesome it sounds" and "how awesome it is" would be if it was called Monk-Infested.

A horde of angry trained chickens attacking an enemy isn't awesome? No matter what, one in 20 will hit for something.

Even if he doesn't use them as direct attack implements, he could break WBL with them. Chickens are 2cp each. Assuming 8 hours of rest, he could make almost 100gp a day doing nothing but producing chickens.

[Human Paragon 3]

This is sort of off topic, but I once had a character who was a 6th level NPC expert, and he was a fair challenge to my level 3-4 party. The key is encounter design.

In the encounter where they finally killed him, he had a good deal of backup in the form of level 1 warriors. Here's the scenario:

4 level 1 warriors had broken into the temple, killed the parishioners, locked and barred the door, and climbed into the bell tower where they had a good vantage point of the town square.

Next, the Expert in question lit the town's tavern on fire. It was full of people at the time, including the PCs and over a dozen townsfolk.

The PCs rapidly got to work getting the townsfolk out while the party's monk ran up to the second floor to look for anyone who might be trapped.

As the confused, frightened townsfolk streamed out into the square, the archers in the tower started indiscriminately taking them out, causing more carnage and death. Meanwhile the fire spread to the house next door.

In this scenario, the PCs had a lot to process. They had the threat of the archers, who were killing roughly 3 commoners per round and scoring the occasional potshot on a PC. You also had the commoners themselves who were panicking. Add the spreading fire to the equation, and you've got quite the calamity.

At this point, the expert made his appearance, wielding a scythe and lobbing alchemist fire, again killing indiscriminately. It took the PCs quite a while to bring him down because of his good HP and the distractions bogging them down. In the time it took for them to neutralize the situation, another explosion went off across town at the dungeons, where the PCs were holding a high-level prisoner, and he escaped. Jail break accomplished. :smallamused:

I think the impressive thing is that an encounter consisting of 4 level 1 warrior NPCs and one level 6 Expert NPC proved to be a difficult challenge for a party of five 4th level player characters, including a wizard and a warblade.

[Radar]

Agreed with above. With standard WBL he's as good as a 15th level Fighter. With intelligent feat choices + UMD scrolls/wands he could be a decent contender at that level.
Handle Animals abuse could give the commoner up to three loyal creatures way over his level (see Bubs The Commoner). WBL can get you even higher - one of the strongest Test of Spite builds was a Commoner abusing his WBL and Stronghold Builder Guide (search for Cube, if it ever was explicitly posted).

Chicken Infested is useful for certain necromancer builds (exploding zombies anyone?) or for mass buffers.

[John Cribati]

Another question: How many levels of Rogue would an Awakened House-cat have to take in order to defeat this Epic Commoner?

[RTGoodman]

Relevant thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3003461) is somewhat relevant.

(Yes, it's like 4 years old. But it's so awesome I bookmarked it.)

[tonberrian]

Relevant thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3003461) is somewhat relevant.

(Yes, it's like 4 years old. But it's so awesome I bookmarked it.)

I was just thinking about that thread. Good times.

[PersonMan]

A horde of angry trained chickens attacking an enemy isn't awesome? No matter what, one in 20 will hit for something.

Even if he doesn't use them as direct attack implements, he could break WBL with them. Chickens are 2cp each. Assuming 8 hours of rest, he could make almost 100gp a day doing nothing but producing chickens.

Yes?

He's saying that it's awesome, but doesn't sound awesome at all.

Although I disagree. Monk-infested sounds pretty cool.

"You see a wizard walking down the road. He moves to take his water skin off his belt, but instead a full-grown man wearing sandals and robes appears in his hand. The wizard rolls his eyes, drops the man and grabs the skin."

[Morph Bark]

Yes?

He's saying that it's awesome, but doesn't sound awesome at all.

Although I disagree. Monk-infested sounds pretty cool.

"You see a wizard walking down the road. He moves to take his water skin off his belt, but instead a full-grown man wearing sandals and robes appears in his hand. The wizard rolls his eyes, drops the man and grabs the skin."

Monk-Infestation: the most grievous disease known to the Tippyverse. Don't let it claim any more victims, donate now to the Monk-Infested Relief Fund.

[faceroll]

Chicken-Infested: The only way it could have a bigger gap between "how awesome it sounds" and "how awesome it is" would be if it was called Monk-Infested.

Just use Mass Awaken Animal after you're out of things to draw.

[Yuki Akuma]

Just use Mass Awaken Animal after you're out of things to draw.

Out of things to draw?

Spell component pouch.

You are never out of things to draw.

[ffone]

Take Distant Shot, then use WBL to get a flying item, a necklace of adaptation (so you can breathe in thin atmosphere), a force bow, and shoot stuff from the stratosphere. You won't be able to kill stuff indoors/underground, but if you just want to find SOME things to kill for XP, you likely can.

If there's some item to prevent death from high/low environmental pressure, you could shoot stuff from space. And if you have enough wealth, buy the epic ring of sequestering for perma-invis. You'll be out of range of true seeing, blindsense etc. (but See Invis has no range limit).

[Tyndmyr]

Out of things to draw?

Spell component pouch.

You are never out of things to draw.

As a free action, I fill the world with chickens. As a standard action, I grant them all intelligence.

I'll use my move action to consider the error of my ways.

[Morph Bark]

As a free action, I fill the world with chickens. As a standard action, I grant them all intelligence.

I'll use my move action to consider the fowlly of my ways.

That's better.

[Vulaas]

A horde of angry trained chickens attacking an enemy isn't awesome? No matter what, one in 20 will hit for something.

Even if he doesn't use them as direct attack implements, he could break WBL with them. Chickens are 2cp each. Assuming 8 hours of rest, he could make almost 100gp a day doing nothing but producing chickens.

Commoner's wife: "Again? Another hundred gold today, when just yesterday you sold all our crops at the market? How are you making this money?!"
Commoner: "Oh, you know, just spent all day whipping out my **** for people who might want to give me a couple copper for it."

[Frozen_Feet]

^Damn censorship. That pun deserves to be seen. :smallfrown:

[tyckspoon]

Take Distant Shot, then use WBL to get a flying item, a necklace of adaptation (so you can breathe in thin atmosphere), a force bow, and shoot stuff from the stratosphere. You won't be able to kill stuff indoors/underground, but if you just want to find SOME things to kill for XP, you likely can.

If there's some item to prevent death from high/low environmental pressure, you could shoot stuff from space. And if you have enough wealth, buy the epic ring of sequestering for perma-invis. You'll be out of range of true seeing, blindsense etc. (but See Invis has no range limit).

That's ok, the distance penalty to Spot to see you means that nobody can possibly make that check unless you apply something like the Omniscifer loop to it. (On the down side, you have the same penalty back, which makes it near impossible to actually choose targets on the planet surface. Get some kind of scrying or find an ability that removes that penalty altogether.)

[Cieyrin]

I statted up a Commoner 30 a couple years back as part of a challenge a buddy of mine gave to me. The man could certainly farm like it was no ones business, Profession(Farmer) ~+60. Earth elementals keeping pests of all sorts down and keeping them damn adventurers from trampling his wheat crop.

It's a pity I never got a chance to play him. I keep meaning to have him be a top NPC of a starting area for a campaign but my campaigns tends to fold before they get much of anywhere or before they start. :smallannoyed:

[BayardSPSR]

^Damn censorship. That pun deserves to be seen. :smallfrown:

Edit and replace with '...rooster...'? That might get the pun across better... Maybe...

[averagejoe]

The Mod They Call Me: Should be in 3.X/d20.