Community Based Monster Classes VII [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Gorgondantess

2011-03-23, 09:23 PM

Community Based Monster Classes VII

For the player that wants to play D&D and be a monster, there's often a bitter pill to swallow. Maybe you're expected to deal with a kludgy level adjustment? Or perhaps the monster class they've already put out there has less-than-full HD per level? Or maybe there's just no LA or monster class option for that obscure monster you're so keen on, and you're forced to throw something together and beg your DM for its acceptance. Whatever the case, you're inevitably imbalanced one way or another. The session ends and people will often find themselves thinking things would have worked more smoothly if that monster hadn't been there to muck up the works.

No more!

In this thread, you will be able to play as any monster you want by entering these monster classes as though they were regular classes. Huge stat bonuses and screwy HD have been done away with, monsters with abilities that would throw campaigns into disarray (24/7 petrifying gaze! Woo!) have been rebalanced and made suitable for play. Monsters have been tweaked for your playing enjoyment.

If you love these monster classes, like so many do, there are two ways you can help out. You can critique or you can submit new monster classes.

The nebulous goal of this thread is to create a playable monster class for every monster in official material. Is that doable? Maybe not, but it's a good boundary to work within. For people wanting to work on monsters that aren't from official WotC material, there is a spin-off project, our homebrew edition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180510). This spin-off project's main purpose is to make monster classes for PEACH'd homebrew monsters. Make sure to check them out!

First Time Here?
In the second post is a list of monster classes that have, for the most part, been thoroughly critiqued and balanced by several individuals each. If you see anything that you find questionable, please PM either the creator or post in the thread with your observations, and we will be happy to help. After all, we wouldn't be posting these monster classes here if we just wanted to use them ourselves!

One caveat, though: due to different build guidelines, one should always note what thread and by what poster the monster came from. If it is from Improved Monster Classes or Improved Monster Classes II, or by a banned poster, it is likely of questionable balance and playability. Improved Monster Classes III and IV were much improved, though, and for the most part should be fine, and anything from any of the Community Based Monster Classes comes with our full support.

Beyond that, it is strongly encouraged that you read the FAQ, as we do things here a little bit differently than most other homebrew projects.

For those who would like to contribute, see 'So You Want to Make a Monster Class'.

General FAQ
Q) What monsters am I allowed to make into a monster class?
A) We encourage Homebrewers to build any monster as a playable character class. We prefer that Homebrewers build Monster Classes for monsters from published material that have not already been submitted. Before starting a new monster class, check the 'called' list (where people have called dibs on a particular monster or indicated they have started such a monster already) and the finished/unfinished monster lists. New homebrewers are encouraged to pick low-CR monsters (3-8), and not to attempt to tackle epic tier (20+ level) classes from the outset. Monsters from homebrew monsters should go in our homebrew section (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180510).

Q) Help! I'm taking a 1 or 2 level monster class and can't tell if it's BAB 1/2 or 3/4! (For the purposes of fractional BAB).
A) Unless otherwise noted, an undead has 1/2 BAB, while all other classes/templates have 3/4 BAB.

Q) When I increase in size does my strength increase and my dexterity decrease? If so, by how much?
A) Size increases, or decreases, do not alter ability scores in this project.

Q) What's the Caster Level for the SLAs?
A) Unless otherwise specified, the Caster level for any SLAs is equal to your total HD.

Q) What’s the Save DC for this ability?
A) Unless otherwise specified the Save DC is (10+ 1/2 HD + Charisma Modifier).

Q) What's with this scaling by HD?
A) Some have questioned the reasoning and balance behind scaling abilities by HD. The reason for this is simple: multiclassing. We believe that all abilities gained by all monsters, even level 1 monsters, should be viable and balanced at all levels. However, most monster classes simply don't go to level 20, so we're required to make their abilities stay relevant by scaling by HD as opposed to level.

The rest of the rules are split into three parts. Use Guidelines will teach you all the general rules for using these Monster Classes in a game, with specifics on changing size or multiclassing several monster classes (unintended by the project, but people are liable to try it anyways). Critique Guidelines will explain how you can help the project by commenting on other people's monsters. Meanwhile, at the bottom is the Homebrew Guidelines for those who want to make monster classes.

Use Guidelines

You take these Monster Classes just like you would any other class, such as wizard or rogue. Each level of the class develops your abilities as that particular monster. Normally you should take the first level of a Monster Class at level 1, but there are exceptions, such as transformations. Likewise, one might simply wish to take a base class at first level: under these occasions one is superficially the monster that they plan to take, but does not actually gain any of their abilities. After the first level, you may multiclass freely; for example one might take 1 level of troll, then 3 of barbarian, then a second level of troll, then another level of barbarian.

Upon taking the first level of a base monster class, you lose all other racial traits: what this means is that while you may select a race in character creation, you lose that race when you take your first level in a monster class. You do not gain any traits or bonuses from being a race, as the first level of a Monster Class replaces both class and race. That said, the monster classes are typically a step more powerful than a standard class to make up for the lack of racial bonuses. This does not apply, however, to creatures listed under prestige monster classes.

Growth Table
{table=head]Base Size|New Size| AC & Attack Bonuses*|Space*|Reach (Tall/Long)*|Ave. Size Incr.|Ave. Weight Incr.|Grapple Mod.|Hide Mod.
Fine|Diminutive|-4 (size)|+½’|+0’/+0’|+6”|+1/2 lb.|+4 (size)|-4 (size)
Diminutive|Tiny|-2 (size)|+1½’|+0’/+0’|+9”|+5 lbs.|+4 (size)|-4 (size)
Tiny|Small| -1 (size)|+2½’|+5’/+5’|+18”|+36 lbs.|+4 (size)|-4 (size)
Small|Medium| -1 (size)|+0’|+0’/+0’|+3’|+240 lbs.|+4 (size)|-4 (size)
Medium|Large|-1 (size)|+5’|+5’/+0’|+6’|+2000 lbs.|+4 (size)|-4 (size)
Large|Huge|-1 (size)|+5’|+5’/+5’|+12’|+8 tons|+4 (size)|-4 (size)
Huge|Gargantuan|-2 (size)|+5’|+5’/+5’|+24’|+80 tons|+4 (size)|-4 (size)
Gargantuan|Colossal|-4 (size)|+10’|+10’/+5’|+48’|+200 tons|+4 (size)|-4 (size)[/table]
Natural weapons damage increases one die size for each size increase.

Thanks to Zeta Kai for the Table.

Multiple Natural Armor Bonuses
If a creature gains natural armor bonuses from multiple sources treat them according to the following chart.
{table=head]Base Natural Armor|Extra Natural Armor|Results

1/2 Con Mod|1/2 Con Mod|Full Con Mod as Natural armor Bonus

Anything higher than 1/2 Con Mod|1/2 Con Mod|+1 Nat. AC

Full Con Mod|Full Con Mod|1.5 Con Mod

Anything Higher than Full Con Mod|Full Con Mod|+2 Nat. AC

1.5 Con Mod|Anything higher than Full Con Mod|+3 Nat. AC[/table]
Creatures that gain Natural Armor from more than one monster class that specify different Ability Scores as the base for their Natural Armor Class use whichever Ability Score is higher to derive both Natural Armor Classes, and uses the chart above.
Thanks to ChumpLump for the Table.

Multiclassing MonstersNormally one is not allowed to take 2 base monster classes.
In some cases, your DM may disregard the above rule and allow you to multiclass two base monster classes. This will likely represent some sort of hybrid character, which could be interesting. In this case, how you should play this is: For the monster class which you do not take at level one, remove the “Body of X” class feature, and use the “Body of X” for your first monster class. If you somehow take them at the same time using a variant rule like gestalt, keep the “Body of X” from the class with more levels. If they both have the same number of levels, you may choose which “Body of X” you keep.

Critique Guidelines

For any monster to be put up, it must be critiqued. By you! Here's how it works.

Monster approval is governed by a group of experienced or thoughtful homebrewers, known as the council. The council currently consists of Gorgondantess, Hyudra, and Kyuubi. For any monster to be put on the list, it needs only to be approved by any two council members. The council is not a closed entity, if you wish to be a part of the council, send one of us a PM.

Further, the council are not the only ones who may critique-- we strongly encourage you to help others round out their monster classes. Especially if you hope to one day be on the council, you will only be chosen for the council if you critique often and critique well. Even for those not wishing to be on the council, critiquing others' work can improve the quality of your own submissions and may lead to you getting more critiques & faster approval of your own work. Someone who posts a monster and then doesn't post for two weeks while they wait for responses is going to get a less enthusiastic response than someone who is active and participating in the thread.

If you intend to comment on monster classes in any way, you should read the rules below and follow them.

Critiquing Rules
1. Contribution
Try to critique other Monster Classes whenever possible. It can be very frustrating if no one will critique your class, and if you skip over someone's class, they may feel left out. Just remember that if you help someone out by critiquing their class, they will likely help you out by critiquing your class.

2. Respect
Respect is tantamount if you are working on this project. If you are disrespectful of a class or a homebrewer, your monsters will likely not be critiqued. And as monsters need to be critiqued to go onto the list, if you are disrespectful of a class or a homebrewer, your monsters will not go on the list.

Homebrew Guidelines

Making a Monster Class is difficult, so don't think you can whip something up in ten seconds and get it posted. It may be long and hard to perfect it, but we'll help you through it. Follow these guidelines and you'll quickly be on your way. Remember to start out with Hyudra's class template so that all classes are in a standard format.

So You Want to Make a Monster Class
It is highly suggested you follow the steps below before beginning to work on a monster.
In fact, if you do not, Hyudra and I will be much less inclined to critique & add your monster to the list.
The first step is to speak with one of the council members. Simply PM Gorgondantess (me) or, better yet, pester me on some chat program (much quicker than PM, can be found in my profile, I'm on most of the time) so we can set up a chat. If I cannot be reached for a week+, go ahead and speak with one of the other councilmembers, though I've taken the brunt of interviewing on newcomers. What will follow is a short interview/briefing (though really in the end more of just a conversation) so we can discuss common errors, thread guidelines, and your first monster- I've found that input before the creation of a monster is just as important as input after it's all written out.
That done, just keep our conversation in mind, and the guidelines below:

Spellcheck, format check:
http://oi55.tinypic.com/33b3l8j.jpg

Read over your finished work for errors. Ideally, you want to run it through a spellchecker (either built into your browser or copy/pasted into a word document), but if you've got a good eye for errors, that can be omitted. Additionally, do follow the Guide to Writing Monster Classes, below.

Be prepared to revise: Monsters that are submitted have to go through a review process to ensure we're putting quality work out there. Yes, we are perfectionists. For this reason, the council members will go over monsters and suggest changes.

Make your own abilities, make active abilities: Nobody wants to play a monster that just full attacks all the time, even if it does have a bunch of stat bonuses and DR and the like. Make sure the player gets to make meaningful decisions during combat, rather than the same thing over and over again. If the base monster doesn't have enough abilities or active abilities, make your own. It does not and should not have the exact same abilities as the original monster.

Scale!
Scale by HD, not levels. What this means is that if a monster has a breath weapon, rather than tying its damage to level, tie it to HD: 1d6 damage per HD is the standard for a true dragon. Thus, one who takes 5 levels in a dragon and 15 levels in another class will still have a decent breath weapon at level 20. Duration, DCs, and range should also all scale by HD.

A Guide to Writing Monster Classes:
Copy-Paste Post Template, Design Guidelines, Changelog FAQ & Image FAQ (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10450355&postcount=742)

Hyudra

2011-03-23, 09:23 PM

Base Monster Classes

A

Abishai (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9224087&postcount=41) - Gorgondantess
Aboleth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9367644&postcount=408) - by Oslecamo
Achaierai (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8926591&postcount=946) - by Gorgondantess
Air elemental (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8927531&postcount=952) - by AustontheGreat1
Allip (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9468452&postcount=105) - by Temotei
Anaxim (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9355044&postcount=378) - by Draken
Androsphynx (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9241349&postcount=136) - by Oslecamo
Angel of Decay (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8589538&postcount=496) - by Draken
Ankheg (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9917457&postcount=99) - by Kajhera
Annis Hag (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8910218&postcount=915) - by Hyudra
Anthropomorphic Animal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9187907&postcount=1413) - by Oslecamo
Aranea (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8118735&postcount=220) - by Oslecamo
Arcadian Avenger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9591118&postcount=594) - by Zemro Shivic
Arcanaloth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9059851&postcount=1145) - by Frog Dragon
Arrow Demon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9520004&postcount=337) - by Cogidubnus
Astral Construct (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9477852&postcount=172) - by Sciencepanda
Astral Stalker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9355227&postcount=379) - by Fyrebyrd/Oslecamo
Awakened Monstrous Crab (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9355321&postcount=380) - by Flabort
Awakened Skeleton (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7966879&postcount=55) - by Oslecamo

B

Balor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7967157&postcount=58) - by Oslecamo
Basilisk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10121721&postcount=796) - by Hyudra
Beguiler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8672814&postcount=637) - by AustontheGreat1
Beholder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8501338&postcount=416) - by AustontheGreat1
Blackscale (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9080902&postcount=1191) - by Gorgondantess
Bleakborn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9618000&postcount=669) - by CraftyCultist
Blink Dog (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8325734&postcount=330) - by AustontheGreat1
Brain in a Jar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8674054&postcount=649) - by Draken
Bralani (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9059764&postcount=1145) - by BelGareth
Bugbear (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9243419&postcount=143) - by Crafty Cultist

C

Cat, Awakened (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9959014&postcount=442) - by Gorgondantess
Centaur (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10494644&postcount=1151) - by Hyudra
Cheshire Cat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9803718&postcount=1249) - by Geckoking
Cloaker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10126561&postcount=23) - by Saidoro
Cloud Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9569988&postcount=533)vby Hyudra
Coatl (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9237490&postcount=117)vby Kobold-Bard
Cornugon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9201680&postcount=1446) - by Gorgondantess

D

Daeva (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9734048&postcount=1033) - by Gorgondantess
Death Drinker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9236124&postcount=90) - by Oslecamo
Death Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9405915&postcount=547) - by monkman
Djinni (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7960967&postcount=43) - by Oslecamo
Displacer Beast (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9094837&postcount=1225) - by Hyudra
Doppelganger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8160461&postcount=258) - by Oslecamo
Dracotaur (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9380867&postcount=454) - by monkman
Dragonne (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7956421&postcount=32) - by Oslecamo
Dream Larva (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9504956&postcount=215) - by Magicyop
Drider (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9630191&postcount=710) - by I_Am_An_Undead/Lix Lorn
Drow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10473291&postcount=924) - by Hyudra
Dryad (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8131810&postcount=243) - by Bodez/Oslecamo
Duergar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9285918&postcount=275) - by Jallorn

E

Earth Elemental (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8946427&postcount=996) - by AustontheGreat1
Entomber (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8787260&postcount=750) - by Gorgondantess
Entropic Reaper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8911700&postcount=920) - by Crafty_Cultist
Erinyes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8024351&postcount=144) - by Oslecamo
Ettin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9471641&postcount=121) - by Temotei

F

Firbolg (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8588088&postcount=490) - by Oslecamo
Fire Elemental (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9234777&postcount=82) - by AustontheGreat1
Flind Gnoll (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9258321&postcount=184) - by Gorgondantess
Force Golem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8983373&postcount=1020) - by Gorgondantess
Forest Troll (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9466013&postcount=82) - by Volt
Fire Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8936547&postcount=968) - by Hyudra
Frost Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8591700&postcount=510) - by Hyudra

G

Gadacro (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10634728&postcount=246) - by Lord_Gareth
Gelatinous Cube (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9385418&postcount=467) - by Kobold-Bard
Ghaele Eladrin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9212463&postcount=10) - by Oslecamo
Ghost (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8112651&postcount=215) - by Oslecamo
Ghoul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8164244&postcount=269) - by CraftY_Cultist/Oslecamo
Gibbering Mouther (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9925238&postcount=180) - by Betropper
Githzerai/Githyanki (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9615407&postcount=659) - by Chumplump
Glass Golem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9550833&postcount=480) - by Cogidubnus
Gloom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8017974&postcount=129) - by Oslecamo
Gnoll (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8166791&postcount=274) - by Oslecamo
Goristro (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9463971&postcount=19) - by Monkman
Gray Jester (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7988336&postcount=92) - by Oslecamo
Green Hag (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9405322&postcount=539) - by ChumpLump
Grimlock (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7966772&postcount=54) - by Oslecamo
Griffon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9074825&postcount=1170) - by AustontheGreat1
Gynosphynx (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8574795&postcount=460) - by Volt

H

Harpy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8895469&postcount=872) - by Hyudra
Hell Hound (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9094826&postcount=1224) - by Crafty Cultist
Hill Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8476867&postcount=360) - by Hyudra
Hound Archon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7987311&postcount=89) - by Oslecamo
Hook Horror (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8940925&postcount=984) - by Frog Dragon
Hydra (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9338086&postcount=357) - by Oslecamo

I

Imp (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9047328&postcount=1087) - by Hyudra
Iron Golem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8982582&postcount=1018) - by Gorgodantess

J

Janni (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9242948&postcount=141) - by Kobold-Bard

K

Kaorti (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8843416&postcount=809) - by Crafty Cultist
Karsite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10347003&postcount=426) - by Kobold Bard
Kuo-Toa (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9081372&postcount=1195) - by Hyudra
Kython (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9264340&postcount=217) - by Crafty_Cultist
Kyton (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9392273&postcount=512) - by ChumpLump

L

Lammasu (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9951605&postcount=371) - by Kobold-Bard
Lantern Archon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9147212&postcount=1301) - by Volt
Leonal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9059764&postcount=1145) - by BelGareth
Lillend (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8097854&postcount=208) - by Oslecamo
Lizardfolk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9080902&postcount=1191) - by Gorgondantess
Locathah (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10265374&postcount=217) - by Gorgondantess
Lodestone Marauder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10262500&postcount=196) - by ScionoftheVoid

