am I understanding Incarum correctly?

[big teej]

greetigns playgrounders, I recently obtained Magic of Incarnum, and as I read through it, I can't help but wonder if I'm understanding it correctly

as I read it, as long as it's a soulmeld on your classes list, you can use it at any level

(i.e. the flying one at first level)

is this true?

or am I misunderstanding how souldmelds and incarnum work?

if somebody could help me understand this better I'd greatly appreciate it.

[Keld Denar]

Nope, you got it right. All of the base effects of soulmelds are all available from level 1.

Note that its the Chakra binds that are the better abilities. They are the ones that duplicate many magic item or spell effects. Chakra binds are only available from gaining levels in a meldshaping class, or from a feat, and you generally have a very limited number of binds available.

[big teej]

:smalleek:

thanks a bunch...


it just sounded......


toooo good.

[Arbitrarious]

Bear in mind the airstep sandals only let you fly a short distance on your turn. Certainly useful, but many times at low levels a well done jump check can do the same. Incarnum is useful and very flavorful, but it's lower on the power scale without optimization, warlock-esque if you will. Except for the unholy natural attack fury of the totemist, that just rocks.

[big teej]

well, as for how 'optimized' our group is...

it isn't

but I was informed in.... some past thread, that magic of incarnum was so good it was just gamebreaking whether you were optimizing or not

okay not "gamebreaking" ... more.... "game changing" and there was no avoiding it. and everyone who posted really made it sound like my group just isn't ready for Magic of Incarnum.

[Zaq]

Incarnum is in no way gamebreaking (an optimized Totemist is a thing of terrible beauty, but an optimized Barbarian can do almost the same thing. Don't get me started on comparing it to a Druid). It's quite balanced, actually, and is honestly a little underpowered at higher levels.

Game-changing? Well, that depends on what you do with it. It can be, but it doesn't have to be. Part of what I like about MoI is that it offers an alternative to the standard rules . . . but unless you really go out of your way to do something weird, there's no reason that an Incarnate or Totemist can't function perfectly well in a normal group. (Soulborns are a trap. Don't use them.)

[Prime32]

okay not "gamebreaking" ... more.... "game changing" and there was no avoiding it. and everyone who posted really made it sound like my group just isn't ready for Magic of Incarnum.I would assume this meant "hard to learn since its mechanics are different", since incarnum is in no way overpowered.

[Master_Rahl22]

Certainly not gamebreaking, and there are feats that other classes can use to dip a little bit into the Incarnum rules such as Shape Soulmeld, and various other feats designed to work with spellcasters, psionics, etc. The big thing to remember is like Keld already said, very few soulmelds do much besides a boost to skills unless they're bound, and low level Incarnum characters get very few binds. Totemists don't even get their first bind until level 2.

[big teej]

well, that's comforting....

I may have to give one of them a spin.

just to double check, you get access to ALL soulmelds from the get go right? provided your class has access to them.

2nd. why is soulborn a trap?

[RaginChangeling]

well, that's comforting....

I may have to give one of them a spin.

just to double check, you get access to ALL soulmelds from the get go right? provided your class has access to them.

2nd. why is soulborn a trap?

You don't get access to very many binds, none of the good ones, you have a terrible essentia capacity and Totemist and Incarnate both fight better than you do.

Also yes, you have access to all of your class' soulmelds from the get go. You can only shape a certain number per day, you can only invest a certain amount of essentia based on your character level and you can only bind to the chakras you have unlocked, and only to the maximum number of binds you have available. Not to mention you cannot benefit from a chakra that has a magic item taking up the same slot...

[Keld Denar]

Soulborn is a trap because WotC overvalues full BAB. They basically took a paladin, took away his crippled spellcasting, and gave him crippled meldshaping. Given that meldshaping is inherantly a bit weaker than spellcasting, this results in very very very limited meldshaping. Heck, Soulborn can't even shape their first meld until level 4, and don't get a chakra bind until what, 9th level? You can take a FEAT and shape/bind soulmelds faster than a Soulborn can. And they get like, no essentia. Oh, and MAD as bad as a Paladin.

Person_Man actually proposed a fix a while back, which was basically just duct taping all of the features of a Soulknife and a Soulborn together and calling it a game. That means full BAB, strong saves, and all of the class features of both at their respective levels. And even then, its still only probably on the upper end of T4.

