[3.5]Help with an encounter.

[LansXero]

Hello everyone!

First, a generic question: How do you calculate an encounter's CR? I always thought CR meant "this monster is apropriate in encounters for players of this level" but my current players told me that when a monster is CR X that means that it, alone, on its own, is a challenge for four X level players. Is that so?

Also, what about multiple monsters? Do you add their CRs together until they add up to enough CR to equal the party's ECL? That would mean that a party of 8 level characters is "apropiately challenged" by four level 2/CR 2 monsters, and that seems wrong. So please help me figure that out.

Aditionally, are there any rules to adjust this for when parties only meet an encounter / day? Currently we are going to have shorter sessions and fewer days a week to play, so Id like if the story moves along faster and we spend less game-time in encounters, but it does alter balance and resource conservation quite a bit.

Finally, if people would be so kind as to make an example encounter that is CR apropriate for a 5 people party of ECL 8? Nothing too specific, basically just frost-themed. One or maybe two of them in one day, party is as follows:

- Goliath Barbarian 5/ Warhulk 2
- Electric Creature (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Electric_Creature_%283.5e_Template%29) Raptoran Druid 5/ Stormlord 2
- Crucian Monk 6
- Human Cleric 1 Paladin 4 Divine Crusader 2
- Mind Flayer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142724) 7

Thanks in advance!

[arkol]

monster is CR X that means that it, alone, on its own, is a challenge for four X level players. Is that so

Correct.

However CR does not "add up". Instead 2 cr5 critters is a cr7.

If you want to actually understand how it works you should read the relevant section in the DMG. If you just want to have an idea of what is the CR of a bunch of guys together use the encounter calculator in the d20srd.

[Talakeal]

The theory is that a monster is about equal in power to a player of the same level as its CR, assuming average power level. This means 1 on 1 there is a 50 / 50% chance of the player dying, which is obviously too lethal for a game.

For a party, there is almost no chance of losing to a single monster with CR equal to their level, but the combat will take a few rounds and will consume about 20% of a parties resources (HP, spells per day, etc).

Each CR above the party level should take about an extra 20%, and a CR equal to level +4 monster should consume about 100%, thus making the monster equal in power to a the party, with a 50 / 50 chance of the party being defeated. So CR = to level +3 is what you would generally want for a single encounter per day, maybe +4 or 5 in a high power party or for a climactic boss battle where you really want to challenge them.

Doubling the number of monsters usually adds +2 to the CR. So if an ogre is CR 3, two ogres is 5, four ogres 7, eight ogres 9, and so on. But the book tells you to eyeball it, as it breaks down at higher levels when the monsters can't really hurt the players no matter their numbers and one area spell can take them all out.

Obviously, the monsters in the book are designed against a balanced party of four with low to medium optimization levels, so feel free to throw a bit more at them if they are in a 5 player party and using non core powers or somewhat optimized builds.

[Keld Denar]

Why do your own math, when the computer can do your math for you? (http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20encountercalculator.htm)

CR is CR is CR. EL is what you use to balance encounters. One CR5 creature is EL 5, meaning that it should consume ~20% of 4 level 5 characters' resources. Two CR5 creatures are EL 7, which is EL +2 from the party, and is considered a "dangerous" encounter which should consume ~50% of a party's daily resources.

When you give XP, its based on CR though. Thus, 2 CR 5s may be EL 7, but you give XP as 2x a CR5, not 1x a CR7.

Make sense?

[Gavinfoxx]

I second that link! Put in the level and number of your player characters, and muck around with the monster levels, seeing what it says.

[LansXero]

For a party, there is almost no chance of losing to a single monster with CR equal to their level,

Yeah, and I think that is a problem. Me and my original party played a lot of MMOs before starting DnD and grew to hate "trash", as in, irrelevant fights that were only put there as a pacing mechanism to tire you down before the boss / relevant fight. As such, Im not really comfortable putting in 4 encounters a day unless I can find a valid story reason for them to come spaced out as such.


So CR = to level +3 is what you would generally want for a single encounter per day, maybe +4 or 5 in a high power party or for a climactic boss battle where you really want to challenge them.

Thank you, that helps calculate things.



Obviously, the monsters in the book are designed against a balanced party of four with low to medium optimization levels, so feel free to throw a bit more at them if they are in a 5 player party and using non core powers or somewhat optimized builds.

Any help with a frosty encounter for my party? :D Ill be checking out books now anyways, but I can always use ideas.

[aboyd]

Finally, if people would be so kind as to make an example encounter that is CR apropriate for a 5 people party of ECL 8? Nothing too specific, basically just frost-themed.
Here is a CR 9/EL 9 monster, frost-themed:

http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/Monsters.php?ID=383

That should give them a run for their money, but it probably won't kill any of them. Using super-high CR single monsters is usually dangerous, as they might have super-attacks that your PCs cannot withstand. So to make it more dangerous, let's simply have multiple monsters. Try 3 of these monsters:

http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/Monsters.php?ID=261

That's a young adult white dragon, with a CR/EL of 8. Two would be a EL of 10, and four would be a EL of 12. With 3 of them, it's a pretty dangerous fight, but survivable. It's similar to the "only one fight a day" you were hoping for. Odds are good that by the end of the fight, no PC will have spells left, and most will be wounded (perhaps severely).

[LansXero]

Thank you for the example! Checking out what has been said so far, Ive put them against 4 Ice Mephits (CR 3 for 1, so 5 for 2 and 7 for 4), an Elder Ice Paraelemental (CR 11 aprox. so adding a CR 7 to it should make it CR 12) and a Frost Worm (CR12 so adding another CR12 to it should make the total a CR 14 encounter). Are my calculations right?

Effective party level (counting the ignored level adjustment as +1 to their ECL): 5x8=40/4 = ECL 10, so it should go in line with the CR+4 guideline for a nova/only once a day type of encounter :D

[aboyd]

Frost Worm (CR12 so adding another CR12 to it should make the total a CR 14 encounter).
For your game, my impression would be that 2 CR 12 monsters (total of EL 14) should probably end with at least 1 PC dead. I could be wrong, especially if they really only get 1 battle a day and are fully rested before the fight. Be careful. Good luck.