M

Manticore (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10000950&postcount=582) - by Hyudra
Marilith (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8132375&postcount=246) - by Oslecamo
Marrash (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10308045&postcount=324) - by Zemro Shivic
Marrutact (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9029376&postcount=1044) - by Gorgodantess
Marraenoloth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9231506&postcount=69) - by Gorgondantess
Medusa (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10343087&postcount=418) - by Hyudra
Mimic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9464961&postcount=60) - by Sciencepanda
Mind Flayer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7947714&postcount=13) - by Oslecamo
Mindflayer, Psionic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9159107&postcount=1357) - by Gorgondantess
Minotaur (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10295137&postcount=275) - by Hyudra
Mephit (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8678862&postcount=664) - by Hyudra
Mezzoloth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9015485&postcount=1034) - by Frog Dragon
Monstrous Spider (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10404448&postcount=542) - by Hyudra
Movanic Deva (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9430145&postcount=596) - by Oslecamo
Mummy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7977252&postcount=82) - by Oslecamo
MurderJack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9236908&postcount=102) - by FlickerDart/Oslecamo

N

Nashrou (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9525115&postcount=390) - by Makiru
Nerra (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8492973&postcount=390) - by Draken
Nimblewright (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9471896&postcount=123) - by Temotei
Nixie (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8034400&postcount=162) - by Oslecamo
Nycaloth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9044409&postcount=1060) - by Frog Dragon
Nymph (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8167378&postcount=278) - by Bodez

O

Ogre Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7951939&postcount=29) - by Oslecamo
Ogre (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8789542&postcount=758) - by Hyudra
Owlbear (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9367442&postcount=407) - by Kobold-Bard

P

Pegasus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9235441&postcount=86) - by FirebirdFlying
Phasm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8055617&postcount=172) - by Oslecamo
Phoelarch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9516820&postcount=326) - by AustontheGreat1
Phoenix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9633413&postcount=722) - by Oslecamo/AustontheGreat1
Pit fiend (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7976670&postcount=80) - by Oslecamo
Pixie (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8592607&postcount=512) - by Aranii
Planetouched (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9041408&postcount=1052) - by Gorgodantess
Poison Dusk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9080902&postcount=1191) - by Gorgondantess
Pseudo-Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9229026&postcount=55) - by Kobold-Bard
Purple Worm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9604492&postcount=638) - by Hyudra

Q

R

Rakshasa (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7956421&postcount=32) - by Oslecamo
Rakshasa, Naztharune (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9257676&postcount=178) - by Gorgondantess
Ravid (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9234635&postcount=81) - by Kobold-Bard
Red slaad (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7957540&postcount=37) - by Oslecamo
Redcap (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8603621&postcount=534) - by Draken
Reptilians (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9080902&postcount=1191) - by Gorgondantess
Reth Dekala (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8881599&postcount=835) - by Gorgondantess
Roving Mauler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9477550&postcount=171) - by Makiru
Rukanyr (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9252804&postcount=161) - by Makiru
Rust Monster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9402966&postcount=534) - by Kobold-Bard

S

Saguaro Sentinel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10405090&postcount=545) - by Gorgondantess
Sahuagin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9072388&postcount=1164) - by Crafty Cultist
Salamander (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9234376&postcount=77) - by Oslecamo
ScorpionFolk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8885793&postcount=839) - by Frog Dragon
Sea Hag (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9405362&postcount=542) - by ChumpLump
Shadowperson (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9588719&postcount=590) - by AustontheGreat1
Shaedling (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9660218&postcount=805) - by Monkman/Gorgondantess
Silthilar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8913176&postcount=924) - by AustonTheGreat1
Skeroloth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10253686&postcount=172) - by Frog Dragon
Slaad (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8568028&postcount=445) - by Trenelus
Solamith (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9773475&postcount=1173) - by Makiru
Son/Daughter of Silence (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9219759&postcount=37) - by Oslecamo
Soulspark (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9496930&postcount=209) - by Niezck
Succubus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7951939&postcount=29) - by Oslecamo
Spell Weaver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9262850&postcount=196) - by Winter King
Stone giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8589236&postcount=495) - by Hyudra
Sverfineblin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9479186&postcount=185) - by ChumpLump

T

Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9148817&postcount=1307) - by Oslecamo
Tengu (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9197614&postcount=1434) - by Oslecamo
Thorn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9876046&postcount=87) - by Zemro Shivic
Thri-Kreen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8017743&postcount=128) - by Oslecamo
Titan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9473369&postcount=145) - by Kobold Bard
Treant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9386283&postcount=485) - by Niezck
Troglodyte (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9080902&postcount=1191) - by Gorgondantess
Troll (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10262043&postcount=191) - By Hyudra
Tsochar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9226721&postcount=48) - by Oslecamo

U

Unicorn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9235441&postcount=86) - by FirebirdFlying

V

Valkyrie (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9771437&postcount=1154) - By Niezck
Vargouille (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7966939&postcount=56) - by Oslecamo
Vasuthant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7974321&postcount=75) - by Oslecamo
Vrock (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8940273&postcount=981) - by Gorgondantess

W

Water Elemental (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9465968&postcount=77) - by AustontheGreat1
Wight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9238635&postcount=127) - by Crafty Cultist
Wild Hunt (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9399221&postcount=519) - by Oslecamo
Will-O-Wisp (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9254674&postcount=170) - by Kobold-Bard
Winter Wolf (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8890538&postcount=856) - by Frog Dragon
Wyvern (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9080278&postcount=1186) - by Hyudra

X

Xill (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8078928&postcount=203) - by ScionoftheVoid

Y

Yuan-ti (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8017736&postcount=127) - by Oslecamo

Z

Zelekhut(inevitable) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7951028&postcount=26) - by Oslecamo
Zern (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8903096&postcount=899) - by AustontheGreat1

True Dragons:
Blue Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7941947&postcount=2) - by Oslecamo
Bronze Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9261499&postcount=189) - [b]by Gorgondantess/Oslecamo
Fang dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9317804&postcount=320) - by unknown
Golden Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9260930&postcount=187) - by Oslecamo
Green Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9260954&postcount=188) - by un_known
Red Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165439&postcount=1) - by Oslecamo
Purple Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8927061&postcount=949) - by Oslecamo
Pyroclastic dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9264141&postcount=212) - by Kyuubi/Oslecamo
Silver Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8002450&postcount=108) - by Oslecamo
Styx Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9905425&postcount=158) - by Kyuubi/Oslecamo
White Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9324083&postcount=355) - by un_known
Wing Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7962320&postcount=47) - by Oslecamo

Prestige Monster Classes

C

Creature of Legend (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9077277&postcount=1173) - by Hyudra

D

Death Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9405915&postcount=547) - by Monkman

E

Evolved Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9511014&postcount=240) - by Gorgondantess

F

Feral Creature (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9472386&postcount=132) - by Niezck

G
Golden Protector (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9951670&postcount=373) - by Kobold-Bard
Gravetouched Ghoul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9567011&postcount=524) - by Hyudra

Half-

Half-Celestial (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8538254&postcount=434) - by Crafty Cultist
Half-Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8159828&postcount=257) - by Oslecamo
Half-Fey (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9538153&postcount=443) - by Kobold-Bard
Half-Fiend (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8535660&postcount=428) - by Crafty Cultist
Half-Golem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9157221&postcount=1345) - by Oslecamo
Half-Illithid (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8842357&postcount=807) - by Crafty Cultist
Half-Troll (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8911522&postcount=918) - by flabort

H

Horrid Monster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9520824&postcount=353) - by Hyudra

K

Kython, Impaler and Slaymaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9273463&postcount=252) - by Crafty Cultist
Kython, Slaughterking (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9281500&postcount=270) - by Crafty Cultist

L

Lich (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8535643&postcount=427) - by Crafty Cultist

P

Phrenic Creature (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9910955&postcount=8) - by Niezck

S

Saint (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9660268&postcount=810) - by Magicyop
Spellwarped Creature (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8911423&postcount=916) - by Frog Dragon/Oslecamo
Swarmshifter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9915101&postcount=36) - by TheGeckoKing

U

Ulitharid (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9047316&postcount=1086) - by Oslecamo
Unholy Scion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9581603&postcount=559) - by Monkman

V

Vampire (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8056982&postcount=173) - by Oslecamo

W

War Troll (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9405329&postcount=540) - by Monkman
Winged Template (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9472231&postcount=125) - by Niezck

Therianthropes:

Wereconstrictor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9176252&postcount=1395) - by ChumpLump
Werecheetah (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9224377&postcount=44) - by ChumpLump
Wereleopard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9224377&postcount=44) - by ChumpLump
Werelion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9224377&postcount=44) - by ChumpLump
Wereraptor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9915168&postcount=39) - by Betropper
Wererat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9176252&postcount=1395) - by ChumpLump
Werespider Hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9172249&postcount=1384) - by ChumpLump
Werespider Weaver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9172249&postcount=1384) - by ChumpLump
Weretiger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9224377&postcount=44) - by ChumpLump
Wereviper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9176252&postcount=1395) - by ChumpLump

Hyudra

2011-03-23, 09:24 PM

Unfinished Monster Classes
{table=head]Monster|Council Approvals|Notes

Gray Jester (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10051752&postcount=693) ||Abandoned 2-12-2011, re-adopted by original creator 3-23-2011.

Pandorym (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9943992&postcount=295)||

Jovoc (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9955384&postcount=425)|Hyudra|

Gargoyle (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9959382&postcount=443)|Hyudra|

Remorhaz (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9980073&postcount=505)||

Vivisector (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10219990&postcount=129)|Hyudra|

Razor Boar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10227868&postcount=139)|Hyudra|

Ettercap (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10249821&postcount=152)||

Aboleth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10367328&postcount=473)||Replacing old Aboleth with one that meets current standards.

Ragewalker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10374313&postcount=495)||

Phase Wasp (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10399951&postcount=524)|Hyudra|

Violet Fungus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10400122&postcount=526)|Hyudra|

Chuul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10414321&postcount=585)||

Hooded Pupil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10449208&postcount=711)||

Psurlon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10449916&postcount=735)||

Phantom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10461724&postcount=881)||

Unbodied (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10469494&postcount=906)||

Greenbound Creature (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10472865&postcount=920)||Also Greenbound Paragon, Plant Symbionts.

Justice Archon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10474880&postcount=941)|Hyudra|

Coure Eladrin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10480332#post10480332)|Hyudra|

Half Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10494357&postcount=1145)||NinethePuma's version.

Grick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10509720&postcount=1208)||

Assassin Vine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10527069&postcount=1249)||

Sharakim (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10527113&postcount=1250)||

Frostwind Virago (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10568242&postcount=1312)||List of powers to be found Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10568249&postcount=1313)

Garngrath (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10576259&postcount=1320)||

Brass Golem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10588318&postcount=1361)||

Half-Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10609763&postcount=1399)||Gorgondantess' version.

Black Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10246297&postcount=148)||Massively revised version of previously posted version by same author.[/table]

Abandoned Monsters

The following table lists monsters deemed 'abandoned', either voluntarily ("I'm not going to finish this") or due to inactive posting/lack of responses to critiques. If you wish to reclaim a monster of yours that was abandoned, inform a mod. If you wish to adopt a monster abandoned by another, attempt contacting the original poster, then seek council permission. If deemed appropriate by the council, depending on the monster and how close it is to being done, you should then post in the main thread expressing your interest to adopt the monster and what your plans are for it (starting fresh, just finishing what's there, what kind of abilities you're thinking of & what sort of fixes you're pondering). If someone else wishes to adopt the monster too, you should work out an agreement or compromise, or seek the input of others as to who has the stronger ideas. Once that is done, you may pick up that monster and make any changes necessary to get it up to your & our standards.

{table=head]Monster|Abandoned On|Notes
Yellow Musk Creeper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9924181&postcount=152)|12-13-10|Adopted by creator again 02-08-10, re-abandoned after no activity in 9 days.
Living Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9764043&postcount=1133)|12-14-10|Adopted by creator again 02-08-10, re-abandoned after no activity in 9 days.
Animated Object (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9867627&postcount=50)|12-16-10|Adopted by creator again 02-08-10, re-abandoned after no activity in 9 days.
Wendigo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9981253&postcount=518)|12-21-10|Adopted by creator again 02-08-10, re-abandoned after no activity in 9 days.
Werescorpion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9932318&postcount=207)|12-09-10|
Maug (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9725817&postcount=1014)|12-10-10|
Death Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9725817&postcount=1014)|12-10-10|
Grell (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9883082&postcount=95)|12-12-10|
Demilich (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9954097&postcount=400)|12-17-10|
Half-Elemental (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10021991&postcount=640)|12-22-10|
Flesh Golem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10073494&postcount=714)|1-08-11|
Dwarf Ancestor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9967230&postcount=491)|1-12-11|
Storm Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10166809&postcount=99)|1-23-11|
Corrupted Creature (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10331050&postcount=365)|2-08-11|
Hellfire Wyrm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10271903&postcount=254)|2-17-11|
Briarvex (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10000991&postcount=583)|2-24-11|Abandoned 12-22-10, adopted by original creator 2-24-11.
Black Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10246297&postcount=149)|2-26-11|Presumably being reworked from the ground up.
Umber Hulk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9923822&postcount=149)|-|Voluntarily Abandoned, Flavor/Fluff Mismatch
Nightwalker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10297554&postcount=289)|-|Voluntarily Abandoned, Leaving GitP
Ragewalker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10021982&postcount=639)|-|Voluntarily Abandoned, No time to finish
Lemure (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10361230&postcount=457)|-|Voluntarily Abandoned. Was a creative experiment that failed.
Quasi-God (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10077255&postcount=719)|-|Creator resigning from project.
Rast (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10402041&postcount=530)|-|Creator resigning from project.
Magmin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10406969&postcount=556)|-|Creator resigning from project.
Half-Golem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179202)|-|Leaving as purview of the homebrew forum.

[/table]

Interest List
The following are monsters people have expressed interest in doing, and/or started but not yet posted:

Firre Eladrin: Benly
Energon: Benly
Yugoloths: Frog Dragon
Vistani: Chambers
Shadesteel Golem: Cognidibnus
Hangman Golem: Cognidibnus
Efreeti: Darthteej
Wild Hunt Revision: Gorgondantess
Ethergaunt: Gorgondantess
Ultroloth: Gorgondantess
Umber Hulk: Gorgondantess
Ghaele Eladrin: Gorgondantess
Gnoll: Gorgondantess
Astral Stalker: Hyudra
Doppleganger: Hyudra
Dryad: Hyudra
Ogre mage:: Hyudra
Rakshasa: Hyudra
Bugbear: Hyudra
Carrion Crawler: Hyudra
Chimera: Hyudra
Aspect of [deity]: Hyudra
Dinosaur: Hyudra
Equiceph:: Hyudra
Leucrotta:: Hyudra
Magma Hurler: Hyudra
Plague Walker: Hyudra
Pseudonatural Creature: Hyudra
Titanic Creature: Hyudra
Vivacious Creature: Hyudra
Monstrous Centipede: Hyudra
Ulgurstasta: Hyudra
Skulking Cyst: Hyudra
Silver Dragon: Kyuubi
Succubus: Lix Lorn
Gadacro: Lord Gareth
Sirine: Lord Gareth
Illurien: Lord Gareth
Marilith: Lord Gareth
Hagumemnon(Protean): Magicyop
Elder Evil: Magicyop
Kalabon: Makiru
Homonculus: Mootoall
Needlefolk, Susurrus, and the Orcwort - Scio
Verdant Prince: Scionofthevoid
Holocaust Disciple: Scionofthevoid
Varakhat: TheGeckoKing
Lich: TheGeckoking
Karrash: Zemro Shivic
All Remaining Archons: Zemro Shivic
Hound Archon: Zemro Shivic first dibs, Hyudra second.

Hyudra

2011-03-23, 09:25 PM

Reserved post for additional details, new rules, news & featured monsters.

Previous Threads:

First Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142724)

Second Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165439)

Third Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170469)

Fourth Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177708)

Fifth Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178692)

Sixth Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182724)

Gorgondantess

2011-03-23, 10:22 PM

Justice Archon:

A Justice Archon looses all other
Loses!
Anyways, I think we should make a standardized ability along the lines of the other outsiders (demons, devils, yugoloth, eladrin, etc.) for archons. Wanna do it?

1st Round: The Justice Archon sees the degree of crimes the subject has committed, and the degree to which they have been punished. The degree of the crimes is based upon the subject's lawfulness, and the degree of punishment upon the subjects feelings about the repercussions. In either case, information is in general terms.
So a sociopath who murdered a bunch of babies and got barely any punishment, for whatever reason, but thought that the punishment was overboard (probably because he's insane) would be considered to have been punished thoroughly?

As their viewpoint is that of an observer they might witness details or facts the target is unaware of, have forgotten, or convinced were different.
I could totally see a player doing something like lying all the time so they have dozens of free recordings of various events for the Justice Archon party member to read off of.:smalltongue:

Justice Strike: I donno, boss. That's a little wonky. Probably abusable, too. At the least I'd cap it with a certain uses/day.

Rage-Like ability? You do realize that barbarians are nonlawful only?

She knows the distance up to the nearest 50ft if her within 500ft.
Reword.

While they remain within her threatened area, opponents cannot cast defensively or use abilities that require focus or concentration.
Way to pick on psions and diamond mind swordsages/warblades.

If they fail this save, they suffer the full brunt of the effect, even if they would normally not be subject to it from natural qualities or abilities.
Can of worms right there. How about an undead doing constitution damage? Or, better yet, how about an enemy mage casting dominate monster? Or will to disbelief an image spell? Grease? A resilient sphere- does suddenly a resilient sphere slam down over the enemy mage?

Wings: Light armor doesn't reduce fly speed.

Teleport: I'm leery about this. It solves a lot of quests that normally wouldn't be solvable until 3 levels later. Need to stock up while in a dungeon? Send out the justice archon! Need to warn the kingdom about the invasion- but in a tight spot? Send out the justice archon!
All in all, what I'd do is limit it to just teleporting to the quarry until 9 HD.