[Veyr]

Incarnum is an excellent system, just... poorly described, and Magic of Incarnum is poorly organized. Thus, it can be difficult to understand what is essentially a very simple and elegant system.

To begin with, you choose your Soulmelds. You get a certain number of these depending on your class, and you get some simple, minor bonus just for shaping them.

Simply shaping a Soulmeld does not do very much, though. You can improve their basic effect by investing Essentia into them, which can make Meldshapers rather good skill monkeys ('melds basic effects tend to be +some to a few skills, +some more if you put essentia in). Changing how your Essentia's invested takes a Swift Action, and the maximum Essentia you can invest in any one Soulmeld is determined by your character (not class) level.

The other thing you can do is bind them to a Chakra. You can only bind a limited number of Soulmelds to a Chakra, plus you need to have the Chakra in question open (either through class features or the Open Chakra feat). When you bind a Soulmeld to a Chakra, that Chakra's corresponding item slot is considered full. Thus, if you bind Sphinx Claws to your Hands, you can't wear magic Gloves as well. Note that this occurs on a bind, not simply for shaping. This is important.

The Chakra binds are where most of the power is. For the Totemist, that's where they get most of their weapons. For the Incarnate, they get weapons, armor, spell-like abilities, etc. For the Soulborn... err, who cares? Soulborns are awful. But note that Chakras only open at particular levels; you can't bind to the Soul Chakra unless you're a high-level Incarnate, etc.

[big teej]

definitely gonna have to give one of the incarnum classes a go now.

one last question.

is there any penalty for 'unbinding' a chakra bind? I remember reading somewhere that basically all you have to do to swap out a soulmeld is wait 8-12 hours then you can shape it into something else, but in the mean time it just stays in place.


is this true?

[MammonAzrael]

There aren't any penalties, IIRC, aside from no longer having the ability you just unbound. You aren't punished for it, as versatility is one of the main things that Incarnum focused on.

[Arbitrarious]

That was my only issue with incarnum, that if something forcibly unshaped or unbound a soulmeld you were crippled until you could reshape melds for the day. Also essentia damage. Really if they made unshapping/binding temporary like a few minutes, enough to cripple for a fight not the rest of the day, I'd be ok. Just remove essentia damage. It doesn't need to exist.

[big teej]

That was my only issue with incarnum, that if something forcibly unshaped or unbound a soulmeld you were crippled until you could reshape melds for the day. Also essentia damage. Really if they made unshapping/binding temporary like a few minutes, enough to cripple for a fight not the rest of the day, I'd be ok. Just remove essentia damage. It doesn't need to exist.

okay... I haven't finished reading the book (this thread inspired a reread before I was finished)

but I haven't seen anything that can unbind/shape a soulmeld....

I saw where dispel magic can supress it. but I haven't seen anything that does essentia damage and/or unbinds/shapes things

discounting things that would cause ability damage.

soooo

what sorts of things forcibly unshape/bind soulmelds?

[MammonAzrael]

Check out the second monster, the dissolution ooze. The the Incarnum Dragon eats soulmelds.

The Incarnum Wraith consumes essentia.

Just read through the various monsters and you'll see plenty.

[Boci]

Dispel magic

[Zaq]

Dispel magic

. . . will suppress a soulmeld, but not unshape it.

Also, periods? Sentences? Verbs? Do these things mean nothing anymore?

[Person_Man]

Go check out Sinfire Titan's handbooks on Brilliant Gameologist. They'll help a lot.

The real key to understanding Incarnum is that different soulmelds and/or chakra binds are useful for different builds at different levels.

For example, an Incarnate 1-2 can get:

Astral Vembraces: DR 4/magic
Mantle of Flame: 2d6 retributive fire damage against melee attacks
Lightning Gauntlets: 2d6 electrical touch attack (every turn)

That makes him one of the best low level front line tanks in the game. But by level 3-4ish, he's much better off using the Necrocarnum Circlet bound to your Crown chakra (Infinitely replaceable Necrocarnum Zombie) to create a tackle dummy while standing back and fighting with a ranged weapon. Then at mid levels a lot of Skill boosts become meaningful, and he plays a lot like a magical Rogue. And so on. The point is, there are very few soulmelds which are "always" amazing or always lousy. Your build and tactics must evolve and change as you gain levels. And therein lies the fun (and frustration).

You should also remember that ANY build can access soulmelds and (more importantly) chakra binds via Feats. This opens up goodies such as Evasion (Impulse Boots), Telepathy (Shedu Crown), flight (several), Etherealness whenever you move (Phase Cloak), and many other gems for virtually anyone with sufficient hit dice.

