So three God's make a bet...

[randomhero00]

Each is the pinnacle of a mental attribute. One for wisdom, for charisma, and intelligence. They each think there's is best, so they decided to pick 3 commoners (not heroes) from around the land. Each separated by at least 200 miles. Keep in mind they are still level 1 commoners. And maybe one level of expert.

Oh, and btw they must kill each other, there can be only one. And they know this part of the rule.

So basically they give a commoner ~+40 something in a mental attribute.

Who would win in your eyes?

My vote is the charismatic one. He be the king of entire lands within a couple months. He then sends out platoons to kill the others before they've had time to grow in power. So the question is, if the other two will gain enough power, or perhaps ally with each other, before the platoons reach them?

[golentan]

I'm not sure it's so clear cut. Intelligence guy could figure that out and lie in wait with a trap anywhere for charisma guy to gather such a following. And wisdom guy is impossible to surprise and can raise truly massive amounts of cash to infuse into his plots.

My general inclination is to say Int wins, but I have to admit it's a tossup depending on circumstances and the specifics of strategy.

[AslanCross]

My vote is on Wisdom. Int guy can plan well, but he does not necessarily have the ability to raise the resources needed. Cha guy can get a lot of resources, but does not necessarily have a plan. Wis guy might prove to be the most adaptable and can "read" into the situations of the others. At the very least, he could survive.

At least, that's how an archetypical children's story might go. Book smarts and smart looks are often overcome by simple wisdom.

[Pink]

At first thought, I figured this would be three equal but opposite forces, each having benefits as such that it'd be a tie. But then I began to think. The winner would be Charisma.

Simply put, asides from forming and army and what not, Cha will go to both Wis and Int and form an alliance with them and with his high Cha, instantly become their best friend. He'll tell them that they need to deal with the third party first, and basically play them off on each other until he can take both out in a moment of weakness.

Even if Wis can sense his motive, a possibility, Int will be hopelessly in his hand, and Int's lack of Wis will easily lead him into a backstab position as soon as both of them have finished off Wis.

[Treblain]

Charisma. Handle Animal. Horde of animals tramples the other two.

[Human Paragon 3]

At least, that's how an archetypical children's story might go. Book smarts and smart looks are often overcome by simple wisdom.

I like that.

[golentan]

Charisma. Handle Animal. Horde of animals tramples the other two.

Trained only. Unless Charisma Guy already has ranks in it, he's unlikely to be able to pull that one off.

[arkol]

At first thought, I figured this would be three equal but opposite forces, each having benefits as such that it'd be a tie. But then I began to think. The winner would be Charisma.

Simply put, asides from forming and army and what not, Cha will go to both Wis and Int and form an alliance with them and with his high Cha, instantly become their best friend. He'll tell them that they need to deal with the third party first, and basically play them off on each other until he can take both out in a moment of weakness.

Even if Wis can sense his motive, a possibility, Int will be hopelessly in his hand, and Int's lack of Wis will easily lead him into a backstab position as soon as both of them have finished off Wis.

Cha guy doesn't have the Int to realize that such a solution would actually work.

[Talyn]

True, but Handle Animal is on the Commoner skill list, and is, in fact, a pretty common skill for a rural commoner to have at least 1 to 2 points in. The vast majority of the commoners in the typical campaign world live outside of cities, and farm or hunt for their food, after all.

[Pink]

Cha guy doesn't have the Int to realize that such a solution would actually work.

He befriends someone with the Int to come up with the plan then. Though I don't accept that just because he's been given a boost to his Cha that makes him stupid. It was my first thought within a couple minutes thought and I wouldn't say I'm much more than average for intelligence.

[Dead_Jester]

It depends on ressources available to each;

If the Cha guy can get a huge amount of minions, then he's pretty much golden, unless the Int guy makes a really smart trap/plan to kill him.

If the Int guy has enough time and raw material, he can probably make something ridiculous (natural 20s in a trained craft skill with skill focus do rack up in the end) or devise a plan that could take care of the Cha guy. However, the Wis guy is unlikely to be caught by such a plan, unless it is completely inevitable.

The Wis guy would have a hard time defeating the others, but he's the best one for surviving the others, so he could probably outlast them until he finds a chink in their respective armors (goons and tech/gear).

[golentan]

True, but Handle Animal is on the Commoner skill list, and is, in fact, a pretty common skill for a rural commoner to have at least 1 to 2 points in. The vast majority of the commoners in the typical campaign world live outside of cities, and farm or hunt for their food, after all.

Yes, but the more rural a place is, the less access there is to the things which give a Cha guy real strength (like, say, high level casters to be persuaded).

On deeper reflection, I've got to give this one to wisdom guy. Not only does he have massive funds (through profession and gambling checks), the ability to anticipate all kinds of crazy stuff (or notice it before it can happen), but he also has a trump card over the others in another way: Will Save or Sucks fail against him. He can afford to hire a caster to go after the others, and can better resist his foes doing the same, all while hiding out in the boonies and evading the enemy with survival, including resisting scry attempts to locate him.

