Elder Scrolls Lore

[Vrythas]

Hi,

from discussion made during another of my threads (favorite elder scrolls game) i decided to open a new thread for the discussion of lore and history in the Elder Scrolls. To start a discussion, i remember a quest in Oblivion - where you have to go to blizzard pass or something like that, the backstory is when Tamriel was being invaded to the Akaviri, so yeah, anyone know much about that?

[Eldan]

Actually, the Akaviri snake people even ruled Tamriel for a while, more or less.

In the first Era, the Emperor Remanus III of the Second Empire was assassinated by the Morag Tong after a war with Morrowind.

Remanus I had defeated the Akaviri invasion, but the Akaviri more or less just stayed there. After the assassination, the Emperor's chief advisor, the potentate, was always one of the snakes.

Then, one potentate decided to kill the crown prince and emperor and declare himself ruler, though still under the title of Potentate. This started the first Era and about 400 years of civil war, until the Morag Tong assassinated him too.

Edit: I just found something interesting:
According to unofficial statements by some of the designers, Cyrodiil indeed used to be a tropical jungle, but Tiber Septim, with magic or otherwise, changed it to a temperate climate.

[Vrythas]

Actually, the Akaviri snake people even ruled Tamriel for a while, more or less.

In the first Era, the Emperor Remanus III of the Second Empire was assassinated by the Morag Tong after a war with Morrowind.

Remanus I had defeated the Akaviri invasion, but the Akaviri more or less just stayed there. After the assassination, the Emperor's chief advisor, the potentate, was always one of the snakes.

Then, one potentate decided to kill the crown prince and emperor and declare himself ruler, though still under the title of Potentate. This started the first Era and about 400 years of civil war, until the Morag Tong assassinated him too.

Edit: I just found something interesting:
According to unofficial statements by some of the designers, Cyrodiil indeed used to be a tropical jungle, but Tiber Septim, with magic or otherwise, changed it to a temperate climate.

wow, the morag tong seem to be really busy...all the time. have you ever found out about how they started? i remember it was talked about briefly in Morrowind, but perhaps you could enlighten me....and others....

[Cogwheel]

Edit: I just found something interesting:
According to unofficial statements by some of the designers, Cyrodiil indeed used to be a tropical jungle, but Tiber Septim, with magic or otherwise, changed it to a temperate climate.

Oh, good. Now I know who to hate for generic medieval fantasy environments.

He's why Cyrodiil isn't as weirdly awesome/awesomely weird as Morrowind. Boo hiss etc.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

If true, I now dislike Tiber Septim that much more now.

[Vrythas]

Oh, good. Now I know who to hate for generic medieval fantasy environments.

He's why Cyrodiil isn't as weirdly awesome/awesomely weird as Morrowind. Boo hiss etc.

i agree....but, that reminds me of a new question. whats up with the dwemer? and the fact that they're not there - in Morrowind.

[Cogwheel]

i agree....but, that reminds me of a new question. whats up with the dwemer? and the fact that they're not there - in Morrowind.

Well, you see, a long time ago, THERE WAS SUCH A THING AS MASSIVE SPOILERS.

Suffice to say that you find out. Ish. It's rather intriguing, in any case.

[Vrythas]

Well, you see, a long time ago, THERE WAS SUCH A THING AS MASSIVE SPOILERS.

Suffice to say that you find out. Ish. It's rather intriguing, in any case.

dang it! foiled again by back-story-information-turned-game-relevant-events! okay, what about the Morag Tong?

[Cogwheel]

dang it! foiled again by back-story-information-turned-game-relevant-events! okay, what about the Morag Tong?

They, uh...

They kill people or something. I dunno.

[Eldan]

The Dwemer are really fascinating. Can't say more before you've done the main quest. There's still mysteries after.

For the Tong: I had to check the Wiki, but here's what I found:

The Morag Tong is officially sanctioned by the Empire, but only in Morrowind (probably as part of Vivec's peace negotiations which allowed the Dunmer to keep most of their ancient laws, such as slavery and their own religion). They are allowed to assassinate people under a system of official contracts and a very restrictive code of conduct. An example for that is that they have to turn themselves over to the law after each assassination.

As for their creation: legends claim that during the early days, when the Chimer (proto-Dunmer) still worshiped Daedra, Mephala the Webspinner forbade them to wage war openly among each other and between the houses. Instead, he thought them the arts of secrecy, poisoning and assassination.

