Duel progression Prcs

[Epsilon Rose]

I was thinking about making a character using a dual progression prc, but as I thought about it I realized I had no idea how to do it effectively or what to do after I'd used all 10 levels. Does anybody have any good tips for this sort of thing or a good hand book to point to?

P.S. It might be worth mentioning that I was hoping to cross binder with some kind is psion (probably an ardent or stp erudite). I could go with sorc or wiz but I don't think I really what to deal with that many spells.

[Keld Denar]

Ardent multiclasses nicely due to the fact that Ardent powers are based of ML rather than class level. That means that a simple Practiced Manifester feat will offset the loss of 4 full Ardent levels.

What do you want to duel progression with? I mean, there's Cerebromancer and Psychic Theurge to duel psionics with arcane and divine casting respectively, but there's a few other things. I dunno if there is a duel psionics/binding PrC, but you could probably adapt Anima Mage. Likewise, Eldritch Theurge for Warlock/Psionic.

There's also some homebrew. Eldariel made a really good psionic/ToB blend PrC called Ephemeral Blade. It works really great with Ardent using the Freedom Mantle.

[MammonAzrael]

Well in a general way, after finishing 10 levels of a dual-advance PrC, you either advance in another dual-advance PrC, or you focus on the side that is more central to the concept of your character.

Other than that, Keld Denar is right. :smallsmile: And a binder/psion mix, I think you're going to have to use homebrew PrCs, of which there should be several.

[Kuma Kode]

Yeah, the unfortunate part of Tome of Magic is that is has no support outside that book, aside from a few token web expansions. Since there are no psionic/binding prestige classes in there, that means there are none. Homebrew is your best bet, but rejoice! This is the right place for quality homebrew.

[Elric VIII]

Anima Mage seems like it would convert well to a manifesting class. You use your superior mental control to influence the vestiges. Plus, there was a divine adaptation suggested in one of the WotC articles, so there's precedent for changing it.

Ardent is a great way to go with it because of the Practiced Manifester trick, and you only need a few levels of Binder with the Practiced Binder feat. Plus, I can see some parallels between psionic mantles and vestiges.

Also, you might be interested in some psionic vestiges (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070119a).

[Psyren]

And a binder/psion mix, I think you're going to have to use homebrew PrCs, of which there should be several.


Since there are no psionic/binding prestige classes in there, that means there are none. Homebrew is your best bet, but rejoice! This is the right place for quality homebrew.


Anima Mage seems like it would convert well to a manifesting class. You use your superior mental control to influence the vestiges. Plus, there was a divine adaptation suggested in one of the WotC articles, so there's precedent for changing it.

*Cough*

May I direct all of your attentions to ToM pg. 53?


Anima mages needn't exploit vestiges to gain power - the vestiges could volunteer the added powers to an anima mage in recognition of his spellcasting ability. You could also relax the prerequisites to open this prestige class to any spellcaster - or even a psionic character.

While not fully fleshed out, Anima Psions do have official, WotC support. Show that page to your DM(s) and start crunching.

[MammonAzrael]

*Cough*

May I direct all of your attentions to ToM pg. 53?

While not fully fleshed out, Anima Psions do have official, WotC support. Show that page to your DM(s) and start crunching.

Valid point. Does that mean I can roll up an arcane swordsage too? :smallwink:

Seriously though, a psionic anima mage should be just fine.

[RaggedAngel]

Valid point. Does that mean I can roll up an arcane swordsage too? :smallwink:

Seriously though, a psionic anima mage should be just fine.

To quote the Tome of Battle:


If you prefer, you could instead emphasize the magical talents of the swordsage by giving the swordsage the ability to learn arcane spell in the place of maneuvers of equivalent level. In general... the spell is "cast" as if it were a martial maneuver. If this is the case you should remove the classes light armor proficiency and reduce the swordsages hit die to a d6.

[Kuma Kode]

While not fully fleshed out, Anima Psions do have official, WotC support. Show that page to your DM(s) and start crunching.

It's not that there's anything wrong with it, but having the book suggest refluffing or rehashing a class to fit a concept and actually having a class that fits the concept is not the same thing. "Support" in the context of my earlier post meant prestige classes, possibly spells, or alternate class features in other books. Binders, Shadowcasters, and Truenamers lack this, unlike most other classes which have smatterings of feats and prestige classes that can be found in other books. Reworking a class and having to make judgment calls as to how to change the abilities, as came up in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143915&highlight=psionic+binder) [Yora, Yuki_Akuma, Optimystik relevant], is not as easy or clear-cut as the Anima mage clause makes it sound.

But yes, Anima mage should be reworkable. Though if you're going to be doing homebrewy stuff, you might as well make a class specifically for psions/binders to take advantage of psionic-only mechanics. It's like a warlock dipping into a prestige class originally designed for arcane casters. He can take it, but he rarely benefits much from it.

[Epsilon Rose]

Would anyone be able to point me to a good homebrewed prc or perhaps one for binder/warlock.

Also any thoughts on the stat distribution on those? Normaly I'd try to grab a psionic class that uses the same stat but the only one I know of is wilder and that doesn't really fit and it's not like there's some other binder class to choose from.

[Thurbane]

There's a decent Binder/Warlock PrC in the homebrew section here somewhere...can't find a link right now. I was working on one myself a while back, but never got it finished.

Anima Mage can progress Invocations and Eldritch Blast (as well as Binding), but you'll need arcane spells to qualify in the first place.

As for what to do with dual-progression PrCs after 10 levels, you can advance them with Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster. The RAW on this is pretty solid, but some DMs won’t allow it pre-epic.

[Psyren]

Valid point. Does that mean I can roll up an arcane swordsage too? :smallwink:

Of course, so long as you crunch it out, as I stated. :smalltongue:


It's not that there's anything wrong with it, but having the book suggest refluffing or rehashing a class to fit a concept and actually having a class that fits the concept is not the same thing. "Support" in the context of my earlier post meant prestige classes, possibly spells, or alternate class features in other books. Binders, Shadowcasters, and Truenamers lack this, unlike most other classes which have smatterings of feats and prestige classes that can be found in other books. Reworking a class and having to make judgment calls as to how to change the abilities, as came up in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143915&highlight=psionic+binder) [Yora, Yuki_Akuma, Optimystik relevant], is not as easy or clear-cut as the Anima mage clause makes it sound.

I appreciate that it's not clear-cut how to stat this adaptation out; my point though, was that making an "Anima Psion" is not full-on homebrew. The details may be, but the concept itself is official, in black-and-white, on the page.

But honestly, I don't think it's as hard as previous discussions make it seem. Just by having a class that advances manifesting and soul binding 10/10, you're already ahead of 75% of psionic PrCs out there - it's sad, but true. Converting the class features isn't even necessary to make it good. So if your DM is unwilling to work with you to stat something out, you can get away with playing it as written (unlike, say, the USS) with all the vestige metamagic stuff ignored/nonfunctional, and still have a workable class. Hell, most theurges in 3.5 don't even have class features anyway.

[mootoall]

If you're interested in Binding/Meldshaping there's the Midnight Occultist, one of my favourite homebrews on this site.