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Claudius Maximus
2011-03-23, 12:24 PM
I have a group I meet with every once in a while to play D&D. We've been doing so for years, with me almost always DMing. However, since I go to college rather far away from the players, I decided that instead of meeting only once or twice during the school year, we could simply continue the game online as a PbP.

Sounds simple, right? But I seem to have run into some kind of roadblock with the process. I constantly find myself putting out prompts and posts and whole walls of text and getting nothing, or perhaps only very little, in response. In nine months we never got into a battle, and the starting point was the wait right before a battle.

So obviously there's a problem. The players assure me constantly that I run an interesting game, and the basically have no criticism to offer no matter how humbly I try to invite it. They are always eager to meet in RL for the campaign, some driving for over an hour to get to the game. But these same people can't put aside 10 minutes to respond to a PbP.

I'm assuming they don't secretly hate me and my game, so I have to look elsewhere for the problem. Do I present the situations wrong? It always seems clear to me the sorts of responses that might come up after my posts, but they never seem to happen.

That's enough rambling. I've made this thread to ask, what can I do here? Some of these players are normally quite engaged, but I think something I'm doing isn't capturing their interest. Do you have any advice on how I can engage these players better over a PbP medium? Do you think this is a lost cause?

Erom
2011-03-23, 12:29 PM
Some people just don't do PbP. I've seen nearly the exact situation - a good, dedicated group gets separated by distance, still loves to play together and when they occasionally can meet in person or over skype or whatnot, the games are great, highly attended, enjoyed, and energetically played, but over PbP the game inevitably dries up after a few posts and goes on months long hiatus of dead time.

I have no suggestion for how to fix it, as far as I can tell as someone who has seen it happen several times is that some groups just don't do PbP.

Warlawk
2011-03-23, 12:58 PM
I love gaming in person. I can enjoy the entire spectrum of play. There are times it is fun to just wade into combat then hack and slash your way from one end of the session to the other. I love a good skill based game of special forces/stealth or mystery (we had a HU2 game that only had combat about 1 in 5 sessions because we usually skilled our way through situations and it was great), I love a good RP heavy game where you spend 99% of your time in character and busting out some dialogue with the other players and DM.

I don't PbP. I've tried. I have the time. I have the interest. I simply do not have the capability. I pick up a game and have good fun with it for a week or two maybe, and I'm just done. GG, it's over. Not sure why but I just cannot maintain interest in a PbP game at all. Even if I love the game setting/theme/idea. Even if I have a character that completely clicks for me. It simple does not matter. PbP will not work for me.

Sounds like you have a group of similar people.

Nohwl
2011-03-23, 02:06 PM
it might be how long it takes for everyone to post. i don't like pbp because it's so slow. if i have to play over the internet, using aim is much faster.

Claudius Maximus
2011-03-23, 02:37 PM
I for one never take more than a day to post, so it shouldn't be that they're all bored to death by my silence. I also encourage them to speak out if they're waiting on someone else in particular to post and it's been a long time, but I have never received such a complaint.

Warlawk, and others who say that they won't or can't do PbP, could you please explain your reasons why? If it's because of any problems with DMing or anything the whole point of this thread is to figure out how to overcome them.

I've been told my writing is dry and overly indicative - is your interest affected by engaging writing styles?

Surrealistik
2011-03-23, 02:40 PM
You can always use virtual tabletops like Maptools: http://rptools.net/

Zaranthan
2011-03-23, 02:53 PM
The biggest disadvantage that I've discovered with Play by Post so far is that you are no longer getting together with your friends once a week. Even if you're a bunch of hardcore roleplayers who never have a phone ring or a Monty Python joke for five hours straight, you're still sitting in a room spending time with people you like, and PbP can NEVER provide that experience.

Keld Denar
2011-03-23, 03:28 PM
One thing you can do is careful screening of players. Once you've been around a bit, you get to know the players who are more active. When you start games in the future, send out personal invites and try to fill as many slots as you can with people you know will be active. While board rules prohibit you from publishing a white or black list, you can still keep one, and the rules don't take away your right to invite only with the people you want. Be as picky as you need to be to ensure a quality selection of players who you know are going to be able to post to your desired frequency.

Smaller games tend to be better. I've been finding that 3-4 players is ideal. Even 5 starts getting to be rough to DM for, especially above about 5th level when actions can start to get rather complex. I just finished DMing for a level 15 combat, and it was REALLY hard with all of the abilities that a level 15 party can bring to the table, not to mention a level 15 caster badgirl who was also a full caster.