The Dark Brotherhood is an off-shoot of the Morag Tong, who abandoned Mephala for Sithis and "proper" assassination for religious bloodshed.

[Vrythas]

They, uh...

They kill people or something. I dunno.

well, yeah, they also get to do it legally.... but now i guess you have some more trivial information to look up...if you want....

[Eldan]

See my post :smallwink:

Also, I don't really know how busy they are. These two high-profile assassinations were centuries apart.

Of course, elves live for ages anyway. Queen Barenziah is something like 500 years old now. She met Tiber Septim when she was young, the founder of the current empire.

[Myshlaevsky]

I find it difficult to recall a spot of TES lore I found as weirdly interesting as the concept of CHIM and Vivec's relationship with it in Morrowind. Once I got the underlying point of CHIM I couldn't stop grinning, it just seemed like such a fantastic way to put that kind of idea in the game.


According to unofficial statements by some of the designers, Cyrodiil indeed used to be a tropical jungle, but Tiber Septim, with magic or otherwise, changed it to a temperate climate.

I suppose that at least provides a reason.

[Vrythas]

I find it difficult to recall a spot of TES lore I found as weirdly interesting as the concept of CHIM and Vivec's relationship with it in Morrowind. Once I got the underlying point of CHIM I couldn't stop grinning, it just seemed like such a fantastic way to put that kind of idea in the game.



I suppose that at least provides a reason.

one question.... what is CHIM? and to address the name that i recognized - Barenziah - i recall CONSTANTLY finding the book "The Real Barenziah" in both Morrowind and Oblivion, but never bothered to read it. i suppose that would be a really good idea if you wanted to learn a lot about TES lore - read the in-game books.

[Eldan]

Drawing a blank here. CHIM? I seem to remotely remember something like that, but what was it?

[Vrythas]

Drawing a blank here. CHIM? I seem to remotely remember something like that, but what was it?

it sounds like a city from Morrowind, one of the Northern ones.

[Eldan]

one question.... what is CHIM? and to address the name that i recognized - Barenziah - i recall CONSTANTLY finding the book "The Real Barenziah" in both Morrowind and Oblivion, but never bothered to read it. i suppose that would be a really good idea if you wanted to learn a lot about TES lore - read the in-game books.

Yes, you should. They are not only fantastic, but really, all the lore comes from them. And I think the main quest will get really confusing without it.

Anyway. Barenziah is the queen mother of Morrowind. I.e. the mother of the current King, Hlaalu Helseth. But, as I said, she's almost been around for longer than the current Empire.

She has two biographies: one official and one inofficial, i.e, The Real Barenziah, written anonymously and telling a few... questionable episodes in her life. Such as an affair with then-married emperor Tiberius.

[Myshlaevsky]

one question.... what is CHIM? and to address the name that i recognized - Barenziah - i recall CONSTANTLY finding the book "The Real Barenziah" in both Morrowind and Oblivion, but never bothered to read it. i suppose that would be a really good idea if you wanted to learn a lot about TES lore - read the in-game books.


Drawing a blank here. CHIM? I seem to remotely remember something like that, but what was it?

CHIM crops up in the 36 Sermons of Vivec, as "the secret syllable of royalty" and a kind of font of power. Michael Kirkbride has put out quite a bit of stuff concerning it outside the game. What really sells me on CHIM is the theory (which I buy into, to some extent) that CHIM represents an awareness of the fictional nature of the game and that Vivec functions as a sort of meta-aware NPC - which I imagine is not to some people's tastes at all, but it is something that I found really entertaining to imagine. You can check out 'The Metaphysics of Morrowind' (http://fallingawkwardly.wordpress.com/2010/08/29/the-metaphysics-of-morrowind-part-1/) for what is probably the most cogent attempt at explaining this point of view.

[Terraoblivion]

There is a problem with the Dark Brotherhood worshipping Sithis exclusively and not Mephala in the slightest. They never mention Sithis at all in Daggerfall, where they go on and on about Mephala, and Sithis is only mentioned in an off-hand comment in Morrowind, which otherwise still has them worshipping Mephala. It wasn't until Oblivion that all ties between the Dark Brotherhood and Mephala were cut without any kind of explanation. That's one of the things about that game which really bugs me.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

Actually, there is no concrete explanation for what happened to the Dwemer (aka dwarves). It really isn't that spoilery. When you get the quest a few people put forward some ideas. Heck you can read about it before the quest if you break into Vivec's room. All that is known for certain is that the dwemer vanished during the Battle of Red Mountain.

