Factotum/Chameleon help

[Venger]

So, I'm playing a human factotum in my current game and am at lvl 4. here's what I've got so far:

factotum 1 Font of inspiration 1/Able Learner (for chameleon)/ and a homebrew feat the DM gave me that basically allows me to use a handgun, because my character is a 1930s era con artist
factotum 2
factotum 3 knowledge devotion
factotum 4

I've got a mithral chain shirt on right now and no magic items yet. I carry a mighty composite longbow (str bonus +4), a gun (range 30ft, dmg 2d6, 7 bullet clip 1 full round to reload) and a greatsword. the dm's holding us to the treasure tables from the DMG, so I have about 300gp to my name right now

I'm going to take the 5th lvl of factotum and then take all 10 lvls of chameleon.

where should I go from here? if I do this, I'll have 5 lvls left. I considered mystic theurge to give me 5 more caster lvls for 25th lvl spells, but the chart of chameleon stops at 10. would I get more spells? I know I wouldn't be able to get 7th/8th lvl spells this way, but would I get more spells per day?

since at chameleon 10, I'll already be casting dual 20ths, I'm not extrmely worried about that, I was just sort of wanting to keep up spellcasting since this build has powerful spells but a slow start.

at factotum 8, I get "cunning surge" which lets me burn 3 inspiration points to take an extra standard action during my turn. so I might go back into factotum for 3 lvls

in any case, what's a good idea to do with those 5 lvls? is cunning surge worth the extra 3? if so, what is good with those 2 lvls?

ur priest gives rebuke undead and a few more divine spells along with boosting my arcane caster lvl for factotum spells. how useful is turn/rebuke undead in actual game? (this build can do both at its ECL)

and what would be good for feats? both regular feats and stuff to keep in mind for the chameleon's free floating feat at 2nd lvl

characters abilities are as follows:

str 18
con 14
dex 10
int 19 (4th lvl boost)
wis 10 (planning on a periapt for chameleon lvls)
cha 10

[yugi24862]

Cunning surge IS worth the extra 3 levels, it's the best way to get standad actions without drawback. I like a factutom8/Swordsage2/Chameleon10. You can take swordsage before or after Chameleon, but get cunning surge ASAP, as IP regen each fight.

[Draz74]

I'd personally go with the order

Factotum 5 / Chameleon 2 / Factotum +3

then add another 8 Chameleon levels and 2 other levels (Swordsage is a good option, especially if you can use Fractional BAB), in whatever order strikes your fancy.

The Chameleon "Floating Feat" is amazing, even more amazing than Cunning Surge IMO. So I'd prioritize getting it ASAP. But beyond that, I don't see a reason to rush through other Chameleon levels.

[Gnaeus]

where should I go from here? if I do this, I'll have 5 lvls left. I considered mystic theurge to give me 5 more caster lvls for 25th lvl spells, but the chart of chameleon stops at 10. would I get more spells? I know I wouldn't be able to get 7th/8th lvl spells this way, but would I get more spells per day?

since at chameleon 10, I'll already be casting dual 20ths, I'm not extrmely worried about that, I was just sort of wanting to keep up spellcasting since this build has powerful spells but a slow start.

You cannot advance chameleon spellcasting. Chameleon does not give spellcasting. It allows you to take a focus, which gives you spellcasting. MT does not help Chameleon, and Chameleon does not qualify you to enter MT.

[Venger]

You cannot advance chameleon spellcasting. Chameleon does not give spellcasting. It allows you to take a focus, which gives you spellcasting. MT does not help Chameleon, and Chameleon does not qualify you to enter MT.

okay. I didn't think you could advance chameleon spellcasting anyway. thank you for clearing that up, it lets me take something off the list.

I already have 20th lvl spellcasting anyway, so that's not that big a deal.

I am a little confused as to what you mean by not qualifying for mystic theurge. I can cast 2nd lvl arcane spells already as a factotum, even without my arcane focus. and my focuses do give me spellcasting, from the way I read it, since that's the word RoD uses. so why can't I cast 2nd lvl divine spells? since lvl 7 of chameleon, I'm capable of arcane/divine at the same time, was that it?

do you mean that I can't enter any prCs for casters with a caster prerequisite lvl at all?

because if I'm taking factotum to 8 and chameleon to 10, I was thinking a 1 lvl dip into sandshaper. because extra spells are fun, as is boosting caster level :D

so can I just not take classes that require casting? that seems counterintuitive


I'd personally go with the order

Factotum 5 / Chameleon 2 / Factotum +3

then add another 8 Chameleon levels and 2 other levels (Swordsage is a good option, especially if you can use Fractional BAB), in whatever order strikes your fancy.

The Chameleon "Floating Feat" is amazing, even more amazing than Cunning Surge IMO. So I'd prioritize getting it ASAP. But beyond that, I don't see a reason to rush through other Chameleon levels.

well, the reason I'm excited to get through all the levels of chameleon is that I get to boost my ability scores, and get powerful spellcasting.

maybe I misunderstand what you mean by "rush" do you mean I should not take them at all?

[Venger]

oh and what book is swordsage in? is it in 3.0? is it in tome of battle? was it renamed? wikipedia's not helping me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prestige_classes

[yugi24862]

Thats because its a base class, from tome of battle. You can use it too take some of the utility maneuvers, like assassins stance and shadow blink.

