Was my DM right about this outcome?

[Sims]

The Problem

I started fantasizing about being this uber Psion/Wizard/Cleric level 95 guy. Then I thought about crafting my dream Construct, I named "Sir Pwnage"

He was a Gargantuan sized Adamantine construct, with a Great axe. He looked like a Black Knight (complete with Chaotic Good, Intelligent Full Plate, and an Animated Lawful Good Intelligent shield.) He also had 2 giant horns on his helmet-like head, and a red cape. :3

Unlike most Constructs, (and through cheating/rule bendin, and imaginative boredness) Sir Pwnage had an Intelligence score of 13. Meaning he had feats, and a mind of his own. (He also has a cool voice because I fanboyed over his impossible creation <:D)

I had him crafted to kill demons. And was hoping with the good aligned equipments influence, he would become good too. I also made it so I could operate him from the inside.

His Stats:
Hp 300d10+60
Str 78
Dex 10
Con -
Int 13
Wis 13
Cha 10

AC Total came out to 156. With careful feat selection, his DR was in the 60s and his energy resistance was too.

He also has Fast Healing 35. (We decided to say my character had been studying the Fast Healing of Retrievers.)

I won't bore you with the feats and go straight to the issue. My DM thinks Sir Pwnage would see me as a threat since I created him. And kill me. I argued, aren't all Constructs supposed to obey the creator?

So then I asked, what would happen if I sent him to the Abyssal Plane to kill a bunch of demons, and then returned to see him the next year?

My DM replied: Sir Pwnage will likely turn evil and send demons after you since he pretty much runs the place now. Bet you regret giving him the +20 Holy Great Axe now?

I disagreed. He'd either be dead, or still hacking and slashing Balors left and right.

EDIT: Assume I've equipped him with a Ring of Virtuous Good.

[Vladislav]

Sir Pwnage had an Intelligence score of 13. Meaning he had feats, and a mind of his own.



I won't bore you with the feats and go straight to the issue. My DM thinks Sir Pwnage would see me as a threat since I created him. And kill me. I argued, aren't all Constructs supposed to obey the creator?
Not if they have a mind of their own, no. :smallbiggrin:

[Sims]

Not if they have a mind of their own, no. :smallbiggrin:

So would staying on Sir Pwnage's good side be impossible?

[Vladislav]

Possible, I guess. But don't say he has to like you. Mind of his own.

[Boci]

So would staying on Sir Pwnage's good side be impossible?

No, but it would not be guaranteed.

[Sims]

So what would I find after coming back a year later? :O

[Sinfonian]

Unlike most Constructs, (and through cheating/rule bendin, and imaginative boredness) Sir Pwnage had an Intelligence score of 13. Meaning he had feats, and a mind of his own.
...
I argued, aren't all Constructs supposed to obey the creator?
Well, I think Constructs obey their creators because they are mindless, you kinda solved that problem for him. I don't see anything that says you keep control over a non-mindless Construct after it is finished. At that point, he became an NPC, under the control of the DM. Intelligent items would only ever go so far as to pushing a character into following a particular path, especially with something immune to mind-affecting abilities.

That said, it is pretty much a jerk move on the DM's part. In my opinion, it would depend highly on under what circumstances you sent this intelligent, thinking being to the Abyss to go fight unceasing waves of demons. If it were forced or otherwise had no choice in the matter, I could see there being some bitterness and resentment, if not necessarily homicidal intent upon your return.

Edit: Ninja'ed HARD while being wordy.

[Boci]

So what would I find after coming back a year later? :O

If you sent him the Abyss? Probably what your DM described, unless he alters the CR of the inhabitance.

[gomipile]

The best way (rules-wise) I can think of to make it unlikely for this construct to rebel is to have him be your cohort. Then if you hold up your end of the friendship with your construct, things should go well unless your DM is really a <expletive>.

[Sims]

So would the Intelligent items not be able to influence him into "doing the right thing" and staying "Good" and not squeezing his fanboy creater? :D

[Eldariel]

So would the Intelligent items not be able to influence him into "doing the right thing" and staying "Good" and not squeezing his fanboy creater? :D

Sending anything alone in the Abyss will probably result in it dead or serving some (in this case) high-powered demonic entity. The whole "infinite number of Demons"-thingy along with an immense number of immensely intelligent and powerful beings across the layers would mean that any lone being would eventually get beaten to pulp.