[Darth Stabber]

Incarnum is probably my favorite "magic" system in 3.5. It has a wide variety of possible builds, and lets you change most of the details every morning. A totemist can be a scary melee blender one day, and the next day he's spike throwing machine gun.

In gestalt these classes go from fair to amazing. Given the action economy problem in gestalt (ie 2 classes worth of abilities but only 1 set of actions), your soulmelds usually only require a swift action (or none if you don't move essentia), and you have your move and standard to do all your other classes stuff. Incarnate//Cleric and Incarnate//Wizard make potent combinations(especially with midnight metamagic). 'Totemist16//Barbarian6/fighter2/bear warrior5/fist of the forest3' is a fun ubercharger variant for that format. Rogue//Incarnate makes a ungodly skill monkey.

Incarnum's glaring weakness is the inability to use magic items without heavy feat investment (1 feat allows a chakra bind and item to coexist in one slot). Now that I've said that, I will say that Incarnate and Totemist are some the best candidates for VoP ever.

[Prime32]

Factotum//Incarnate makes a ungodly skill monkey.Fixed. :smallwink:

A factotum 10/chameleon 10//incarnate 20 can basically be a different person every day.

[Zaq]

Fixed. :smallwink:

A factotum 10/chameleon 10//incarnate 20 can basically be a different person every day.

And a Binder/Incarnate/Chameleon can do that without being Gestalt.

[sreservoir]

. . . will suppress a soulmeld, but not unshape it.

Also, periods? Sentences? Verbs? Do these things mean nothing anymore?

well, dispel is a verb, and "dispel magic" is a valid command if it had a period.

anyway, incarnum is fine by itself, but dropping shape soulmeld in a build which needs Just One Thing occasionally creates stupidly powerful combinations. usually not, though.

[Darth Stabber]

Soulmeld disjunction unshapes soulmelds. It's also a 9th level spell. Only batman wizards who are really good at the scry-fu even bother with the spell, and only then if there is a ton of incarnum floating around. It presents an interesting option since it leaves magic items alone. Okay, it sucks, i'll admit it. I think that warlocks get an invocation that breaks soulmelds.

[big teej]

so.....

I could, hypothetically,

drop into totemist for say.... 2 or 3 levels and pick up the rage gauntlet thingy that lets you fight past -1 hit points....

and keep going?

this.
this is amazing!!!!! :smallbiggrin:

[Zaq]

Sure can. Incarnum classes make awesome dips.

Beware, though . . . Incarnates and Totemists are like Factotums. You start out trying to just dip them, but sometimes it's hard to go back to your original plans. They're quite alluring.

[big teej]

Sure can. Incarnum classes make awesome dips.

Beware, though . . . Incarnates and Totemists are like Factotums. You start out trying to just dip them, but sometimes it's hard to go back to your original plans. They're quite alluring.

I imagine so, that's why I'm going to play one some time,

but thankfully my concept requires the Knight class. I simply want to dip into totemist to be better at my job

[big teej]

okay, I've got another set of questions.

I've rolled up an incarnum user (a Skarn Incarnate)

and I have a few questions before I lay this topic to rest (though I'm sure it'll crop up again soon)

here are the questions I have
Why would I need ranks in concentration?
Can I get by with a low wisdom if I don’t use soulmelds that effect other people?
I can have 5 soul melds, but they can only bind them to my crown, feat, or hands. But I can meld them to ANYWHERE right?

Of these soulmelds, I can invest 1 essentia into any of them, and I have 4 essentia to invest however I desire.

Is this right?

here's the charactersheet.

Character name: Marc Player name:
Class and level: 4th level incarnate Race: Skarn
Alignment: Lawful Neutral Deity: Wee Jas

Size: medium Age: 32 Gender: Male Height:6’6 Weight: 330 lbs
Eyes: deep blue Hair: black Skin: fair, dark navy spines
Theme song:

Hit points: 27
AC: 10 + armor + shield + natural armor + xxx
BAB: + 2
Strength: 19 [+4]
Dexterity: 10
Constitution: 15 [ +2]
Intelligence: 13 [+1]
Wisdom: 11
Charisma: 9 [-1]