The thing with factotum is that is DOES NOT give casting. It gives you the ability to cast SLA's ( spell like ability's) which you can pick from the wiz/sorc list. We are saying take full chameleon, just take 2 levels, go back to factotum for cunning surge, and go back to chameleon

[Venger]

Thats because its a base class, from tome of battle. You can use it too take some of the utility maneuvers, like assassins stance and shadow blink.

The thing with factotum is that is DOES NOT give casting. It gives you the ability to cast SLA's ( spell like ability's) which you can pick from the wiz/sorc list. We are saying take full chameleon, just take 2 levels, go back to factotum for cunning surge, and go back to chameleon

whoops. I always confuse it with spellsword. I know factotum doesn't give casting, but I think chameleon does, "your caster level is equal to twice your class level" so I could theoretically qualify for sand shaper (for example, which requires a 5th lvl caster) at chameleon 3. if I don't have a caster level, then doesn't that mean that I'm incapable of joining a caster prc? that's my question.

[Gnaeus]

I am a little confused as to what you mean by not qualifying for mystic theurge. I can cast 2nd lvl arcane spells already as a factotum, even without my arcane focus. and my focuses do give me spellcasting, from the way I read it, since that's the word RoD uses. so why can't I cast 2nd lvl divine spells? since lvl 7 of chameleon, I'm capable of arcane/divine at the same time, was that it?

do you mean that I can't enter any prCs for casters with a caster prerequisite lvl at all?

because if I'm taking factotum to 8 and chameleon to 10, I was thinking a 1 lvl dip into sandshaper. because extra spells are fun, as is boosting caster level :D

so can I just not take classes that require casting? that seems counterintuitive


I don't remember the exact text, but taking a focus as a Chameleon does not qualify you for any feats or PRCs involving spellcasting or caster levels. Probably because you could just choose a different focus the next day and no longer have that ability. Reread the class, you will find the text. (someone with RoD nearby help me out please.)

That said, Chameleon is an interesting, flavorful, but not supremely powerful class. My DM allowed me to use my focuses to qualify for feats, and it hasn't broken the game any. It is reasonable, but pretty clearly not RAW legal.

[Venger]

I don't remember the exact text, but taking a focus as a Chameleon does not qualify you for any feats or PRCs involving spellcasting or caster levels. Probably because you could just choose a different focus the next day and no longer have that ability. Reread the class, you will find the text. (someone with RoD nearby help me out please.)

That said, Chameleon is an interesting, flavorful, but not supremely powerful class. My DM allowed me to use my focuses to qualify for feats, and it hasn't broken the game any. It is reasonable, but pretty clearly not RAW legal.

well, while I understand what you're saying, isn't that kind of the same as, for example, an alignment restriction while entering a prc? you might need it when you enter, but there aren't any penalties if you change it later on like there are with paladin.

for example, you have to be nonevil and nonchaotic to be a rainbow servant, but it doesn't say that anything changes if these things become no longer true. since it doesn't say that you become an "ex-rainbow servant" for example if you lose ability to spellcast (like I would if I assumed a different focus) then I assume that that is what happens.

it's the same principle that, as you said, lets chameleons use their free floating feat to qualify for prCs, for example sand shaper only requires one, so if you turned the feat into it and took a level, you wouldn't become an "ex-sandshaper" if you changed the feats to something else, because there's no such thing as an "ex-sandshaper"

is there something wrong with my reasoning?

[TheCIASentMe]

well, while I understand what you're saying, isn't that kind of the same as, for example, an alignment restriction while entering a prc? you might need it when you enter, but there aren't any penalties if you change it later on like there are with paladin.

for example, you have to be nonevil and nonchaotic to be a rainbow servant, but it doesn't say that anything changes if these things become no longer true. since it doesn't say that you become an "ex-rainbow servant" for example if you lose ability to spellcast (like I would if I assumed a different focus) then I assume that that is what happens.

it's the same principle that, as you said, lets chameleons use their free floating feat to qualify for prCs, for example sand shaper only requires one, so if you turned the feat into it and took a level, you wouldn't become an "ex-sandshaper" if you changed the feats to something else, because there's no such thing as an "ex-sandshaper"

is there something wrong with my reasoning?

Yeah, you keep glossing over the fact that (quote), "You can't use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option. You can use your bonus feat to qualify for such options, but if you change the feat, you suffer the normal drawbacks for no longer meeting a prerequisite or requirement."

When it comes to prestige classes, the Chameleon is not considered to be a divine or arcane caster. In addition, RAW Complete Warrior, page 16 I believe, has the rules for if you no longer qualify for a prestige class.

The DMG may not have this rule in it, but it does not contradict this rule either. Therefore we can only assume that the rule stands. If someone can find an errata or rule that directly contradicts the rule in Complete Warrior then you've got something. Until then the rule stands.

Gnaeus's situation is different. His DM specifically allowed him to break that rule in a homerule. Just because Gnaeus's situation occurred does not give precedence to the homerule as being legitimate in all games.


That being said, Factotum 8/ Chameleon 10/ Swordsage 2 as previously mentioned is pretty good. You could also switch out Swordsage for Artificer or Archivist for some simple low level buffs.

[Venger]

Yeah, you keep glossing over the fact that (quote), "You can't use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option. You can use your bonus feat to qualify for such options, but if you change the feat, you suffer the normal drawbacks for no longer meeting a prerequisite or requirement."

When it comes to prestige classes, the Chameleon is not considered to be a divine or arcane caster. In addition, RAW Complete Warrior, page 16 I believe, has the rules for if you no longer qualify for a prestige class.