So I don't think he'd be running the place. I also don't think he'd turn evil unless some being corrupts him. Note that Diplomacy would work just fine with him given he's intelligent so there's a way to get to his good side. And generally you can affect what kind of a construct you create; since it has a mind, I see no reason you couldn't craft him a CG personality.

[Marnath]

By the time you hit level 95, won't you pretty much have killed all the gods and everything living on the outer planes already?:smallconfused:

[Sims]

By the time you hit level 95, won't you pretty much have killed all the gods and everything living on the outer planes already?:smallconfused:

Of course not :3 XD

[Marnath]

Of course not :3 XD

But why not, you're like ECL 35 above most of the statted out gods I've ever seen. That's a lot.

[Amnestic]

I gotta say, if you reach level 95 and haven't attained enough followers to attain even Divine Rank 0, something went wrong >_>

[classy one]

I gotta say, if you reach level 95 and haven't attained enough followers to attain even Divine Rank 0, something went wrong >_>

While gaining followers is one suggested means of gaining godhood listed in the Gods book, canon of WotC, in the form of dragon magazine and modules, seems to support the idea of the divine spark. Meaning having the world worship you only make you cult leader, not a god. Look at the Blood of Vol, the lich is still just a lich despite all the followers she has obtained.

Back on topic, Sir pwnage is prolly around a CR 70 construct at the very least. He also has some ridiculous construct traits and high DR maybe a self repairing contingency spell on it? In one year it could still be standing if all it faced were non unique demons, although demons are numberous and powerful they generally live up to their chaotic nature and rarely make coordinate attacks that are needed to take down someone like Sir pwnage. This way the Blood wars have been going on for so long; the devils kill the demons by the hundreds because they just throw numbers at well trained and coordinated devils.

If facing someone like Orcus it could still prolly curb stomp him as well since you gave it +30 holy weapon made just to kill evil doers. In fact, it seems that the only ones that can stand are chance is a party of gods. So yes, your construct could survive one year in the abyss.

How would the construct react to spending a year in the abyss? Well that depends, was he built or conditioned to love killing demons? If so then he will likely conjuror to kill demons and love it. In which case your DM was wrong.

But if Sir pwnage hates the job, finds the acidic atmosphere to be depressing and you to be an insufferable jerkface, then I think your DM made the right call. You made an intelligent and set it loose in the most miserable place in the multiverse for one year, what did you expect to happen?

[Sims]

While gaining followers is one suggested means of gaining godhood listed in the Gods book, canon of WotC, in the form of dragon magazine and modules, seems to support the idea of the divine spark. Meaning having the world worship you only make you cult leader, not a god. Look at the Blood of Vol, the lich is still just a lich despite all the followers she has obtained.

Back on topic, Sir pwnage is prolly around a CR 70 construct at the very least. He also has some ridiculous construct traits and high DR maybe a self repairing contingency spell on it? In one year it could still be standing if all it faced were non unique demons, although demons are numberous and powerful they generally live up to their chaotic nature and rarely make coordinate attacks that are needed to take down someone like Sir pwnage. This way the Blood wars have been going on for so long; the devils kill the demons by the hundreds because they just throw numbers at well trained and coordinated devils.

If facing someone like Orcus it could still prolly curb stomp him as well since you gave it +30 holy weapon made just to kill evil doers. In fact, it seems that the only ones that can stand are chance is a party of gods. So yes, your construct could survive one year in the abyss.

How would the construct react to spending a year in the abyss? Well that depends, was he built or conditioned to love killing demons? If so then he will likely conjuror to kill demons and love it. In which case your DM was wrong.

But if Sir pwnage hates the job, finds the acidic atmosphere to be depressing and you to be an insufferable jerkface, then I think your DM made the right call. You made an intelligent and set it loose in the most miserable place in the multiverse for one year, what did you expect to happen?

Awesome post btw, but my only beef is would a Construct find the Abyss depressing? Aren't they suppose to be indiffrent to the surroundings? Or does having Int make him realize this?

