Warlock/Hellfire Warlock Question

[olejars]

With the hellfire warlock, you also gain a level in warlock for purposes of Eldritch blast damage and invocations known. But what happens when you go back into the warlock class and finish it out?

The build I'm going for is a Star Elf Binder 1/Warlock 16/Hellfire 3. Does that mean effectively with eldritch blast and invocations are concerned I'm level 19, correct?

[Noneoyabizzness]

Yup pretty much

[olejars]

Sweet, thanks for the quick reply.

[MammonAzrael]

My understanding is...yes and no.

You will have the eldritch blast and number of invocations as a Warlock 19.

However, those three levels of Hellfire Warlock do not advance the level of invocation you can learn. So assuming your level progression was: Binder 1 -> Warlock 11 -> Hellfire Warlock 3 -> Warlock 5, you would not gain access to Dark invocations until 20th level. So you would only have a single Dark invocation, at the end of your career.

[Jallorn]

My understanding is...yes and no.

You will have the eldritch blast and number of invocations as a Warlock 19.

However, those three levels of Hellfire Warlock do not advance the level of invocation you can learn. So assuming your level progression was: Binder 1 -> Warlock 11 -> Hellfire Warlock 3 -> Warlock 5, you would not gain access to Dark invocations until 20th level. So you would only have a single Dark invocation, at the end of your career.

I think this is RAI, I've always seen it ruled that you learn the same levels as you normally would.

[MammonAzrael]

You mean RAW? And you've always seen it ruled that you learn the levels you normally would? :smalltongue:

[Kuma Kode]

Like with spells, the level of invocation you know is increased by prestige classes that also increase your invoker level and invocations known. Enlightened Spirit is notable in that it does not do this, immediately making it one of the worst warlock prestige classes.

EDIT: Otherwise, Mystic Theurge would result in you knowing only 2nd level spells, since it only says it increases spells per day and caster level, not granting new levels. Increases in spell level are wrapped into "spells per day" just like increases in grade are wrapped into "invocations known."

[Telonius]

You mean RAW? And you've always seen it ruled that you learn the levels you normally would? :smalltongue:

Yes, it's RAW, in the same way that Monk non-proficiency in unarmed strike is RAW: an obvious editing mistake ignored by everybody in actual gaming situations.

[MammonAzrael]

As far as I am aware, that is a (logical) house rule. The section of page 18 of Complete Arcane the details how a warlock interacts with PrCs that advance casting states that they do not gain any class abilities, but he does gain an increased caster level with his invocations and increased damage with his eldritch blast. A warlock also gains new invocations known as though he had gained a level in warlock.

However, the only place that specifies when a warlock gains access to new types of invocation is on their class table, which, by RAW, I believe means that they are not advanced.

I realize this is a very picky and narrow reading, and likely not RAI. I would love to be proven wrong, as I've always found it strange, but as far as I can tell that is how it technically works. The best I could figure was that it was supposed to be an incentive to stay a single-class warlock: only they get access to the more powerful invocations.

[Kuma Kode]

Eldritch blast is also a function of caster level (any prestige class that gives +1 invoker/spellcaster level increases eldritch blast as well), but is placed on the table for convenience. Likewise, because the warlock lacks an invocations known table, the grades are placed on the table for convenience.

The grades are described under the "Invocations" header, just like spell levels are described under the "Spells Per Day" header. Thus, it is sufficient to say "such and such class increases spells per day/invocations known as if such and such had gained a class in whatever" because spell levels and invocation grades are already included under those header.

[MammonAzrael]

The section on PrCs specifically mentions that eldritch blast damage increases.

The text on eldritch blast says:


An eldritch blast deals 1d6 points of damage at 1st level and increases in power as the warlock rises in level.

That is the only mention of increasing damage in the text and not on the table. Nowhere does it say that eldritch blast damage is a function of caster level (the text details the CL of an EB, but one is not the function of another). The increases are not placed on the class table for convenience, rather that is the only place the damage increase can be found. But it doesn't matter because the section on page 18 specifically notes that eldritch blast damage is increased.