The biggest failing of PbP DMs I've seen is not enough "pulling" of the players. Sandbox games don't really work in PbP. Players need a stimulus to react to. When you post DMing updates, try to end your update with something to react to. "You walk through the woods" doesn't really give the players anything to respond to, and can lead to a couple days of silence where the players don't know if they are supposed to be responding to. "You walk through the woods. Up ahead in a clearing, you make out the shadowy shapes of figures moving around a campfire" clearly gives the players something to respond to. Some will try to make spot/listen/knowledge checks, others will attempt to move forward, while others will cast spells and/or prepare for combat.

Also, put deadlines on things like discussions or other down-time activities. Waiting for all players to report in that they desire to move on from a given encounter can cause lags that make it tough to recover from. A simple "If anybody has anything else they'd like to do, speak up, otherwise I'll update tomorrow at 6 PM EST." That gives players a chance to do something, but if nobody has any desire to respond, keeps the game from dropping into a lul.

Thats my advise and experience from playing around this forum and over on plothook with a variety of DMs, and DMing myself.

Malevolence
2011-03-23, 03:35 PM
The slower something is, the harder it is to maintain interest in it. A game in which everyone posts once per day is fast by PbP standards but could still easily result in days or weeks to resolve a single short combat or conversation. The same thing would take minutes of real time to resolve. This is the biggest reason why PbP games have an almost 100% failure rate.

DonEsteban
2011-03-23, 03:55 PM
Keld, I think you're completely missing the point. Claudius isn't interested in putting together a new group of people. He wants to play with his old pals. And I fear, Claudius, there's very little you can do. PbP gaming and tabletop gaming are just to completely different things. It's like football and table football. Or playing real tennis or a tennis video game. Sorry, I can't come up with better analogies. Some people like doing both, some just don't.

I think it's probably like Zaranthan said. Probably your friends appreciate the social, immediate aspect of the game more than the game itself (even if they are dedicated role players). Tabletop gaming is about meeting people, interacting with them, getting their (immediate, emotional) responses. PbP doesn't provide this in the same way. This is coming from someone who likes both. Ahm. You know what I mean... :smallsmile:

I don't think you're doing anything wrong. It's just not your groups thing. You could try a virtual tabletop system, combined with Teamspeak or Skype or whatever. It might work, but it's not guaranteed. It's still a different thing. Or you could just do something else like playing WoW or Counterstrike or whatever it is that the cool kids do these days...

Claudius Maximus
2011-03-23, 04:05 PM
One thing you can do is careful screening of players.

I can't pull a true version of this, since they are all members of my actual tabletop group. I am sort of doing this in a de facto sense since the really inactive players haven't even made characters. Still it looks to be slow going even with the rest. I don't feel right excluding my friends in any case. Turns out they're kind of my friends.


The biggest failing of PbP DMs I've seen is not enough "pulling" of the players. Sandbox games don't really work in PbP. Players need a stimulus to react to. When you post DMing updates, try to end your update with something to react to. "You walk through the woods" doesn't really give the players anything to respond to, and can lead to a couple days of silence where the players don't know if they are supposed to be responding to. "You walk through the woods. Up ahead in a clearing, you make out the shadowy shapes of figures moving around a campfire" clearly gives the players something to respond to. Some will try to make spot/listen/knowledge checks, others will attempt to move forward, while others will cast spells and/or prepare for combat.

This sounds like the biggest problem I have. I dread railroading so I've been avoiding this, but I think I've been taking steps in this direction recently.

For example, while in real life I could walk through a player slowly making his way through a forest that gets ever creepier, it's not nearly as feasible online. But if I have to condense it to one post I fear getting the complaint "I wouldn't have walked that far!" when things get really dangerous.

The weird thing is that if we were in person and I just said "you're in a town" they would come up with things to look for and do. Not so in PbP apparently.

HappyBlanket
2011-03-23, 04:05 PM
Just before I started PbP, someone suggested I use a webcam to play, with Skype, Oovoo, or whatever. I haven't tried it myself, but maybe you should consider it?

Claudius Maximus
2011-03-23, 04:11 PM
Just for the record I really don't think any sort of real-time substitute is feasible. I have roommates that I do not want to know that I play D&D, especially over the internet.

Another thing is that I consider it my responsibility as DM to engage and entertain the players. If this is apparently not happening I need to know why, in order that I might address the problem. In the case of something like this? If the problem is really only on the players' end, then there's not much I can do about it. But I have to look into my end, or I don't feel I'm making an effort to improve things.