[The Glyphstone]

Having a mind of his own means he will react like an intelligent being, regardless of his construct type. He can feel emotions just like a human can - if anything, he'll probably react to the Abyss just like whatever creature type you are would, since it was you who infused him with sentience.

[Thefurmonger]

Awesome post btw, but my only beef is would a Construct find the Abyss depressing? Aren't they suppose to be indiffrent to the surroundings? Or does having Int make him realize this?

This would be my call.

He has an Int, that gives him an oppinion. Frankly if someone stuck me in the abyss for a year I don't think "Friend" is what I would call him at the end.

[Sims]

This would be my call.

He has an Int, that gives him an oppinion. Frankly if someone stuck me in the abyss for a year I don't think "Friend" is what I would call him at the end.

Well, I've decided not to do that now XD

[Eldariel]

If facing someone like Orcus it could still prolly curb stomp him as well since you gave it +30 holy weapon made just to kill evil doers. In fact, it seems that the only ones that can stand are chance is a party of gods. So yes, your construct could survive one year in the abyss.

It only has high HP, AC, DR, energy resistances and possibly magic immunity. I don't see how that somehow makes the more powerful demonic deities with reality-bending magic unable to abolish it. I mean, a +30 Holy weapon is still only numbers; it doesn't help you if you cannot hit your adversary.

I mean, yeah, it's a strong creature much like a Tarrasque, but when you throw the infinite demons of the Abyss and some of the most powerful magical beings of the multiverse at it? They're gonna be able to take it down. Same would happen to a greater deity if it tried walking into the Abyss and clearing up the place.

[Dergmann]

In my opinion, it shouldnt be harboring any sort of murderous rage against you. Its made out of Good components, and created by what I assume is a good character. So when sent out on a demon hunting mission, theres no reason it would ally itself with Evil entities to seek revenge against another Good character. Since its a construct, should it not therefor have been conditioned to be, and remain, Good? Food for thought!

[Amnestic]

Having a mind of his own means he will react like an intelligent being, regardless of his construct type. He can feel emotions just like a human can - if anything, he'll probably react to the Abyss just like whatever creature type you are would, since it was you who infused him with sentience.

He's not really going to think "as a human" though. His nature - an immortal construct - is going to colour his perceptions somewhat even with a sapient brain capable of free choice.

[Noneoyabizzness]

You sent someone with at least a slightly above average intelligence into a chaotic he'll and said "see you next year"

Of course he'd be cross. Maybe not evil, but he wont be your fan.

[Peregrine]

(I'm going to approach this primarily from a fluff-and-roleplay perspective. Others can argue the numbers about a 95HD construct surviving in Hell.)

Intelligent constructs are not without precedent. Such things as the homunculus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/homunculus) or the gingerbread golem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10546572&postcount=18) are, at least as I imagine things to be, created with an innate urge to serve their creator. This does not preclude them "breaking their programming" and overcoming this urge, however.

(Ooh, I'm getting some fascinating roleplaying ideas, based around treating an intelligent construct's programming, which it doesn't want to obey any more, like a compulsive disorder...)

Now, intelligent items are also, in a sense, constructs with Int scores. So you've actually created a team of three intelligent constructs, two of which you've told us are definitely Good (LG and CG), and the third of which you seem to have assumed would be automatically N -- but let's say, for the sake of argument, that Sir Pwnage is created, or quickly becomes, Good. We'll round out the trifecta with him being NG.

Would your creation turn on you because you're a "threat"? No, of course not -- not right at first, that is, and not at all if you never give him reason to. Be a good master, and Sir Pwnage should happily serve you all the days of your epic life. (Unless he comes in contact with, or independently thinks up, any emancipationist philosophies. The CG full plate may have been a bad idea in this regard.)

So the million-gp question is: does sending the Epic Pwnage Trio into Hell, without you, count as being a "good master"? That's pretty dubious, in my opinion, at least from a third party's perspective. But let's assume that Sir Pwnage doesn't question his orders until after he's in Hell, if then.