The DMG may not have this rule in it, but it does not contradict this rule either. Therefore we can only assume that the rule stands. If someone can find an errata or rule that directly contradicts the rule in Complete Warrior then you've got something. Until then the rule stands.

Gnaeus's situation is different. His DM specifically allowed him to break that rule in a homerule. Just because Gnaeus's situation occurred does not give precedence to the homerule as being legitimate in all games.


That being said, Factotum 8/ Chameleon 10/ Swordsage 2 as previously mentioned is pretty good. You could also switch out Swordsage for Artificer or Archivist for some simple low level buffs.

whoops. you are correct. "glossing over" is exactly what I was doing. a bad habit from reading too many D&D books, when refreshing myself with rules info, I just start at the bold text out of instinct through practice.

so I can't qualify for a caster PrC. good to know. my mistake.

[Venger]

how would rogue be for those last 2 levels? when I have my arcane focus on, since I am subject to arcane spell failure, I am not permitted to wear armor. to compensate for this, I plan to wear a monk's belt and switch my free floating feat to kung fu genius so I can get my preposterous int bonus added to my AC (that applies to touch/flatfooted and incorporeal/force attacks too!) since it gives the abilities of a 5th lvl monk to someone without monk lvls, that would include evasion, which you get at monk 2, so with 2 lvls of rogue, this would give improved evasion.

is this a viable option? how useful is improved evasion? I haven't had to make a ref save yet, except for some grease that was laid on a staircase, but that was my grease so it doesn't really count. do they come up more at higher levels? I know generally they scale the slowest for monsters, does that mean that high lvl pcs will encounter a lot of ref save stuff?

[begooler]

If you are doing rogue 2, instead of using that evasion to get improved evasion, I might get the ACF in Complete Mage that allows you to reflect touch spells that miss you back at their caster. It's great if you have a good touch AC.

[Venger]

If you are doing rogue 2, instead of using that evasion to get improved evasion, I might get the ACF in Complete Mage that allows you to reflect touch spells that miss you back at their caster. It's great if you have a good touch AC.

that is a very interesting variant, but it is a bit of a turnoff that you can only use it a few times a day. especially since I have a dex of 10. I'll definitely keep it in mind for future character builds though. thanks :)

[Khatoblepas]

You cannot advance chameleon spellcasting. Chameleon does not give spellcasting. It allows you to take a focus, which gives you spellcasting. MT does not help Chameleon, and Chameleon does not qualify you to enter MT.

You cannot QUALIFY for a class that advances spellcasting, but that doesn't mean that you cannot progress your casting through it.

Chameleon has a spells per day table, a caster level, and casts arcane or divine spells. So long as you qualify for the class elsewhere, you can advance Chameleon casting.

You just can't qualify for it.

Same logic as using metamagic feats or Extra Spell on a Chameleon. Qualify elsewhere, get boon for Chameleon.

[begooler]

that is a very interesting variant, but it is a bit of a turnoff that you can only use it a few times a day. especially since I have a dex of 10. I'll definitely keep it in mind for future character builds though. thanks :)

Ok, I didn't realize at first that you are getting evasion from the chameleon's mimic class feature ability.

If you are looking to invest in something that will get you more out of evasion, something to add your INT to Reflex saves could be worthwhile then, such as the feat Insightful Reflexes, or a level in Warblade for Battle Clarity.

[Venger]

Ok, I didn't realize at first that you are getting evasion from the chameleon's mimic class feature ability.

If you are looking to invest in something that will get you more out of evasion, something to add your INT to Reflex saves could be worthwhile then, such as the feat Insightful Reflexes, or a level in Warblade for Battle Clarity.

oh, no, that evasion is hardly very useful. I can only use it for 1 minute 3 times a day. I get evasion from the monk's belt, which is always on. although it would stack to improved evasion when I have chameleon evasion turned on. thank you for pointing that out, I had forgotten. it is the best of the mimic class feature options.

the reason I'm a little turned off by spell reflection is that it's usable 1+dex mod times a day. marvin's dex mod is 0, so he would extract minimal use out of it.

oo! insightful reflexes is very exciting. I'll definitely put it on my free floating feats list for when an enemy has lots of stuff that gives ref saves.

[Venger]

You cannot QUALIFY for a class that advances spellcasting, but that doesn't mean that you cannot progress your casting through it.

Chameleon has a spells per day table, a caster level, and casts arcane or divine spells. So long as you qualify for the class elsewhere, you can advance Chameleon casting.

You just can't qualify for it.

Same logic as using metamagic feats or Extra Spell on a Chameleon. Qualify elsewhere, get boon for Chameleon.

I am a little confused by this. so you're saying if I were part chameleon and say, had several levels of wizard, for example, then I would be able to take levels in sand shaper and use its spellcasting to advance my arcane chameleon spellcasting but not my divine?

[Khatoblepas]

I am a little confused by this. so you're saying if I were part chameleon and say, had several levels of wizard, for example, then I would be able to take levels in sand shaper and use its spellcasting to advance my arcane chameleon spellcasting but not my divine?

Yes. That is correct.

[Draz74]

how would rogue be for those last 2 levels? when I have my arcane focus on, since I am subject to arcane spell failure, I am not permitted to wear armor. to compensate for this, I plan to wear a monk's belt and switch my free floating feat to kung fu genius so I can get my preposterous int bonus added to my AC (that applies to touch/flatfooted and incorporeal/force attacks too!) since it gives the abilities of a 5th lvl monk to someone without monk lvls, that would include evasion, which you get at monk 2, so with 2 lvls of rogue, this would give improved evasion.

is this a viable option? how useful is improved evasion? I haven't had to make a ref save yet, except for some grease that was laid on a staircase, but that was my grease so it doesn't really count. do they come up more at higher levels? I know generally they scale the slowest for monsters, does that mean that high lvl pcs will encounter a lot of ref save stuff?

