Help with a binder build

[Trayan]

I will be playing a binder (ToM) in an Eberron campaign, starting at level 2. Other players are Warforged Fighter, a multi-class cleric/wizard, and an artificer (artificer is a support-only character being played by the DM to help out considering we only have 3 players and we are starting at low level).
Anyway, I've read through the Binder and Anima mage handbooks, and I have been digging through forums for ideas as well.
I definitely want to take KoSS or Anima mage (or possibly both), and I'm open to multi-classing as well.
I know the Binder has plenty of flexibility in changing roles each day, but I'm looking for a direction to take this character. Basically, I want to take the right feats/classes/etc. to have some specialization in a role that would work well given our party makeup, while having something to fall back on if I happen to have bound vestiges that aren't ideal for a given scenario (or I'm waiting on the 1/5 round abilities). I'm not trying to come up with a broken build at all, just a useful and playable build that will work well with the party.
Rolled stats are: 17,16,14,13,12,10.
Any thoughts on multi-classing, feat build, stat distribution would be appreciated.

[MammonAzrael]

Well the biggest question, I feel, is what is the character like? What would be consistent with his personality and history?

I looks like your group is going to need a skill monkey and party face. The tank and caster rolls are...sorta filled. I'd start there.

[Trayan]

Well the biggest question, I feel, is what is the character like? What would be consistent with his personality and history?

I looks like your group is going to need a skill monkey and party face. The tank and caster rolls are...sorta filled. I'd start there.

Well, the basic concept for my character is this: the character believes his family is "cursed" in some way (family members have died mysteriously or disappeared, etc.) He's trying to use binding to get information about the "curse", what happened to family members, etc.

Party face won't be too difficult, with cha as a key stat and bonuses from vestiges. Skill monkey will be a little harder, especially with 2+ int skills per level, but could be covered to some degree with certain vestige abilities or some cross-classing.

Realistically, I think I could focus on melee or ranged for combat, but there seem to be many more melee-focused vestiges than ranged type vestiges.

The DM is good about making sure we can handle encounters, especially at low levels. I think my biggest concern is remaining effective in whatever role I work on, especially during the levels when binder doesn't give very much.

[WinWin]

You don't need a high Charisma unless you plan on making good pacts, multiclassing or social skills are a high priority, I would probably put a 13 there unless it is needed. Constitution should be fairly high, at least a 14. Intelligence will help with skills, handy to have if you plan on qualifying for multiple prestige classes.

Other advice depends largely on the role you expect to be filling. Stealth, Social, Mellee or Ranged all have different requirements. You may be able to competantly fill one or two of those roles at a time as a low level Binder, but not all of them at once.

Anima Mage can be decent, but can take some focus away from your Binder abilities. Wizard, Sorcerer, Bard, Duskblade, Beguiler or Dread Necromancer all have a 3 or 4 level investment before they can qualify. a casting prestige class like Suel Arcanamach requires only 2 levels, but has a fairly hefty feat and skill requirement. Consider if you want casting to be supplementing your abilities, or intrinsic to your concept.

[Devmaar]

I'd advise KotSS over Anima Mage for 2 reasons:

You'll feel like a caster, not a binder
Binder/Wizard/Anima Mage is a much better Wizard than Wizard/Cleric/Mystic Theurge


You can still fill any role you like, depending on your choice of favoured Vestige.

[Thurbane]

If you want to go Anima Mage, I'd recommend a 1 or 2 level dip into Sorc (or another CHA based spont. caster, like Dread Necro), with the Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell feats to qualify for 2nd level spells.

KotSS is an awesome PrC, and there's almost no reason not to take it for a pure Binder. Try to snag some kind of natural, martial or exotic weapon proficiency so that Weapon Focus isn't a total waste - Outsider will get you full MWP, Elf will get you some free MWPs, and something like Warforged will get you a natural attack.

[Trayan]

Hmm... Any thoughts on a 1 or 2 level dip in fighter for proficiencies, BAB and feats in a KoSS build? Or possibly a dip into swordsage if the DM allows the level 1 class feature to count for the weapon focus requirement of KoSS? Or would that hurt binder progression too much?

[mootoall]

Well, I dunno how opposed to homebrew you/your DM are, but a great project on these boards was the Midnight Occultist PrC, which was a dual progressor for Meldshaping and Soul Binding. Totemist 2/Binder 1/Midnight Occultist X/KotSS Y might be something you want to look in to.