Keld Denar
2011-03-23, 04:59 PM
Pshaw!!! Embrace your geekiness. I've actually gotten into the habit of telling girls I've been dating in the last couple years that I actively play D&D some weekends, and that I'm unavailable to hang out on those days at those times. I haven't had that slow me down yet!

Anyway, you could always break down the progressing into the creepy forest into parts.

"You go 3 miles into the forest. It starts getting darker, despite the fact that it must be getting close to noon. Do you wish to continue or take any special precautions?"
If nobody has any objections before 6 PM EST by Friday 3/24/11, I will continue further into the forest.

"You go another mile into the forest. The undergrowth is getting thicker, slowing your movement by half. You can only see ~15' in front of you due to the dense foliage."
If nobody has any objections before 6 PM EST by Saturday 3/25/11, I will continue further into the forest.

etc.

balistafreak
2011-03-23, 06:02 PM
Pshaw!!! Embrace your geekiness. I've actually gotten into the habit of telling girls I've been dating in the last couple years that I actively play D&D some weekends, and that I'm unavailable to hang out on those days at those times. I haven't had that slow me down yet!

A skeptic would point on that this is probably why you haven't landed one for an extended period of time yet. :smalltongue:

(I've doing the same thing though, sooo...)

Endarire
2011-03-23, 06:06 PM
What about using OpenRPG (http://www.openrpg.com), Klooge, or a similar internet client for an internet tabletop? Everyone must be present, but it stirs attention.

HappyBlanket
2011-03-23, 06:08 PM
I would also recommend you make your gaming known, but I suppose this isn't the thread for that.

If you have a laptop, real time online is a feasible option with headphones and a quick clicking finger. Kinda like watching... Actually, I probably shouldn't finish that.

Keld Denar
2011-03-24, 09:26 AM
A skeptic would point on that this is probably why you haven't landed one for an extended period of time yet. :smalltongue:

Ha? Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha! I'm doing alright for myself. More than alright. :smallcool:

balistafreak
2011-03-24, 09:44 AM
Ha? Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha! I'm doing alright for myself. More than alright. :smallcool:

Perhaps your implications behind the plural of "girl" don't match up with my expectations... :smallcool:

Codenpeg
2011-03-24, 11:18 AM
You can always use virtual tabletops like Maptools: http://rptools.net/

Then don't do it pBp, like what Surrealistik said: Virtual tabletop + Skype + Myth-Weavers for keeping track of sheets. It is as close as you can get to playing IRL as you're going to get.

One of the issues I've had with this though is my players think the dice rollers are out to get them.

Tyndmyr
2011-03-24, 11:35 AM
A skeptic would point on that this is probably why you haven't landed one for an extended period of time yet. :smalltongue:

(I've doing the same thing though, sooo...)

Pfff, I met my last gf AT a session of D&D.

Hiding your hobbies only makes it worse/more hilarious when they do find out. Look, I play all the time, and I'd tease you if I knew you in person and found out you'd been hiding your roleplaying habit.

And it's not like D&D is that obscure...I'm in my current 7th Sea larp because I overheard people talking about it at Dennys and struck up a conversation. Don't fear the "that's wierd". Embrace it. If you've got the cha mod to pull it off, unusual activities become fantastic conversation topics. If you don't, well...train diplomacy.

Warlawk
2011-03-24, 01:34 PM
Then don't do it pBp, like what Surrealistik said: Virtual tabletop + Skype + Myth-Weavers for keeping track of sheets. It is as close as you can get to playing IRL as you're going to get.

One of the issues I've had with this though is my players think the dice rollers are out to get them.

Dice rollers are just as much "out to get you" as physical dice are. Which is to say the evil little buggers want your blood! :smallfurious: Mine like to lull me into a false sense of security and then bring me crashing down.

That is to say, against mooks I tend to be a force of nature. I crit left and right, generally pulling absurd damage rolls and such. Whenever it's a critical fight I botch all over the place and generally end up being as much liability as boon to the party. Makes for some great stories though, which is far better than "winning" so in reality it's actually a pretty good thing, but still funny!

On topic for the quote though, yeah Maptools or something similar and a voice chat program are certainly great options, doesn't sound like it will work for the OP though.



Warlawk, and others who say that they won't or can't do PbP, could you please explain your reasons why? If it's because of any problems with DMing or anything the whole point of this thread is to figure out how to overcome them.

