Pounce and ranged attacks. [3.5]

[gomipile]

Reading the rules on Charge and Pounce, there is nothing that says one must attack the target you charged. Also, though Charge specifies a single melee attack, Pounce changes this to a full attack, but does not specify melee.

Thus, could one Charge, and then do an all-ranged full attack, against targets not necessarily including the target one charged?

[Keld Denar]

Charge indicates that your attack must be a melee attack.


Pounce
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.
It says you may make a full attack, but doesn't change the fact that your first attack must be a melee attack.

Now, if you charge and pounce someone with a melee weapon, and you have...say, Quickdraw and a quiver full of javelins, you could theoretically pounce someone, attack them with your melee weapon, and then draw and throw javelins at anyone else until you run out of attacks. Nothing says ALL of your attacks have to be vs the foe you charge. If there are multiple foes within reach of where you charge to, you could also attack them with melee attacks, so long as your first attack always goes toward the fool you charged at.

Plus, the wording on charging gets kinda awkward if you have a ranged weapon. You can't move at least 10' AND get to the square closest to where you started where you can attack your foe. If you have a long range weapon like a bow, chances are you are already within the range where you can attack your foe, and thus you can't move at least 10'. If you are using a short range thrown item, like a dagger, then the closest you can hit them is at the end of 5 range incriments, causing you to take a -10 on attack rolls (-8 after the charge mods). So...yea, thats assuming you ignore the melee attack clause, which you pretty much can't.

[gomipile]

Okay, so a Scout build with a 1-level dip in Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian and Quick Draw could do one melee attack and then whatever else in ranged, then.

[Forged Fury]

Plus, the wording on charging gets kinda awkward if you have a ranged weapon. You can't move at least 10' AND get to the square closest to where you started where you can attack your foe. If you have a long range weapon like a bow, chances are you are already within the range where you can attack your foe, and thus you can't move at least 10'. If you are using a short range thrown item, like a dagger, then the closest you can hit them is at the end of 5 range incriments, causing you to take a -10 on attack rolls (-8 after the charge mods). So...yea, thats assuming you ignore the melee attack clause, which you pretty much can't.
Isn't there a feat that sort of does Charge + Thrown Weapon where you have to move a certain distance and then get a bonus on attack or damage? I swear I read one somewhere...

[Keld Denar]

Neraph Throw, its in the Planar Handbook.

Also, Hurling Charge, or something like that. Forgot the source. Probably Complete Warrior or PHBII, but I don't feel like looking.

[Firechanter]

Or you can be a Bloodstorm Blade (4) and treat your ranged attacks as melee attacks. Also you don't need to multiclass into Barb, you can simply gain Pounce as a Tiger Claw maneuver.
Zoink, you can "charge" a few feet and then keep throwing your (automatically returning) weapon at your hapless victim from whatever range you can afford.

You only really need to close into melee distance if you want to use stuff like Leap Attack, which requires you to attack from a square where you _threaten_ your opponent.

[gomipile]

Neraph Throw, its in the Planar Handbook.

Also, Hurling Charge, or something like that. Forgot the source. Probably Complete Warrior or PHBII, but I don't feel like looking.

Neraph Throw removes the target's Dex bonus to AC once per target per encounter. That is about all it does.

[Forged Fury]

I was probably thinking about Hurling Charge, or whatever it's called.

I do like Neraph's Charge (at least as a racial feature of the Neraphim).

[Veyr]

Also you don't need to multiclass into Barb, you can simply gain Pounce as a Tiger Claw maneuver.
Having it as a Tiger Claw maneuver means at best you're using the ability once ever 2 rounds, which is hardly desirable.

[Firechanter]

For Practical Optimization, it may actually be more desirable than "Always-On" Pounce. Because by limiting your pouncing, you can also avoid to draw the DMs wrath and making him deny you the benefits of your charging skills most of the time. See the thread on "DMing for One-Trick Ponies" for details.

BTW, out of interest:
What other sources than Lion totem Barb are there to get Pounce?

[Keld Denar]

There's an app guide for that (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358)

EDIT: Please don't post in guides

[gomipile]

For Practical Optimization, it may actually be more desirable than "Always-On" Pounce. Because by limiting your pouncing, you can also avoid to draw the DMs wrath and making him deny you the benefits of your charging skills most of the time. See the thread on "DMing for One-Trick Ponies" for details.

BTW, out of interest:
What other sources than Lion totem Barb are there to get Pounce?

Lion's Charge and Psionic Lion’s Charge are the other two easiest ways I know. I think there's a few PrCs that can get it as well.

[Firechanter]

There's an app guide for that (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358)

EDIT: Please don't post in guides

Thanks for the link!

[Lord Bingo]

As a DM I would not allow a character(or any creature in my game) to declare a charge against an opponent and then commence using the additional attacks afforded by the ability to pounce to attack other targets than the one that was charged. Additionally, I would never allow pounce to be used with ranged attacks.
A Pounce is a sudden attack where an animal/a creature suddenly bursts/swoops upon its target/prey and grasp at it. It involves striking the target more or less simultaneously with all your attacks. I realize that this is not what the description of Pounce explicitly states but it does not make sense to think of pouncing in any other way.


PS. Hurling Charge is a Rage Power from Pathfinder that allows the barbarian to make a ranged attack with a thrown weapon as part of a charge provided he moves at least 10ft before and after he makes the ranged attack.

[Keld Denar]

There's plenty of examples in film and books where a warrior runs or jumps into a group of enemies, scything down a couple of them, and then throwing a knife at that one sneaky guy who was hiding behind some boxes ready to attack you.

Is it that hard to allow? Sounds freakin awesome if you ask me.

[Veyr]

I'm with Keld Danar on this. I'd totally allow a Pounce-thrower or Pounce-archer, the rules be damned.

[Pechvarry]

For the record, Hurling Charge is in Miniatures Handbook.

[Runestar]

Totally suboptimal, but I would allow it. Say you charged a foe, then used your remaining attacks to toss knives at the other enemies further away. Quite cinematic, if you ask me.

As a side note, has anyone realised that you can use whirlwind attack in place of a full attack when you pounce? :smallbiggrin:

[RagnaroksChosen]

Totally suboptimal, but I would allow it. Say you charged a foe, then used your remaining attacks to toss knives at the other enemies further away. Quite cinematic, if you ask me.

As a side note, has anyone realised that you can use whirlwind attack in place of a full attack when you pounce? :smallbiggrin:

Hmm if we can figure a way to get that pounce and some sort of flyng you could charge into the center of a group of enemies and whirlwind... that would be pritty sweet...