[Tanuki Tales]

The Wisdom Commoner is making a minimum of 46 Gold a month (50 Wis + 1 Rank in Profession + Rolling 2). If the Int Guy or Cha guy can't find and squash him fast he'll end up with enough gold to be able to hire high level adventurers or buy the items to kill them dead.

[golentan]

It's more than that. If I remember right, there's rules for gambling which are basically "make a wisdom check, earn/lose x times your stake." Even with a one, our wisdom commoner can easily make many times his initial investment. As long as he doesn't hit any place too hard, he'll be raking in well more than his profession skill indicates.

I can't seem to track them down though. I thought they were in one of the complete books, but I can't find the sidebar. Anyone have confirmation/denial of my memory? Aargh, I hate my mind.

[rayne_dragon]

Given the premise that three gods who are the pinnacle of their mental attribute are making a bet I would have to say that Wisdom has to win. It would be foolish to take a bet you were not likely to win, so since a Deity who is a pinnacle of wisdom wouldn't take a bet unless they were going to win, they have to win.

[NichG]

I'd say the three would get together and realize what a shoddy deal the thing is. Charisma might be the holdout, since neither Wisdom nor Intelligence would have the means to convince him.

After all, the rule is that they must kill eachother. It doesn't say when.

Result: Intelligence is made into a necropolitan by one of the others (part of the process of this involves dying after all), and Wisdom agrees to let Charisma kill him when he's on his deathbed from old age anyhow having lived a full life. Or something along those lines.

[randomhero00]

Given the premise that three gods who are the pinnacle of their mental attribute are making a bet I would have to say that Wisdom has to win. It would be foolish to take a bet you were not likely to win, so since a Deity who is a pinnacle of wisdom wouldn't take a bet unless they were going to win, they have to win.

Ah but from defeat we learn a new way that something doesn't work young padawan :D

edit in other words the god of wisdom has never seen a plain commoner with the mind of a god before. Therefor he seeks this bet to further gain his wisdom. As for this situation to happen any other way is almost impossible.

The charisma god just having a good time and the god of intellect is finding entertainment in there actions, seeing how far ahead he can predict by logic.

[Blue Ghost]

The hardest part would probably be finding the other targets. The one who succeeds in lying low for the longest stands the best chance of winning. I think the one who stands the best chance of doing that is Wisdom.

[Kurald Galain]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6e/Ozymandiascomics.jpg
This guy wins.

[druid91]

Wisdom. He is the old guy in the tavern giving quests after all.

[chaos_redefined]

Int guy will win, or it will become a tie.

When Cha guy or Wis guy try to make their move against Int guy, Int god will intervene and kill Wis or Cha guy. Lightning bolt to the face or whatever. By the rules, they must kill each other, but Int god has made this impossible, so it becomes a no-contest. Cha and Wis guys aren't smart enough to piece that plan together.

What? At no stage in the rules did it say that the gods can't intervene.

[druid91]

Int guy will win, or it will become a tie.

When Cha guy or Wis guy try to make their move against Int guy, Int god will intervene and kill Wis or Cha guy. Lightning bolt to the face or whatever. By the rules, they must kill each other, but Int god has made this impossible, so it becomes a no-contest. Cha and Wis guys aren't smart enough to piece that plan together.

What? At no stage in the rules did it say that the gods can't intervene.

At which point Wis god has foreseen this and stopped the attack. Then Char god gets him to settle down.

[Kaun]

I dont think chr guy would win because his abilities rely to much on others. Yes he can befriend others to do his planing and strat's for him but it is unlikely that he will be able to find people with either enough int or wis to out think his two opponents.

Seeing as how wisdom is built on experiance and perception if inteligence guy can come up with plans far enough outside the box he will likely catch wisdom off guard.

I think the final winner will come down too time, the longer things go on the more chance of int guy making a mistake that wisdom guy can exploit.

[TheCoelacanth]

I think it depends too much on the circumstances. For example, if Int guy happens to have even one rank in knowledge(religion) the whole thing takes basically however long it takes him to say "Pazuzu" three times. Or if Cha guy has a rank in Handle Animal he could finish off the others pretty easily.

[Tyndmyr]

I like it. It'll play out interestingly.

My bet...int wins. Suddenly becoming a genius allows you to go for MORE power very efficiently. He realizes that these adventuring types are pretty powerful. He figures out how to gain said power and level up. A 50+ int score makes for a pretty awesome wizard. Or factotum.

Int guy will also get a ridiculous amount of skill points when he levels, so anything involving...skills is quickly going to be a win for him. They'll all be trained, and anything int based is fantastic. If he's human, a dip into human paragon gets him enough class skills to essentially ignore cross class limitations. If factotum, this is not a concern. He simply learns everything.