Several problems here.

First, Monk's Belt does not give you Evasion. Read the item description. It is very specific about which 5th-level Monk abilities it gives you, and Evasion is not one of them.

Second, getting Evasion twice does not upgrade it to Improved Evasion unless it says it does. (Some PrCs have Evasion writeups that say this. Rogue and Monk, however, do not.)

Third, Improved Evasion is kind of underwhelming anyway, especially on characters with good Reflex saves (as this character should). Most DMs won't use Reflex-half attacks against your Evasion character very often, knowing they will probably be useless. When they do use such attacks against you, you'll probably pass the save anyway. So Improved Evasion only does anything in very rare circumstances. (Granted, in such cases it can definitely save your life.) Being high level probably won't make Reflex saves any more common unless your DM really likes Dragons.

Fourth, if you're planning on 10 levels of Chameleon, then eventually you will have divine spellcasting too. That means Wisdom should be the second-highest ability score on this character. So if AC is important to you (which it actually shouldn't be, mostly, at high levels), you can do fine with adding your Wisdom to your AC rather than your Intelligence. No need for wasting your floating feat on Kung Fu Genius. (Also, remember that Factotum lets you spend inspiration to temporarily add your Intelligence to your AC.)

Fifth, if you're still worried about your AC, note that you can wear certain armor without worrying about arcane spell failure. Mithral Chain Shirts with the Twilight enhancement are the most popular way to do this. That might get you a better boost to your AC than a Monk's Belt -- and for best results, combine the Mithral Shirt with two levels of Swordsage to get an armor bonus and your Wisdom bonus to your AC.


something to add your INT to Reflex saves could be worthwhile then, such as the feat Insightful Reflexes, or a level in Warblade for Battle Clarity.

Battle Clarity is capped at your Warblade level. So a one-level dip in Warblade will only add 1 to your Reflex save. Meh. Your Reflex is better off dipping a class that actually has a good Reflex progression.

There are better ways to improve your Reflex save than to spend a feat on it. Use your "Cunning Insight" ability; or buy magic items; or learn the Tome of Battle maneuver "Action before Thought" which lets you replace your Reflex save with a Concentration check.

Or just don't worry about it, because a build with 8 Factotum levels and 2 Swordsage or Rogue levels is going to have a decent Reflex save even with +0 Dex.

[Gnaeus]

Fourth, if you're planning on 10 levels of Chameleon, then eventually you will have divine spellcasting too. That means Wisdom should be the second-highest ability score on this character. So if AC is important to you (which it actually shouldn't be, mostly, at high levels), you can do fine with adding your Wisdom to your AC rather than your Intelligence. No need for wasting your floating feat on Kung Fu Genius. (Also, remember that Factotum lets you spend inspiration to temporarily add your Intelligence to your AC.)


Draz is correct, but I will add that unless your DM is very generous with time, money, and spell access, you may be using divine casting all the way through Chameleon. Your arcane casting side only lets you use the spells you have in your spellbook, and you don't get any free spells like a wizard would, so it is all about what you can find to copy. Your divine side gives you the pick of Druid, Cleric, Paladin, Ranger, and maybe Domains, Divine Bard, or PRCs. Your chances of having the exact spell you need at or below its standard spell level are much, much higher.

Some DMs will apparently allow you to add spells known through your floating feat, and then scribe them into your spellbook, but I doubt that that is common. MY dm looked at me like I had lost my mind when I suggested it. YMMV.

[Draz74]

Draz is correct, but I will add that unless your DM is very generous with time, money, and spell access, you may be using divine casting all the way through Chameleon. Your arcane casting side only lets you use the spells you have in your spellbook, and you don't get any free spells like a wizard would, so it is all about what you can find to copy. Your divine side gives you the pick of Druid, Cleric, Paladin, Ranger, and maybe Domains, Divine Bard, or PRCs. Your chances of having the exact spell you need at or below its standard spell level are much, much higher.

Some DMs will apparently allow you to add spells known through your floating feat, and then scribe them into your spellbook, but I doubt that that is common. MY dm looked at me like I had lost my mind when I suggested it. YMMV.

Hmmm, I would think adding arcane spells known through your floating feat (specifically, by selecting the Extra Spell feat from Complete Arcane) would be more likely for a DM to allow than access to Bard spells via the Divine Bard variant. :smalltongue:

Still a time-consuming method, though. And you still probably want higher INT than WIS, because you've still got loads of tasty Factotum features that depend on your INT.

I bet he can figure out a way to get good arcane spell selection anyway, even if Extra Spell doesn't fly. For all we know there's a Wizard PC in his party.

[Gnaeus]

Hmmm, I would think adding arcane spells known through your floating feat (specifically, by selecting the Extra Spell feat from Complete Arcane) would be more likely for a DM to allow than access to Bard spells via the Divine Bard variant. :smalltongue:

Even without divine bard, just Druid, Cleric, Paladin and Ranger are a LOT of spells known (Ooh, and Adept. How could I forget adept? They have a lot of arcane type spells as divine and lots of spells below normal level). Divine Bard, Shugenja, PRCs and domains are just gravy.



