ToB Question

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

So this may be a dumb question...but I don't see any rules written about it in the ToB itself nor can I find a relevant talk about it through google.

If I were to make a build that had one level of Warblade and one Level of Swordsage...would I be able to benifit from BOTH classes maneuvers and stances simultaneously? Mostly focusing on the stances. Obviously if you have two stances from one class you cannot use them both at the same time. Unless you are a 20th level warblade. But what if it was two from different sources?

[Douglas]

Excepting certain class features such as the Warblade capstone, you can only ever have a single stance active at a time. Multiclassing does not change this.

A Swordsage 1/Warblade 1 would have both his Swordsage and Warblade maneuvers available to choose from any time he decided to use one, but they would remain just as constrained by action costs as for a single class character and each class's set would be separated - every Warblade maneuver readied must come from the Warblade maneuvers known, every Swordsage maneuver readied must come from the Swordsage maneuvers known, the Warblade recovery technique only recovers the Warblade maneuvers, and the Swordsage recovery technique can only recover a Swordsage maneuver. Using Adaptive Style for maneuver recovery would work for both classes at once, though.

[Firechanter]

Maneuvers yes, stances no.

I'd apply page 38: "You initiate your stance as a swift action [...] You enjoy the benefit of your stance until you change to another stance you know as a swift action."

Either way, the RAI are abundantly clear. Dual Stance wouldn't be a level 20 capstone if any level 2 character could have it just by being a Warblade/Swordsage.

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

Fair enough, that is what I thought too. But I figured I would get a second opinion just in case.

[begooler]

Questions similar to this one are frequently being asked on this thread. The easiest way to answer it for yourself is to think... "How would this work if I were multiclassing two casting classes?" Usually, the answer is the same.

The main exception is your initiator level, where you get to add half of the levels you have in other classes.

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

Alright new question with the same setup. When picking maneuvers from the two classes...could i pick the same maneuver twice...Say, Sudden Leap for example. And use that maneuver twice per encounter, one for each class?

[Firechanter]

I doubt this question can be answered by looking at the rules. I think it's fair enough -- after all, if you do actually learn a maneuver with both classes separately, you should also be able to ready them separately. However, what's probably out is that you learn a maneuver with one class and ready it with the other.

That said, afaik nowhere in the ToB does it say that you can ready any given maneuver only once, although most groups handle it that way. Iirc there's a Main FAQ answer that says you can't, but then there's also a lot of nonsense printed in the FAQ so it's not necessarily the be-all and end-all answer written in stone.
There's actually quite a bit going against this limitation, for instance that spellcasters may also fill as many slots as they want with a given spell (though of course spellcasters don't refresh so easily).
All in all, it's probably fair if adepts can ready each maneuver only once, but as far as I know it's not a hard and fast rule.

[Douglas]

Tome of Battle unfortunately does not make any clear explicit direct statement on these subjects, but there is a lot of wording that consistently talks about which maneuvers rather than how many copies of each maneuver, and that implies that multiplicity of maneuvers is not an option.

Official answers from WotC, compiled in a thread on their forum somewhere (google should find it pretty easily), back this up. Their rulings in that thread are that you can't ready a maneuver multiple times, and you can't learn a maneuver multiple times even with multiple classes. You either know a maneuver or you don't, and you either have a maneuver readied or you don't.

[begooler]

Alright new question with the same setup. When picking maneuvers from the two classes...could i pick the same maneuver twice...Say, Sudden Leap for example. And use that maneuver twice per encounter, one for each class?

I would ask your DM for that ruling. If he or she wants to refer to the FAQ for that answer, then there you go. However, he may have another conclusion based on his own logic.
In my games I rule many of the things differently than from the FAQ, like allowing swordsages 6x6 skillpoints at first level (because skillmonkies could really have more good things going for them) and allowing players to prepare the same maneuver more than once at a time.

[Arbitrarious]

Sage has also said maneuvers can only be learned once and likewise can only be readied once. However they also said maneuvers from any class can be used as prerequisites for maneuvers to other classes. For example your swordsage level could give you Wolf Fang strike which you could use to fulfill the prerequisite to learn sudden leap with your first warblade level.

It's win some lose some. If you don't use the communal maneuvers known ruling you would have to have each class meet prereqs for the maneuver it wanted which wastes slots.

[Veyr]

Alright new question with the same setup. When picking maneuvers from the two classes...could i pick the same maneuver twice...Say, Sudden Leap for example. And use that maneuver twice per encounter, one for each class?
There are basically two options:
Everything has separate lists — Your maneuvers known don't interact with each other (possibly aside from pre-reqs), so a maneuver may appear in both separate lists of maneuvers known, and therefore in both separate lists of maneuvers readied, and thus yes, you can have two readied. Each would be expended/recovered as normal for that class.
You only have one list — In this case, you either know it or you don't. It definitely counts for pre-reqs, but you can't learn it more than once and you can't ready it more than once. However, you can ready it with the "other" class — after all, you know the maneuver. So a Swordsage/Crusader would be able to ready Shadow Jaunt as a Crusader maneuver, and Revitalizing Strike as a Swordsage maneuver, if he wanted to. Oh, provided his Initiator Level was high enough in both classes; it's clear that you do require the IL in order to ready it, and classes definitely have separate IL.