Other than that, though, I'm a little worried about the lack of active abilities. What will you be doing other than full attacking, even with justice strike? Well, nothing. Just give it one or two nifty little things to add some variety to battles. It could also use a slight power boost, so there you go.
Other than that, though, looking good.

Benly

2011-03-23, 10:48 PM

Bloody Initiate

2011-03-24, 12:07 AM

The Antigamer

2011-03-24, 12:33 AM

Just posting a link to the Gray Jester (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10610857&postcount=1401) changes I made in the last thread, so that they aren't overlooked with the new thread switch.

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-24, 12:45 AM

I'm not sure if this argument has ceased or not, but I wanted to weigh in re: half-dragons and say that I feel they should be a base class, not a prestige class. You're born a half-dragon or you're not, yes?

Frog Dragon

2011-03-24, 12:47 AM

Replaced the pics in my monsters with identical ones uploaded to my Imageshack account, assuming they weren't already on a similar image hosting service.

Edit: On half-dragons. I believe that you shouldn't be able to take Half-Dragon after taking levels in non-racial classes. So a Basilisk 3 could take a Half-Dragon level, but a Basilisk 3/Fighter 1 could not. Of course, the class probably shouldn't be taken at all unless the character has been visually described as half-dragon before, or in special circumstances.

Gorgondantess

2011-03-24, 12:49 AM

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-24, 12:53 AM

Every single template in this project is a prestige class.

But must this rule be iron-clad? Wouldn't inherited templates make more sense as base classes anyway? I mean, one turns into an undead being, but they get base class status.

Gorgondantess

2011-03-24, 12:56 AM

The goal behind the Half-Dragon (I think I've said this 10 times by now) isn't to make a "dragon but lesser", as every other iteration is, but to make a half-dragon, half-something else, and synergize the two. And as it'll likely be a humanoid qualifying for it, what special qualities do humanoids have? Base classes. I can't build off of a base class if it's not there.
I'd like to relate it to, say, a monster that has claws but can't use them until a later level. Well, a Half-Dragon is a Half-Dragon but doesn't actually gain Half-Dragon abilities until 2nd level. Though I'm thinking of requiring either a dragon heritage feat or dragonblood subtype or something like that. Thoughts?

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-24, 12:59 AM

Honestly, I think it's gonna cause you a lotta headaches, as the half-dragon's original defining characteristic was its overwhelming physical presence, as opposed to actually being dragon-like. Powerful build and the like may be appropriate, for example.

As far as pre-reqs, I dunno. I don't think Skills should be involved, but heritage feats lands us right back at step "why are they all gishes?". Perhaps require Imp Natural Attack and incorporate a feature that lets you swap it to your claws? No, too complicated...

HRM....

Gorgondantess

2011-03-24, 01:03 AM

Oh. By the way.
Try wrapping your head around a Half-Dragon minotaur. Just think about it for a few seconds. From a mechanical standpoint, I mean.
Or you can just replace "minotaur" with the monster class of your choice. I just chose minotaur because it was applicable.:smalltongue:

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-24, 01:05 AM

Gorgondantess

2011-03-24, 01:09 AM

Your half-dragon or core!half-dragon? 'Cause I've already moved well past that into half-dragon animate trees. Which have used their swordsage levels on my PCs.

"Can breed with any living, corporeal creature" means a LOT.

Any Half-Dragon monster class. And again, from a mechanical standpoint...
The point I'm getting at, is that you're saying that Half-Dragon should always be taken at level 1. Well, say you have an (insert monster class here) Half-Dragon. In this case, what do you have at level 1? Probably (insert monster class here). NOT Half-Dragon.

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-24, 01:12 AM

Any Half-Dragon monster class. And again, from a mechanical standpoint...
The point I'm getting at, is that you're saying that Half-Dragon should always be taken at level 1. Well, say you have an (insert monster class here) Half-Dragon. In this case, what do you have at level 1? Probably (insert monster class here). NOT Half-Dragon.

You make an excellent point, but one can also (theoretically) take [Monster Class X] after level one - such as if my Paladin gets turned by a Wight, or if my Polymorph gets hit by a Wild Magic Surge and I'm stuck as a Minotaur, so I feel that giving Half-Dragon the option to be taken at level one is appropriate. Plus it solves your pre-req headaches, as anything you can put in is either going to make no sense or be needlessly restrictive.

Gorgondantess

2011-03-24, 01:14 AM

You make an excellent point, but one can also (theoretically) take [Monster Class X] after level one - such as if my Paladin gets turned by a Wight, or if my Polymorph gets hit by a Wild Magic Surge and I'm stuck as a Minotaur, so I feel that giving Half-Dragon the option to be taken at level one is appropriate. Plus it solves your pre-req headaches, as anything you can put in is either going to make no sense or be needlessly restrictive.

Suddenly I'm struck by inspiration:
Allow Half-Dragon to be taken at level 1... but don't allow the 2nd level to be taken until a later time. All of the class dependent abilities are on the 2nd level, for the most part.

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-24, 01:16 AM

Suddenly I'm struck by inspiration:
Allow Half-Dragon to be taken at level 1... but don't allow the 2nd level to be taken until a later time. All of the class dependent abilities are on the 2nd level, for the most part.

Hrm, kinda like a racial sub level, but for any class? That might work. First level gets you the nat armor/wings/fun stuff, and the second level develops your relationship with dragons re: your class identity?

Gorgondantess

2011-03-24, 01:17 AM

Hrm, kinda like a racial sub level, but for any class? That might work. First level gets you the nat armor/wings/fun stuff, and the second level develops your relationship with dragons re: your class identity?

No, like the Ardent Dilettante. You need to meet some prerequisites to take the 2nd level of the class that you don't need to meet for the 1st level of the class. So, for example, you couldn't take your second level in Half-Dragon, but you could do Half-Dragon 1/Sorcerer 1/Half-Dragon 1.

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-24, 01:20 AM

No, like the Ardent Dilettante. You need to meet some prerequisites to take the 2nd level of the class that you don't need to meet for the 1st level of the class. So, for example, you couldn't take your second level in Half-Dragon, but you could do Half-Dragon 1/Sorcerer 1/Half-Dragon 1.

Eh, I'd have to see proof-of-concept to really get it (since I've never even heard of your example), but I'm all for a solution that can un-gish the concept and divorce it from lolcasters.

Because, frankly, all of the dragons in my games IRL? Xorvintaal dragons.

Gorgondantess

2011-03-24, 01:27 AM

Eh, I'd have to see proof-of-concept to really get it (since I've never even heard of your example), but I'm all for a solution that can un-gish the concept and divorce it from lolcasters.

Um. Have you seen my new Half-Dragon revision? It still has gishiness. It also has psionics, initiating, and mundane, and there's more to come (I'm thinking precision damage based classes- sneak attack, sudden strike, skirmish, etc.)

Anyways. Here's what I'm thinking.
Prerequisites for level 1: Any non-undead, non-construct with a true dragon as a parent.
Prerequisites for level 2:
Knowledge: X 4 ranks

1st level spontaneous spellcasting
OR
1st level manifesting
OR
Able to initiate 1st level maneuvers
OR
+1d6 sneak attack, sudden strike or skirmish
etc.
And then the 2nd level is different depending on what qualification they met.

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-24, 01:29 AM

Um. Have you seen my new Half-Dragon revision? It still has gishiness. It also has psionics, initiating, and mundane, and there's more to come (I'm thinking precision damage based classes- sneak attack, sudden strike, skirmish, etc.)

Anyways. Here's what I'm thinking.
Prerequisites for level 1: Any non-undead, non-construct with a true dragon as a parent.
Prerequisites for level 2:
Knowledge: X 4 ranks

1st level spontaneous spellcasting
OR
1st level manifesting
OR
Able to initiate 1st level maneuvers
OR
+1d6 sneak attack, sudden strike or skirmish
etc.
And then the 2nd level is different depending on what qualification they met.

Binding! Incarnum! Shadow Magic! HARROWED!

Jokes (HARROOOOOOOOWED) aside, sounds like a good concept. Roll wit' it!

Gorgondantess

2011-03-24, 01:32 AM

Binding! Incarnum! Shadow Magic! HARROWED!

Jokes (HARROOOOOOOOWED) aside, sounds like a good concept. Roll wit' it!

Only problem is, I don't know Binding, Incarnum, or Shadow Magic. Might go for invoking? Anyways, I DID say I'd try to learn those... and from what I've seen thus far, I'm probably only going to do Incarnum.

radmelon

2011-03-24, 01:33 AM

Thread seven already. With this rate of posting, the improved monster class project may be one of the most popular of all time for GitP.

Gorgondantess

2011-03-24, 01:34 AM

Thread seven already. With this rate of posting, the improved monster class project may be one of the most popular of all time for GitP.

I'm pretty sure it IS the most popular of all time.:smallbiggrin:

Benly

2011-03-24, 01:37 AM

Only problem is, I don't know Binding, Incarnum, or Shadow Magic. Might go for invoking? Anyways, I DID say I'd try to learn those... and from what I've seen thus far, I'm probably only going to do Incarnum.

I don't really see any thematic way to link pact magic into dragon ancestry. Shadow magic could make sense, given that there are shadow dragons, and I believe there are also incarnum dragons. Maybe the shadow dragon variation could combine mysteries with some sort of stealth abilities and serve double duty as a roguely option, since as counterintuitive as it seems stealth dragons do show up a fair amount in D&D.

Gorgondantess

2011-03-24, 01:54 AM

I don't really see any thematic way to link pact magic into dragon ancestry. Shadow magic could make sense, given that there are shadow dragons, and I believe there are also incarnum dragons. Maybe the shadow dragon variation could combine mysteries with some sort of stealth abilities and serve double duty as a roguely option, since as counterintuitive as it seems stealth dragons do show up a fair amount in D&D.

Yeah, well, that's why I'll likely not be doing it. Also, I DID say I wasn't going to do binding... as far as I can see, pact magic just wouldn't work, and shadow magic... heh... hehah... HAHAHAHA. Seriously, who uses this stuff? It's less popular than truenaming.

Benly

2011-03-24, 02:01 AM

Yeah, well, that's why I'll likely not be doing it. Also, I DID say I wasn't going to do binding... as far as I can see, pact magic just wouldn't work, and shadow magic... heh... hehah... HAHAHAHA. Seriously, who uses this stuff? It's less popular than truenaming.

I think there's reasonable design space for good shadow-magic classes, just that the ones there are tend to be kind of crappo. Still, it's certainly not something that shrieks out for its own half-dragon mod.

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-24, 02:33 AM

Having been freshly licensed, I now stake my claim on revising the mess that is the Erinyes. Do you see all those rope-based abilities? Gone. All gone. And they are never coming back.

The Tygre

2011-03-24, 02:34 AM

Yeah, well, that's why I'll likely not be doing it. Also, I DID say I wasn't going to do binding... as far as I can see, pact magic just wouldn't work, and shadow magic... heh... hehah... HAHAHAHA. Seriously, who uses this stuff? It's less popular than truenaming.

Excuse me?! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74519)

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-24, 02:38 AM

Excuse me?! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74519)

RoC is an awesome poster, but most folks do ignore Shadow Magic.

Cogidubnus

2011-03-24, 02:50 AM

Gorgon, I think you've fixed the problem =D

Also, the way this'll be laid out will make it look far less like a gish class, cos it won't have that standard lose on spellcasting level format gishes do.

Did I get a reply to what I said about the spelling? I really hate 'aluminum' xD

NineThePuma

2011-03-24, 05:46 AM

Puma's Half-Dragon: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10494357&postcount=1145)

-I don't know if anyone has already given you hell for the chassis, if not I assume they will. I actually like it and think it's fine, but you can count on it not flying with anyone else.

No, they haven't. But I've got a bunch of fluff to back my decision.

-Draconic Legacy needs additional explanation. You start with a d12, so what happens when you upgrade? Just +1 per HD? If you think it's clear within the text, it may be, but the fact that I have to ask shows that it's not spelled out quite clearly enough.

Hopefully I made that clearer.

-Draconic Inheritance: Neat, you get whirling frenzy and rage and... fizzle. I don't know what the fascination is with DR/magic, but it's almost always underwhelming unless granted in huge amounts (Which yours is a decent amount, but it's still DR/magic). Also, since you lifted the rage variants straight out of other rage variants, do they count as rage for meeting prerequisites? It would be nice if they did.

It's the DR that dragons get. I actually blame WotC for reworking the DR system, to be honest. Before, you could have their DR be DR X/+5 and it'd work against damn near anything that wasn't a +5 weapon. After much deliberation over cheerios, I've decided to institute something similar.

-People around here like saying "Ambush Predator" don't they?

Prolly.

-Heritage Benefits; Lucky and Cloudwalker stand head and shoulders above the others, but most of these are just fine. You could get away with changing nothing about them, but I only realized that after going through them all, so instead of deleting my comments I decided to spoiler them. Gonna go over them all one-by-one.
I actually don't see how Cloudwalker is better, but okay.
Ambush Predator: I like. Nice and simple.
It helps that it's the oft maligned little brother of Hide in Plain Sight.
Sound Imitation: Seems OK, not my thing, but that doesn't mean it's bad, just that I'm a bad judge.
Lasting Fear: Is it common practice to leave enemies alive just to mess with them again later? If you are using NPC contacts you want good relations with the ones you'll deal with more than once, intimidate is for the throwaway guys. I guess it's not really that bad, I just often forget how much nicer other people are to NPCs. I might prefer something that worked like Deft Strike from CAdv for greens, but that's just me. Or maybe water breathing + act normally in water. It's not that special but nice to have.

Green dragons initiate fights with little or no provocation, picking on creatures of any size. If the target is intriguing or seems formidable, the dragon stalks the creature to determine the best time to strike and the most appropriate tactics to use. If the target appears weak, the dragon makes its presence known quickly—it enjoys evoking terror. Sometimes the dragon elects to control a humanoid creature through intimidation and suggestion. Green dragons especially like to question adventurers to learn more about their society and abilities, what is going on in the countryside, and if there is treasure nearby.
I was basing it around this, specifically the bolded part.
Fire Adaptation: What are smoke effects? I'm not the best optimizer or the most experienced D&D player, but that has got to be more obscure than weapons made of byeshk, and an obscure immunity is of questionable worth.
Its in the DMG, the effects of smoke. It's more of a side benefit to being fire proof, and this actually predates their breath weapon.
Ice Adaptation: Slightly less obscure than smoke effects. You might want to polish up the wording a bit, I can see how players and GMs would argue about just how much "immunity" this ability grants.
All of it? I clarified, but still, its daddy was a walking Popsicle lizard. It ain't gonna have an issue with the cold.
Ancestral Knowledge: Ok, I don't like bards, but stomping them with 2x HD = Bard Level for Bardic Knowledge seems kinda harsh. Why not just give a strong bonus to all knowledge effects, similar to the invocation that does it only with a scaling bonus? Knowledge Devotion is cool, Bardic Knowledge is lame. By the way, I don't actually see anything wrong with this ability, I just wanted to hate on bards.
:smallannoyed: You really like making me rework abilities, huh? (And I'm actually in an alright mood. You gave me a better idea.)
Wild Empathy: The Druid laughs at the Bard because the half-dragon only used his full HD instead of 2x his HD to steal the Druid class feature. This is fine btw.
The druid laughs at the Bard because the druid can turn into a bear and slaughter him, not because the Half-Dragon is better than him.
Prankster: Nice and neat.
I would hope so. It's (in my opinion) the weakest of the abilities. Prestidigitation is a 0th level spell, though Minor image is badass.
Lucky: So everyone will be half-gold then? This is not overpowered by itself, but it is dramatically more useful than a lot of the other heritage abilities.
What would you recommend to tone this down?
Cloudwalker: Ok, so some will be half-gold and the others will be half-silver. Once again, not problematic by itself, it just makes a lot of the other look lame by comparison.
Okay, so, what's so amazing about this?

-Additional Breath weapons; Ok, these are really cool :smallsmile:, I got excited reading these. However, there are some issues.

First off, did someone say you should spell out the save in every single entry? I feel like you should show the save calculation once or twice and say "this is always how the half-dragon's breath DC is calculated." Believe it or not repeatedly spelling things out has detrimental effects on comprehension. The more times you do it the more likely you are to slip up or vary, and if you spell it out every time it creates the illusion that it is different every time, shattering the reader's confidence in their own understanding. I guess it's a minor nitpick, but at some point you have to assume the reader is competent or else they won't be.

... Actually, I just thought they looked short and didn't want someone going "What's the DC on this? You didn't say." and make me go through and do it anyway. I've removed it though.

Onto the actual breath weapons:

Vitriolic Spray: This is actually really awesome, and a solid competitor with equivalent-level spells, but the range is unclear. Whether it's the range of the breath weapon as usual or not, it needs to be stated because you're changing the shape of the attack. Is it the same range as an orb spell? Explain it.
Yeah, fixed.

Cone of dehydration: At first I was worried because the damage was such crap, but then I realized it's a save-or-suck that's really hard to shake and I liked it a lot :smallcool:
I'm glad you like it. It's actually based on the Blue Dragon's Create/Destroy water ability, but weaponized.

Cone of fear: Looks fine.
Just a minor note, but this breath weapon was actually built around Fear Stacking. Which is part of why I have it set up the way I do.

Cone of Smoke: So THAT's what the smoke immunity was for! Unfortunately I have no idea whether this is any good or not, because you neglected to include a mechanical explanation of why it's bad to spend the round "choking and coughing." It better not be that lousy d6 of nonlethal, because that just sucks.
Okay, so, I added the "you spend it choking and coughing, unable to do anything else" clarifier. This is basically a SoD that happens REPEATEDLY.