I'm sure there are other people like me, but it seems to be increasingly rare as time goes on and digital communication becomes more prevalent. E-mail, text, forums and even talking on the phone are mediums for exchanging information. That's it. There is no personal interaction, there is no personal engagement. It is a medium for exchanging information and that's it. There is no feeling at all that I'm "getting together with the buds" or anything like it. It simply does not engage me in the same way as speaking face to face does. That makes it almost impossible to get that true roleplay experience. I'm not roleplaying with you, I'm just telling you what this character is doing. It's a fine distinction I guess but there is simply no sense of engagement with the character or other players/dm because of the medium.

crimson77
2011-03-26, 02:12 PM
If the problem is really only on the players' end, then there's not much I can do about it. But I have to look into my end, or I don't feel I'm making an effort to improve things.

I think this is a great way to start, consider both sides. I know that for myself it has been a transition moving from IRL to PBP.

I would suggest that you try playing in some other games to get a sense of what works in PBP and what does not. It can be helpful to gather more data and this may helping your PBP DMing style.

I hope that helps.

Tyndmyr
2011-03-26, 02:27 PM
Dice rollers are just as much "out to get you" as physical dice are. Which is to say the evil little buggers want your blood! :smallfurious: Mine like to lull me into a false sense of security and then bring me crashing down.

Wierdly enough, I do perfectly fine on dice rollers. Last night, alternating between quite a few d20s, I rolled something like seven 2s or 4s in a roll. I announced that I was sufficiently unlucky that even if I rolled the giant D100, it too would be a 2. Someone said that was impossible and tossed it to me. I rolled it, and bam, two.

I think that broke the unlucky streak though, was fine after that.

Tavar
2011-03-26, 02:31 PM
Well, there is something to that if you use the Giantitp dice roller. It's code is flawed in some way, so it sometimes will have streaks. Also, you're first roll in a thread can sometimes set up a weird trend.

At least, that's what some of the more experienced/tech savvy people in the playground say.

crimson77
2011-03-26, 02:33 PM
Wierdly enough, I do perfectly fine on dice rollers.

I remember the day of PBPs on this site before the dice roller. Those were interesting days, never really knowing if people were cheating. Of course it still is possible to cheat with the dice roller.

Volthawk
2011-03-26, 02:54 PM
I remember the day of PBPs on this site before the dice roller. Those were interesting days, never really knowing if people were cheating. Of course it still is possible to cheat with the dice roller.

Yeah, but if you have instant email subscription, you can see when people delete and repost.

Cartigan
2011-03-26, 03:32 PM
Yeah, but if you have instant email subscription, you can see when people delete and repost.

Why not use Invisible Castle? I think if you register and have a campaign listed it records rolls.

Claudius Maximus
2011-03-26, 06:18 PM
I would suggest that you try playing in some other games to get a sense of what works in PBP and what does not. It can be helpful to gather more data and this may helping your PBP DMing style.

This sounds like a decent idea. I guess the problem with it though is that I have been involved with a bunch of pbp games, and they have all failed for disappearing DMs. That's the one problem I know I don't have, so I'm not sure I can learn much from that.

I'll likely end up involved with the next round of Legend playtesting, and I'll try to take notes on what flies with the players and what moves the games along.

If anyone is willing to offer presentation criticism here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188614) is a pbp game I DMed to completion (don't worry, it's short). It's more hack-and-slash and more railroady than my usual style because it's built off a playtest module, so criticism on those particular points is not really as relevant in this case. It's also a bit more wacky than the tone I usually take with my players. Otherwise, go nuts with the criticism.

crimson77
2011-03-26, 09:23 PM
This sounds like a decent idea. I guess the problem with it though is that I have been involved with a bunch of pbp games, and they have all failed for disappearing DMs. That's the one problem I know I don't have, so I'm not sure I can learn much from that.

Want to join my campaign? We had 3 players leave several months ago. If you are interested drop me a PM. We are playing Swords & Wizardry (a.k.a. OGL OD&D).

Claudius Maximus
2011-03-26, 10:59 PM
Thanks but I think I have enough systems to learn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191702) for the moment.

I think once I stop traveling to conferences/writing a book/doing finals/whatdidIgetmyselfinto I'll start some kind of game here, trying to attract the best crop of players I can. If any of them have a problem with my game then hopefully they will tell me why. I think running a game and gauging the responses of people who aren't trying to maintain a friendship with me would provide more useful data for me than playing.

Anyway that's a long-term thing. In the meantime none of my players have posted. I've been considering leaving almost every post with a direct prompt at this point, though I fear what that might do to player choice.

crimson77
2011-03-27, 10:03 PM
Thanks but I think I have enough systems to learn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191702) for the moment.
Just so you know S&W is super basic 3.5e rules made to emulate original d&d. They are simple to learn. However, I understand about being busy. Good luck with your future gaming.