I bet he can figure out a way to get good arcane spell selection anyway, even if Extra Spell doesn't fly. For all we know there's a Wizard PC in his party.

Yeah, but then he is duplicating spells the party already has, and worse, he is getting common spells at standard caster level. The arcane spells I was always looking for were always stuff like X, but cast by a Bard or Y, but cast by a Warmage or a Duskblade or an Assassin. If you are just copying Wizard spells, chameleon is strictly worse than Wizard.

[Venger]

Several problems here.

First, Monk's Belt does not give you Evasion. Read the item description. It is very specific about which 5th-level Monk abilities it gives you, and Evasion is not one of them.

Second, getting Evasion twice does not upgrade it to Improved Evasion unless it says it does. (Some PrCs have Evasion writeups that say this. Rogue and Monk, however, do not.)

Third, Improved Evasion is kind of underwhelming anyway, especially on characters with good Reflex saves (as this character should). Most DMs won't use Reflex-half attacks against your Evasion character very often, knowing they will probably be useless. When they do use such attacks against you, you'll probably pass the save anyway. So Improved Evasion only does anything in very rare circumstances. (Granted, in such cases it can definitely save your life.) Being high level probably won't make Reflex saves any more common unless your DM really likes Dragons.

Fourth, if you're planning on 10 levels of Chameleon, then eventually you will have divine spellcasting too. That means Wisdom should be the second-highest ability score on this character. So if AC is important to you (which it actually shouldn't be, mostly, at high levels), you can do fine with adding your Wisdom to your AC rather than your Intelligence. No need for wasting your floating feat on Kung Fu Genius. (Also, remember that Factotum lets you spend inspiration to temporarily add your Intelligence to your AC.)

Fifth, if you're still worried about your AC, note that you can wear certain armor without worrying about arcane spell failure. Mithral Chain Shirts with the Twilight enhancement are the most popular way to do this. That might get you a better boost to your AC than a Monk's Belt -- and for best results, combine the Mithral Shirt with two levels of Swordsage to get an armor bonus and your Wisdom bonus to your AC.



Battle Clarity is capped at your Warblade level. So a one-level dip in Warblade will only add 1 to your Reflex save. Meh. Your Reflex is better off dipping a class that actually has a good Reflex progression.

There are better ways to improve your Reflex save than to spend a feat on it. Use your "Cunning Insight" ability; or buy magic items; or learn the Tome of Battle maneuver "Action before Thought" which lets you replace your Reflex save with a Concentration check.

Or just don't worry about it, because a build with 8 Factotum levels and 2 Swordsage or Rogue levels is going to have a decent Reflex save even with +0 Dex.

whoops. unarmed damage and wis bonus to AC then from the monk's belt? why on earth does it cost 13000gp?

I thought evasion always stacked, if you had evasion and get evasion, you get improved evasion, sometimes they just didn't copypasta the text.

ok, that is generally my impression of ref saves/evasion/improved evasion as well. I just wanted to make sure I was right. I haven't played a high level character before, so want to know stuff for long term

my dm's not nuts for dragons, so I'm not too worried. he's more of an undead fanboy. so there wont be a bunch of ref saves

I am aware of divine casting from chameleon. I have a set of +1 full plate heavy armor warming my bench right now till I can get to my first chameleon level, boosting my AC from the hilariously low 14 to the middling but respectable 19.

I just expect to be an arcane caster at least part of the time, so had to plan for how to have him cast spells without arcane spell failure but not be completely easy to hit and kill. he's the beef of the team, so serves to sponge up most of the damage. (party is wizard4, psychic rogue 4, rogue1/fighter3) that's the primary reason I worry about his armor class.

my wisdom is a 10, because the game started at lvl 2 and I know I wouldn't be able to cast any divine spells at all until lvl 6. so at low levels, I also maxed str, because it'll be useful at low lvls and will stay useful later on, especially since I'd be kind of helpless for a long long time without a good str since this build's base attack is not great.

I only get 6th lvl spells too, so as I lvl up, I can get periapts of wisdom eventually at +6 giving me a wis of 16 so I can cast my high lvl spells. I'm going to be generally focusing on buff/utility spells (or just spells with no saves) for my divine half.

I understand your rationale as to abilities, and if I'd started out at a highish lvl, I would have given him a better wisdom than strength, but this was not the case.

I know that I have cunning dodge, but I have a pretty low amount of inspiration points, and it only lasts for 1 round, which is why I thought to add int bonus onto AC with the monk's belt/kung fu genius combo, because my int is going to remain much higher than my wis.

that twilight property sounds interesting. what precisely does it do? how much does it cost? what book is it in?

I honestly don't care about my ref saves all that much. they don't come up very often. I was just looking for something to do with my last 2 lvls. I know my saves aren't going to be very good with 10 lvls in chameleon since it has no good saves, which I think is cool flavourwise, and I get a flat +4 with the foci, and the ability boon will eventually make will saves at least +7 as a good save

swordsage seems like a bit of a headache. how exactly do I know what lvl manouvres I can execute? it's a lot of stuff to handle, the rules in tome of battle.

thank you for your advice, it was very thorough, I really appreciate it

[Draz74]

Bummer about the Wisdom. :smallfrown:


whoops. unarmed damage and wis bonus to AC then from the monk's belt? why on earth does it cost 13000gp?
Because it can give a Cleric +9 AC. :smallwink:


I just expect to be an arcane caster at least part of the time, so had to plan for how to have him cast spells without arcane spell failure but not be completely easy to hit and kill. he's the beef of the team, so serves to sponge up most of the damage. (party is wizard4, psychic rogue 4, rogue1/fighter3) that's the primary reason I worry about his armor class.
Ah, that's the problem. Factotum/Chameleon isn't a very tank-ish build. Can't the Rogue/Fighter take over that part?