Freezing Exhalation: Why am I lately tempted to name things goofy stuff like "Cool Minty Breath?" This one is good at low levels, but it will be left behind when flight comes into play.
Oh, good point. *makes it more useful*

*holds up my hands* These breath weapons are ALL actually from the monster manual.
Cone of Sleep: Ok, most of the breath weapons are save-or-sucks, but this one is a save-or-DIE with the same duration as the save-or-sucks. May I suggest lowering the duration to 1 round per 5 HD or something similar? Because as it is you have plenty of time to murder everyone. If you lower the duration you can still get at least one kill, and even though they all wake up sooner they are all prone now and flying targets fell to the ground. So to summarize: Putting people to sleep for even 1 round is awesome, there is no reason this guy should have the same duration as the poor green dragon's "shaky" breath.
Yeah, but you can STACK fear. It's hard to stack sleep. To be completely honest, ALL of these secondary things are potentially lethal SoD.

Cone of Repulsion: I read "Repulsion" and I got hopeful for a cool TK/Force Push-like effect. Making everyone run away isn't bad though. Although I will point out the tragic flaw in many people's estimation of what is effective in melee vs. what is cool in melee. Knocking people back looks really cool, but now you have to spend time closing the distance again! It's not actually bad at all, just wanted to go on a tangent because thorough critiques take awhile.
But what if you're a sorcerer? 'Cone of Repulsion' sends the enemy running away. Pretty nice, if you ask me. It's situational, but it's got uses. Plus, what if you don't WANT to kill someone? Just want them to leave you alone. Or you're hurting too badly to tank effectively. Etc. Etc.

Cone of Slow: Nasty. Good Nasty.

Cone of Weakness: Also good nasty.

Cone of Paralysis: See my thoughts on Cone of Sleep.

Aren't they nifty?

-Ability Increases: Ok, I get that you like being charismatic, I mentioned this last time I looked at the class. Even though you don't use charisma for anything, I suppose there's nothing wrong with +1 charisma.

I'll be completely and utterly honest. The +1 Cha is there because every single Dragon Heritage related feat ever has a Cha requirement.
*yawns, tired again* Took me almost two hours to reply and edit stuff.

Bloody Initiate

2011-03-24, 05:55 AM

Seeing that Gorgon might take his half-dragon in a different direction, I dug up my old post in case it could assist:

On Feral: Why not take a page from bloodlines and that ar-something dilletante that has weird requirements to advance?

So you take a a level of Feral and gain decent scaling abilities, but they stunt unless you take another level of Feral in a few levels, and if you take those levels you also get a nice gem.

Basically to stay impressively feral you have to go back to your feral ways every now and then. It keeps you from getting "too civilized".

So your first level grabs you Improved grab. You can't take the second level until you have 3 HD.

The second level grants you pounce and a bonus to your fast healing. You can't take the third level until you have 5 HD.

The third level gives you Rake and some other unlockables. You can't take the fourth level until you have 7 HD.

The fourth level gives you Rend and eventually, via HD minimums and advancement, an activateable power that partially counters FoM (Or your nice grapple character won't have anyone to grapple).

That's just a rough suggestion, but all this stuff is supposed to scale with HD anyway, it doesn't seem unfair to keep some of the really nice stuff from unlocking without further investment.

Cogidubnus

2011-03-24, 06:00 AM

You can get DR/+5 or +another number, it's just not used in any core monsters.

Kobold-Bard

2011-03-24, 06:01 AM

You can get DR/+5 or +another number, it's just not used in any core monsters.

That's because it's an outdated 3.0 mechanic. It was replaced in 3.5 with flat DR/Magic.

Bloody Initiate

2011-03-24, 06:13 AM

I don't see the problem with DR/-, DR/magic is throwaway DR. It's the DR you get when you don't care that you got DR.

In both half-dragon classes that are on the table the DR/magic was gained with SR, which is fine, and it moves the DR/magic into clear throwaway zone, which is good. I only wanted to point out the problem, not every problem needs to be fixed, because a lot of them are problems with something other than the specific entry (In this case, the problem is with 3.5's DR/magic being overcome by damn near everything).

Cogidubnus

2011-03-24, 06:21 AM

That's because it's an outdated 3.0 mechanic. It was replaced in 3.5 with flat DR/Magic.

It's in the MMII or MMIII.

Bloody Initiate

2011-03-24, 06:27 AM

It's in the MMII or MMIII.

That's because MMII is 3.0. There is an update document you can download, just google "Monster Manual II 3.5 update" or something like that and you'll find it.

That document is what led me to question the "no class skills for constructs" thing, because awhile back I was making a Nimblewright racial class and to do it justice used the MMII and the MMII 3.5 update.

Fiend Folio is an interesting transitional book (As is BoED) where they were writing it at the end of 3.0 and the start of 3.5 so it has bits from both (There is also a FF 3.5 update).

Kobold-Bard

2011-03-24, 06:28 AM

It's in the MMII or MMIII.

MM2 I believe is 3.0, having been released a year before 3.5 came out.

MM3 has DR/Magic, rather than numbers.

Cogidubnus

2011-03-24, 06:30 AM

So MM is more up-to-date than MMII?
That is SO confusing *cries*

Kobold-Bard

2011-03-24, 06:36 AM

So MM is more up-to-date than MMII?
That is SO confusing *cries*

Third one down is the MM2 update. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a)

NineThePuma

2011-03-24, 06:47 AM

That said, I put it back in. Why? Because, quite frankly, removing it caused issues all on its own.

Hyudra

2011-03-24, 07:20 AM

Having been freshly licensed, I now stake my claim on revising the mess that is the Erinyes. Do you see all those rope-based abilities? Gone. All gone. And they are never coming back.

I'm interested in doing Erinyes myself and have stated so in the past, but I haven't started anything and haven't put it on the called list. The general practice when two people express interest in doing the same class is for people to argue their own design goals & approach to the class, and to either come to a compromise, one to defer to the other or for others to chime in about which sounds better.

My intent would be to create something of a dark mirror to the Justice Archon, drawing from the flavor of the original Erinyes, the Greek Demigoddesses of Vengeance.

I was thinking I might try my hand at building it as an initiator class, mimicking some of the more supernatural/esoteric schools of the sublime way (desert wind, shadow hand). I think I could sell the Erinyes as a scout and airborne warrior with trademark weaponry not by having her enchant her weapons but by having her empower it with hellfire as part of her maneuvers. They're martial enough, arguably, for such to pass muster.

Failing that, my intent would be to do much as I did for the Centaur and provide an array of abilities over the levels to cover three areas: the Erinyes in melee, the erinyes at range and the erinyes with rope (the latter primarily being fixated on her quarry, such as it were).

The issue with a new license holder doing a medium length monster (and the reason we stress that first time creators should start something smaller) is that it really can drag on over time. There's monsters still on the unfinished list that were started 2 threads ago. If you're really keen on doing it, though, we can talk. What would your approach be?

Bloody Initiate

2011-03-24, 07:26 AM

On the Erinyes: Adding to Hyudra's notes, I always pictured the Erinyes as a Bounty Hunter type. Since they're freely humanoid I assumed they would be making a lot of missions out of Hell.

Coincidentally, I am actually working on my own Erinyes racial class right now (Did a stock MM version first, been slowly working on it for a couple weeks, inspired by that other guy's Erinyes thread), but had intended to post it in my own thread for several reasons (Not licensed, this project has one already, the revision is called, etc.).

Hyudra

2011-03-24, 07:36 AM

I've just unabashedly called dibs on a bunch of Oslecamo's old monsters, (Erinyes excepted - it is technically first come first serve, and Lord Gareth did beat me to her, pending the process), because I've already started brainstorming on several and would be interested in doing several others. I've also marked the Ghaele Eladrin & Gnoll as ones Gorgondantess has previously expressed interest in doing, in our past conversations, as we're kind of making an effort to phase out their original creator's work. I kind of want that process to go along more smoothly.

Edit: And finally got around to adding Zemro Shivic's calling of the various Archons and Scio's calling dibs on the Needlefolk, Susurrus, and the Orcwort to the front page.

NineThePuma

2011-03-24, 07:41 AM

I'd like to note, Hyudra, that Lix has been contemplating the Succubus, though I don't think she's said as much.

Given the ridiculous power level of the CURRENT succubus, I think someone could post a rather crappy version and be fine.

Hyudra

2011-03-24, 07:41 AM

If she is interested, and says so here/to me, then I'll add it to the front page.

NineThePuma

2011-03-24, 07:45 AM

I only found out cause I was tinkering with it, trying to figure out a way to balance it and asked her opinion. x3

I'll remind her next time I see her.

*yawns and sits down to dig through the giant pile of stuff and do something productive*

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-24, 07:48 AM

Hyudra

2011-03-24, 08:01 AM

Well Hyudra, if this ain't a little awkward >.>

While I like your "furies" idea, my concept was sticking a little closer to the established Erinyes. You may ask, rightfully, how I plan on differentiating them from Succubi, and my answer would be this: by going back to some old fluff and tweaking slightly. Erinyes are Baator's special agents, outside the normal rank-and-file of Hell; think of them almost as wealthy private citizens with licenses to kill. What Succubi do with individuals and organizations, Erinyes performs with nations and regions, slowly manipulating mortal politics until the poor fools are dancing on her tune. As such, my concept was more of a tempter or agent provocateur, using guile, charm, and betrayal to get ahead, with a spread of SLAs, a few passive abilities, and some rogue-ish traits to let her bend her enemies to her will or force them to turn against their allies.

The trouble with the Erinyes as a tempter is that you're stepping on Succubus toes there. As I view it, the devils are all about making deals, setting plans in motion and scheming... and the Erinyes is the mean-as-a-bucket-of-rusty-nails-soaked-in-brine enforcer they send after you should you break a deal. They're also the scouts that are sent to the material plane to keep an eye on the really important targets (kings, religious leaders, heroes) and to push events a little one way or the other if their lords see such as necessary, but that's not their primary role. As much as the Erinyes is a devil, she's portrayed very much as a warrior and a scout, statted up with less than stellar ranks in diplomacy and no ranks in hide or bluff that an agent provocateur might require.

In any event, don't view it as awkward - view it as a challenge to get as good a footing as you can prior to starting up the creature.

NineThePuma

2011-03-24, 08:29 AM

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-24, 08:45 AM

The trouble with the Erinyes as a tempter is that you're stepping on Succubus toes there. As I view it, the devils are all about making deals, setting plans in motion and scheming... and the Erinyes is the mean-as-a-bucket-of-rusty-nails-soaked-in-brine enforcer they send after you should you break a deal. They're also the scouts that are sent to the material plane to keep an eye on the really important targets (kings, religious leaders, heroes) and to push events a little one way or the other if their lords see such as necessary, but that's not their primary role. As much as the Erinyes is a devil, she's portrayed very much as a warrior and a scout, statted up with less than stellar ranks in diplomacy and no ranks in hide or bluff that an agent provocateur might require.

In any event, don't view it as awkward - view it as a challenge to get as good a footing as you can prior to starting up the creature.

See, I can understand how folks familiar with the Greek origins of the monster would see 'em that way, but I've never comprehended why folks have viewed the D&D Erinyes as being martial in nature, especially given that they always fight behind a screen of minions and are rather explicitly stated to not only fight dirty, but to have a coward's streak a mile wide; that's why I'd chosen a more rogue-ish concept. I mean, yes, it's similar to Succubus in some respects, but the Erinyes is already similar to Succubus in some respects - the key difference is planning and forethought, which is what lead me to the more deliberate flavor.

Admittedly, I also wanted an excuse to write up Traitor's Roar, but it fits.

Utterdark

2011-03-24, 09:01 AM

Comes out of no where.

I demand that the Half Dragon has a Truenaming adaptation! And a variant one using Kellus' Truenaming fix.

Runs away.

Bloody Initiate

2011-03-24, 09:18 AM

Comes out of no where.

I demand that the Half Dragon has a Truenaming adaptation! And a variant one using Kellus' Truenaming fix.

Runs away.

Truenaming and Pact Magic never struck me as racial abilities. Melshaping makes sense (I've never looked at Shadowcasting, not quite sure why it exists) and there's even an Incarnum Dragon, but the other two always seemed like something you learn. Plus, there are no dragons for those abilities (Although I admit there are none for Sublime Way either, but initiator levels are extremely flexible and getting full initiator level is good even without maneuver progression. That's not true of other level-dependent effects).

Of course it's not up to me what things get adapted into what other things, but I don't see the necessity to make a half-dragon for EVERYTHING, especially when there isn't even a dragon for everything.

Utterdark

2011-03-24, 09:29 AM

Truenaming and Pact Magic never struck me as racial abilities. Melshaping makes sense (I've never looked at Shadowcasting, not quite sure why it exists) and there's even an Incarnum Dragon, but the other two always seemed like something you learn. Plus, there are no dragons for those abilities (Although I admit there are none for Sublime Way either, but initiator levels are extremely flexible and getting full initiator level is good even without maneuver progression. That's not true of other level-dependent effects).

Of course it's not up to me what things get adapted into what other things, but I don't see the necessity to make a half-dragon for EVERYTHING, especially when there isn't even a dragon for everything.

Explain to me then the concept of Spellcasting dragons? How do they innately know spells? How does that work?

See? It makes as little or as much sense as a Spellcasting dragon.

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-24, 09:33 AM

Explain to me then the concept of Spellcasting dragons? How do they innately know spells? How does that work?

See? It makes as little or as much sense as a Spellcasting dragon.

Sadly, this is not the actual crux of the argument, but I suspect you might get some satisfaction if you put the request in the Homebrew Monster Classes thread.

Bloody Initiate

2011-03-24, 09:38 AM

Explain to me then the concept of Spellcasting dragons? How do they innately know spells? How does that work?

See? It makes as little or as much sense as a Spellcasting dragon.

No, it makes less sense than a spell-casting dragon. Dragons and outsiders are usually considered the source of magic (See heritage feats for Sorcerers).

Explain to ME the concept of spell-casting sorcerers?
[without heritage feats that say "I got my powers cuz my grandad was a dragon whose grandma was a fiend"]

See? Spell-casting never makes sense. 3.5 D&D never makes an attempt to explain how arcane spell-casting works, it just does. So it makes sense because it has to, or because you clutch a spellbook like a 3-year-old clutches a teddy bear.

However the fluff of Truenaming is that it is a learned skill, just as the fluff of Pact Magic is that it is a learned skill. That's just how they're explained, and they are explained, unlike arcane casting.

Hyudra

2011-03-24, 09:50 AM

I suggested this a few threads ago. The 'Status' column is just me looking over the thing and noting stuff. Since we've adopted a new template, going back and editing the various entries to match it would be cool.

I'm also skipping any of Oslecamo's classes, for a variety of reasons, most of which are balance related.

{table=head]Monster|Source|Role (4e style!)|Follow Up Class|Author|Status
Abishai (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9224087&postcount=41)|Fiendish Codex II|Controller|Melee Brute|Gorgondantess|Needs Cleaning (Copy Pasta errors)
Achaierai (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8926591&postcount=946)|Monster Manual/SRD|Striker|Scout|Gorgondantess|Needs Cleaning (It's very jokey. Do we want that sorta thing?)
Air Elemental (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8927531&postcount=952)|Monster Manual/SRD|Striker|Rogue|AustintheGreat1|
Allip (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9468452&postcount=105)|Monster Manual/SRD|Striker|???|Temotei|Its abilities are all very passive.
Anaxim (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9355044&postcount=378)|Epic Level Handbook/SRD|Striker|Epic|Draken|It's an Abomination!
Angel of Decay (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8589538&postcount=496)|Libris Mortis|Controller|Black Guard OR Dread Necromancer|Draken|Very SLA focused
Ankheg (Awakened) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9917457&postcount=99)|Monster Manual/SRD|Striker|Ninja|Kajhera|This thing, when mixed with precision damage, is scary.
Annis Hag (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8910218&postcount=915)|Monster Manual/SRD|Striker|Barbarian|Hyudra|Capstone is weak.[/table]

At this time, I'm doing the monsters alphabetically, and am stopping after a certain point (namely, when I get bored) during each update.

The follow up class that I list is merely what class makes sense to me from a mechanical standpoint, and has no bearing on what the actual creator might have wanted (That said, the creators are free to say "Oh, I wanted it to be X." and I can edit.)

I'm not a fan of the 4e style roles, and am ambivalent as far as the follow-up class. On the one hand, having a follow up class indicated would encourage people to think about such. On the other, it's fiddly, subjective and for 95% of the monsters in this thread, the ideal class to progress into is going to be an initiator class. If the roles were defined properly (beyond just 'striker') the follow-up class should be easy enough to figure from there. That, and the table would look tidier minus one column.

That said, the table does convey a lot of useful information well. It's still stuff I'd want in the monster entry itself (source, etc), but it's good to have there. I might recommend moving the author column next to/closer to the monster name column (to better associate the creator with the creation), so it would be Monster, Author, Source or Monster Source Author. Then I'd suggest bolding the table headings and potentially bolding the monster links as well, to make them more readable.

As Lord Gareth and I are at a... I don't want to say impasse. But we have stated our views and neither one has fallen to their knees and offered to let the other do the monster, I encourage others to chime in with their own view of what the Erinyes should be (or vote on how close/far they think my/Gareth's concept is to the base monster). I'm interested to hear, personally.

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-24, 09:52 AM

As Lord Gareth and I are at a... I don't want to say impasse. But we have stated our views and neither one has fallen to their knees and offered to let the other do the monster, I encourage others to chime in with their own view of what the Erinyes should be (or vote on how close/far they think my/Gareth's concept is to the base monster). I'm interested to hear, personally.

Can we at least both agree that the rope thing is A. stupid and B. stupid? :D

Hyudra

2011-03-24, 09:57 AM

Well, it's a part of the base monster, so it shouldn't be ignored entirely. It shouldn't be as big a part of the class as it is on Oslecamo's Erinyes though.

NineThePuma

2011-03-24, 09:59 AM

Just skimming, I'm noticing that we DON'T have any real non-striker classes, with the exception of things that are basically casters.

Ergo, I'ma go make some adjustments.

Hyudra

2011-03-24, 10:03 AM

Just skimming, I'm noticing that we DON'T have any real non-striker classes, with the exception of things that are basically casters.

Ergo, I'ma go make some adjustments.

Or just do away with the overly simplistic 4e system.