[Cerlis]

Charisma is Divine Favor*. The God of Charisma is the most powerful then, since he embodies Godlyhood. thus his champion must be the strongest.


taken in the context of the system this is just spam, but it was an original answer so i went for it.

*edited to avoid unnecessary Google searches. I believe the word Charisma is taken directly from the idea of a Charismatic leader. they are so forceful and sure( charm wasnt necessarily it since strong willed uncharming people where charismatic) that it seemed as if God (or the gods) themselves empowered and backed him. The idea of Charisma as the force of personality is based off the idea of people who change opponents into friends and empower the people through the divinity they channel from their patron.

[MightyPirate]

So Dr. Doom, Kingpin, and the Red Skull walk into a bar . . .


I'd say the three would get together and realize what a shoddy deal the thing is. Charisma might be the holdout, since neither Wisdom nor Intelligence would have the means to convince him.

After all, the rule is that they must kill eachother. It doesn't say when.

Result: Intelligence is made into a necropolitan by one of the others (part of the process of this involves dying after all), and Wisdom agrees to let Charisma kill him when he's on his deathbed from old age anyhow having lived a full life. Or something along those lines.

This could work but I think it's far more likely that the result would be something like this:

Wisdom Master realizes that they're only being forced to kill each other on the whims of the gods. He points this out to the other two and suggests that they preempt their would-be puppet masters and kill the gods first. Charisma Master concocts an elaborate ruse to make it look like the "champions" are really dueling as intended. Intelligence Master pieces together a plan to destroy the gods themselves. The three pool their resources and eventually succeed in slaying the gods themselves.

The masters of each attribute would then assume the positions of the gods themselves. Eons pass . . . the new gods get bored until they notice three commoners just minding their own business and . . .

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

I say the Cha guy wins. Because the Wis guy will buy a True Resurrection upon death item and when the Int guy springs his trap to kill him he is brought back to life. But since the Int guy doesn't have another trap he gets killed by the Wis guy leaving the Cha guy as the only one who didn't die. Because he was off elsewhere building an army or seducing women at the local bar to kill the others with poison.

EDIT: But other than that I would say Wis guy takes the cake.

[Tyndmyr]

So Dr. Doom, Kingpin, and the Red Skull walk into a bar . . .



This could work but I think it's far more likely that the result would be something like this:

Wisdom Master realizes that they're only being forced to kill each other on the whims of the gods. He points this out to the other two and suggests that they preempt their would-be puppet masters and kill the gods first. Charisma Master concocts an elaborate ruse to make it look like the "champions" are really dueling as intended. Intelligence Master pieces together a plan to destroy the gods themselves. The three pool their resources and eventually succeed in slaying the gods themselves.

The masters of each attribute would then assume the positions of the gods themselves. Eons pass . . . the new gods get bored until they notice three commoners just minding their own business and . . .

I like it, it's elegant.

[Shpadoinkle]

My vote is on Wisdom. Int guy can plan well, but he does not necessarily have the ability to raise the resources needed. Cha guy can get a lot of resources, but does not necessarily have a plan. Wis guy might prove to be the most adaptable and can "read" into the situations of the others. At the very least, he could survive.


But the Charisma guy could talk a bunch of smart people into thinking for him. All the best minds in the land (barring Intelligence guy and Wisdom guy) working together should be able to come up with something pretty solid.

If they're given any prep time before meeting each other at all, I'd bet on Charisma guy winning the vast majority of scenarios due to the sheer amount of manpower he can bring to bear against the other two. Which isn't to say the other guys couldn't do something similar or plan to fight them off or escape or whatever, but Charisma guy is going to have a VERY easy time getting a LOT of people on his side, some of them very talented. Sheer numbers and versatility give him an enormous advantage.

[Tyndmyr]

Well, a +20 to diplomacy isn't anything to sniff at...but the DC to get indifferent people to helpful is a 30, and it goes up from there.

It'll take him a bit to get going.

[Garwain]

INT, because he is the only one smart enough to still act like a commoner. The others are gaining power and wealth, making them easy to find.

So he grabs a donkey, rides towards the WIS guy and whacks him with a stick. The CHA guy cannot scry and doesn't know what's going on, so has to spend his efforts scanning the whole place. And then all the sudden he gets stickwacked as well.

[Shpadoinkle]

The CHA guy cannot scry

He doesn't have to. He can talk somebody into doing it for him.

[grimbold]

in my opinion INT guy would be able to raise money through sheer manipulation and then use it to enact a plan
thus INT guy would win

[Shpadoinkle]

in my opinion INT guy would be able to raise money through sheer manipulation and then use it to enact a plan
thus INT guy would win

My main problem with arguments like this are that the CHA guy could easily talk other people into doing the same thing for him. Granted the odds of another character with 50ish INT or WIS being in the area are practically nonexistent, but he can talk a few dozen guys with 15 INT into working together for him, which definitely isn't something to discount.