Regardless, AC isn't very important anymore at high levels.


that twilight property sounds interesting. what precisely does it do? how much does it cost? what book is it in?
It costs as much as a +1-enhancement to your armor. It lowers the armor's Arcane Spell Failure by 10%. (And mithral shirts only have 10% to begin with.)

It's in Magic Item Compendium. It's also in some older book, but I don't remember which one (Miniatures Handbook?).


swordsage seems like a bit of a headache. how exactly do I know what lvl manouvres I can execute? it's a lot of stuff to handle, the rules in tome of battle.

Tome of Battle is a lot of rules, yeah, but it's worth it IMO. It makes melee characters SO much more fun to play. And it's especially good when you're trying to make a non-melee build (like Chameleon) do OK in the front line of the party.

The highest level of maneuvers you can learn is determined the same way as the highest level of spells a Wizard can learn, except it uses Initiator Level instead of Caster Level. And all of your classes count for at least half when you're figuring out your Initiator Level. (So if you have a Factotum 8 / Chameleon 10, he has an Initiator Level of 9. Then a level of Swordsage will bring it up to Initiator Level 10, which means maneuvers up to Level 5.)

[begooler]

Battle Clarity is capped at your Warblade level. So a one-level dip in Warblade will only add 1 to your Reflex save. Meh. Your Reflex is better off dipping a class that actually has a good Reflex progression.


And... thanks for reminding me that I always gloss over this. If Venger wants to add his int to reflex, he's better off with the feat, as he mentioned.

A question for Venger: What do you intend on actually doing with this character? Chameleon/Factotums are very versatile. I would say your last few levels should be focused on boosting the aspects of the build you plan on using the most.
What might those be?

[Venger]

Bummer about the Wisdom. :smallfrown:


Because it can give a Cleric +9 AC. :smallwink:


Ah, that's the problem. Factotum/Chameleon isn't a very tank-ish build. Can't the Rogue/Fighter take over that part?

Regardless, AC isn't very important anymore at high levels.


It costs as much as a +1-enhancement to your armor. It lowers the armor's Arcane Spell Failure by 10%. (And mithral shirts only have 10% to begin with.)

It's in Magic Item Compendium. It's also in some older book, but I don't remember which one (Miniatures Handbook?).



Tome of Battle is a lot of rules, yeah, but it's worth it IMO. It makes melee characters SO much more fun to play. And it's especially good when you're trying to make a non-melee build (like Chameleon) do OK in the front line of the party.

The highest level of maneuvers you can learn is determined the same way as the highest level of spells a Wizard can learn, except it uses Initiator Level instead of Caster Level. And all of your classes count for at least half when you're figuring out your Initiator Level. (So if you have a Factotum 8 / Chameleon 10, he has an Initiator Level of 9. Then a level of Swordsage will bring it up to Initiator Level 10, which means maneuvers up to Level 5.)

well, see, the rogue/fighter is planning to enroll in dervish. he's dex based and not exactly very meaty, so that burden falls to poor marvin.

oo. twilight's very cool. I'll make that my first magic item, there isn't a ton on my wish list for the immediate future. my mithral chain shirt's already masterwork and everything :) thanks for the tip. it'll definitely last me till I can get the monks belt if I have money to burn, although given that the armor will be almost as good I may just skip it.

hm, okay. I will spend the time and research manoeuvres then. the only thing that throws me is that their names are all very similar and it is difficult for me to keep them straight. at least now I know that I am restricted to the disciplines that are swordsage 5 or lower.

thank you very much, that was what was throwing me.

[Venger]

And... thanks for reminding me that I always gloss over this. If Venger wants to add his int to reflex, he's better off with the feat, as he mentioned.

A question for Venger: What do you intend on actually doing with this character? Chameleon/Factotums are very versatile. I would say your last few levels should be focused on boosting the aspects of the build you plan on using the most.
What might those be?

well, I'm not 100% sure yet. like I said, Marvin is only lvl 4 right now. he is a factotum 4, his feats are font of inspiration 1 and knowledge devotion. I'm not sure what his specialization will be later on, exactly. thus far, when we will get into combat, the fighter and I will move into one side, I will gather all the attention from the enemy because I have the most health, and the fighter will flank, and attack with 2 weapon fighting w/ sneak attack damage.

meanwhile, the psychic rogue will hide and snipe (craven, able sniper, telling blow) with her gun or if an enemy is sufficiently weakened, move up and flank with her rapier for a bunch of damage.

the wizard will hang back and bomb with damage spells or buff the rogue with invisibility.

my factotum lvls give me two little spells a day and I chip in when I can, usually with grease or kelgore's fire bolt I am not sure exactly how my role in combat will shift when I get bona fide spellcasting, but I think the basic motions will be similar, except I'll be able to buff myself and the fighter and debuff the enemy myself and let the wizard retain more spells.

I also have some venemous snakes and plan to enjoy poison use during the low to mid lvls, since I know the dcs don't scale that well

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0

is that helpful? sorry I can't be more specific, but I don't know what my role in the party will be in 14 lvls. this is my best guess.