[Thurbane]

Hmm... Any thoughts on a 1 or 2 level dip in fighter for proficiencies, BAB and feats in a KoSS build? Or possibly a dip into swordsage if the DM allows the level 1 class feature to count for the weapon focus requirement of KoSS? Or would that hurt binder progression too much?
Personally, I wouldn't do it. Binding progression is too important to any Binder. However, if you have an idea what level this character will go to, it's still quite possible to bind the highest level vestiges while taking a 1 or 2 level dip into another class. You'll only ever be able to bind 3 at once, though...

[Zaq]

You don't need a high Charisma unless you plan on making good pacts, multiclassing or social skills are a high priority, I would probably put a 13 there unless it is needed. Constitution should be fairly high, at least a 14. Intelligence will help with skills, handy to have if you plan on qualifying for multiple prestige classes.

Binders do use CHA for save DCs. If you plan on using any abilities that offer saves (and Binders do have a good few of them . . . they're not like Incarnates, who technically have soulmelds that require saves, but nobody uses them because they tend to be terrible), you'll want a decent CHA, at least in the 14 or 16 range before items.

[Thurbane]

On a tangent: how would you go about making a skillmonkey Binder build?

I was thinking something like Rogue 2/Binder 5/Uncanny Trickster 3/Legacy Champion 10. It will get 15th level Binding, and with Improved Binding that will get up to 3x 8th level vestiges...

[Zaq]

On a tangent: how would you go about making a skillmonkey Binder build?

I was thinking something like Rogue 2/Binder 5/Uncanny Trickster 3/Legacy Champion 10. It will get 15th level Binding, and with Improved Binding that will get up to 3x 8th level vestiges...

"Skillmonkey" is an extraordinarily broad term. There are quite a few ways to approach it.

That said, your build is cute.

[Akal Saris]

Personally, I'd go with a melee build, assuming the artificer and wiz/cleric are both mostly ranged. Plus many more good vestiges support melee combat.

I don't think a dip outsider of binder would be a very good idea, because a lot of the fun in playing a binder is the variety of vestiges you can play around with, and you don't have any "must-have" feats that fighter will give you.

Good luck!

[subject42]

If you want to play up the cursed aspect, get an aberrant Dragonmark and bind Zceryll at your earliest opportunity.

That gives you nice battlefield control through summons and the bolts of madness, too.

[Thurbane]

"Skillmonkey" is an extraordinarily broad term. There are quite a few ways to approach it.

That said, your build is cute.
Well, I usually use Skillmonkey to mean a character with a lot of skill points and a lot of different skills to chose from. Usually (but not always) with Trapfinding.

[Trayan]

Thanks for the advice everyone. It was a big help in figuring out where I want to go with this character.
I wanted to get some feedback on attributes, feats, and skill points.
I'm planning on going binder X/KotSS 5. I'll go straight binder until I am high enough level to choose a good patron vestige (I'm leaning toward Chupoclops right now, but I haven't decided for sure yet), then 5 levels of KotSS. After that, maybe back to binder levels to finish the build.
I'm planning to focus on melee. There are way too many really good melee vestige abilities to ignore. Plus, melee ability will be good to fall back on if I have a less than optimal vestige bound in a particular situation.
I'm thinking of taking feats for charging, and possibly grappling or trip attacks. So, the obvious feats I'm considering are Power Attack, Imp. Bull Rush, and Shock trooper (for charging). Taking Combat Expertise and Imp. Trip could be useful also.
I definitely want to take the important binder feats: Imp. Binding (since we start at level 2), and eventually Ignore Special Requirements. Expel Vestige, Rapid Pact Making, and the Favored Vestige feats are also on the table.

For attributes, I have 17,16,14,13,12,10. We are allowed to shift up to 4 attribute points around, but the attributes must be from 8 to 18, and a max of 2 scores of 18. If I am focusing on melee, I'm thinking that Wis will be a dump stat, Con and Cha will be important, and Str will be good too (I'm planning more on Str based melee, rather than Dex based). So, I'm guessing Dex and Int will be less important (although some Int for skills will probably be needed).

Anyway, if anyone has input on attributes, feat selection, or anything else for this build, I would appreciate it.