If we assume you've created him with an urge to slay demons, stronger even than his instinct for self-preservation, then he will certainly be happy to go. Whether he stays that way largely depends on the outcome, of which there are two parts: Is Sir Pwnage strong enough to defeat all the powers of hell and send the lesser demons crawling down the deepest holes they can find? Is Sir Pwnage immune to, or will he be able to resist, any innate alignment-warping nature of the Lower Planes?

If (1) is not so, but assuming that Sir Pwnage would never (knowingly?) surrender and serve a demon, then he will do one of: die gloriously; die cursing you; run and hide, ashamed of failing you; run and hide, and hate you for putting him there. The "hating you" outcomes are more likely if he comes to view your actions as being morally wrong -- which, in my opinion, they really are if (1) is not true.

If (2) is not so, then he's going to go bad. If neither (1) nor (2) is true, then the result is either: one of the "hating you" outcomes above, or he becomes the slave of a demon lord (and still hates you) -- the "never serve a demon" assumption cannot hold if his alignment is in jeopardy. If (1) is true but (2) isn't, then you've just created the new Adamantine Prince of Hell. He whom you sent to destroy demons, became a demon.

[Sims]

Do you guys think he'd start trippin if I was giving him orders from inside of him? (Since I had him built specially that way.)

Oh, and I gave a bit of an edit to the first post.

[Amnestic]

Do you guys think he'd start trippin if I was giving him orders from inside of him? (Since I had him built specially that way.)



Fiction is a kinky little minx in that it goes both ways on such things. At such times though, I'd probably treat it like a slightly more violating mount order, with some sort of equivalent handle animal/ride check or the like. If at any point he found he could not disobey the orders you give him from inside, it'd probably ramp up how much he dislikes it massively. If your orders are more suggestions then it'd probably be fine, but if he can't disobey when you're inside I doubt he'd be very happy about it.

[The Glyphstone]

Alternatively, if you're inside him, that means you're also in the Abyss. Now you're at least fighting the demons together and sharing the risk.

[DwarfFighter]

I don't get it. Why level 95 and not level 96?

-DF

[Sims]

What would happen if I just set Sir Pwnage loose to do whatever he wanted? That CG Full Plate Might start talkin smack, but the LG Shield could cancel it out.

I don't think he'd go on a killing spree, but then again, most Constructs aren't ever set loose.

[The Glyphstone]

What's his alignment?

[Sims]

What's his alignment?

I think all Constructs are N/N. But since I gave him 2 Intelligent items (One CG the other LG) I was hoping it'd influence him to become NG.

Well, lets try both scenarios. One where hes NN and the other NG.

[Analytica]

I would say this depends on how you raised/programmed/taught your construct. If you are this epic monstrosity of arcane, psionic and divine might, you can easily instill whatever philosophy you want in the construct, and provide a moral framework able to interpret and relate to the circumstances of the Abyss.

If you did not... then I foresee the Adamantine Prince of Hell raging through the Abyss, with two very sad Good-aligned artifacts trying in vain to counter his maudlin emo nature. :smallbiggrin:

[Doktor Per]

He has a mind, it can be affected. What's his Will save like? How would he feel about a demon prince tossing a Mind Rape at him?

[Sims]

He has a mind, it can be affected. What's his Will save like? How would he feel about a demon prince tossing a Mind Rape at him?

Constructs are immune to mind effects. Including ones with intelligience scores.

[Peregrine]

I think all Constructs are N/N.

Not so. Retriever (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon#retriever): always CE. Homunculus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/homunculus): same as creator. And again, intelligent items are effectively constructs (DMG p.268), and they can certainly have alignments.

[Forbiddenwar]

Regarding intelligent item influence: What are their ego stats? Also being opposing alignments they may just try to destroy each other.

Much can happen over the course of time. My DM experience says create a probabily chart and then roll for outcome.
Off the top of my head:

1-50% Construct destroyed.
51-80% Construct evil now, makes for nice BBEG in next campaign
81-90% Construct avatar of good. Sworn to destroy you and all like you for abandoning the equivalent of 3 babies in the abyss.
91-97% Construct insane. Behaves as permanent insanity spell.
98-99% Construct likes you. Thank-you for a nice long vacation.
00% Construct is now a god. Roll to determine alignment.

Although, true to DM fashion, I'd roll in secret and then just pick my favorite outcome. Construct God here we come.