The leading theories on why are.
1.) Misuse of the Kagrenac's Tools to elevate the dwemer to the power of their constructed brass god.
2.) Side effect of the misuse of Heart of Lorkhan
3.) A divine punishment. Mostly for trying to raise their own god.

[Eldan]

CHIM crops up in the 36 Sermons of Vivec, as "the secret syllable of royalty" and a kind of font of power. Michael Kirkbride has put out quite a bit of stuff concerning it outside the game. What really sells me on CHIM is the theory (which I buy into, to some extent) that CHIM represents an awareness of the fictional nature of the game and that Vivec functions as a sort of meta-aware NPC - which I imagine is not to some people's tastes at all, but it is something that I found really entertaining to imagine. You can check out 'The Metaphysics of Morrowind' (http://fallingawkwardly.wordpress.com/2010/08/29/the-metaphysics-of-morrowind-part-1/) for what is probably the most cogent attempt at explaining this point of view.

Great and powerful Padomay. There goes my afternoon. I should be working, you know.

Edit : that was fun. I also read the Trial of Vivec just now. Now I'm not sure what to think.

So. Dragon Breaks. They make so much sense. I'm wondering: has anyone ever connected the first Era Dragon Break, 1008 years becoming 150, with the story of Alduin, the Nordic Akatosh, eating the Nord's lifetime?

[Myshlaevsky]

Great and powerful Padomay. There goes my afternoon. I should be working, you know.

Edit : that was fun. I also read the Trial of Vivec just now. Now I'm not sure what to think.

So. Dragon Breaks. They make so much sense. I'm wondering: has anyone ever connected the first Era Dragon Break, 1008 years becoming 150, with the story of Alduin, the Nordic Akatosh, eating the Nord's lifetime?

Five Songs of King Wulfharth. (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Five_Songs_of_King_Wulfharth)


Old Knocker

The third song of King Wulfharth tells of his death. Orkey, an enemy god, had always tried to ruin the Nords, even in Atmora where he stole their years away. Seeing the strength of King Wulfharth, Orkey summoned the ghost of Alduin Time-Eater again. Nearly every Nord was eaten down to six years old. Boy Wulfharth pleaded to Shor, the dead Chieftain of the Gods, to help his people. Shor's own ghost then fought the Time-Eater on the spirit plane, as he did at the beginning of time, and he won, and Orkey's folk, the Orcs, were ruined. As Boy Wulfharth watched the battle in the sky he learned a new thu'um, What Happens When You Shake the Dragon Just So. He used this new magic to change his people back to normal. In his haste to save so many, though, he shook too many years out on himself. He grew older than the Greybeards, and died. The flames of his pyre were said to have reached the hearth of Kyne itself.

I think there's definitely room to make that kind of interpretation.

[Eldan]

Interesting. That does sound like Wulfharth achieved a Dragon Break.

Plus, if a Thu'um can achieve a dragon break, there is an alternative explanation on how Tiber Septim could have induced his dragon break, beyond the Numidium.

Edit: any my apologies to the OP and other people who might not understand a word of what I say.



There is a problem with the Dark Brotherhood worshipping Sithis exclusively and not Mephala in the slightest. They never mention Sithis at all in Daggerfall, where they go on and on about Mephala, and Sithis is only mentioned in an off-hand comment in Morrowind, which otherwise still has them worshipping Mephala. It wasn't until Oblivion that all ties between the Dark Brotherhood and Mephala were cut without any kind of explanation. That's one of the things about that game which really bugs me.


Good point, though I did not play Daggerfall and just thought it wasn't mentioned much in Morrowind.

It could be that there are sects within the Brotherhood. I could easily imagine (and it fits the way the game threats all religion) that there is a Mephala-worshipping sect in Morrowind, connected to Hlaalu Helseth, and a Sithis-worshipping sect in Cyrodiil.

Of course, the upper ranks of the Cyrodiil sect would not admit this to a novice.

