Who are the strongest Demons? (Not counting Gods) And their stats?

[Sims]

Isn't Asmodeous suppose to be the baddest of the bunch?

[arguskos]

Isn't Asmodeous suppose to be the baddest of the bunch?
The Lord of the Ninth is a Devil. :smallannoyed:

If we're talking about Demons, you want to look at either the few remaining Obyrith Lords (Pale Night and Dagon top that list, followed rapidly by Obox-ob) or the strongest of the current Demon Lords (Demogorgon, Grazz't, and Orcus top that list).

[Sims]

Awww crap! I should have just said Demon OR Devil. Ah well. I don't want to box an Abomination even though they are evil outsiders.

[Keld Denar]

Stats for Asmodeus:

Size/Type: Yes
Hit Dice: All of them
Initiative: Yes
Speed: Yes
Armor Class: Yes
Base Attack/Grapple: Yes
Attack: Yes
Full Attack: Yes
Space/Reach: Yes
Special Attacks: You die
Special Qualities: All of them
Saves: Yes
Abilities: Str Yes, Dex Yes, Con Yes, Int Yes, Wis Yes, Cha Yes
Skills: Yes
Feats: Yes
Environment: Hell (all of them)
Organization: He runs the show
Challenge Rating: Yes
Treasure: Yes
Alignment: Yes
Advancement: Why bother?
Level Adjustment: —

That should be enough information to run any encounter where you actually meet up with the Big A, and not just an avatar or aspect.

[Gnorman]

Keld, have I mentioned lately that I just might love you?

[Keld Denar]

Not lately. Leave your tributes in the bin by the door and see yourself out. One of my servants will be around later to collect them...if I feel like it.

[Thefurmonger]

Stats for Asmodeus:

Size/Type: Yes
Hit Dice: All of them
Initiative: Yes
Speed: Yes
Armor Class: Yes
Base Attack/Grapple: Yes
Attack: Yes
Full Attack: Yes
Space/Reach: Yes
Special Attacks: You die
Special Qualities: All of them
Saves: Yes
Abilities: Str Yes, Dex Yes, Con Yes, Int Yes, Wis Yes, Cha Yes
Skills: Yes
Feats: Yes
Environment: Hell (all of them)
Organization: He runs the show
Challenge Rating: Yes
Treasure: Yes
Alignment: Yes
Advancement: Why bother?
Level Adjustment: —

That should be enough information to run any encounter where you actually meet up with the Big A, and not just an avatar or aspect.

^This^

Really thats about it. Unless you are FARRRRrrrrrrrr into epic you would not even be a blip to him. Even then he would still destroy any party.

He was statted up in the BoVD but frankly that write-up is a joke.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Didn't Dicefreaks make a write up for the Lord of the Nine? (one that wasn't as absurd as the neutrinum golem)

[Veyr]

Asmodeus is a plot element in much the same way the Lady of Pain is; not quite to the same degree (at least theoretically he might have some limitations maybe; at the very least to my knowledge he has not yet managed to enter Sigil), but he still is; it's not going to be realistic to defeat him.

Getting his attention is another matter. I imagine him as being very attentive. He pays attention to things that happen — especially, I would guess, things that heroic mortals do, since they're often the catalyst for change, which he wants to know about. You don't have to pose a direct threat to Asmodeus to be interesting to him.

[holywhippet]

Asmodeus is a plot element in much the same way the Lady of Pain is; not quite to the same degree (at least theoretically he might have some limitations maybe; at the very least to my knowledge he has not yet managed to enter Sigil), but he still is; it's not going to be realistic to defeat him.


Vecna managed to overpower the Lady of Pain for a while though - admittedly that was because the plot said so.

In general though, Asmodeus and the Lady of Pain are walking "you die now" buttons waiting the DM to push them.

[Alleran]

I tend to presume that the Lady is a multiversal constant of some kind, with Sigil playing some important role in how said multiverse doesn't fall apart. Vecna's battle with her causing the multiverse to re-order itself makes a lot more sense to me in that respect.