Saving throws
Will: + 4
Fortitude: + 6
Reflex: + 1

Speed: 30 ft

Racial features
Humanoid (reptilian)
Natural weapon: spines – 1d6
+ 2 racial bonus on intimidate and climb checks

Class features
Incarnate meldshaping
Lawful Aura
Detect Chaos
Chakra bind(crown)
Expanded soulmeld capacity +1
Incarnum radiance 1/day
Chakra binds (feet, hands)

Feats taken
1 for creation
1 for level 3

Skills 21


Essentia pool: 4
Essentia capacity: 1
Chakra binds: 1
Soulmelds: 5
-soulmeld, effect, invested essential x5

Weapons in use
Pending shopping

Equipment/gear:
Pending shopping

Items and possessions
Pending shopping

Languages: Common, Draconic

XP: 6,000

Money: 5,400

Heroic achievements:

To do list

[Veyr]

You can only shape them to a slot that they could normally take, but they don't interfere with anything aside from other soulmelds if you do so.

[Keld Denar]

Note, because of the Incarnate class feature, your essentia capacity for those soulmelds is actually 2, not 1.

And yes, you can shape melds to any slot it can be shaped to, as long as you only shape one soulmeld to a given slot. Once you have that done, you then decide which among them you want to bind to a chakra you have open.

Couple of examples:

You can shape Airstep Sandals or Cerulian Sandals, since both are foot slot melds. You couldn't shape both of them, you have to pick one or the other.

You could shape Bluesteel Bracers to your arms, but you couldn't bind it to your arms, since you don't have that chakra open (not till 9th level).

If you bind Airstep Sandals to your feet, you couldn't wear Boots of Speed, if you had a pair, since Boots of Speed are a magic item, and binding a soulmeld to a chakra takes up the magic item slot. If you did have both on, only the one applied last would be active. Thus, if you were wearing your Boots of Speed when you shaped your soulmelds, Airstep Sandals would be active and Boots of Speed would be dormant. If your Sandals got unshaped or unbound for any reason, you could then use your Boots of Speed. If you had Airstep Sandals bound, and you put on a pair of Boots of Speed you found in a treasure pile, the Airstep Sandals would go inert until you take off the Boots of Speed. This is according to the magic item slots rules in the DMG.

[big teej]

okay, huzzah, so aside from forgetting/misunderstanding my class feature, does everything I have check out right?

here's an addition I've made since that post (I picked out some soulmelds I want to try)



Essentia pool: 4
Essentia capacity: 2
Chakra binds: 1
Soulmelds: 5
-soulmeld, effect, invested essential, slot x5
Airstep Sandals, fly 10ft per essentia, 1 essentia, feet, bound
- Fly 20 feet as a move action, perfect maneuverability

Lucky dice, + 1 luck bonus on rolls, 1 essentia, hands
- +1 luck bonus to attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, or skill/ability checks, roll 2d6: if rolls come up 7 bonus applies to all. Lasts 2 rounds.

Bluesteel Bracers, + 2 on initiative checks, 1 essentia, arms
- + 2 insight bonus on intiative checks, + 1 to damage rolls

Adamant Pauldrons, 25% ignore critical, 1 essentia, shoulders
- 25% chance to ignore criticals, DR1/Chaotic

Dissolving spittle, spit acid 1d6, 1 essentia, throat
- Spit a glob of acid 30 ft, ranged touch attack 2d6 acid damage




EDIT: any suggestions for allocating my skills?

[Keld Denar]

You got it right. One thing you MIGHT want to ask your DM. Airstep Sandals are kinda funky. Just the base bind gives you clumsy maneuverability, and specifies that you have to end your turn touching the ground. The bind gives you PERFECT fly, but doesn't explicitly state that you don't have to touch the ground. Now, clumsy flight typically comes with the caviat that you have to fly a certain percentage of your fly speed forward each round to keep from stalling (and thus hitting the ground anyway). Thus, whether or not that you have to touch the ground is kinda uncertain RAI. RAW, you should, but there is enough evidence to support that the intent is that you don't, IMO. So yea...ask your DM if that'll give you perfect all day flight without ever having to touch the ground.

Also, you'll generally have 2 states of essentia investment. Bluesteel Bracers are AWESOME out of combat, or when you anticipate combat, because they give you a huge boost to go first when the time comes. Once you are in combat, however, you aren't rolling Init anymore. Thus, its advantageous to keep your essentia in them any time you are just wandering about, and redestribute them to other essentia recepticles once combat actually starts. I'd keep Disolving Spittle maxed out in combat, along with Adamant Paudrouns, for example.