[Venger]

are there any suggestions for what arcane spells I should put in my spellbook?

the DM also said that he was allowing the use of 2 flaws. (I found out at the game saturday the others have apparently had flaws all along) which ones do you suggest?

[Laniius]

are there any suggestions for what arcane spells I should put in my spellbook?

the DM also said that he was allowing the use of 2 flaws. (I found out at the game saturday the others have apparently had flaws all along) which ones do you suggest?

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8750.0 <-- Chameleon handbook. Take a look at it. The Chameleon can add spells from ANY arcane spell list, and this guide shows quite a few spells that other classes get before the wizard.

[Venger]

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8750.0 <-- Chameleon handbook. Take a look at it. The Chameleon can add spells from ANY arcane spell list, and this guide shows quite a few spells that other classes get before the wizard.

wow! thanks very much.

that trapsmith class is ridiculous! gaseous form, haste, and dispel magic as 1st lvl spells? want! they're definitely going in my spellbook.

divine bard is wonderful too. can't wait to get 3rd lvl slots and be able to cast "dolorous blow." the DM let the psychic rogue have the stiletto variant on the dagger which deals pierce only and a crit range of 17-20. or with dolorous blow on, 13-20. with crit threats automatically confirming. activating craven. and telling blow. 40% of the time. for 1 minute/lvl.

can't wait to give the rogue the good news.

[Venger]

how is "mobile spellcaster" as far as feats go? it's from complete adventurer and requires 8 ranks in concentration, which marvin will meet next level, and allows the character to move up to his speed and then cast a spell all as a standard action.

to me, this seemed to synergize pretty well with "cunning surge", eventually allowing 2 moves and 2 standards actions in 1 turn for only 3 inspiration points

I was also thinking of ways to get around feat chains, for example, maybe taking "combat expertise" in order to unlock all the "improved" x, y, and z that come afterwards. I think they'e interesting, but very situational. would it be a prudent decision to have this as a feat? how useful would improved disarm, trip, and feint be to have available in the feat pool? is there anything else you can get with only combat expertise as a prerequisite?

is combat expertise a viable option for this character? I thought it might be worthwhile because he can use inspiration to beef up his attack and negate the penalty to attack while reaping a benefit for AC and possibly boosting AC a second time with another inspiration point for cunning defense. I know AC is irrelevant at higher levels, but for the moment (we're lvl 4 right now) it might be handy, especially since marvin doesn't have a good AC right now.

how would it be to take "sacred vow" ? it doesn't have any prerequisites, gives a +2 "perfection" bonus to diplomacy and it would allow me to take all of those funky situational "vow of x" feats. the cool thing would be that if he broke the vow, he could just change the feat to something else the next day and then get it back later if he wanted it, because the chameleon feat can be changed every 24 hours

do these make sense? would there be other feats that are more useful?

[NNescio]

I was also thinking of ways to get around feat chains, for example, maybe taking "combat expertise" in order to unlock all the "improved" x, y, and z that come afterwards. I think they'e interesting, but very situational. would it be a prudent decision to have this as a feat? how useful would improved disarm, trip, and feint be to have available in the feat pool? is there anything else you can get with only combat expertise as a prerequisite?

Combat expertise is generally not that useful, and the only "Improved x/y/z" feat worth taking is Improved Trip. While Improved Trip works great on tripping builds, it's less useful if you don't have a reach weapon.

Generally, for the Chameleon floating feat, you want something like Extra Spell (Get a new obscure spell [like the ones from the Bard list with a lower spell level], then scribe it into your spellbook), Extra Slot (Affects both your arcane and divine spells), Item Creation Feats (Need to craft wondrous items? Done. Need to scribe scrolls the next day? Done.), or Open Minded (Failed a 'once-per-level' Spellcraft check? Gain 5 skill points and retry).

[Venger]

Combat expertise is generally not that useful, and the only "Improved x/y/z" feat worth taking is Improved Trip. While Improved Trip works great on tripping builds, it's less useful if you don't have a reach weapon.

Generally, for the Chameleon floating feat, you want something like Extra Spell (Get a new obscure spell [like the ones from the Bard list with a lower spell level], then scribe it into your spellbook), Extra Slot (Affects both your arcane and divine spells), Item Creation Feats (Need to craft wondrous items? Done. Need to scribe scrolls the next day? Done.), or Open Minded (Failed a 'once-per-level' Spellcraft check? Gain 5 skill points and retry).

oh, okay. that's what I figured. I won't be able to make much use of combat expertise anyway since my base attack's sort of low. hm, ok. marvin's shaping up to be something of a gish at the moment, so I might try tripping later on, but I dunno about right now.

I'm pretty clear on what to use the free floating feat on (nice call on extra slot applying to arcane and divine, I didn't realise that, it's very clever)

I'm planning to make the psychic rogue a psyochactive skin of the chameleon as soon as I hit lvl 7.

oo, open minded is very good. thanks :)

I was asking more about my normal permanent feats (the one I'll get at lvl 6) what are some good choices for feat to have all the time, not just floating feats, although I'll welcome suggestions for those too

[NNescio]

oh, okay. that's what I figured. I won't be able to make much use of combat expertise anyway since my base attack's sort of low. hm, ok. marvin's shaping up to be something of a gish at the moment, so I might try tripping later on, but I dunno about right now.