Anyway, the most powerful devil is Asmodeus, by several country miles - the guy is supposed to outrank several deities in power (in FR, a spell channeled by the goddess of magic, Mystra, using a divinely-granted madness as its component, was only at best able to daze Asmodeus for a few seconds). The most powerful demon is Demogorgon, AFAIK, as the Prince of Demons.

Going by Hit Dice, we don't actually have anything other than aspects for the Archdukes, though Asmo's aspect has 32 HD. You could even use Implore + Fiendish Bargainer + Improved Calling + Superior Planar Summoning to bind it at 20th level, if you were able to early-entry the Cosmic Descryer.

Demogorgon has an aspect in FCI with 28 HD (apparently, they're supposed to be aspects, but the line describing them as such was left out of the final cut of the book by mistake), and his true form (in Dragon Magazine #357 or thereabouts) is a CR 33 encounter with 37 HD. Other Demon Lords (like Orcus and his ilk) are CR 32 at the most.

[Eldan]

I always get annoyed when people claim the lady is some kind of unstoppable super-creature with no limitations. She clearly isn't. She was, quite obviously, threatened (or at last annoyed) in some way by Aoskar, or she wouldn't have responded so massively. She couldn't stop Vecna. She can't perceive Harbinger House or what happens therein. She doesn't seem to have any power outside of Sigil.
And apart from that, we don't really know much about her. No one knows if she can actually move fast. Perhaps she doesn't have a single rank in Perform. Perhaps she's the greatest harpsichord player the multiverse has ever seen. Who knows? No one does.


Anyway, apart from Big A, there's a few other contenders for biggest fiend. The Baernoloths are supposedly really impressive, and the Yugoloths claim they made the other fiendish races and were the first evil. The Obyrith, Pale Night and co, should quite obviously be at least a threat to the big three demons. Orcus was a god, and a big player otherwise in quite some aspect, I'd never discard him in such a list. He seems much more active and impressive than Demogorgon. The General of Gehenna is so scary, the other 'loths don't even talk about him, even though no one knows who and where he is. The current Oinoloth did some impressive things. And supposedly, there's a few big ancient baatorians still sleeping under hell. Big A is at least wary of them, so they have to have some power left.

[Alleran]

I always get annoyed when people claim the lady is some kind of unstoppable super-creature with no limitations. She clearly isn't. She was, quite obviously, threatened (or at last annoyed) in some way by Aoskar, or she wouldn't have responded so massively. She couldn't stop Vecna. She can't perceive Harbinger House or what happens therein. She doesn't seem to have any power outside of Sigil.
Watch it, berk. Don't be speaking ill of Her Serenity. :smalltongue:

As to Aoskar, the Lady didn't really care about him, AFAIK. Were I to guess, I'd say she destroyed him because of the Dabus issue. Which itself may have had something to do with Sigil and the role it plays in the multiverse.

Also, doesn't Die Vecna Die say something about the Lady being of the same origin as the Serpent, which is the personification of magic across the multiverse?


He seems much more active and impressive than Demogorgon.
Savage Tide, maybe? That had quite a bit of Demogorgon getting out and about, and culminated with an army of eladrin, an army of demons and several epic-level entities (Iggwilv among them) all attacking Gaping Maw in order to defeat him.

[Eldan]

True. But Orcus has half a dozen adventures, and between Dead Gods, the Great Modron March and the Rod of Seven Parts, I'm just more impressed by him.

Plus, Army of Eladrin seems a silly concept. They don't usually work as armies.

[Alleran]

True. But Orcus has half a dozen adventures, and between Dead Gods, the Great Modron March and the Rod of Seven Parts, I'm just more impressed by him.
Well, he's the Prince of the Undead (though nobody else really wants the title, so...). That said, he does get more focus, but on the other hand, there are things like Kiaransalee killing him, and Orcus wanting to wrest the "Prince of Demons" title from Demogorgon, so the two-headed monkey seems to outrank him in terms of power. And then, after the Tenebrous issue, Orcus was bested again by Gareth Dragonsbane in that FR module with the help of Bahamut.