[Darth Stabber]

What about a dual progression class for 2 TOB classes? I think I would like such a thing.

As far as preparing readying 2+ of the same manuever I would house rule it as okay (even if single classed), just because I have 1 swordsage trying to keep up with 2 casters in the game I am GMing, and I could live that ruling under different circumstances.

[Draz74]

What about a dual progression class for 2 TOB classes? I think I would like such a thing.

It's called Master of Nine. :smallwink:

[Veyr]

What about a dual progression class for 2 TOB classes? I think I would like such a thing.
Due to the way ToB PrCs work, it wouldn't be necessary. Any PrC that offers maneuvers known advances all of your Initiator Levels, and the maneuvers it grants can be applied to any class you have.

So a Swordsage 4/Warblade 4/Bloodclaw Master 5 has a Swordsage IL of 11 (4 + 4/2 + 5) and a Warblade IL of also 11 (4/2 + 4 + 5). Bloodclaw Master gains 3 maneuvers known, which could all be learned as Swordsage, or as Warblade, or 2 for one class and 1 for the other; it's up to you.

I'm AFB so I'm not quite sure how PrCs that give Maneuvers Readied work. Probably same deal, add one maneuver readied to either class. Stances definitely work the same as maneuvers known though.

[Arbitrarious]

You only have one list — In this case, you either know it or you don't. It definitely counts for pre-reqs, but you can't learn it more than once and you can't ready it more than once. However, you can ready it with the "other" class — after all, you know the maneuver. So a Swordsage/Crusader would be able to ready Shadow Jaunt as a Crusader maneuver, and Revitalizing Strike as a Swordsage maneuver, if he wanted to. Oh, provided his Initiator Level was high enough in both classes; it's clear that you do require the IL in order to ready it, and classes definitely have separate IL.[/list]

Actually sage said even though you have one pool of known maneuvers you must still ready them from the class that learned them. If not everyone would dip 1 level crusader and spam high level strikes learned from other classes.

[Veyr]

Actually sage said even though you have one pool of known maneuvers you must still ready them from the class that learned them. If not everyone would dip 1 level crusader and spam high level strikes learned from other classes.
Sage is not RAW. In this case, he is wrong. His ruling is inconsistent: either there's one list, or there's separate lists. If there's one list, they you know the maneuver, period, and can ready it with any class that can ready maneuvers of that level.

RAW is unclear about whether the lists are separate or not, but it is quite clear about what knowing a maneuver means, and how you can ready them. It would really be no different than having learned the maneuver from Martial Study.

[Douglas]

Sage is not RAW. In this case, he is wrong. His ruling is inconsistent: either there's one list, or there's separate lists. If there's one list, they you know the maneuver, period, and can ready it with any class that can ready maneuvers of that level.
Pigeonholing it into those options and only those options is a creation of your opinion. There is no inherent reason for a bit of mix-and-match to be impossible.

[Vangor]

Pigeonholing it into those options and only those options is a creation of your opinion. There is no inherent reason for a bit of mix-and-match to be impossible.

The reason would be consistency of Sage rules due to the lack from ToB itself. Suggesting maneuvers known is a singular list in order to restrict maneuvers being known only once regardless of amount of initiator classes while simultaneously suggesting maneuvers known is divided by initiator class and therefore only the initiator class can use maneuvers readied to ready the one copy of the known maneuver is ridiculously and clearly inconsistent. Not to say this is impossible, but there is a strong reason why this is not the correct answer.

[Veyr]

What Vangor said. If maneuvers known were to be treated one way when learning them (all lists are the same), but differently when readying them (each list is kept separate), there needs to be something indicating that this is the case. There is no such rule in Tome of Battle. Nothing indicates that you should treat maneuvers differently for these two things. This is an internal inconsistency within the Sage's ruling, and nothing suggests that we should be acting inconsistently. Nowhere in Tome of Battle is such a distinction made.

Also, to be clear, you do ready maneuvers separately. The only statement I was making was that if you have a single list, you could choose from any of your maneuvers known when making those maneuvers readied lists, provided your Initiator Levels are equal. If they're not, you'll know some maneuvers that you cannot ready as one or the other of the classes, but only because your Initiator Level is not high enough.

If they are separate, of course, you wouldn't be able to do this, but you would be able to re-learn and re-ready a maneuver, since the lists are completely independent.


However, I did neglect to respond to one other of your points: the idea of dipping Crusader and spamming high-level maneuvers from another class. This is not possible in either scenario: Tome of Battle clearly states that you must have sufficient Initiator Level to ready or initiate a maneuver, and also clearly states that classes do have separate Initiator Levels.

Not that the idea is utterly impossible, if you can fit enough maneuver-granting Prestige Class levels in there, since those will count for both Initiator Levels. This has been done, of course. Whether or not it is worth the loss of Initiator Level... I am less sure. The Tome of Battle classes are remarkably well balanced, so even though the Crusader has the best recovery mechanic, I do not think it is so much better as to be worth getting one fewer 9th level maneuver.