The CHA guy could talk other people into raising money for him (delegating control of the operation to someone with good managerial skills,) and while they're doing that he can focus on another plan.

[Shadowleaf]

INT guy would probably win, as he would be able to figure out the most likely plans for the other two to follow, and then ward himself against them.
We're talking a guy with 48+ int here. That's divine level intelligence, I'm sure he'd be able to figure out the most likely plan to come out of another commoner given the means INT guy knows they possess.

Given his divine-level intelligence, he'd probably be able to predict where CHA-guy would put his castle, where the architect would place the throne room, and then be able to build a catapult which fires one rock directly into the throne.


It's 48+ int. Us mere mortals have no insight in how such a being would think.

[Haarkla]

Each is the pinnacle of a mental attribute. One for wisdom, for charisma, and intelligence. They each think there's is best, so they decided to pick 3 commoners (not heroes) from around the land. Each separated by at least 200 miles. Keep in mind they are still level 1 commoners. And maybe one level of expert.

Oh, and btw they must kill each other, there can be only one. And they know this part of the rule.

So basically they give a commoner ~+40 something in a mental attribute.

Who would win in your eyes?
I dont know why guys with 50 Int or Wis would participate is such a game.

The Wisdom guy could win. He would join an adventuring party and become a Commoner 1/Druid 1 or Commoner 1/Monk 1, and kill the others, if he were so inclined.

[randomhero00]

I dont know why guys with 50 Int or Wis would participate is such a game.


Its a battle royale situation. If they are all still alive in 10 years then they all die a horrible painful death, or something like that. Its part of the deal of receiving such a mighty gift.

[flabort]

I say int.
Why? Skill points, not stat bonus to skills (although that, too).
He gets skill points based on int. ~+40 int is ~+20 skill points, then x4 for first level. He's probably got 4 (max ranks) in every skill, including all the variant knowledge/craft skills, and still got skill points left over for a crazy amount of skill tricks. And he's got his bonus to int based skills on top of that.
This leaves him able to do so many things that cha and wis only dream of being able to do, even in their own skills.
He's probably still got skill points left over after all that, too. He could just kill the other two by overload.

[randomhero00]

I say int.
Why? Skill points, not stat bonus to skills (although that, too).
He gets skill points based on int. ~+40 int is ~+20 skill points, then x4 for first level. He's probably got 4 (max ranks) in every skill, including all the variant knowledge/craft skills, and still got skill points left over for a crazy amount of skill tricks. And he's got his bonus to int based skills on top of that.
This leaves him able to do so many things that cha and wis only dream of being able to do, even in their own skills.
He's probably still got skill points left over after all that, too. He could just kill the other two by overload.

Since he's maxed at 4, only the int/knowledge skills would be of any real use. I think he'd be ahead in the beginning but having 24 ranks in dungeneering isn't going to help him much. So, I'd say int guy would pull ahead at first, but I think cha guy, being able to inspire kingdoms and armies to fight for him, would win.

[Tyndmyr]

He could go Factotum. This entirely solves the "only 4 ranks of everything" limitation, as he can further boost his skills via his class features.

And having ridiculous int as a factotum is win.

[randomhero00]

He could go Factotum. This entirely solves the "only 4 ranks of everything" limitation, as he can further boost his skills via his class features.

And having ridiculous int as a factotum is win.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. They are commoners. And can only stay that way. Best they can hope for is a few levels in expert.

The gods decided a commoner would be the least biased since they start with almost nothing and don't have hero skills to back them up.

[Kaww]

INT, because he is the only one smart enough to still act like a commoner. The others are gaining power and wealth, making them easy to find.

So he grabs a donkey, rides towards the WIS guy and whacks him with a stick. The CHA guy cannot scry and doesn't know what's going on, so has to spend his efforts scanning the whole place. And then all the sudden he gets stickwacked as well.

I think this is wisdom, not intelligence. Might be wrong tho...

[faceroll]

INT, because he is the only one smart enough to still act like a commoner. The others are gaining power and wealth, making them easy to find.

That seems more like a wis than an int thing to me.


in my opinion INT guy would be able to raise money through sheer manipulation and then use it to enact a plan
thus INT guy would win

Int guy has no way to manipulate anyone. Manipulation skills are all cha.


INT guy would probably win, as he would be able to figure out the most likely plans for the other two to follow, and then ward himself against them.
We're talking a guy with 48+ int here. That's divine level intelligence, I'm sure he'd be able to figure out the most likely plan to come out of another commoner given the means INT guy knows they possess.

Given his divine-level intelligence, he'd probably be able to predict where CHA-guy would put his castle, where the architect would place the throne room, and then be able to build a catapult which fires one rock directly into the throne.


It's 48+ int. Us mere mortals have no insight in how such a being would think.