[big teej]

You got it right. One thing you MIGHT want to ask your DM. Airstep Sandals are kinda funky. Just the base bind gives you clumsy maneuverability, and specifies that you have to end your turn touching the ground. The bind gives you PERFECT fly, but doesn't explicitly state that you don't have to touch the ground. Now, clumsy flight typically comes with the caviat that you have to fly a certain percentage of your fly speed forward each round to keep from stalling (and thus hitting the ground anyway). Thus, whether or not that you have to touch the ground is kinda uncertain RAI. RAW, you should, but there is enough evidence to support that the intent is that you don't, IMO. So yea...ask your DM if that'll give you perfect all day flight without ever having to touch the ground.

Also, you'll generally have 2 states of essentia investment. Bluesteel Bracers are AWESOME out of combat, or when you anticipate combat, because they give you a huge boost to go first when the time comes. Once you are in combat, however, you aren't rolling Init anymore. Thus, its advantageous to keep your essentia in them any time you are just wandering about, and redestribute them to other essentia recepticles once combat actually starts. I'd keep Disolving Spittle maxed out in combat, along with Adamant Paudrouns, for example.

I'll be sure to mention that to him.

the way I read it, I'd rule as a DM that you do have to touch the ground at the end, just like if it wasn't bound.


though I am curious how many share this perspective.

I appreciate the advice about allocating things, I'll most likely use that.


EDIT: any tips on how to allocate my skill points? I am unsure what will consistently be useful to an incarnate

my initial reaction was to max out all my knowledge skills, but even then....
I just don't know what's useful for an incarnate.

[Darth Stabber]

the way I read it, I'd rule as a DM that you do have to touch the ground at the end, just like if it wasn't bound.
...
EDIT: any tips on how to allocate my skill points? I am unsure what will consistently be useful to an incarnate

my initial reaction was to max out all my knowledge skills, but even then....
I just don't know what's useful for an incarnate.

As a GM I rule they don't need to touch, they are turning off a good item slot (feet) for it, so they may as well have it be useful. Keep in mind that if you have a flight speed with anything other than perfect maneuverability, you are either moving or crashing (hovering is a feature of perfect)

Your skill points are not a major deal. You can spend them all on knowledge and concentration if you want. Your ability to skill monkey it up comes from melds not points. Keep in mind though, like a wizard, you need to be able to guess in the morning what skill you need during the day, and you don't have all those tasty divinations to give you an educated guess.

[big teej]

As a GM I rule they don't need to touch, they are turning off a good item slot (feet) for it, so they may as well have it be useful. Keep in mind that if you have a flight speed with anything other than perfect maneuverability, you are either moving or crashing (hovering is a feature of perfect)

Your skill points are not a major deal. You can spend them all on knowledge and concentration if you want. Your ability to skill monkey it up comes from melds not points. Keep in mind though, like a wizard, you need to be able to guess in the morning what skill you need during the day, and you don't have all those tasty divinations to give you an educated guess.

well, I'll direct my DM to this thread when it comes up.


in the meantime.

I'm still not sure why I need concentration. :smallconfused: maybe I'm just having a slow moment, but looking at what I can do, I don't see why I need it.

[Darth Stabber]

If anything distracts you while you are preparing your soulmelds, and seveal soulmelds give SLAs and it would be nice to not lose them to AoOs

[big teej]

I suppose that makes sense. guess I just hadn't considered using many of the SLA providing soulmelds

[Zaq]

If anything distracts you while you are preparing your soulmelds, and seveal soulmelds give SLAs and it would be nice to not lose them to AoOs

I do not believe that this is the case. Which ones are you thinking of?

[Darth Stabber]

I do not believe that this is the case. Which ones are you thinking of?

Now that I have reread some things I can ask, does "you may use X as the spell" qualify as an sla? If so lots of them (about a third), if not none.

Also if you are shaping your melds during a storm it requires a concentration check (though th DC is never given). Actually it says you need one if anything might distract you while shaping melds. They really need some dcs on those.

[big teej]

well, I don't have my book handy, but it does have a 'new use for skills section' I believe

perhaps its in there?

failing that, would it be outragous to simply use the same chart that spellcasters use?

I know if you click on the concentration skill on the SRD it brings up a table with DCs

I would imagine that would apply to ANYTHING that uses concentration...

but I could be wrong.