NineThePuma

2011-03-24, 10:04 AM

You wanna come up with roles that are broad enough to encompass more than one class, but narrow enough to be specific? :smallconfused:

Cause if you are, go ahead.

Updated the table.

Bloody Initiate

2011-03-24, 10:09 AM

Don't take this the wrong way, but I was under the impression that opinions other than the author's about how a monster should develop were mostly irrelevant. I thought that was the privilege and responsibility of the builder making the monster.

So if I say "The Bulette is really more of a rogue-type," as ridiculous as that is, if I'm the creator of the Bulette racial class I get to build along those lines.

I may find that Hyudra's vision of the Erinyes feels very close to my own, but Lord Gareth called it, and even though his vision feels more like that of the Pleasure Devil in Fiendish Codex II, as long as you can see some basis for the idea (Unlike the rogue Bulette) that's the idea the builder gets to build. You can suggest things, but you don't get to say "No, that's not how it is."

That was just my impression of the thing, though. I thought that was the whole reason there are "called" monsters, and I thought the half-dragon business was much more the exception rather than the rule. I could have misunderstood what you all intended, but I also never believed everyone in the thread had universally-aligned intents.

I only included my "I saw Erinyes as Bounty Hunter" bit to add to the ideas available to Lord Gareth, but he called it, and it's his class now. I never presumed to steer his vision.

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-24, 10:21 AM

Hyudra

2011-03-24, 10:21 AM

I may find that Hyudra's vision of the Erinyes feels very close to my own, but Lord Gareth called it, and even though his vision feels more like that of the Pleasure Devil in Fiendish Codex II, as long as you can see some basis for the idea (Unlike the rogue Bulette) that's the idea the builder gets to build. You can suggest things, but you don't get to say "No, that's not how it is."

That was just my impression of the thing, though. I thought that was the whole reason there are "called" monsters, and I thought the half-dragon business was much more the exception rather than the rule. I could have misunderstood what you all intended, but I also never believed everyone in the thread had universally-aligned intents.

I only included my "I saw Erinyes as Bounty Hunter" bit to add to the ideas available to Lord Gareth, but he called it, and it's his class now. I never presumed to steer his vision.

I'm not sure where you got that impression as to how things worked.

In any event, the called monster business is primarily to avoid having a situation where you're 90% done writing up a monster and someone else cuts in front of you and posts it. That's it.

In any event, there's three aspects at work here:
Lord Gareth is a newly licensed monster maker looking to tackle a CR 8 monster. This is borderline/above what we'd have people start with, as there tends to be a lot of extra hassle that goes into critiquing something that is both medium length and rife with newbie mistakes. There's a reason some longer monsters haven't been finished in over 50 pages of thread (which is why the rule was put in place to begin with). Normally I would discourage this (especially with the bloated unfinished list and the scarcity of critiques from non-council members) but I assume that Lord Gareth is really into doing the Erinyes and that he expressed said interest when talking to Gorgondantess.
Second, the general process of 'calling' a monster is also to allow people a chance to chime in and state if they are also interested in the monster, and for a decision to be made one way or the other.
Third, the process of requesting to revise a monster exists for much the same reason. For a monster that's been in the thread for a while, there's undoubtedly numerous people who've looked at it and thought "I think I can do better", and they deserve a chance to do so. Further, with the effort that goes into designing & critiquing a monster, we want to ensure the second result is definitely going to be better than the previous. While that's not hard with Oslecamo's work, a drawn out effort to do so is liable to frustrate all involved (see Aboleth).

Calling a monster does not quite establish the claim you imply, Initiate.

NineThePuma

2011-03-24, 10:22 AM

*fiddles with the Tarrasque*

I've gotta build a Tarrasque for my campaign EVENTUALLY. Might as well make him a sexy one.

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-24, 10:33 AM

Bloody Initiate

2011-03-24, 10:39 AM

I'm not sure where you got that impression as to how things worked.

In any event, the called monster business is primarily to avoid having a situation where you're 90% done writing up a monster and someone else cuts in front of you and posts it. That's it.

I got that.

It actually does establish the claim I imply, because either people are working on a monster or nobody is, and if he's working on it then he has the final say in all of its abilities. It is not up for community vote.

Can the monster be "taken away" from him? Sure, but if it's his he gets to make the way he wants because how else could anyone possibly stand to create anything? Either he's doing it and it's up to him, or he's not.

Also, since there is no format for "taking" monsters away from people and furthermore no one has any idea how good the final product of either author will be, you can't make a fair judgment until the class is posted. So "calling" it means it's yours, because no one can justify taking it away before you post it.

That's the logical conclusion of staking a claim. You either get it or you don't, and if you do then it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks until you post it for review.

If you want everyone pouting and making their own versions of everyone's favorite monsters that's fine, but don't pretend it accomplishes anything.
The nebulous goal of this thread is to create a playable monster class for every monster in official material.
...not 53 Erinyes variants and 79 half-dragon variants.

He called it, you asked what everyone thinks, that's what I think. People can give input, they don't have veto power.

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-24, 10:48 AM

Calm down a bit, Initiate. I'm the guy trying to make the class and I'm not that emotionally invested in it.

NineThePuma

2011-03-24, 10:57 AM

I think it has more to do with precedent than anything else, mi'lord.

If the monster isn't on the Called Monster List, it should be fair game, IMO. Heck, IIRC, Gareth REQUESTED that someone redo the class two topics ago. That has not occurred. Him deciding to take matters into his own hands...

*shrugs* Doesn't actually matter to me.

Bloody Initiate

2011-03-24, 10:58 AM

I apologize if my post seemed overly hostile, I obviously elaborated more than I needed to in both posts and thereby created confusion.

Calm down a bit, Initiate. I'm the guy trying to make the class and I'm not that emotionally invested in it.

My view is simple: I will offer input whenever it occurs to me or when someone asks for it, but until then the creation is up to them.

In this case, since you called the Erinyes, I view her creation as up to you. So my answer to Hyudra's appeal was simply: Lord Gareth called it.

I may have my own views on how the Erinyes should develop, but I'm not licensed, it's been called, and before it was called it was created before I ever got here. Since the Erinyes's design was never up to me, it felt odd to have someone say "it's up to you guys" when according to my view it wasn't, and never was.

My view is actually the product of experience. I may think I have really cool ideas, but creativity is constantly refined and improved by multiple inputs (As I have been shown in the past). So again, while I may think my view of the Erinyes is pretty cool, I believe in the ability of others to create things I didn't think of that I might also find pretty cool. The potential of those things is more important to me than the validation of my own vision, and I think other people should have similar priorities.

I also have a Nimblewright and a Force Golem class all written up and ready to go... but the Nimblewright and Force Golem are already done here, and therefore my creations don't have a place here. That's my thoughts on the Erinyes as well. My creations are not automatically better than anyone else's, I assume all are equal in potential, so the ONLY fair judge is "first come first serve." I am OK with this.

Your idea of the Erinyes is not mine, but you have an opportunity to impress me - and Hyudra and everyone else with thoughts on the matter. Do it.

EDIT: It's all a lot less dire and serious than I make it sound. I just have a lot of back up for decisions I make quickly, which is the very reason I was able to make them quickly. Kinda like if you know you're lactose intolerant you can answer "no" very quickly to an offer of ice cream.

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-24, 11:17 AM

Utterdark

2011-03-24, 11:19 AM

No, it makes less sense than a spell-casting dragon. Dragons and outsiders are usually considered the source of magic (See heritage feats for Sorcerers).

Explain to ME the concept of spell-casting sorcerers?
[without heritage feats that say "I got my powers cuz my grandad was a dragon whose grandma was a fiend"]

See? Spell-casting never makes sense. 3.5 D&D never makes an attempt to explain how arcane spell-casting works, it just does. So it makes sense because it has to, or because you clutch a spellbook like a 3-year-old clutches a teddy bear.

However the fluff of Truenaming is that it is a learned skill, just as the fluff of Pact Magic is that it is a learned skill. That's just how they're explained, and they are explained, unlike arcane casting.

And? You can have an innate understanding of Truenaming just as easily as you can have an innate understanding of Spellcasting? Your argument is only valid under the assumption that dragons and outsiders are the source of magic - which is an assumption based off of no actual facts. Present to me a rule that states that, and I'll be appeased. ( Well, on these grounds at least. )

Also: Spellcasting is just as much a learned skill as Truenaming; if it weren't, then how could you get better with experience?

Frog Dragon

2011-03-24, 11:19 AM

IMHO, since the pleasure devil already exists, I'd rather take the Erinyes into the furies direction to avoid stepping on even more toes, and maybe create something more interesting.

However, I'm not the maker of the class, and I don't even want to make it, so my opinion is largely irrelevant right now.

*Stalks back over to his dragon.*

The Dragon Mage path is now done up to level 9, and the War Dragon up to level 5. This means I need 2 more Mage abilities, 3 more Warrior abilities, and a capstone for both sides. Also, more breath powers.

I'm getting there, slowly.

Bloody Initiate

2011-03-24, 11:32 AM

And? You can have an innate understanding of Truenaming just as easily as you can have an innate understanding of Spellcasting? Your argument is only valid under the assumption that dragons and outsiders are the source of magic - which is an assumption based off of no actual facts. Present to me a rule that states that, and I'll be appeased. ( Well, on these grounds at least. )

Also: Spellcasting is just as much a learned skill as Truenaming; if it weren't, then how could you get better with experience?

Thankfully I have no interest in appeasing you.

There is no actual source of D&D magic, I said that in my first post. They never tried to explain it in core, only in supplements, which are considered less valid because they're supplements, even if such a generalization makes little sense (Products written later with more hindsight are considered inferior to first tries?!?).

Since this is purely a fluff discussion and I can see its lack of definitive conclusion from miles away, I gleefully decline to participate in continued exploration of the matter.

To summarize: This has bored me very quickly so I'm not going to continue discussing it. It also doesn't have a place in this thread.

NineThePuma

2011-03-24, 11:33 AM

Find me a Dragon with True naming and we'll talk dude. Til then, sorry, no dice.

The Tygre

2011-03-24, 11:43 AM

I'm backing Gareth on the Erinyes this round. If there's one thing I trust Gareth with, it's Fiends and dark beasties n' such. The Erinyes is in good hands with him. Second, I'm a Planescape-er. I remember Erinyes as the seductresses of Hell. They're special agents, the evil Bond Girls of the planes, so to speak. There's a reason Glasya, Fierna, and Belial are their commanders instead of Lilith and the Hag Countess. What? You think Lawfuls don't have needs too? :smalltongue:

Frog Dragon

2011-03-24, 11:44 AM

If anyone has any ideas for Path abilities, these are the flavors I'm shooting for.

The Dragon Mage is a draconic spellcaster, priding itself in refined knowledge of magic far greater than those of lesser magicians. However, it is still a dragon, in an its awe, and while it mostly utilizes its spellcasting capabilities, it is certainly not above using its considerable physical might and the natural fear its form sparks in others.

The War Dragon is an expert stalker, a powerful warrior, and a master of terror tactics. It is the kind of creature that somehow stalks you through the forest despite dwarfing you 10 times over without you ever noticing. When it attacks, its enemies flee, if they get the chance. Typically, they do not even have the chance to overcome their panic before being ripped apart.

As a mechanical note, neither have frightful presence. The dragon mage can cause panic with flashy magic and ominous draconic chants (Ability named Awesome Magic, gained at level 9, fear effects on spells), while the war dragon inspires fear with the sheer instinctive panic of being surprise attacked by a dragon (Ability named "Holy &%"# It's a dragon!", gained at level 5, which really does need work. :smalltongue:. It forces fear saves, grants damage bonuses and forces init penalties when the dragon charges in the surprise round). It would be the equivalent of being jumped by a bear.

Anyone have any more ideas? Note that I already included breath weapon spellcasting and a supercharged magic sense for the Dragon Mage, and a bonus to stealth skills (a big one, basically darkstalker with extras in ignoring size penalties and gaining other bonuses) to the War Dragon.

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-24, 11:44 AM

Hyudra

2011-03-24, 11:48 AM

For my end of things, Hyudra, Gorgon agreed to let me attempt Erinyes (this before either of us realized you had a prior claim) because I do have extensive class-based homebrewing experience. I may be new to the project, but I'm not precisely green as grass either, hey?

I wasn't aware he'd given permission to do it. I really, really wish Gorgondantess had run it by me. This is the second time he has gone and given someone permission to do a monster I've told him I was interested in doing without checking with me. This frustrates me.

It also doesn't have a place in this thread.

You have a habit, Initiate, of deciding the way things work and then talking as though it were a given.

Let me just say the whole 'calling' or 'adopting' or 'revising' process involves posting on the main thread expressly so people can chime in if they're also interested in doing the monster, and so a consensus can be reached between them. Kyuubi is with me on this. Gorgondantess is having internet problems so he's unfortunately unable to chime in unless he has access to school computers. You can say it works differently and say it often, but that doesn't really change matters.

What was asked was "Which concept do you see as being more on target flavorwise." Thank you for, in the midst of your deciding the way things work for us, giving an answer to that question.

Now all that said, Gorgon did give permission to do the monster to Lord_Gareth. Given that Gareth is new to the monster class thing, apparently talented, that I want to get past the arguments & not scare him away, I'm liable to concede the Erinyes to him. I do urge him to consider that we don't want to overlap too much with the succubus and pleasure devil, and that the Erinyes was originally based on the furies.

Find me a Dragon with True naming and we'll talk dude. Til then, sorry, no dice.

While not core D&D (there's very little truenaming material to work with in core D&D anyways), Earthsea is a setting based around true naming. It's the setting's magic system, and involves using Old Speech (wherein Truenaming is actually the language of dragons) to wreak changes on the world around you.

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-24, 11:50 AM

Now all that said, Gorgon did give permission to do the monster to Lord_Gareth. Given that Gareth is new to the monster class thing, apparently talented, that I want to get past the arguments & not scare him away, I'm liable to concede the Erinyes to him. I do urge him to consider that we don't want to overlap too much with the succubus and pleasure devil, and that the Erinyes was originally based on the furies.

Thank'ee, Hyudra. The flavor won't be entirely lost, but I really do prefer the old 2e fluff. Besides, aren't Erinyes and Pleasure Devils similar enough that they might end up with a Ghoul/Ghast effect (being practically the same monster flavor-wise anyway)?

Hyudra

2011-03-24, 11:51 AM

Thank'ee, Hyudra. The flavor won't be entirely lost, but I really do prefer the old 2e fluff. Besides, aren't Erinyes and Pleasure Devils similar enough that they might end up with a Ghoul/Ghast effect (being practically the same monster flavor-wise anyway)?

No. I'm of the opinion that they're very much distinct, beyond being devilish women with wings.

NineThePuma

2011-03-24, 11:51 AM

I wasn't aware he'd given permission to do it. I really, really wish Gorgondantess had run it by me. This is the second time he has gone and given someone permission to do a monster I've told him I was interested in doing without checking with me. This frustrates me.

... Then CALL THEM. Put them on the called monster list.

Seriously <__<

While not core D&D (there's very little truenaming material to work with in core D&D anyways), Earthsea is a setting based around true naming. It's the setting's magic system, and involves using Old Speech (wherein Truenaming is actually the language of dragons) to wreak changes on the world around you.
Which is unrelated to WotC, TSR, etc. So, yeah.

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-24, 11:53 AM

No. I'm of the opinion that they're very much distinct, beyond being devilish women with wings.

*Sigh* Of the many fluff changes in 3.5, their treatment of Outsiders (of all stripes) was the only one I truly despised T_T

Bloody Initiate

2011-03-24, 11:58 AM

You have a habit, Initiate, of deciding the way things work and then talking as though it were a given.

I have a habit of having opinions, that's all.

As for how I talk, that's the product of a person who has been trained to talk. I was taught to speak as if I am correct, because a reasonable audience has already assumed everyone is only speaking their mind. I don't have to type "IMHO" all the time because you should be capable of assuming it's my opinion without me cluttering my posts with constant admissions of fallibility. I am fallible, everyone is, so now we can all stop reminding ourselves.

I also have a habit of leaving the microwave door open.

Like I said, people can give input. I'm giving input. You're responding to it with your own input. Things are as they should be.

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-24, 12:00 PM

I also have a habit of leaving the microwave door open.

You FIEND!

Hyudra

2011-03-24, 12:03 PM

... Then CALL THEM. Put them on the called monster list.

Seriously <__<

If people stuck to the thread methodology, it wouldn't be a problem. You call something if you're already working on it so new visitors can check in, and if you're going to start a monster, you state such in the thread and see if anyone else is wanting to do the same monster/could do it better.

In any event, I do have to talk to Gorgon about elaborating on such on the front page.

Which is unrelated to WotC, TSR, etc. So, yeah.

You said to find a Dragon with true naming. I found a setting defined by true naming dragons. I don't know what you were expecting? I do believe that the ToM stuff, as well as ToB stuff, Incarnum and the like were established as material for people to build settings and setting details with. If someone wants to extend the Half-Dragon to involve Truenaming, then, well, that's why Truenaming was outlined in the first place. All such material was largely limited to one sourcebook and generally intended to be expanded on at the DM/players' behests.

*Sigh* Of the many fluff changes in 3.5, their treatment of Outsiders (of all stripes) was the only one I truly despised T_T

Well, consider that they may stem from the same roots, with the Erinyes as the more martial, bounty-hunter application of the Devil Woman, and the Pleasure Devil as the temptress, seductress and schemer. The devil empresses and consorts are likely based off of pleasure devils more than Erinyes (this is reinforced by the lack of the visual details that outline the 3.5 Erinyes).

Bloody Initiate

2011-03-24, 12:03 PM

You FIEND!

My GF gives me hell for it :smallredface:

To be fair, she has a habit of ignoring practicality at all costs.

NineThePuma

2011-03-24, 12:05 PM

I have a habit of having opinions. They tend to be Chaotic Neutral. Oops.