Cassandra could see the future, but she couldn't do anything about it. Int guy could deduce how he was going to die, but he would have difficulty acquiring the means that cha guy could get.

[Tyndmyr]

Int guy has no way to manipulate anyone. Manipulation skills are all cha.

Not entirely true. Ridiculous amounts of skill points count for a lot. Commoner and expert only is harsh...Not even human paragon?

But still, int guy can use his suddenly ridiculous craft checks to make a pretty good amount of money. As a level 1, he gets a solid +24 with no optimization at all. This gives him a 34 when he takes ten, allowing him to speed complex/superior/masterwork items for 102 gold worth of crafting per week. Minus materials, he's sitting at 68 gp profit.

You can manipulate people with money. Sure, he'll be behind the charisma dude on followers, but he'll actually be able to afford animals to use with handle animal in short order, and he'll be able to kit himself out with masterwork gear soon enough. He should be able to get started on adventuring properly in a fairly safe and survivable fashion.

[Noneoyabizzness]

chr guy

he may not be snmmart but may be smart enough to ask for advice,

[OneCalledBlue]

WIS guy uses the DMG 181 Rules for running a business.
He starts with his farm, then next makes a university (full of wizards) and then a Fighting school (full of warriors) and takes it from there.

Because WIS god is not stupid WIS guy is dedicated to the forces of good and already has a decent INT and CHA. Using his wealth WIS GUY earns the Saint Template (BoED) by doing super good heartfelt deeds. He then also gets every spell he can permanently cast on himself.

Then taking his army of low level wizards he goes and charms CHA guys people from him and easily slays CHA guy.

Then he turns about and utterly crushes INT guy into the floor.

Because INT guy might know a lot and be able to make traps and all, but his resources are much more limited. CHA guy takes some time to get a good enough diplomacy/handle animal to get and keep everyone under control.
CHA is the biggest risk though.

There is something CHA guy can do however.
Sell his soul to a devil (Fiendish Codex II, faustian pacts), but negotiate some extra points (due to awesome bluff of awesomeness). Get 3 bonus feats at first level.
Use them to get the Magical Training feat, Corrupt Arcana and Skill Knowledge (UMD).

Raise money using untrained Perform checks and purchase scrolls with Sorcerer/Wizard and corrupt spells on them.

kekekkeke

[Corrik]

INT guy invents a time machine and goes back to kill the other 2 while they are babies. Or he makes the iron man armor or some other ridiculous piece of technology. 40+ INT would make him stupidly smart.

[flabort]

Isn't Craft Int based?
Yeah, he could build almost anything, but unfortunately without "craft wondrous item" and spell casting, he can't make anything magic.
And since 3.5 deals with time-machines and iron-man suits as magic items...
Still, he'd still be able to craft a few thousand masterwork weapons each day, or whatever, and armor, and be able to sell enough to hire a wizard to enchant the rest.
And I repeat he's got max ranks (4, but...) in all skills, and limitless skill tricks. Those would let him survive long enough to get levels in expert, and boost his skill points even higher.

[Kalirren]

If CHA wins it's because they were the only one to be able to convince anyone else they weren't bat**** crazy.

If WIS wins it's because they accrued a lot of trust.

If INT wins it's because they knew where to find the others first.

[Corrik]

Isn't Craft Int based?
Yeah, he could build almost anything, but unfortunately without "craft wondrous item" and spell casting, he can't make anything magic.
And since 3.5 deals with time-machines and iron-man suits as magic items...
Still, he'd still be able to craft a few thousand masterwork weapons each day, or whatever, and armor, and be able to sell enough to hire a wizard to enchant the rest.
And I repeat he's got max ranks (4, but...) in all skills, and limitless skill tricks. Those would let him survive long enough to get levels in expert, and boost his skill points even higher.


No, 3.5 deals with magic items as magic items and we as players merely use magic items to replicate things such as time machines and ironman armor. But if he had that high of an INT than he could simply make them the "mundane" way. Even if you say no to the more highly advanced tech, he could invent something simple(such as gunpowder or plastic) and take it to the king to be granted protection and resources so that he could build up to bigger and better inventions.

Or frankly if you want to get right down to it, with that high of an INT in D&D is considered cosmic intelligence. With that sort of understanding he could merely do a few calculations and set into motion a chain of events that leads to the death of the other two. Leave a coin here so a soldier picks it up causing him to be too late to stop robber b from killing commoner c which...and so on and so forth.

[Darth Stabber]

Charisma guy can bluff so well that if he told people they were dead they would likely believe it. Charisma guy tells int guy that wis guy already killed cha guy. Int guy believes it, ignores cha guy. Int guy focuses all his efforts on wis guy, wis guy's resources are split between int and cha, meaning that int guy will be at a huge advantage against wis. Int guy kills wis, and thinks he won, at which point cha guy proceeds to back stab the crap out out of him.