I'm pretty clear on what to use the free floating feat on (nice call on extra slot applying to arcane and divine, I didn't realise that, it's very clever)

I'm planning to make the psychic rogue a psyochactive skin of the chameleon as soon as I hit lvl 7.

oo, open minded is very good. thanks :)

I was asking more about my normal permanent feats (the one I'll get at lvl 6) what are some good choices for feat to have all the time, not just floating feats, although I'll welcome suggestions for those too

Depends on what you plan to do. Font of Inspiration (taken at least 3 times) is generally useful, but sometimes certain feats are better if you intend to 'specialize'.

Actually, it's probably a good idea to take more Fonts of Inspiration, since you've already taken it once. Otherwise, it's kinda wasteful for only a single IP.

Knowledge Devotion is good, which you've already taken.

Imperious Command is also good, especially when combined with the skill trick Never Outnumbered, since you can ratchet up your skill modifiers easily.

Darkstalker is crucial if you intend to be a stealthy sort at higher levels, due to the improved senses of your opponents.

If you like poison, Master of Poison gives you Poison Use and the ability to apply poison as a swift poison. Powerful early on, but this gets prohibitively expensive at higher levels, barring some Minor/Major Creation shenanigans.

Obtain Familiar can also be worth a feat if you intend to pull off some familiar shenanigans. In any case, if you can get the Hummingbird familiar (it's from Dragon though), it's at least as good as Improved Initiative.

Again, Improved Trip is worthwhile if you plan to focus on tripping a bit, due to Brains over Brawn. The prerequisite is painful though.

As for the Chameleon, you may want to consider Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment later on, which can be (ab)used with Extra Slot (taken three times) in order to gain access to 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells.

[FMArthur]

As for the Chameleon, you may want to consider Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment later on, which can be (ab)used with Extra Slot (taken three times) in order to gain access to 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells.

Well, 7th and 8th level spells. Extra Slot can only give you spells one level below your highest. Something that gets you one level above your current highest combined with Sanctum Spell can get you above your normal level, like Earth Spell or Improved Sigil (Krau), but you can't apply the Sanctum metamagic to your Planar Touchstone spells. You could also skip straight to 9s with Talfirian Song and Sanctum Spell, but it dictates a little too much of your build.

[Venger]

Depends on what you plan to do. Font of Inspiration (taken at least 3 times) is generally useful, but sometimes certain feats are better if you intend to 'specialize'.

Actually, it's probably a good idea to take more Fonts of Inspiration, since you've already taken it once. Otherwise, it's kinda wasteful for only a single IP.

Knowledge Devotion is good, which you've already taken.

Imperious Command is also good, especially when combined with the skill trick Never Outnumbered, since you can ratchet up your skill modifiers easily.

Darkstalker is crucial if you intend to be a stealthy sort at higher levels, due to the improved senses of your opponents.

If you like poison, Master of Poison gives you Poison Use and the ability to apply poison as a swift poison. Powerful early on, but this gets prohibitively expensive at higher levels, barring some Minor/Major Creation shenanigans.

Obtain Familiar can also be worth a feat if you intend to pull off some familiar shenanigans. In any case, if you can get the Hummingbird familiar (it's from Dragon though), it's at least as good as Improved Initiative.

Again, Improved Trip is worthwhile if you plan to focus on tripping a bit, due to Brains over Brawn. The prerequisite is painful though.

As for the Chameleon, you may want to consider Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment later on, which can be (ab)used with Extra Slot (taken three times) in order to gain access to 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells.

I'll probably be taking font of inspiration a few more times

knowledge devotion's a lot of fun, especially since poor marvin doesn't roll very well on attacks

I know imperious command is mechanically useful, as is the intimidate skill but it just doesn't make much sense for the character who's a nebbishy con artist (specifically, I play marvin as swindle from transformers animated, a decipticon arms dealer portrayed by fred willard who cited ron popeil as the inspiration for his character)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Willard

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Popeil

while I do of course understand the rationale, I can't think of many things less intimidating than fred willard doing his ron popeil impersonation

darkstalker is an interesting feat, and I'll definitely keep it in mind for future builds, but marvin is never placed in the stealth roles, because I don't want to step on the rogue's toes, and he's generally the one drawing the fire from enemies rather than sneaking up on them

oh, I love poison, but I've found what I think is a funny way around it.

factoti have all class skills, so I've been maxing ranks in autohypnosis, which allows you to make an autohypnosis check against the fort DC of a poison. I ought to be good for the forseeable future.

minor creation shenanigans are definitely on marvin's agenda, although I'm a little wary of even calling them shenanigans. honestly, what on earth else will you do with a spell that makes a bunch of "nonliving vegetable matter" besides make a bunch of black lotus?

for the moment I've got a bunch of black adders that I'm milking. the DC's only 12, but I want to enjoy it at low levels while I can, since I haven't been able to track down components for better poisons just yet

familiar shenanigans? like what? I'm afraid I don't catch your meaning. I thought that familiars were usually denigrated as not being useful (I haven't played as a character with a familiar before, so can't personally speak for their usefulness one way or the other) aww, that sounds cute. where are the stats for it? it might be a cute idea for a chameleon free floating feat if nothing else. improved initiative could be fun (especially with stacked with nerveskitter, heehee)

I don't know if I plan on focusing on trip. for the time being, marvin is an awful lot stronger in melee than at range since he gets to add his strength to attack and damage with a greatsword and dump inspiration points onto damage.

how exactly do you mean "focus on tripping" is there some item or something that makes it better?

I've heard about planar touchstone. could you explain how it works? I don't have a copy of the planar handbook. does that mean it requires four feats?