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-24, 12:05 PM

Well, consider that they may stem from the same roots, with the Erinyes as the more martial, bounty-hunter application of the Devil Woman, and the Pleasure Devil as the temptress, seductress and schemer. The devil empresses and consorts are likely based off of pleasure devils more than Erinyes (this is reinforced by the lack of the visual details that outline the Erinyes).

I was acting on the information that the Pleasure Devil was literally an Erinyes with a promotion (Fiendish Codex II, IIRC).

Hyudra

2011-03-24, 12:07 PM

I was acting on the information that the Pleasure Devil was literally an Erinyes with a promotion (Fiendish Codex II, IIRC).

Right, but that promotion (as with many such 'evolving' devils) includes a bestowing of the wiles and beauty that would be used for that schemer, seductress role you're promoting, no?

+9 Cha over 3 CR, gaining massive ranks in Bluff, diplomacy, disguise, hide, etc.? (Half of which aren't even class skills for the Erinyes)

NineThePuma

2011-03-24, 12:11 PM

Hrm...

*stares at the Tarrasque* It feels like it's missing something, but I can't decide what.

Mystic Muse

2011-03-24, 12:17 PM

Due to the argument about called monsters I thought I'd leave this here in case somebody missed it.

The Silver Dragon is MINE! My own...My precious...

Bloody Initiate

2011-03-24, 12:21 PM

Well here's my thoughts on the Erinyes -> Pleasure Devil:

I have already stated that I see Erinyes as Bounty Hunters/Rangers/Hunter types. I also already said that I see Hyudra's view of them as very similar to my own (In fact Hyudra's pretty much encompassed and elaborated on my view of them). To me they are distinctly martial, but they are also capable of more than just fighting. They're CR 8, which means they are definitively more impressive and elite than any common grunt.

I expect they get sent to capture fugitives from Hell (Welshed on a Faustian bargain? I'll send an Erinyes your way!) via physical force if necessary, but one mustn't assume that all other devils are so bad at enforcing their own bargains, so when the Erinyes isn't playing Bounty Hunter she does the work every other devil does and tries to get people into hell.

It is the second function, the "work every other devil does," that will occasionally get a talented Erinyes noticed and nominated for promotion. The Erinyes, as she is, is not the best temptress. She has no ability to convincingly and consistently disguise her nature, so the bargains she makes are actual bargains where a clear exchange of services or goods takes place. Those talented Erinyes get promoted to Pleasure Devils, who tempt mortals to sin with their very appearance. A person talking to a Pleasure Devil does not know he's talking to a devil, and so his guard isn't up, so he will make decisions differently.

Also, Pleasure Devils are primarily female with few exceptions while lower Erinyes tend to be more of mixed gender. This is because mortal males (read: Human men) are much more driven by their sexuality than mortal females, so unless the target isn't into ladies, it will be a female tempting him.

Another reason for the high percentage of females is that mortals find females less threatening and therefore more trustworthy.
---

There's my flavor pitch for you. If it's useful to you, great. If it's not, oh well. Just trying to be helpful.

TheGeckoKing

2011-03-24, 12:25 PM

NineThePuma

2011-03-24, 12:26 PM

Also, someone should write up a suggestion on how to deal with Baatezu promotion, even if it's "If you have as many levels as all the levels in the Devil form you want, swap them out 1 for 1. Any leftovers should be swapped for Fighter or something."

That would be cool. :smallcool:

... I'd say individual DMs can work that out themselves.

TheGeckoKing

2011-03-24, 12:27 PM

... I'd say individual DMs can work that out themselves.

Faint guidelines would be useful, at the very least. Mind you, if it's silly, it's silly. Just throwing it out there.

Frog Dragon

2011-03-24, 12:33 PM

This is actually something I intended to bring up. As described in the Fiendish Codex 2, devils turn into better devils when they are promoted. There should probably be the option of seeking out a chance to do the ceremony and exchange levels 1 for one into another devil.

Crafty Cultist

2011-03-24, 12:38 PM

An ability that works like the fallen paladin blackguard's level trade in might be a good ability to give all devils. Something like "if you take a level in a devil class you can trade in any levels you have in a devil class with a lower level cap."

Gorgondantess

2011-03-24, 12:43 PM

... Then CALL THEM. Put them on the called monster list.

Seriously <__<

This. Do you really expect me to remember every single passing mention of wanting to do a monster you've ever said? You didn't say to me one day "I'm going to do the Erinyes", and that was it. You said "I'm thinking of revising the doppelganger, the this, the that, the whatwho, the whowhat, and the Erinyes." And that was weeks ago. I figured, beyond that, that it was just a passing fancy and you weren't serious about any of those anymore (that I could remember), because after the Frostwind Virago you implied that you weren't interested in any monsters at the moment.
So, y'know what, I'm getting a little frustrated with you. If you were that serious about doing the Erinyes, you should've put it on the called list. If you're that serious about doing any of these monsters, put it on the called list.

Utterdark

2011-03-24, 12:44 PM

Or someone might, at some point, decide to make a Devil class, which takes you through the hierarchy of devils, as you advance.

NineThePuma

2011-03-24, 12:44 PM

Eh... That'd be boring.

... Though that DOES make the Lemur or whatever it was more useful...

Bloody Initiate

2011-03-24, 12:46 PM

Frog Dragon

2011-03-24, 12:56 PM

If I start play as an Erinyes I'm not trying to become a Pit Fiend. I think the idea of trading your levels for something you could have taken from the start is just a little odd, because if the classes are built properly they'll be roughly the same power level at equivalent levels (Erinyes 8 should be as strong as Pit Fiend 8).

Furthermore, you're only a devil in race. In reality you're a member of an adventuring party that may or may not be devils. You've given up on getting promoted as a devil, because you're on your own team now.

You can always retrain levels I suppose, but really, if you want to play a 20 level outsider then play one.

As for Erinyes --> Pleasure Devil, that's a PrC for the Erinyes.
That is true for most campaigns, but it'd only really take one paragraph to explain the level-exchange thing, and that's it. Some people might find it useful, and it's so little effort, why not?

How about this?
Any full-blooded devil may, after taking its last level in whatever devil monster class it is advancing, seek out a ceremony of promotion (and should earn said promotion from its devil overlords in campaign) and trade all its levels in the devil monster class for levels in another devil monster class, assuming the class it is trading levels into has a higher level cap than the original devil class.

All class features, racial stat bonuses, and the racial body feature should be recalculated, but initial mental ability scores and bonuses to said stats gained from level gain should stay the same. Physical stats may be switched around. The devil may retrain feats, and up to half its skill points (after accounting for the possible loss in intelligence score).

There. This is what I wrote in 5 minutes or so. The exact details might use polishing, but yeah. Very little effort.

Crafty Cultist

2011-03-24, 01:02 PM

Any full-blooded devil may, after taking its last level in whatever devil monster class it is advancing, seek out a ceremony of promotion (and should earn said promotion from its devil overlords in campaign) and trade all its levels in the devil monster class for levels in another devil monster class, assuming the class it is trading levels into has a higher level cap than the original devil class.

All class features, racial stat bonuses, and the racial body feature should be recalculated, but initial mental ability scores and bonuses to said stats gained from level gain should stay the same. Physical stats may be switched around. The devil may retrain feats, and up to half its skill points (after accounting for the possible loss in intelligence score.

I think that sound reasonable. I agree with pleasure devil being an Erinyes prestige class though, since they're kind of outside the normal diabolic hierachy

Hyudra

2011-03-24, 01:03 PM

Hyudra, i'm a bit confused. You don't want it to really focus on Succubus-y (Yes, I said it. Blame my ignorance.) stuff, so what DO you want to focus on? If you would kindly outline the fluff your going for, that would let me make an informed opinion, at the very least.

Ok, so, establishing the lore:

Keep in mind that Hell is essentially a finite number of devils waging an endless war against an infinite number of demons. They're disciplined, structured and organized so that every action assists the war in some fashion. Doing otherwise would mean the demons would swamp them and they would lose.

Erinyes, specifically, are the elite troops of the Devils. They become captains, supervisors, scholars, strike forces, bodyguards to even the top ranked devils, and so on. Since Erinyes are not conventional devils (they don't become mindless spawn of Hell as Lemures and get steadily promoted from there... they're converted from fallen angels) presumably the full training and knowledge they had in their previous form, with their personalities twisted. Citations:

" Once it was signed, Asmodeus, Mephistopheles, and Dispater decamped to Baator, which was then a bleak and featureless plain. With them went a host of other dark angels that called themselves erinyes." - FCII, p.5

"Torture stations are typically supervised by erinyes, who ﬁ le regular reports to their lords listing the top soul harvesters." FCII, p. 9

"Devils are never promoted to erinyes status, but they can
be promoted from it to higher ranks." - FCII, p.10

"As the erinyes philosopher Zagrish once wrote..." - FCII, p.11

" At the top of the list are the erinyes, a cadre of hideously beautiful, winged, elite devils that flutter slightly apart from their infernal brethren." - FCII, p.18

Erinyes do occasionally get tasked with tempting mortals and are capable of making bargains, but it's implied in the Pleasure Devil entry that only those promoted to the ranks of Pleasure Devil really have the ability to roam the surface and consort with potential victims. More likely, then, that Erinyes are tasked with being summoned to the Prime Material and consorting with diabolists from the summoning circles, entrapping that prey that ventures into Hell (seeking research, items, buying/selling magic items that are too high class to be found on the prime material) or being involved with/leading cults who are very much aware that they are dealing with an Erinyes. The fact that they don't get alternate form or disguise reinforces the notion that this 'trick and subvert mortals' is not a primary task of the creatures. They are, however, high enough in station to be sent to the surface to do such in a pinch.

All in all, that means that an Erinyes would have a role dedicated to hitting hard, hitting fast, catching enemies off guard and leading others. The rope exists for that blitz style, and the flaming bow (as compared to the ordinary longsword) indicate that she favors range over close combat. So all in all, it would be well suited with:
Some vicious/aggressive leadership abilities either comparable to the White Raven maneuvers or the Marshal class.
Lemure (with better devils available at higher HD) summoning to allow for synergy with the leadership.
Aggressive attack options that promote crippling prey or making them more vulnerable, again synergizing with the summons/leadership.
Mobility options potentially encompassing one's allies.
An Ensnare Mortal ability that allows the use of the trademark rope - allowing for enemies to either be entangled or flung about (which synergizes with summons, leadership, as you separate enemies and pick out the vulnerable).
One ability that allows for a Faustian bargain.

Bloody Initiate

2011-03-24, 01:06 PM

This is what I wrote in 5 minutes or so.

While I would never use that and can't even think of why anyone would, it DOES give me an idea for a campaign where you start low tier and trade up... except redoing your character over and over again isn't fun. Staring at loading screens isn't fun. Staring at the respawn screen isn't fun. At least none of that is fun for me.

If you some day run a devil campaign where people get promoted that way, may I suggest something different?

Instead of redoing your levels (Which sounds like a incredible drag for everyone who enjoys playing instead of just making characters) you have a "base" character, a sort of template. It consists of your ability scores and your equipment.

You start as a lowly devil, and when it's time for you to level you instead move up to the next highest CR'd devil. You sub in your ability scores for their crappy 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10. You retain your equipment and you get to redistribute skill points and feats.

Whenever possible, the DM should promote you to a devil that suits your play-style thus far (assuming one of appropriate CR exists). Also if there are no devils of the required CRs then players can grab class levels of their choice with the DM's express approval.

It still doesn't sound like anything I would want to play, but it sounds a lot more functional than redoing all your levels over and over again. My group's sessions already end when it's time to level because leveling characters takes time, so I wouldn't want to make that process worse without an awesome tradeoff like gestalt.

Of course that's all just my opinion, it's just that my experience steers me away from bookkeeping and toward fun.

NineThePuma

2011-03-24, 01:16 PM

-snip-

Or you can just use This Class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77010) built for this express purpose.

Bloody Initiate

2011-03-24, 01:20 PM

Or you can just use This Class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77010) built for this express purpose.

Eh. "Extremely malleable template thing" is... not my thing.

I already said that though, I think I'll just invite myself out of the "promoting devils" discussion because as someone who doesn't think the concept is worth exploring, there's no way I have anything valuable to add to it :smallbiggrin:

I have a habit of only figuring these things out after I've posted 2-5 times about them.

NineThePuma

2011-03-24, 01:22 PM

It's not my thing either, I was just saying.

Mystic Muse

2011-03-24, 01:24 PM

Guys, you should probably take this discussion to PMs, IMs, or some other form of messaging each other..

Bloody Initiate

2011-03-24, 01:24 PM

It's not my thing either, I was just saying.

I appreciate it. This forum has a lot of great homebrew, but without people pointing me to it I'd miss most of it.

While I believe quantity begets quality by virtue of many variations, quantity also tends to bury quality just as often...

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-24, 01:32 PM

The reason that I dislike making the Erinyes more martially-focused is because devils are already full up on combat brutes - more so, in fact, than demons are! This confuses the hell out of me, and there's definite room in Baator's hierarchy for someone more rogue-like, with Pleasure Devils being those Erinyes that choose to specialize in temptation. As far as the transformation goes, I kinda viewed the skill ranks as something that happened before the promotion; that is, they became a Pleasure Devil BECAUSE they had the social skills, they didn't get the social skills because they're Pleasure Devils.

Expect my writeup in 2 - 8 days ^_^

Hyudra

2011-03-24, 01:38 PM

Thing is, though, Erinyes aren't combat brutes. They're elite warriors. So where the Bearded Devil or the Horned Devil are 'brutes' that you send into the enemy ranks to tear the enemy apart, the Erinyes are full BAB attackers who can parry your sword thrust and then eviscerate you with practiced skill. She's the competent and loyal individual who sees that stuff gets done right.

In any event, I suppose that if I haven't convinced you of the Erinyes' flavor in 3.5 yet, we'll have to discuss such on a point-by-point level when you've finished & post the monster.

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-24, 01:44 PM

Mystic Muse

2011-03-24, 01:47 PM

Silver Dragon removed for additional editing.

Zemro

2011-03-24, 01:53 PM

Man, we accumulated quite a few posts since I last looked at this thread...

I'll respond to Gorgon's Justice Archon critique later this evening, just mentioning it so you don't think I've overlooked it.

Quick comment on the Silver Dragon while I'm here, use {table=head] for the opening tag on your table. That's how you get that brown bar on the top and it'll separate the headers from the table text.

Stycotl

2011-03-24, 02:04 PM

i am actually interested in seeing both hyudra's and lordgareth's erinyes versions. i think that this actually makes the project better, not worse.

no one coming to the game is going to have the exact same idea as to what one monster or one class should be like. so why try to cram them all together?

it isn't going to hurt anyone if there are two erinyes progressions linked on the front page. so long as they are both balanced and both peer-reviewed, they both work. if someone wants to play a more martially-minded erinyes because that is the vision that they have of the creature, then they can use hyudra's variant; if they want the more subtle one, they use gareth's.

i don't see why that is so complicated or offensive to some people. it won't cause any more confusion or work required than having multiple kinds of dragons or golems, so what's the big deal?

Frog Dragon

2011-03-24, 02:07 PM

Hyudra

2011-03-24, 02:10 PM

Frog dragon has the right of it.

Plus the interaction between Gorgon & NinethePuma kind of indicate that it's a bad idea to have two people working on different, (competing) versions of a project at the same time.

NineThePuma

2011-03-24, 02:11 PM

But there's no actual system behind the project. There's quality control, and that's it. x3

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-24, 02:13 PM

Stycotl

2011-03-24, 03:01 PM

Mostly, we already have a metric ton of stuff on our plates in this project, so we'd rather do things only once rather than overlapping when we could be covering new ground. At least, I think that's the problem.

then don't do any more remakes period. if someone wants to remake a monster that they think hasn't had its dues yet, whether for fluff reasons or balance reasons, there is absolutely no reason why they should be discouraged from doing so.

laziness is not a valid excuse on your part.

Frog dragon has the right of it.

Plus the interaction between Gorgon & NinethePuma kind of indicate that it's a bad idea to have two people working on different, (competing) versions of a project at the same time.

for one, who says that it has to be at the same time? most of the revisions and multiple variants have happened at different times.

further, the issue between nine and gorgon seems to be one of ego, not of the inherent instability of having two iterations going simultaneously. if people could learn to cooperate instead of whine and pout, this project would move at a better pace and not dedicate the ridiculously absurd amount of pages to soap opera antics that it has already.

one of the best ways to accomplish that is to relax a bit on the requirements. lighten up a bit, allow people to run with their own fluff ideas, or to remake something that you don't see the point of remaking. do that, and i can guarantee that you'll get more participation and cooperation.

my two cents.

Cogidubnus

2011-03-24, 03:07 PM

further, the issue between nine and gorgon seems to be one of ego, not of the inherent instability of having two iterations going simultaneously. if people could learn to cooperate instead of whine and pout, this project would move at a better pace and not dedicate the ridiculously absurd amount of pages to soap opera antics that it has already.

one of the best ways to accomplish that is to relax a bit on the requirements. lighten up a bit, allow people to run with their own fluff ideas, or to remake something that you don't see the point of remaking. do that, and i can guarantee that you'll get more participation and cooperation.

my two cents.

Granted, the arguing between Nine and Gorgon is not inherently due to the nature of two people working on the same thing. But the reason for the restrictions on what you can post is simple - there are only a few experienced homebrewers and a handful more amateur ones critiquing regularly, which means that it people are building anything right, left and centre, there's too much for them to do and nothing ever gets approved. There's been 6 threads of learning how to run this so far xD

Frog Dragon

2011-03-24, 03:12 PM

There is the point that if two people are set on something, and inspired to do something, there might be cause for both of them to do it, because they'll get their own versions done much quicker than trying to crank something else out.

As for the remakes, there's a big issue of the quality of whatever is being remade.

Mostly, we remake Oslecamo-era critters, because we like our quality. They are often unbalanced and uninteresting, often striving to pretty much one-up the wizard with thin excuses about needing to match overpowered PRC:s. They don't belong in a game. They might as well not be done yet. That's why we remake them.