[Corrik]

Well first off that argument assumes that CHA guy somehow found INT guy and that INT guy wouldn't just attack him when CHA came up to him. Also that INT guy wouldn't have seen that coming and refuse to believe him no matter how believable CHA's story is.

Secondly you are highly overestimating CHA guy's bluff skills. There are potions that give higher modifiers to bluff than his CHA modifier to bluff.

[Darth Stabber]

Well first off that argument assumes that CHA guy somehow found INT guy and that INT guy wouldn't just attack him when CHA came up to him. Also that INT guy wouldn't have seen that coming and refuse to believe him no matter how believable CHA's story is.

Secondly you are highly overestimating CHA guy's bluff skills. There are potions that give higher modifiers to bluff than his CHA modifier to bluff.

And he could afford them after a few untrained perform checks. Int guy makes money on crafting, Wis guy on proffession, Cha guy on perform (and animal husbandry).

And Cha guy can buy 1 rank in UMD, and use nearly anything, with almost no risk.

Besided disguise is CHA based. So he dresses up like a woman (easily makes check), and since INT guy is looking for a Cha guy, CHARISMATIC TRANSVESTITE WINS!!! (since he can now safely tell int guy "Charisma guy is dead", and he won't be attacked on sight)

[jvluso]

All three can gain a huge number of resources:

profession is WIS based an can be used to make money
craft is INT based and states that it can be used the same way as profession
perform is CHA based and also can be used as profession

If they have other ways to make money or other useful resources faster, they will use that and have a significant advantage

[Corrik]

And he could afford them after a few untrained perform checks. Int guy makes money on crafting, Wis guy on proffession, Cha guy on perform (and animal husbandry).

And Cha guy can buy 1 rank in UMD, and use nearly anything, with almost no risk.

Besided disguise is CHA based. So he dresses up like a woman (easily makes check), and since INT guy is looking for a Cha guy, CHARISMATIC TRANSVESTITE WINS!!! (since he can now safely tell int guy "Charisma guy is dead", and he won't be attacked on sight)

The issue is that you are only looking at it in terms of modifiers and skill checks. You need to look at it in terms of what having stats that high means. The INT guy isn't just someone who has a +15 to craft checks. The INT guy has an understanding of the fabric and workings of the universe to a degree that no other mortal has. To say that he is on another playing field is one hell of an understatement. The CHA and WIS guys going after him is basically the equivalent of Hayley with the bluff potion and some sort of Gandhi-Buddha hybrid going up against a guy that makes Tony Stark look like an idiot. The INT guy is someone who can calculate butterfly effects, no amount of smooth talking is going to put you on a field with him. You think you bluffed him? No he saw that coming 50 moves ago before you even knew you were playing, now leave him alone as he is busy trying to finish his worm hole generator.

[Kaww]

What are the X guy's stats in Y and Z? That would actually help this nonsense, I meant debate? If they are eight or lower Wis is a sure winner. He does have a super intelligent opponent, but the said opponent can't remember who he is fighting and what for, per PHB... Also the other one is Elan.

[Corrik]

Since they are commoners I assume their other stats are 10.

[NichG]

The issue is that you are only looking at it in terms of modifiers and skill checks. You need to look at it in terms of what having stats that high means. The INT guy isn't just someone who has a +15 to craft checks. The INT guy has an understanding of the fabric and workings of the universe to a degree that no other mortal has. To say that he is on another playing field is one hell of an understatement. The CHA and WIS guys going after him is basically the equivalent of Hayley with the bluff potion and some sort of Gandhi-Buddha hybrid going up against a guy that makes Tony Stark look like an idiot. The INT guy is someone who can calculate butterfly effects, no amount of smooth talking is going to put you on a field with him. You think you bluffed him? No he saw that coming 50 moves ago before you even knew you were playing, now leave him alone as he is busy trying to finish his worm hole generator.

So something like this actually played out a bit in the campaign I'm in right now, which is a bit of a god game in scope. I'm playing a super-high-Wis character (think 50-100 range), which I model by being genre savvy and aware of the DM's tendencies and habits. Essentially, intuitive understanding of what the universe means, as opposed to just how it works. There's an NPC who is super-high-Int in the same way and is ostensibly trying to take advantage of our actions for his own gain. The DM has basically modeled that NPC as having superior ability to predict what's going to happen and to come up with ways to exploit it.

We always end up having something where he plans and then at the last minute my character intuits whats going on and interrupts it, or my character intuits what's going on but he has a backup plan, and so on. It's ended up being a sort of amusing rivalry, since my character doesn't actually care about stopping him, but just seems to accidentally beat him to things half the time.

So at least the way it has played out in that campaign has mostly been a draw between Int and Wis, perhaps slightly leaning towards Wis due to player advantage. We also have a obscenely-high-Cha character but she's not really involved in that rivalry.

