psionics newb

[hivedragon]

I keep hearing psion is better than the wilder
the psion gets way more powers known but he can only draw from one chosen discipline
this doesn't make any sense to me

[Psyren]

I keep hearing psion is better than the wilder
the psion gets way more powers known but he can only draw from one chosen discipline
this doesn't make any sense to me

It shouldn't - because that's not how it works at all :smallsmile:

There is a small list of discipline-specific powers, that only psions of that discipline can access. However, there is a much larger "general list" that all psions can draw from, regardless of discipline.

This second list of general powers is the ONLY list Wilders can draw from, without feats. Thus they have less choices than Psions, in addition to having less powers known.

See here (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/psionicPowerList.htm)

[Daftendirekt]

Think of Psion Disciplines kind of like Cleric Domains. All Psions have the main power list that they can pick from for what they know. But there are some powers that only a certain discipline can know (kind of like how Domains have their spell for each level that is separate from the rest of the cleric's list).

Now, you can get a power from a different discipline (or even a different class, like psychic warrior) with the Expanded Knowledge feat.

[hivedragon]

is there any reason to choose wilder instead of psion?

[Jair Barik]

Think of them as the Sorcerer of Psionics. They aren't bad but Psion is so much better than them. Funny thing is that the Anarchaic initiate (a Wilder 'based' PrC) is actually much easier to enter as a Psion due to its skill requirements.

[Psyren]

is there any reason to choose wilder instead of psion?

They make nice Thrallherds. You can get a huge Leadership score since you're Cha-focused, and depending on the thall(s) you choose (hint: make one an Erudite) you can easily cover for the lack of powers known.

Other than that... not really. They're pretty weak and Wild Surge, while awesome, has a great deal of pesky drawbacks. You can be a powerful blaster, but so can a psion, and he learns better powers more quickly than you do to boot.

Pathfinder is another story though - you get great options, 50% more feats, and a warlocky at-will blast. Psions still have the clear edge but the gap is smaller.


Think of them as the Sorcerer of Psionics. They aren't bad but Psion is so much better than them. Funny thing is that the Anarchaic initiate (a Wilder 'based' PrC) is actually much easier to enter as a Psion due to its skill requirements.

They're closer to the Warmage of psionics if you ask me. Their relative lack of versatility isn't crippling, but it is a definite problem.

[Jair Barik]

The brilliant thing is that by RAW Psions can get all the benefits of Wild Surge from Anarchaic Initiate without the drawback of Enervation (as the damage dealt by it is based on your Wilder level)

Of course finding a GM who allows such horrible abuse of a wording like that would be very hard.

[Keld Denar]

Psionics is easy, so long as you follow these three rules.

Rule 1 of Psionics: Thou shalt never spend more PP on a power than thou has manifester levels.

Rule 2 of Psionics: THOU SHALT NEVER SPEND MORE PP ON A POWER THAN THOU HAS MANIFESTER LEVELS!

Rule3 of Psionics: Have fun!

[Shade Kerrin]

is there any reason to choose wilder instead of psion?

Well the way I see it, like the Sorc a Wilder will fare you better if you have an extremely specific idea in mind, otherwise forget about it.

[Jair Barik]

Psionics is easy, so long as you follow these three rules.

Rule 1 of Psionics: Thou shalt never spend more PP on a power than thou has manifester levels.

Rule 2 of Psionics: THOU SHALT NEVER SPEND MORE PP ON A POWER THAN THOU HAS MANIFESTER LEVELS!

Rule3 of Psionics: Have fun!

But split ray disintigrate is so much fun :smallbiggrin:

[HunterOfJello]

Well the way I see it, like the Sorc a Wilder will fare you better if you have an extremely specific idea in mind, otherwise forget about it.

More like making a Battle Sorcerer. Yes, the extra hp and bab are nice, but losing out on your spells/powers is really harsh.


They're closer to the Warmage of psionics if you ask me. Their relative lack of versatility isn't crippling, but it is a definite problem.

I'm going to use this in the future. They are a lot like Warmages with a smaller list of abilities.

[sonofzeal]

Wilder has better HD, skills, class features, armor proficiency, and BAB. That last one is relevant at low/mid levels, since there's some solid powers that require attack rolls, such as Crystal Shard. At high levels it doesn't matter so much, but at low-mid it makes Wilders a much better choice for them.

Wilders only really suffer because the occupy a semi-awkward space between PsiWar and Psion. They're more warrior-y than Psions and more mage-y than PsiWars, and the result falls somewhat short of "best of both words" but isn't exactly bad.

If you want a mage, you probably want Psion. If you want a gish, you probably want PsiWar. But Wilder has enough to recommend it over either class that it's in no way a bad class. It's just left without a niche.

[gomipile]

Educated Wilder is pretty good, as they have more powers to choose from.

[Tavar]

But Wilder has enough to recommend it over either class that it's in no way a bad class. It's just left without a niche.