FR seems to make a habit of stomping on Orcus/foiling his plans. So does/did Greyhawk.

[Eldan]

He just has D&D bad guy disease. Whenever he is close to succeeding, a bunch of unlikely adventurers show up to foil him at the last moment. A bit like Vecna, really.

So, while Demogorgon might be stronger than him, Orcus killed a bunch of gods, took over the Modrons because he was too lazy to search for his stuff himself and became a god himself once. That makes him impressive to me.

[faceroll]

Orcus isn't a deity, but he competes more avidly in the realm of the gods than other Demon/Devil Lords. It makes sense that he loses a lot.

[Runestar]

I have always wondered what Demogorgon would be like if he ever managed to combined both his heads together (the premise of Savage Tide). :smalleek:

[Psyren]

Alignment: Yes


I think this should be Lawful Evil :smallamused:

[Yora]

Plus, Army of Eladrin seems a silly concept. They don't usually work as armies.
Then call it a wild horde of eladrin. :smallbiggrin:

[Malbordeus]

call it a monkey with a cake on its head if you like, ... just way out of earshot.

[Eldan]

Much better.

But from what I remember, they'd probably rather get someone else to get the fighting done for them.

[Mr.Smashy]

call it a monkey with a cake on its head if you like, ... just way out of earshot.

Cookie for Malbordeus. Made of chocolate and pure Win.:smallsmile:

There is something to be said of talking trash behind a Demon Lord's back. Even more to be said if you do it to his face.

[Yora]

Much better.

But from what I remember, they'd probably rather get someone else to get the fighting done for them.
Depends. Eladrin are all about passion. Some are artists, but I think there are also some fierce warriors among them.

[Eldan]

True. But they also have this entire business of "walking among mortals in disguise" going on. Inspiring others to do heroic deeds is what they do best.

[Aldizog]

Yeah, Asmodeus gets more love than anybody, and, IIRC, has increased his relative power over the arch-devils in various editions. First he was the strongest, then he was stronger than all the others combined, and in 4E he's an actual deity.

Not a fan. And that was before I read the Zargon story.

His stature takes away from his master-strategist aspect. If he survived the Reckoning because he was just so powerful, that's a lot less impressive than if he survived it because he was a step ahead of the conspirators (this time) and they actually could have had a chance had they pulled one over on him.

It also takes away from the Hells scheming and backstabbing if you take the position that "Asmodeus can NEVER be tricked and will NEVER be beaten because he knows everything and he will always outsmart Mephistopheles every single time and he can take on all the other lords at once, plus Orcus, with one hand tied behind his back." Where's the intrigue?

[Eldan]

Good point, actually. Depending on which backstory you believe, he is either half of the serpent and one of the original forces of the multiverse, one of the biggest and baddest fallen archons, a fallen angel or even an actual diety. While I like parts of it, it does make him a bit too powerful.

Really, the raw power should be reserved for the demons.

[Kerghan]

Quite a few arguments in favor of Asmodeus (debatably D&D's version of Lucifer). Obviously, a demon lord/ or Archduke of Hell's power is going to reside mostly on their level/layer because the morphic traits are tied to their whims, but Asmodeus seems to have fought outside of his plane, and won (whether through combat or intrigue), whereas Orcus is having a bit of trouble in dealing with forces outside his plane. That being said, Demogorgon's ability to have two standard actions during a round just from having two heads has ridiculous potential for brokenness.

As a side note, I suppose the above points (minus the Demogorgon one) could make them seem more like gods.

[Essence_of_War]

http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gth669h/TGoH/TGoH9.pdf

Link for DiceFreaks' writeup of the Lords of the 9, including Asmodeus.