[Dr. Steve]

First I'd like to say that I enjoyed the fairy tale response.

My thinking is that's it's actually some sort of cosmic rock, paper, scissors game.
This is why:
Charisma - Cannot be killed in person if it's high enough. Will attempt to befriend the others and play them off one another if he can.
Intelligence - Can realize that someone who can be this loved will not be able to be taken out personally and invents a machine to do it. And then attacks Wisdom.
Wisdom - Is aware the Gods are meddling in their lives, however having no control/assuming he has to continue knows that someone who is THAT charasmatic will not be able to be killed in person and so focuses on Intelligence.

In the end the cycle can also work the other way, its just too difficult to say which one would beat the others and so it will just be a life long stalemate between all of them. The deciding factors will not be their high mental stat, but rather their flaws and personalities that dictate how they would use and be used by this new power.

[Mr.Bookworm]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6e/Ozymandiascomics.jpg
This guy wins.

Given that Ozymandias has incredibly high Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, that doesn't actually help us in any way. :smalltongue:

Personally? I think Intguy would come up with a plan to get out of the whole "kill two other people" thing (these guys are presumably True Neutral). He would explain this plan to Wisguy, who could Sense Motive him to tell that he was being sincere. Wisguy probably tempers a fairly wild plan with a good dose of common sense. They then gang up and explain the plan to Chaguy.

Then, they fight crime!

Actually, this could be a fun campaign. If you really need to get a source of plot in there beyond the inherent stupidity the players would inevitably get up to, you could have the three gods sending agents after them to try to force them to settle the bet.

[Darth Stabber]

The CHA guy cannot scry
Bull Crap (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scrying.htm) he can't scry. Bards cast scry as a third level spell, therefore it is wandable, therefore he can UMD the crap out of it.

Infact CHA guy is the only one that can UMD to any relevant extent (assuming he buys one rank). At +21 he can make wands do what he wants all day long. Yeah the other might be able to buy up armies, but cha can buy and diplomacize an army, and cast spells via spell completion items. He probably can't scry wis guy, but he can scry int guy.

[tanderson11]

I think this is a fascinating and elegant question. I do not care much for the rules aspect of it, but it poses an interesting puzzle.

Of course some of this comes down to how you define the attributes.

Intelligence:
To me, this includes problem solving which makes anyone possessing great intelligence inventive and an excellent planner.

Wisdom:
I think of Wisdom as being instinctive, but the opposite of impulsive. This means the wise one is perceptive and adaptable on his or her feet.

Charisma:
In my opinion, Charisma is not strictly a measure of intelligence, but an intangible gauge of someone's force of personality. The charisma person would be manipulative, likable, and a capable leader.



In a duel between Intelligence and Wisdom I think it would result in a stalemate, with a potential edge to Intelligence. Wisdom would be too perceptive to be trapped by Intelligence, but not able to kill Intelligence because Intelligence's plans would be to comprehensive. I give the edge to Intelligence because I feel do to the fact that Wisdom relies on experience, Wisdom could be predictable.

Charisma adds a certain wildcard effect, and both Intelligence and Wisdom would realize this. If Charisma could reach a populated area, Charisma could find enough followers to protect as well as find and kill Intelligence and Wisdom. Therefore we can assume Wisdom and Intelligence would seek to kill Charisma before he could reach civilization. The gamble would turn into a manhunt. Assuming Intelligence and Wisdom win, I would favor Wisdom from that point. This is because when they interacted, Wisdom would have no chance of being fooled by Intelligence whereas Intelligence would have an average chance of being manipulated by Wisdom.



I still prefer MightyPirate's explanation that they would turn on the deities, and after achieving godhood, in their loneliness, they would make a bet . . .

There is one potential catch to this I can see. If Wisdom is so wise, how could she ever make the same mistake as those before her?

[Moriato]

Int guy obsesses over his elaborate plans to defeat the other two day and night and never winds up executing them because he always finds another way it could possibly fail.

Cha guy recruits thousands of followers in order to raise an army against the other two, but becomes too wrapped up in the politics of ruling over all these people, and eventually establishes his own nation and completely forgets the other two ever existed

Wis guy realises after months of meditation that war and strife are pointless and retires to a nearby mountaintop to contemplate the true purpose behind the gods' bet, and is never heard from or seen again

No one wins the bet but the gods learn a valuable lesson and later sell the movie rights to Lifetime and make boatloads of cash

[cfalcon]

Int figures it out, and handily defeats Charisma. He looks for Wisdom, and finds that he got into trouble right away, and was murdered.

Meanwhile, Wisdom is actually across the world after staging his death immediately upon realizing what was going on. He's finding ways to improve it with memes and teaching people morality in compelling ways. Win? He doesn't want to win. He's transcended that.