As for the laziness, that crossed awfully close to a personal insult. :smallannoyed:

We don't have infinite time to devote to this project. I'm a middle-schooler, for one, and everyone else here has stuff to do as well. Sure, we could do stuff twice, but it's inefficient. If you have a vision for something other than a critter that has already been done to our current standards, by gods do pursue your second idea rather than revisiting a critter that is already deemed good and interesting enough for varied play.

We want to get stuff done. And having a Psurlon and a Basilisks is better than two basilisks, because a psurlon and a basilisk fill two different concepts and ideas, while two basilisks are going to fill the same need and concept. That is why we discourage repeats of properly done monsters.

NineThePuma

2011-03-24, 03:14 PM

There's been 6 threads of learning how to run this so far xD

Four. Two of them were under someone who had a questionable sense of balance. There have actually been THREE offshoots of this project, all of which were started because that first guy was overly controlling. If I could FIND those projects, I'd be very happy, actually.

Cogidubnus

2011-03-24, 03:23 PM

Four. Two of them were under someone who had a questionable sense of balance. There have actually been THREE offshoots of this project, all of which were started because that first guy was overly controlling. If I could FIND those projects, I'd be very happy, actually.

I view the Oslecamo period as a steep learning curve :smallbiggrin:

NineThePuma

2011-03-24, 03:25 PM

Cogidubnus

2011-03-24, 03:28 PM

"This is how you DON'T run a thread"? :smallannoyed:

Yeah, I guess that works. :smallamused:

In any case, I'm considering integrating the Draconic Creature template into my Half-Dragon class. Any objections?

Maybe make it a separate class to make it easier for people to find it in the list on the front page?

NineThePuma

2011-03-24, 03:38 PM

Eh. The problem is I can -feel- people complaining that it isn't strong enough the moment it's made.

"But two claw attacks and +2 con aren't worth a level!"

Zemro

2011-03-24, 03:44 PM

Oh, hey, look, got myself some free time.

Loses!

Damn, could've sworn I just made that correction to the class. Must've fixed it on one of my behind the scenes classes....

Anyways, I think we should make a standardized ability along the lines of the other outsiders (demons, devils, yugoloth, eladrin, etc.) for archons. Wanna do it?

I'd love to, especially considering I've slotted dibs down on the rest of the Archons. There'll be a couple differences here and there (some archons have natural weapons) but over all I think it can remain rather consistent.

The Archon monsters also have some ability similarities, though I'm planning on making slight variations between Archons for those. That way it'll keep things a bit more interesting.

So a sociopath who murdered a bunch of babies and got barely any punishment, for whatever reason, but thought that the punishment was overboard (probably because he's insane) would be considered to have been punished thoroughly?

I could totally see a player doing something like lying all the time so they have dozens of free recordings of various events for the Justice Archon party member to read off of.:smalltongue:

It's a difficult ability to word, I want to provide a general sort of outline for what the ability can accomplish and then leave the specifics of arbitration up to the DM (since there's no way I can cover each specific scenario)

I'll revisit the wording some more though.

Justice Strike: I donno, boss. That's a little wonky. Probably abusable, too. At the least I'd cap it with a certain uses/day.

I'm going to need examples here, because I do not see it being a problem at all. The ability doesn't copy any optional effects, you're not getting their power attack, you're not getting their precision damage, you're not getting an activated abilities of an initiator's strike. You're not even getting any of your own benefits on there, there's no pros to power attack and such as you're completely replace your own damage.

Essentially you're just getting their base weapon damage plus their strength modifier. I flipped through the monster manual myself, and I found very few examples were a monster;s regular damage was out of line with that of a front liner of a level with the same CR would inflict with a two-hander and his various abilities. Maybe if you're fighting giants and dragons all the time it might be a little much, but what about in a campaign where you only fight kobolds or creatures with pitiful to no melee capabilities?

If you still think it's unreasonable, hit me up with some monster entries that you think would be unreasonable. But also consider if you'd be fighting such monsters all the time. Some times the ability is good to use, other times it's not. Knowing when to use the ability to make the most of it is a decision the player has to make. This ability could even possibly get worse if you've a party member who likes to toss around strength damage (which I think is just as situational a consideration as it running into a giant brusier).

Rage-Like ability? You do realize that barbarians are nonlawful only?

While true, there are no alignment restriction on the class, it'd be weird but I think you could roll an interesting Justice Archon as Chaotic. Maybe she goes along using her abilities to disrupt order and find and aid those who would do likewise.

Regardless, it was also intended to cover getting hit by the rage-spell, and other abilities that simulate effects but don't rely on being a barbarian.

Way to pick on psions and diamond mind swordsages/warblades.

You're going to have to elaborate a bit more on the critique here. Those aren't the only classes that are effected by a longshot (though the latter was, perhaps unintentional. Don't know if I'm happy with that or not though). And the casting classes are definitely going to get hit harder if they also happen to be the Justice Archon's quarry.

Can of worms right there. How about an undead doing constitution damage? Or, better yet, how about an enemy mage casting dominate monster? Or will to disbelief an image spell? Grease? A resilient sphere- does suddenly a resilient sphere slam down over the enemy mage?

Point, I'll look into fine tuning the wording there. I've got an idea that should clear things up actually.

Wings: Light armor doesn't reduce fly speed.

And? I don't specifically spell out light armour anywhere in the ability. The intent behind the 20HD advancement is to cover exotic armours and such, so you could fly around in mountain plate or something.

Teleport: I'm leery about this. It solves a lot of quests that normally wouldn't be solvable until 3 levels later. Need to stock up while in a dungeon? Send out the justice archon! Need to warn the kingdom about the invasion- but in a tight spot? Send out the justice archon!
All in all, what I'd do is limit it to just teleporting to the quarry until 9 HD.

Will also be looking into this.

Other than that, though, I'm a little worried about the lack of active abilities. What will you be doing other than full attacking, even with justice strike? Well, nothing. Just give it one or two nifty little things to add some variety to battles. It could also use a slight power boost, so there you go.
Other than that, though, looking good.

Well there is deciding how to toggle your auras and a bit of controlling actions outside of your turn, but I see the point. I'll see what I can do to provide a better array of active abilities.

Cogidubnus

2011-03-24, 03:45 PM

Eh. The problem is I can -feel- people complaining that it isn't strong enough the moment it's made.

"But two claw attacks and +2 con aren't worth a level!"

Give it some new, thematic abilities then to bring it up to par? Something more active than the current benefits, too.

Also, any update on the Brass Golem? Unless you really hate English spelling (in which case you're going to be telling me to change a lot of things over time), I don't know what else I can do to it.

Hyudra

2011-03-24, 03:48 PM

Announcement

Just a heads up, guys. I talked the matter over with Gorgon and we're renaming the 'Called' list to the 'Interest' list, to clear up misunderstandings and to clear away some preconceived notions.

If there's a monster that has caught your eye and you're interested in doing it, or if you've already started doing it, state so in the thread and I'll strive to include it on the front page. If there's a monster on the interest list that you want to do, talk it over with the poster in question and come to a consensus.

As the implications are different, you should feel less shy about expressing interest in doing any given monster (rather than being self-conscious about laying claim to too many monsters at one time), or about discussing your own interest in doing the monster that someone else has claimed. Try to allow some leeway between announcing interest and starting the monster to give others a chance to respond.

NineThePuma

2011-03-24, 03:52 PM

Give it some new, thematic abilities then to bring it up to par? Something more active than the current benefits, too.

Draconic is an LA+1/CR+1 template. It offers claws, a bonus on intimidate/spot, some natural armor, a save boost, and vision modes. x3

It's really not so sexy, and it's supposed to build into the Half-Dragon template.

Edit: out of curiosity, CR is calculated for NPCs as equal to their ECL, right?

Bloody Initiate

2011-03-24, 03:55 PM

Eh. The problem is I can -feel- people complaining that it isn't strong enough the moment it's made.

"But two claw attacks and +2 con aren't worth a level!"

A lot of the +1 LA templates and races don't feel right being remade into racial class because the restrictions of the project often take away all the power that was originally in the template or race.

The Lolth-Touched Template, for example, is ALL ABOUT +6 Str and +6 Con. It's not worth it without the ridiculous ability score adjustments. Immunity to Fear + skill bonuses are just icing on the cake.

Now you could probably think of a really cool Lolth-related ability that was worth taking a level for, and you could drop those +6es, but it would be a very different thing and people would still have a lot of use for the original version.

You can make a 2-20 level class that captures almost everything in the monster manual version of creature and adds a bunch of new and interesting abilities, but once you get down to just ONE level?!? It's hard to justify a dip without making the abilities ridiculous. You end up with two categories: Original +1s that were worth it, and those that weren't. The ones that were worth it will be difficult to improve because +1 LA isn't THAT hard to swallow, and the ones that weren't worth it will be difficult to make because all most really need is a Hit Die, and that doesn't require or allow for much creativity.

A lot of that stuff can just be house ruled into better shape than any total overhaul could do, so it's a weird in-between territory when going that low. Something that's CR 2 often has enough abilities to get 2 levels out, but a template that just says +1 CR usually doesn't have the space to make a racial class worth it.

NineThePuma

2011-03-24, 03:58 PM

Exactly.

On that note, I demand an Awakened Badger class.

Gorgondantess

2011-03-24, 04:03 PM

I'd love to, especially considering I've slotted dibs down on the rest of the Archons. There'll be a couple differences here and there (some archons have natural weapons) but over all I think it can remain rather consistent.
Don't see what having natural weapons would do with it. It's mainly just resistances, poison/petrification resistance, subtypes/alignment damage and then stuff like telepathy.

It's a difficult ability to word, I want to provide a general sort of outline for what the ability can accomplish and then leave the specifics of arbitration up to the DM (since there's no way I can cover each specific scenario)

I'll revisit the wording some more though.
Good. I don't foresee it being too much of an issue, but a little bit of perfectionism never hurts.

I'm going to need examples here, because I do not see it being a problem at all. The ability doesn't copy any optional effects, you're not getting their power attack, you're not getting their precision damage, you're not getting an activated abilities of an initiator's strike. You're not even getting any of your own benefits on there, there's no pros to power attack and such as you're completely replace your own damage.

Essentially you're just getting their base weapon damage plus their strength modifier. I flipped through the monster manual myself, and I found very few examples were a monster;s regular damage was out of line with that of a front liner of a level with the same CR would inflict with a two-hander and his various abilities. Maybe if you're fighting giants and dragons all the time it might be a little much, but what about in a campaign where you only fight kobolds or creatures with pitiful to no melee capabilities?

If you still think it's unreasonable, hit me up with some monster entries that you think would be unreasonable. But also consider if you'd be fighting such monsters all the time. Some times the ability is good to use, other times it's not. Knowing when to use the ability to make the most of it is a decision the player has to make. This ability could even possibly get worse if you've a party member who likes to toss around strength damage (which I think is just as situational a consideration as it running into a giant brusier).

Not monsters, but the archon itself. I could see them using a lot of things to sacrifice damage for other effects and just primarily using justice strike, or maybe optimizing # of attacks to get something that has few but very powerful attacks hitting itself over and over every round. Go ahead and do something like 1/day/HD, but letting them do it over and over is just a little iffy to me.

While true, there are no alignment restriction on the class, it'd be weird but I think you could roll an interesting Justice Archon as Chaotic. Maybe she goes along using her abilities to disrupt order and find and aid those who would do likewise.
Still, it's just a little weird. It's like mentioning on the monk some effect it gets from being a soulknife. The two just don't mesh.

Regardless, it was also intended to cover getting hit by the rage-spell, and other abilities that simulate effects but don't rely on being a barbarian.
Okay, that works.

You're going to have to elaborate a bit more on the critique here. Those aren't the only classes that are effected by a longshot (though the latter was, perhaps unintentional. Don't know if I'm happy with that or not though). And the casting classes are definitely going to get hit harder if they also happen to be the Justice Archon's quarry.
Well, those are the 2 classes that'll be using concentration a LOT (any decent psion expends & regains psionic focus pretty much every round:smalltongue:).

And? I don't specifically spell out light armour anywhere in the ability. The intent behind the 20HD advancement is to cover exotic armours and such, so you could fly around in mountain plate or something.

Ah, good point. I was thinking of a simple light-medium-heavy paradigm.

Well there is deciding how to toggle your auras and a bit of controlling actions outside of your turn, but I see the point. I'll see what I can do to provide a better array of active abilities.
Thank you. Do tell when you get around to it.

Also, any update on the Brass Golem? Unless you really hate English spelling (in which case you're going to be telling me to change a lot of things over time), I don't know what else I can do to it.
I'll review the Brass Golem sometime today.

Cogidubnus

2011-03-24, 04:17 PM

Since we're naming our called monsters, I've had Shadesteel Golem finished and Hangman Golem half-written up since Brass Golem was still being reviewed.

Hyudra

2011-03-24, 04:19 PM

Since we're naming our called monsters, I've had Shadesteel Golem finished and Hangman Golem half-written up since Brass Golem was still being reviewed.

Noted, added.

Zemro

2011-03-24, 04:24 PM

Don't see what having natural weapons would do with it. It's mainly just resistances, poison/petrification resistance, subtypes/alignment damage and then stuff like telepathy.

Just an offside note, the body ability is where I've noted natural weapons so those entries won't be completely identical. It's unlikely to be a problem, just something I felt to note with an offhand comment.

Not monsters, but the archon itself. I could see them using a lot of things to sacrifice damage for other effects and just primarily using justice strike, or maybe optimizing # of attacks to get something that has few but very powerful attacks hitting itself over and over every round. Go ahead and do something like 1/day/HD, but letting them do it over and over is just a little iffy to me.

Aha, well, you can optimize for number of attacks even without Justice Strike. With a lack of buffs to damage, unless your fighting lots of beefy monsters often you're probably going to inflict better damage more often then not just by hefting yourself a two-hander and going to town with your own items and party buffs.

I can see the logic behind limiting, somewhat, but I honestly feel that that variability in the ability's potency makes setting a hard limit weird. Some days or campaigns it'll work great, but I think just as often you may go with only seeing a couple of uses here and there.

Benly

2011-03-24, 04:30 PM

Since it's the Interest List now, I'd like to note interest in the Firre Eladrin from Book of Exalted Deeds (I have it partly done) and the Energon from Manual Of The Planes and Planar Handbook (basically still just in the ideas phase).

Hyudra

2011-03-24, 05:05 PM

Added, Benly.

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-24, 05:10 PM

I am, of course, interested in Erinyes and Hyudra's Forgiveness.

Hyudra

2011-03-24, 05:24 PM

You don't need forgiveness as I'm not mad at you. I was annoyed that due process wasn't followed when I was partway through writing up the class, but that's not your fault.

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-24, 05:31 PM

You don't need forgiveness as I'm not mad at you. I was annoyed that due process wasn't followed when I was partway through writing up the class, but that's not your fault.

....Pre-emptive forgiveness for when you read the class?

NineThePuma

2011-03-24, 05:32 PM

....Pre-emptive forgiveness for when you read the class?

It gonna be that bad?

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-24, 05:35 PM

It gonna be that bad?

No, but how much does "secret agent" resemble "elite military leader"? The former is my concept. The latter is Hyudra's.

Hyudra

2011-03-24, 05:36 PM

I assume he means that it's going to be drastically different from the established 3.5 flavor of the Erinyes, which he knows I don't agree with.

Edit: Swordsaged. But yeah.

Bloody Initiate

2011-03-24, 08:12 PM

Exactly.

On that note, I demand an Awakened Badger class.

I was bored and knew it wouldn't take that long, so I decided to answer this demand (I know you weren't serious, neither is the class below. I just thought it would be fun for the same reasons you thought it would be fun to demand a badger :smallsmile:).

Awakened Badger
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w230/BloodyInitiate/badger-1.jpg

Hit Die: d10

Lvl|
BAB|
Fort|
Ref|
Will|
Feature

1st|[center]+1|
+2|
+2|
+0|
Badger Body, Rage, Hard facts of Nature

Class Skills (2 + Int mod per level, 4x at 1st level): A badger's class skills are Craft, Climb, Escape Artist, Listen, Knowledge (nature), Profession, Spot, Survival.

Proficiencies: A badger is proficient with its natural weapons only.

Badger Body: The badger loses its racial type, bonuses, and traits and gains the magical BEAST type. He has low-light vision, Darkvision out to 60 feet, and the scent extraordinary ability. Badgers are small creatures with a base land speed of 30 feet and a burrow speed of 10 feet + 5 feet per 2 HD it possesses.

Badgers have 2 primary claw attacks and a secondary bite attack. The claws do 1d3 + Str damage on a small badger, while a bite does 1d4 + Str damage on a small badger. If unable to make a full attack, the badger bites for 1d4 + 1½ Str damage.

A badger has a natural armor bonus equal to its constitution modifier.

Badgers gain +1 Dexterity and +1 Constitution at 1st level.

Rage (Ex): Summarized by the Barbarian class feature (PHB, 25), with the exception that badgers can Rage an unlimited amount of times per day. Badgers taught barbarians everything they know.

The bonuses from rage to strength, constitution, and will saves increase by 2 for every 4 HD the badger possesses.

At 20 HD the badger gains the benefits of Rage constantly, with no penalty to AC or restrictions on what actions he can take or skills he can use. He can still rage and gain all the benefits and drawbacks stacked on top of the constant benefits.

Hard Facts of Nature: It's hard being a woodland creature. You must constantly eat things that don't want to be eaten, and things constantly try to eat you. Badgers are adept at finding prey, and equally good at not being prey. The badger gains the Track feat as a bonus feat even if he does not meet the prerequisites. In addition, he gains a +4 racial bonus on Escape Artist checks, which increases by 1 for every HD after the first.

At 4 HD, the badger gains the Pounce and Uncanny Dodge extraordinary abilities. He's a big badger now, and he has to kill things faster and keep things from killing him just as often.

At 8 HD the badger gains tremorsense with a range equal to his HD. He knows he has to stay alert to stay alive. He also can also make one extra attack with each of his natural weapons due to a high base attack bonus.