If you read through the "Invocations" section of text on page 7 you will not find the grades described. You will see:


The four grades of invocations, in order of their relative power, are least, lesser, greater, and dark. A warlock begins with knowledge of one invocation, which must be of the lowest grade (least). As a warlock gains levels, he learns new invocations, as summarized on Table 1-1 and described below.

The description that follows deals solely with trading in one invocation for another. There is no further mention of a warlock gaining access to new types of invocation.

The PrC text does not state that it advances invocations. It only states that he gains an increased caster level when using invocations, and he gains new invocations known at these PrC levels as though he had gained a level in warlock. That is not advancing the more general "Invocations" section of the warlock, since "Invocations Known" is one column of their class table.

[Kuma Kode]

The PrC text does not state that it advances invocations. It only states that he gains an increased caster level when using invocations, and he gains new invocations known at these PrC levels as though he had gained a level in warlock. That is not advancing the more general "Invocations" section of the warlock, since "Invocations Known" is one column of their class table.

Eldritch blast is specifically called out because it is not an invocation. I guess if you read it extremely strict, "invocations known" refers only to the numbers on the table and not to anything else relating to knowing invocations, but, like with Spells Per Day, I assume that also includes new levels of spells or new grades of invocation since it says "As if you had gained a level of warlock," which may or may not include grade depending on how strictly your DM reads and how he interprets what he reads. As has been said, a strict RAW reading usually comes up with some pretty stupid results.

Though it doesn't say it doesn't, either. It's like the whole acid ignoring hardness thing. RAW is actually somewhat ambiguous on the matter.

[MammonAzrael]

...since it says "As if you had gained a level of warlock," ...

Hmmm...This may be valid. I guess the argument is ultimately futile, as Complete Arcane isn't the best written book. I think the issue is too murky to make a definitive RAW interpretation. You have successfully argued me into "ambiguous" territory. :smalltongue:

And, like the monk, I don't think any DM will really ever enforce it that way. Still, best to check. :smallbiggrin:

I do want to point out, though, that the spells per day and spells known catagories include all the spells levels, so that does function as RAW without needing an assumption. :smallsmile:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

My understanding is...yes and no.

You will have the eldritch blast and number of invocations as a Warlock 19.

However, those three levels of Hellfire Warlock do not advance the level of invocation you can learn. So assuming your level progression was: Binder 1 -> Warlock 11 -> Hellfire Warlock 3 -> Warlock 5, you would not gain access to Dark invocations until 20th level. So you would only have a single Dark invocation, at the end of your career.

Wrong.

HFW advances spellcasting, which advances both EB and Invocations Known.

You're 19th level for purposes of EB and Invocations.

[MammonAzrael]

Did you read the following discussion? Because I did point out that "Invocations Known" is a column on the warlock class table that is not connected to the the grade of invocation a warlock can learn.

[Kuma Kode]

I don't usually like strict RAW discussions because you get null returned as an answer too often.

So... to answer the question...

Yes, they stack with the exception of new grades, which may vary depending upon your DM's interpretation.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Did you read the following discussion? Because I did point out that "Invocations Known" is a column on the warlock class table that is not connected to the the grade of invocation a warlock can learn.

Did you read page 18 of Complete Arcane?


Levels of Prestige Classes that provide +1 level of spellcasting effectively stack with the warlock's level to determine his Eldritch Blast damage and his Eldritch Blast caster level. A warlock also gains new invocations known at these prestige class levels as though he had gained a level in the warlock class

'as though he gained a level in the warlock class'. As in, yes, he does get them.

[Kuma Kode]

'as though he gained a level in the warlock class'. As in, yes, he does get them.

Yes, but where the discussion ground to a halt was whether or not that means grade and number or simply number. It's ambiguous, like a lot of things that trigger RAW discussions.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yes, but where the discussion ground to a halt was whether or not that means grade and number or simply number. It's ambiguous, like a lot of things that trigger RAW discussions.

On page 7, grades of invocations are tied into the warlock's level for using invocations.

On page 18, +1 spellcasting increases effective warlock level for invocations.

The supposition that you don't get higher grades of invocations really doesn't have anything backing it up, other than not reading the actual description.