[Arbitrarious]

My concern is that Int and Wis aren't really separate enough in D&D for me. Common sense is usually just applied logic. Best I could figure Int would always be working with the best tools (ideas, plans, etc) but may not always make the best use of them while Wis would always use his limited tools in the best fashion possible. At that point it all comes down to chance. Cha has potential, but only if diplomancy shenanigans are allowed. Most DMs would let you persude someone, but the arguement behind it would have to be better then "because I want you too." So cha guy would have to do some quick thinking or be good at reading people to get them on track. If diplomacy = mindrape then cha wins.

So much chaos though, fun idea to play.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Another thought, the Int guy knows the Cha guy will build an army. He finds him (use your imagination) and then when Cha is recruiting Int comes aboard. After awhile he eventually ascends to trusted advisor due to his brilliant strategies and plans. Being close to Cha, who is now presumably king he will kill him OR manipulate him from behind the scenes into a position where he ends up getting himself killed or dethroned THEN killed.

and

Wis knows that the gods are interfering. He also has the wisdom of knowing that all mental attributes have their own merits and cannot be compared to each other. He then collects funds to purchase anti scrying equipment and then goes off into the vast unknown with his massive survival skill to live the rest of his days in solitude and hopefully end this contest without any blood shed.

[MightyPirate]

I still prefer MightyPirate's explanation that they would turn on the deities, and after achieving godhood, in their loneliness, they would make a bet . . .

There is one potential catch to this I can see. If Wisdom is so wise, how could she ever make the same mistake as those before her?

Elementary my dear Watson. Wisdom champion, as cfalcon points out, has transcended the idea of "winning" and taken on the responsibility of teaching morality to people in compelling ways.

What better way to do this than the gamble itself? When the gods become so corrupted that they feel they must pit lowly commoners against each other to determine which mental attribute is superior; wisdom realizes the truth. The gods themselves have become a danger to humanity and rather than threatening all of mankind Wisdom god (and in turn Wisdom champion) proposes that matters be settled on a smaller, less destructive scale.

Little do Charisma god and Intelligence god know: the gamble is a ruse. Wisdom god knows what the outcome will be (that the commoner champions will slay the gods) but proposes the gamble anyway to protect the entire mortal world from the immature quarreling of the gods. Think of Wisdom god (and in turn Wisdom champion) as supremely insightful martyrs.

[Coventry]

I doubt that CHA guy even makes it to the fight. Think about Beetlemania (where large crowds were chasing our heroes), and then crank it up to horror movie proportions. In that crowd, there would be at least one jealous, jilted lover/noble/dragon/stalker who decides, "if I cannot have X, then no one can!" War results.

Because of the war, INT guy gets pulled into building better and better seige weapons. Those have to be tested, and eventually, being too close to an experiment gone wrong takes him out. Either that, or his noble patron decides to silence the one man who knows about the one flaw in the super weapon. Either way, squish.

Not that WIS guy is in much luck - he might be wise enough to avoid the entanglements of the jealousy of his neighbors, but if he wins, he has two dieties angry at him. Oh, and a crowd of angry mourners of the CHA guy looking for a scapegoat.

[Crisis21]

Okay. Here's the thing.

First, people are making assumptions. One of those assumptions is that the Gods tell their chosen what the bet is.

Now, having the Gods do that is a potential violation of the bet, as the commoner now has not only +40 to a mental attribute, but also divine counsel as to what they should do. That solves nothing.

So let's say that the three have no knowledge of why they are blessed or that there are two more like them that they must kill.

We'll assume that they will eventually meet as having them all live their lives without doing so would make it all pointless.

We'll also assume that none of them are Good aligned (Evil or Neutral) as if they were, then they would join forces rather than kill each other.


The Charisma guy gets lots of additional charisma but no additional intelligence or wisdom.

He can convince others to do just about anything, but lacks the mental prowess to come up with clever uses of his ability (INT) or to use it to the best effect (WIS).

He'll probably use it to cement his social power and get lots of friends who will lay down their lives for him. He'll also probably spend lots of time seducing anyone he finds attractive.

He has alot of support, but little ability to organize it into something cohesive.


The Intelligence guy gets lots of additional intelligence, but no additional wisdom or charisma. He can understand that he'll get more power by getting class levels, likely in wizard to take advantage of his intelligence, and will end up studying. However he won't have the ability to gain firm allies (CHA) or moderate his behavior (WIS).

He'll likely gain alot of personal power, but not have more than a few people who will put up with him for any length of time and almost all of those will have their own agenda.


The Wisdom guy will have lots of additional wisdom but no additional charisma or intelligence.

He'll be able to make very good decisions based upon his resources, but he won't be able to perform complex planning (INT) or cement loyal followers (CHA).

He'll likely become an adviser to someone smarter and more charismatic than he is and can protect him well.


Who will win based on this information?

[BenInHB]

Lets look at historical archetypes for these guys

Hitler vs. Gandhi vs. Einstein...