My one real greivance is that it has such a small list. Eleven powers known at level 20. That's worse than both the Psychic Warrior and Psion. Just a few more powers would make it much more attractive.

[hivedragon]

If you want a mage, you probably want Psion. If you want a gish, you probably want PsiWar.

I think psion/slayer looks like a better gish than psiwarrior


Educated Wilder is pretty good, as they have more powers to choose from.

what is an "educated wilder"?

[sonofzeal]

My one real greivance is that it has such a small list. Eleven powers known at level 20. That's worse than both the Psychic Warrior and Psion. Just a few more powers would make it much more attractive.
The Wilder is intended to rely on powers less than a Psion does. With better hp, proficiencies, BAB, skills, etc, etc, etc, the Wilder is not so power-dependent and can survive a bit longer without needing active defences up, and can contribute more on turns when they don't manifest. Yet they have the same depth of pp-pool as the Psion.

I think the Wilder really is intended to be a blaster. It's not that they're much better better at blasting than the Psion, it's that they can better-afford to spend their pp and actions on it, and it requires less powers. One or two blasty powers, augmented to appropriate levels, are all that's really needed there. The Psion has to use pp to cover all his bases; the Wilder can chill with the Rogue until it's time to let loose.

Psions are better blasters than Wizards, because Psionic blasting powers are generally superior and stay relevant at all levels. And Wilders are better blasters than Psions, because if you're going to be dumping your pp there anyway, you may as well enjoy 3/4 BAB, d6 HD, 4+int skills, and actual class features.

That said, I prefer Psions. They're classier, and I find them more fun to play. But Wilders don't really need as many powers. They have enough other advantages; powers known, and a natural discipline, are the only reasons left to take Psion.


I think psion/slayer looks like a better gish than psiwarrior
You can only enter Slayer at 8th, and it only starts to pay off significantly at 12th. Since no Psi power to my knowledge boosts BAB, you end up a fair degree behind. PsiWars also have a large pool of unique and gishy powers that the Psion/Slayer would have to hemorrhage feats for, on top of the wasted Track feat. The PsiWar avoids feat taxes and gets more bonus feats, which can be Fighter Bonus Feats - including Martial Study and Martial Stance.

A Psion/Slayer can certainly gish it up if necessary, but PsiWar is quite effective at it. Don't discount them.

[Psyren]

Educated Wilder is pretty good, as they have more powers to choose from.

Not only that, but they give up their most useless class feature for the privilege (Volatile Mind.) And, handily, the powers come in the form of free EK feats, meaning you can use Psyreform to rearrange them into higher-level powers once you've advanced enough.

The one negative for EW is that you have to stay a base wilder to get them.

[classy one]

I think the wilder is one of the most misunderstood classes around.
First, they are more similar to a psionic barbarian and psions are more similar to a sorc.
Second, they are Gish not full casters. Surging euphoria gives them a decent boost to attack and attack.

Third, they may have less powers than a psion but have more ML and more effective PP than any psionic class. This is because wild surge provides free PP with each use.

Forth, wild surge is just plain better than overchannel 70-95 percent of the time and can boost ML to much higher levels. Even at +6, wild surge only has a 30% chance of dazing you. Overchannel can only boost ML to +3 at level 15 and a squishy psion will have to waste a turn using vigor 100% of the time to safely use it.

Fifth, a wilder is a better a blaster. Since most psionic powers are augmentable, you don't even really need that many powers to begin with. What does a psion blaster really benefit from more selection of blasty powers when all of them can select element on the fly and augment with ML? Other than range and added effect (like stun or blindness)? Not too much. A psionic blaster just needs 1-2 blaster higher level powers to be effective.
If you do your research a wilder is the only full manifesting class you need. The trick is to spam Psyreform and take the educated ACF. Or even better would be to get a permenant tattoo of Psyreform and save yourself the XP. Now you have all the powers of a psion with wild surge. Unconditional power with temporal acceleration (possible since wild surge boosts the ML and pays for the PP on the metapsi feat) is the standard "get out of daze" trick" but others like swift recovery work just as well.

People often look at wild surge and think "chance to lose turn" but forget that overchannel is a 100% chance to lose it. Unless the psion doesn't mind taking d8's worth of damage each time or is satisfied with lower ML that is.

[Yora]

I see wilders as fantasy X-Men. Only a small number of powers, but they use them for everything, they use them extremely effectively, and they are not squishy wizards.
They don't replace arcane or divine spellcasters, except for possibly blasters.

[FMArthur]

I wouldn't consider the Psion to be like a Wizard - it's definitely more of a Sorceror. If you really want to draw psionic:spellcaster comparisons, I think the better way to put it something like...

Psion:Sorceror
Wilder:Warlock
Erudite:Wizard

Tangental comparisons because I'm bored...
Ardent:Cleric
Lurk:Ninja
Divine Mind:Dragon Shaman
Psychic Rogue:Spellthief
Psychic Warrior:Mystic Ranger
Soulknife:Monk