[The Cat Goddess]

If you do not assume that a Warlock gets access to higher level Invocations through PrC advancement (just like a Wizard gets access to higher level spells through PrC advancement), then it is insanely stupid for a Warlock to PrC.

Clearly not "as intended" for the class.

[thompur]

Shneekey's right.

[MammonAzrael]

I agree that is is a stupid way of ruling the warlock.
I believe ShneekeyTheLost is generalizing, and thus losing the connection between RAW and RAI.


On page 7, grades of invocation are tied to table 1-1, as class features under the "Special" colummn. Nowhere else.

On page 18, +1 level of spellcasting stacks with warlock levels for only the following: eldritch blast damage and eldritch blast caster level. That is it. The next sentence, which does not fall under the "stacks with warlock levels" clause, states that he gains new invocations known at the PrC levels as though he had gained a level in warlock. Invocations Known is a separate column on the warlock class table, unrelated to the grades of invocation one is able to learn (which are class features, something expressly not advanced by +1 spellcasting).

The question is whether "invocations known" refers to the text under "Invocations" or if it refers to the class table progression.

We can extrapolate the intent from looking at stat blocks of PrCs like Eldritch Disciple (though WotC example character are notorious for not following the rules). However, that extrapolation does not equal clear RAW.

I have already admitted that I feel the text is too ambiguous to determine a clear RAW without official intervention.

[Kuma Kode]

Clearly not "as intended" for the class.

Previously we were discussing RAW, not RAI. Whether or not something is stupid does not matter for how it functions.

The truth is, it's somewhat murky. While few would actually rule that sorcerers don't get new spells known or that warlocks get shafted into a lower grade by their prestige class, this doesn't mean that this is what the actual rules say or what was intended.

As Enlightened Spirit shows, Wizards of the Coast DID think there could be legitimate prestige class options for a warlock that don't increase grade. This is because Enlightened Spirit increases nothing.

The wording of the spells/invocation section is somewhat ambiguous as to what "as a warlock" actually entails, and that's what we just got done discussing.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I agree that is is a stupid way of ruling the warlock.
I believe ShneekeyTheLost is generalizing, and thus losing the connection between RAW and RAI.


On page 7, grades of invocation are tied to table 1-1, as class features under the "Special" colummn. Nowhere else.

On page 18, +1 level of spellcasting stacks with warlock levels for only the following: eldritch blast damage and eldritch blast caster level. That is it. The next sentence, which does not fall under the "stacks with warlock levels" clause, states that he gains new invocations known at the PrC levels as though he had gained a level in warlock. Invocations Known is a separate column on the warlock class table, unrelated to the grades of invocation one is able to learn (which are class features, something expressly not advanced by +1 spellcasting).

The question is whether "invocations known" refers to the text under "Invocations" or if it refers to the class table progression.

We can extrapolate the intent from looking at stat blocks of PrCs like Eldritch Disciple (though WotC example character are notorious for not following the rules). However, that extrapolation does not equal clear RAW.

I have already admitted that I feel the text is too ambiguous to determine a clear RAW without official intervention.


Ahem...


The four grades of invocations, in order of their relative power, are least, lesser, greater, and dark. A warlock begins with knowledge of one invocation which must be of the lowest grade (least). As a warlock gains levels, he learns new invocations, as summarized on Table 1-1 and described below. A list of available invocations can be found following this class description, and a complete description of each invocation can be found in Chapter 4 of this book.

At any level when a warlock learns a new invocation, he can also replace an invocation he already knows with another invocation of the same or lower grade. At 6th level, a warlock can replace a least invocation he knows with a different least invocation (in addition to learning a new invocation, which could be either least or lesser). So no, by RAW, you gain warlock level for invocations, you get higher tier invocations.

Page 18, I have already quoted.

So yes. By RAW, gaining +1 level of existing spellcasting class DOES grant access to higher tier invocations.

[MammonAzrael]

That only applies if you assume that "A warlock also gains new invocations known at these prestige class levels as though he had gained a level in the warlock class" is referring to the text of the warlock class on page 7 regarding invocations. It could be referring to the column on the warlock class table labeled "Invocations Known," which is different.