[Terraoblivion]

If I remember correctly, Sithis is part of the beliefs of the Dark Brotherhood in Morrowind, just subsidiary to Mephala. I might be wrong on that. Still, I think the easiest explanation is that the ones in Cyrodiil are a splinter faction and not the main Dark Brotherhood.

[Dogmantra]

Not entirely on the line of conversation going, but something that bugged me about the TES novel that was released, The Infernal City or whatever. Spoileriffic for Morrowind and probably the book too:
So the plot is that with the Heart of Lorkhan gone, the Tribunal (or rather... the remnants of the Tribunal) lost their powers because they got 'em from the Heart. This sent the Ministry of Justice crashing into Vvardenfell, destroying a crapton of Morrowind. I have a couple of problems with this:
a) Did Vivec not convince the moon to not crash into Morrowind?
b) It was always implied that Vehk didn't actually get his divine powers from the Heart in later years. Almalexia went crazy, Sotha Sil went crazy, but Vivec was just incredibly calm about everything. Personally, I was under the impression that he was so enlightened that he became a god because he kind of just... wanted to. If this was the case, why would the Ministry of Justice (and now I'm trying to work out if I was misremembering and I mean the Ministry of Truth) fall at all?

As for CHIM, two things about that, firstly do not bring it up on the official Bethesda forums because you will get 5000000 pages of people posting essays on CHIM and they tend to have exactly the same stuff as in the last essay that particular poster wrote. Secondly, my personal theory on CHIM is that it's the state of knowing and not caring SO HARD that you warp reality, possibly due to the knowledge of the fictional nature. Hence why Vehk is one of my favourite characters in anything ever.

Finally, anyone else noticed that the plots of the last few games have involved The Towers being slowly removed?
The Heart of Lorkhan was destroyed, thus removing the tower of Red Mountain, the Dragonfires were... I can't remember because I never took as much of an interest in Oblivion, but White Gold Tower isn't a Tower any more. Pretty sure there was at least one Tower being destroyed in Daggerfall. It really looks like they're leading up to something spectacular. I just wish we knew more about The Towers.

[Eldan]

I can at least help partially on that.

Vivec, from what I remember, specifically stopped the moon, but, basically, left all the energy in the moon, so as soon as he wasn't around anymore to hold it back, it would fall. It was implied in some text, though I don't remember where, that he left it as a constant reminder of his power to the Dunmer, and as a threat on what would happen if they should turn from him.

I'd assume the second thing is because Vekh has CHIM (did he get it before or after the heart? I'm not sure). It would make sense for the power of CHIM to make him the only mortal to use the heart and stay sane. That's basically what it does anyone. A superior state of sanity.

And on the towers: this is the first game starting in a new era. It might come up.
What other towers do we have? Crystal Tower in Sumerset, the Ceporah Tower of the Psijic, any others?

There's the Adamantine Direnni Tower which showed up in Daggerfall, but as I never played that game, I'm not sure what happened with it.

[Dogmantra]

I'd assume the second thing is because Vekh has CHIM (did he get it before or after the heart? I'm not sure). It would make sense for the power of CHIM to make him the only mortal to use the heart and stay sane. That's basically what it does anyone. A superior state of sanity.

I was under the impression that CHIM replaced the divinity from the Heart with its own special kind of divinity, but I guess that's just the way I interpreted it. Still, I think it makes Vehk a much more interesting character.
(as a sidenote, am I the only one who totally uses Vehk, Ayem and Seht as much as their "actual" names?)

[Eldan]

Hmm. I interpreted it that ALMSIVI were the names of their divinities, while the others where their birth names, basically. Like kings Emperors and kings who get a new royal name when they are crowned.

Edit: back on the towers: is there any more information on them? I must admit I never got really deep into the lore, as much as I wish I did.

[Terraoblivion]

As far as I know Direnni Tower remained standing at the end of Daggerfall. Now that can easily be retconned given the dragon break and the power of the Numidium, but at least it didn't break in the game.

[Mewtarthio]

I sort of thought that CHIM had something to do with "chimer," the thing the dunmer were before whosever fault it was did whatever happened to change them. It gets a bit confusing around that time.

[sentaku]

On the dwemer:

They become the skin of the Numidium.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/final-report-trebonius
On the moon;


From sermon 33


When Nerevar returned, he saw the frozen comet above his lord's city. He asked whether or not Vivec wanted it removed.