Write up of Demogorgon:
http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2505

[Yora]

I never understood the purpose of that thought experiment.
Why go CR 80 when you leave the last traces of mortally behind you well before level 30?

[Sims]

I never understood the purpose of that thought experiment.
Why go CR 80 when you leave the last traces of mortally behind you well before level 30?

Maybe some choose not to. (Like me! <:D)

[Eldan]

Still, though. The game begins to show signs of breaking down around level 12, and with careful, very careful, restraint can be extended to 20. Some crazy people can go to 30. After that? Really, there's not much of a point anymore. You aren't really playing anything that has much to do with "normal" D&D.

[Kerghan]

I suppose at that point you could just throw level adjustment out the window and play a monster you've always wanted to play, like a mature adult deep dragon.

[DeltaEmil]

Or a 1 trillion hit dice hecatoncheire who can cast 100 quickened epic spells while still attacking with 100 keen vorpal universe-destroying swords +infinity.

At some point, it just really doesn't matter anymore what you play and against what you fight, if things scale infinitly. Which is the problem of D&D 3.x epic-gameplay.

[Sydonai]

.......There is a big difference between an adult Deep Dragon and a twinked-out Hecatonchire.

[Eldan]

Yeah. One has magic, the other is a big fighter. IT's not a fair fight :smalltongue:

[Wings of Peace]

You're all thinking too logically. My vote goes out to Xphpt, Far Realmian lord of the color cinnamon.

[Eldan]

Your lord Cinnamon bun isn't a fiend, though.

Of course there's stronger things than fiends.

[Wings of Peace]

Your lord Cinnamon bun isn't a fiend, though.

Of course there's stronger things than fiends.

True and true again. On a more serious line of commentary, I always (at least with regards to the Forgotten Realms) entertained the idea that the strongest beings are some manner of paradoxical far-realm entity. But then again, the entire far-realm is basically one giant plot zone.

[Ossian]

Who are the strongest Demons?

I am surprised no one has said "your inner ones" yet. Truly this is a community of professional demon-lore lovers :smallwink:

Just out of curiosity you might want to explore other settings for interesting crossovers. I am referring to the list of monsters and creatures that appeared in a splatbook for the Stormbringer (Elric) roleplay game, the one based on the d100 (like CoC). There are a bunch of extraplanar creatures there that even the big A might just not want knocking at their doors (well, for the big A it would be all "just as planned" this much we know). Alternatively, in the old "Immortal Boxed Set" for D&D (the one after the black box) there are extraplanars that would call for a direct intervention of the lower immortals themselves (amongst which, just for power scale reference, you would have peeps like Demogorgon and Orcus). In that set there was a wide gulf between "exalted creatures" (good to scare the hell out of top level parties of adventurers, what you would call demons) and "immortals". Some of the latter you would refer to as Gods, some as Demons, some as Fiends, all would get some kind of following or cult to derive power from. The oldest ones (Hierarchs of the respective spheres) would be pretty far out of the demon's league, and Asmodeus, while not being a "God" himself, would be sitting somewhere near them (stuff like Odin, Ixion (or "the Sun"), Hel, Thanatos etc..)

[AtomicKitKat]

Yeah, Asmodeus gets more love than anybody, and, IIRC, has increased his relative power over the arch-devils in various editions. First he was the strongest, then he was stronger than all the others combined, and in 4E he's an actual deity.

Not a fan. And that was before I read the Zargon story.

His stature takes away from his master-strategist aspect. If he survived the Reckoning because he was just so powerful, that's a lot less impressive than if he survived it because he was a step ahead of the conspirators (this time) and they actually could have had a chance had they pulled one over on him.

It also takes away from the Hells scheming and backstabbing if you take the position that "Asmodeus can NEVER be tricked and will NEVER be beaten because he knows everything and he will always outsmart Mephistopheles every single time and he can take on all the other lords at once, plus Orcus, with one hand tied behind his back." Where's the intrigue?

QFT. Stupid Villain Sue.