'I would have done so myself if I wanted, silly Hortator. I shall keep it there with its last intention intact, so that if the love of the people of this city for me ever disappear, so shall the power that holds back their destruction.'

Nerevar said, 'Love is under your will only.'


The moon continued fell because the dunmer stopped loving Vivec.

[Eldan]

Poor moon, just hanging up there in the sky.

But we all knew Vivec could be kind of a ****.

[Vrythas]

well, i've been doing some searching about the Akaviri, and apparently their presence in Tamriel had quite some impact on both political and military structure of imperial government. the most obvious is the use of their weapons and armor styles by the King's Blade's in Oblivion. also, the military benefited from their advanced knowledge of tactics. however, i have yet to find anything that shows what they look like.

[Cogwheel]

well, i've been doing some searching about the Akaviri, and apparently their presence in Tamriel had quite some impact on both political and military structure of imperial government. the most obvious is the use of their weapons and armor styles by the King's Blade's in Oblivion. also, the military benefited from their advanced knowledge of tactics. however, i have yet to find anything that shows what they look like.

Mudcrabs.

Foreign mudcrabs.

[Vrythas]

Mudcrabs.

Foreign mudcrabs.

wow, its been three days and you finally post again.... and by the way, that is really funny "foreign mudcrabs" do you mean the Morrowind versions or Oblivion versions? to be honest, the Morrowind ones live up to the name "mudcrab", the ones in Oblivion look like ordinary - albeit oversized - crabs.

[Eldan]

There's several native races of Akavir. From the Elder Scrolls Wiki:


Tsaesci is translated as "Snake Palace", and was once the strongest kingdom in Akavir. It is home to the Vampire Snake people who ate the men of Akavir long ago. They are described as beautiful, with golden scales, a human upper body and a snake like lower body. The goblin tribes of Akavir are their source of food and labor. Potentate Versidue-Shaie was a Tsaesci who ruled Tamriel in the previous era for 400 years before being assassinated by the Morag Tong.

[Cogwheel]

There's several native races of Akavir. From the Elder Scrolls Wiki:

Tsaesci is translated as "Snake Palace", and was once the strongest kingdom in Akavir. It is home to the Vampire Snake people who ate the men of Akavir long ago. They are described as beautiful, with golden scales, a human upper body and a snake like lower body. The goblin tribes of Akavir are their source of food and labor. Potentate Versidue-Shaie was a Tsaesci who ruled Tamriel in the previous era for 400 years before being assassinated by the Morag Tong.

There you have it. They're vampire snakes. Their ancestors were vampiric dinosaur robot slavers.

[Eldan]

I just interpreted it as something like fantasy Nagas. Who may or may not also be vampiric.

I mean, there's tons of discussion on what they actually mean by "eating" stuff, so who knows what they meant by vampire.

[Cogwheel]

I just interpreted it as something like fantasy Nagas. Who may or may not also be vampiric.

I mean, there's tons of discussion on what they actually mean by "eating" stuff, so who knows what they meant by vampire.

You're talking to someone who convinced himself that Jade Empire contains an army of ninja robot zombie pirates.

Your logic is powerless here.

[Eldan]

Well, Jade Empire kinda does already. So, that's not in question.

[Cogwheel]

Well, Jade Empire kinda does already. So, that's not in question.

Oh good, so it's not just me.

But yes, I was joking about the whole vampire snake thing. Sounds like nagas to me.

Now then, if you'll excuse me, I'll go back to being grumpy about my computer being inadequate for Skyrim purposes.

[Eldan]

Heh. October is when our ûniversity traditionally sells its half-price computers. I'll get a new one then. Which, hopefully, will also be able to handle Morrowind 2011.

[Cogwheel]

Heh. October is when our ûniversity traditionally sells its half-price computers. I'll get a new one then. Which, hopefully, will also be able to handle Morrowind 2011.

That gives me a wonderful idea.

I can now tell people that my 2009 laptop is too old to run Morrowind.

[Eldan]

Mine's from 2006. It runs New Vegas, but not Morrowind :smalltongue:

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Mine's from 2006. It runs New Vegas, but not Morrowind :smalltongue:

Mine is from 2006, and runs just about everything slowly. 5 year old processor and graphics card... and middle-of-the-range ones for the time on top of that.
Yeah, not running ANY 2011 games, or 2010, and even 2009 games give me trouble.