At 12 HD the badger constantly fights larger predators who know that twelve hit dice of badger could make an amazing meal. The badger gains Improved Uncanny Dodge and Damage Reduction/- equal to half his HD. His attacks also now count as magical weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

At 16 HD the badger is astonished he's still alive, but knows things are getting dark in his future and he steels himself against the worst. He gains immunity to mind-affecting and fear effects as well as illusions, refusing to delude himself about his chances of success. He may also make another extra attack with each of his natural weapons due to a high base attack bonus.

At 20 HD the badger is ridiculously awesome, because he is officially an "epic badger" and no one ever thought such a thing would exist. He is immune to everything but melee attacks, and he is only threatened by enemies who he also threatens, even if they have more reach than he has movement squares. In addition all of his attacks are at his highest base attack bonus, and his natural weapons automatically overcome all damage reduction.

Comments:
I couldn't take it too seriously or else people would think it was serious.

It's actually pretty strong due to the fact that it's only one level long, you can go badger 1/wizard 19 or something ridiculous like that.

It wouldn't be that hard to make an actual badger class, like I said though I didn't want anyone to take it too seriously.

Gorgondantess

2011-03-24, 08:19 PM

By the way, I did not make every change Gorgondantess requested but I did reply to them (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10565652&postcount=1310). This doesn't mean "Hahaha, I'm not gonna change anything", but rather I'm explaining my reasoning on the grounds that you may have assumed certain decisions were the result of not thinking things through rather than seeing the internal logic I was trying to work from. If you still think there's a problem, I would like to work out the necessary improvements; the lack of major changes to the Coure isn't a result of ignoring or not seeing the suggestions, but rather a result of wanting to discuss them further.

I realize that. I just didn't have time to do it.
So, without further ado:

Brass Golem:smalltongue:

It gains a +1 to all checks with this skill, but a -2 to one other skill.
Okay. -2 to Craft (basketweaving). Oh noes!
I'd change aluminum to tin. First of all, in olden days, pure aluminum was more expensive than gold, as it was almost impossible to refine. Secondly, tin+brass=bronze. Which is cool.
4th level is pretty dead. I wouldn't look forward to it. Generally you'll want something a little more active by then, anyways.
Hunter's weapon: can it only form one?
Does the critical threat range increase apply before or after stuff like keen?
Sheer force: need to change it to represent the change to slam.
Favored enemy: em... I'd decrease the amount you get. By level 19 you have more favored enemies than a 20th level ranger.

At 10th level, the Golem may Plane Shift into its labyrinth, bring a number of medium-sized creatures (each size increase doubles the number of creatures a character counts as), with each use of its Play Theseus ability.
How many medium sized creatures?
Anyways, one problem is that it currently doesn't have much going for it. Things have changed in the sense that being balanced and playable isn't enough anymore: it also have to have unique and active abilities. The current brass golem doesn't have much more to it than normal attacks and mazing things. Beyond that, it suffers from the downright logarithmic progression of many other martial classes, as it's a bit frontloaded. Smooth it out and add some interesting abilities.

Coure Eladrin:

If, with that considered, you still think it's too much, we can probably figure something out.
Yeah, I still think it's a little much. Just a little.

I was under the impression that the existing Ghaele Eladrin monster class was depreciated and considered one of the most broken classes of the Oslecamo period, so I didn't use it as a point of standardization. Is this incorrect?
I'm going to call you out on fallacy of composition.:smallbiggrin: Just because something as a whole is X doesn't mean each individual part is X, where in this case X=bad. There are standardized "demon", "devil", and yes, "Eladrin" abilities. Use them. Also, 1st level is a little frontloaded anyways.

It gets size modifiers and the alternate form - both admittedly significant, but not exactly "all sorts of stealth abilities".
It's not so much "stealth" but "infiltrator" that I'm looking at. Tiny size, highly maneuverable, miss chance, auto-succeeds on move silently (for a certain duration), can squeeze through pretty much anything, and can knock out enemies without making a sound (and then they won't even know it if she fails), and 8+int skill points/level. All at level 2, while the whisper gnome rogue (or swordsage, or factotum) curls up in a corner and cries. I personally find the whole "small automatically equals rogue-ish" thing annoying. Why does an embodiment of joy get trapfinding? Why is it so damn skilled? I'd think it would be more of a bardish, support character than infiltrator.

NineThePuma

2011-03-24, 08:20 PM

-snip-

I think I love you.

Tacitus

2011-03-24, 08:31 PM

A badger, but nothing about mushrooms? Not even the occasional snake?

Benly

2011-03-24, 08:36 PM

Yeah, I still think it's a little much. Just a little.

Fair enough. I'll modify to HD + Cha mod, then.

I'm going to call you out on fallacy of composition.:smallbiggrin: Just because something as a whole is X doesn't mean each individual part is X, where in this case X=bad. There are standardized "demon", "devil", and yes, "Eladrin" abilities. Use them. Also, 1st level is a little frontloaded anyways.

I'm not saying "every individual part is bad", I'm saying "I didn't check it over for bits to take because the class as a whole is pretty bad and as far as I know it's going to be scrapped". Moreover, the current Eladrin ability doesn't actually reflect the resistances that eladrin get. Eladrin as a whole resist or are immune to acid, cold and electricity, while the Eladrin ability grants fire, cold, and electricity resistance. I do not think that it's a good idea for the "standardized Eladrin package" to include resistances to entirely different damage types than what the Eladrin subtype gives, given the goal of making classes that "feel like" the monster in question.

It's not so much "stealth" but "infiltrator" that I'm looking at. Tiny size, highly maneuverable, miss chance, auto-succeeds on move silently (for a certain duration), can squeeze through pretty much anything, and can knock out enemies without making a sound (and then they won't even know it if she fails), and 8+int skill points/level. All at level 2, while the whisper gnome rogue (or swordsage, or factotum) curls up in a corner and cries. I personally find the whole "small automatically equals rogue-ish" thing annoying. Why does an embodiment of joy get trapfinding? Why is it so damn skilled? I'd think it would be more of a bardish, support character than infiltrator.

It's not "small automatically equals rogueish". It's "their monster description describes them as messengers and scouts to more powerful celestials, and the original monster's stat block gives them a racial bonus to Hide and Move Silently". I gave them trapfinding so they can fill the role that their monster description explicitly gives them, rather than make up entirely new concept that doesn't fit their description just so it can be less like other tiny creatures.

The firre, you will be pleased to know, is extremely bardish. This is because they are described as embodiments of the artistic drive and guardians of beauty. The coure is described as a sneaky prankster. Therefore I made it sneaky. Again, the goal is to "feel like" the monster in question.

Gorgondantess

2011-03-24, 08:43 PM

I'm not saying "every individual part is bad", I'm saying "I didn't check it over for bits to take because the class as a whole is pretty bad and as far as I know it's going to be scrapped". Moreover, the current Eladrin ability doesn't actually reflect the resistances that eladrin get. Eladrin as a whole resist or are immune to acid, cold and electricity, while the Eladrin ability grants fire, cold, and electricity resistance. I do not think that it's a good idea for the "standardized Eladrin package" to include resistances to entirely different damage types than what the Eladrin subtype gives, given the goal of making classes that "feel like" the monster in question.
Ah. Well, apologies for not looking into that, then. Nevertheless, it should be along those lines.

It's not "small automatically equals rogueish". It's "their monster description describes them as messengers and scouts to more powerful celestials, and the original monster's stat block gives them a racial bonus to Hide and Move Silently". I gave them trapfinding so they can fill the role that their monster description explicitly gives them, rather than make up entirely new concept that doesn't fit their description just so it can be less like other tiny creatures.
Then where did
Being a creature of light and joy is more than metaphorical. come from?:smallconfused: I personally would've worked off of that.
Anyways, if you won't do it, I won't say NO!, but I just thought it'd be something to work off of to make the creature more unique.

Benly

2011-03-24, 08:55 PM

Ah. Well, apologies for not looking into that, then. Nevertheless, it should be along those lines.

Well... it is along those lines. It's resistance scaled by HD until the point where it matches the original creature's resistance, at which point it stops. The difference is that this ability more accurately reflects the abilities of the original creature. I know that the goal here isn't to exactly replicate the original creature's abilities, but I feel like when the original creature can be matched without causing imbalance or problems it's probably worthwhile to do so.

Then where did "Being a creature of light and joy is more than metaphorical. " come from?:smallconfused: I personally would've worked off of that.

It comes from the part where you actually physically transform your body into light and joy. :smallsmile: There's a reason I specified that the coure can fit through any space wide enough to shine a light through.

Anyways, if you won't do it, I won't say NO!, but I just thought it'd be something to work off of to make the creature more unique.

I feel like if I was going to add more to the class it would probably be to add more "prankster"-ish options. I might do that yet if it's warranted. I don't think bard abilities are exactly in keeping with the way coure are presented.

Edit: To clarify, the flavor we are given for coure eladrin in canon is that they are creatures of light and joy who are natural sneaks and pranksters and endlessly curious. They are used as scouts and messengers because they are very good at it by nature, and they do it because it's fun. This is why I flavored their trapfinding as a matter of curiosity and inquisitiveness. If I expand their powers, it will be to make them more prankster-y and not to move them away from a sneaky role. Complaining about them being sneaky feels to me kind of like going "Ugh, why is your ogre a melee fighter and not a caster? Geez, it's like every large creature is a fighter!" The coure is a sneak because that's what a coure naturally gravitates to by all the description we have of them.

Scio

2011-03-24, 09:55 PM

Hey, just going to give the classes I'm interested in, since I'm waiting for the next batch review. I'm just going to start posting ideas in spoilers for a while, yes?
Lantern Archon

Well, for this I'm getting a serious Meldshaper vibe, seeing as it's essentially made of souls.
For the lack of hands, Mage Hand as a free action at will for manipulating objects, range equal to 10 X Essentia invested sounds good. I was also thinking of a bonus to it's Essentia pool and the ability to base Essentia off it's Wis. Modifier, much like an undead meldshaper.
Lack of a body to use magic items with might be a problem, but one could probably just say that they can animate a suit of armor from the inside by binding it to a Chakra or something.
For movement, standard hovering-to-flight progression seems okay. I'm probably going to keep the light rays and energy resistances as unique soulmelds for the class. I'll probably use the Acid Spit meld as a base for the light rays, and the standard energy resistance melds like the Behir Gorget for the energy resistance.
As for not needing to eat, sleep, etc. one could make it trance for four hours a day to commune with its superiors or something like that. Maybe it can get sustenance from positive energy, too. Delicious, delicious Cure Light Wounds. Yummy!:smallbiggrin:

Needlefolk

I love these guys. They're weird looking cactus-things, kind of like Saguaro Sentinel lite. This alone would be okay, but not really memorable or anything. No, my favorite part is that they completely despise Elves for no reason whatsoever. As in, it has the urge to hunt down and kill every Elf within a 1500' radius hard coded into it's very being. At this point, it suddenly becomes really scary to be an elf. Yeah, that harmless-looking tree you just passed? That's a serial killer hell-bent on murdering you and your family. It has literally been following you for days without stopping. It will wait until your bold, confident hunting party has their guard down, and then it will begin to pick you off one by one, until you finally panic and run back to your fancy tree village, where you think you'll be safe.
The thing you don't realize is, it's been tracking you. Suddenly, small, thorny trees start appearing in your village. No one realizes what's happening is odd until a few years later, when the trees start to outnumber the villagers. By then, it is far too late. The townsfolk start disappearing. It dawns on you what has happened, but just as you leave home for an emergency town meeting, you are caught by a tree branch. As you try to pull away, and a face enters your field of view. It is like nothing that you have ever seen before, with horrible bulging eyestalks and little else. You decide to accept your fate, to finally give in. You ask the thing in Sylvan to make it quick, but it just quietly shakes it's head...

BOO!
http://www.orcedinburgh.co.uk/wiki/images/thumb/Needlefolk.gif/430px-Needlefolk.gif
Feedback is appreciated.:smallsmile:
EDIT: Added my reasoning for why Needlefolk are terrifying. Look them up in MMII and see if the picture and flavor text doesn't fit my reasoning.

Benly

2011-03-24, 11:36 PM

Well, for this I'm getting a serious Meldshaper vibe, seeing as it's essentially made of souls.
For the lack of hands, Mage Hand as a free action at will for manipulating objects, range equal to 10 X Essentia invested sounds good. I was also thinking of a bonus to it's Essentia pool and the ability to base Essentia off it's Wis. Modifier, much like an undead meldshaper.
Lack of a body to use magic items with might be a problem, but one could probably just say that they can animate a suit of armor from the inside by binding it to a Chakra or something.
For movement, standard hovering-to-flight progression seems okay. I'm probably going to keep the light rays and energy resistances as unique soulmelds for the class. I'll probably use the Acid Spit meld as a base for the light rays, and the standard energy resistance melds like the Behir Gorget for the energy resistance.
As for not needing to eat, sleep, etc. one could make it trance for four hours a day to commune with its superiors or something like that. Maybe it can get sustenance from positive energy, too. Delicious, delicious Cure Light Wounds. Yummy!:smallbiggrin:

Incarnum is an interesting idea, but given their lack of limbs you would probably have to specify some special way for them to shape soulmelds to the body parts they don't have. I would ditch the animating-armor thing, personally; it doesn't fit well with how lantern archons have been depicted generally, and I think one of the big advantages of making it a meldshaping class in the first place would be to let it be effective without having to deal with magic items in ways that don't make sense for lantern archons.

For my part I don't actually see a problem with not having to eat or sleep - it's a nice and flavorful benefit but isn't generally a big mechanical advantage.

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-24, 11:39 PM

Hyudra, do you feel a compromise can be reached? Your concept strikes me as, well, kinda anti-Pleasure Devil, whereas my concept seems to be leading straight into Pleasure Devil, and while I do not comprehend why most of the community seems to view the Erinyes as a warrior, I can appreciate the vox populii. Multiple paths, perhaps?

Hyudra

2011-03-24, 11:49 PM

The erinyes are established as warriors, scholars and leaders by the lore throughout the Fiendish Codex II. Their monster entries also support the warrior & leader aspect. I mean, they're the bodyguards and the war leaders for the dukes and archdukes of the nine hells.

The pleasure devil aspect can simply be explained in much the same manner of a promising soldier in the Army being recruited as a 007 style spy by the people at the top... only less training and gadgets and more hellfire and "With my unholy favor I bestow upon you these powers."

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-24, 11:58 PM

Alright, after some discussion with Gorgondantess, I am dropping the Eryines, though with some protest in favor of the (far superior) 2e fluff. I will be picking up the Gadacro [MMV] in its place.

Scio

2011-03-25, 12:03 AM

Incarnum is an interesting idea, but given their lack of limbs you would probably have to specify some special way for them to shape soulmelds to the body parts they don't have. I would ditch the animating-armor thing, personally; it doesn't fit well with how lantern archons have been depicted generally, and I think one of the big advantages of making it a meldshaping class in the first place would be to let it be effective without having to deal with magic items in ways that don't make sense for lantern archons.

For my part I don't actually see a problem with not having to eat or sleep - it's a nice and flavorful benefit but isn't generally a big mechanical advantage.
The animating armor thing is so they still have the option of using magic items. They can bind Soulbound Weapon or Bloodtalons and attack with those. Not having to sleep can actually be a problem in some games, as it essentially means that the DM can't spring midnight encounters on you, so I thought to give it an ability similar to an Elf but with different flavor. Besides, when else is it going to sit around and pray? Back to the armor thing, though. You know what is also powered by positive energy? Animated Objects. Granted, it doesn't mesh too well, but limiting it's item slots just seems mean, y'know?

Benly

2011-03-25, 12:05 AM

Granted, it doesn't mesh too well, but limiting it's item slots just seems mean, y'know?

I feel like anyone who has a problem with limited item slots isn't going to want to play as a spherical mass of light. :smallsmile: I would instead strongly recommend giving them alternate options sufficient to compensate for the lack of equipped items.

Kobold-Bard

2011-03-25, 12:09 AM

I feel like anyone who has a problem with limited item slots isn't going to want to play as a spherical mass of light. :smallsmile: I would instead strongly recommend giving them alternate options sufficient to compensate for the lack of equipped items.

It does have an option for that.

Why do you want to redo old classe that doesn't need it? I especially don't like this idea because the Lantern Archon has nothing to do with Incarnum. If you want a little ball of Incarnum energy, their is the Soulspark that is exactly that.

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-25, 01:08 AM

I'd also like to take this chance to express unofficial interest in the Sirine [MMII].

Makiru

2011-03-25, 05:21 AM

I would also like to express interest in the kalabon (FCII). Just looking at it and remembering (I think) Hyudra's Goblins gave me a pretty good idea of how to tackle it.

Hyudra

2011-03-25, 10:08 AM

Updated the interest list.

Scio

2011-03-25, 10:37 AM

It does have an option for that.

Why do you want to redo old classe that doesn't need it? I especially don't like this idea because the Lantern Archon has nothing to do with Incarnum. If you want a little ball of Incarnum energy, their is the Soulspark that is exactly that.
Because:
1. Aura of Menace makes no sense for a Lantern Archon.
2. I thought that all of Oscelamo's classes were being redone.
3. Why do all Archons have to be divine casters? It's not like Lantern Archons are that high up in the hierarchy anyways.
4. Yes, it does have the option for that, but it costs twice as much gold to get the same items. This means that you get your +2 sword about 2-3 levels after everyone else.

Kobold-Bard

2011-03-25, 10:44 AM

Because:
1. Aura of Menace makes no sense for a Lantern Archon.
2. I thought that all of Oscelamo's classes were being redone.
3. Why do all Archons have to be divine casters? It's not like Lantern Archons are that high up in the hierarchy anyways.
4. Yes, it does have the option for that, but it costs twice as much gold to get the same items. This means that you get your +2 sword about 2-3 levels after everyone else.

1. If you say so.

2. I wasn't aware all of Oslecamo's Monsters were being redone. Does that include all the ones done by others during his time?

3. Because they're Archons, that's what they are; casters not Meldshapers. There's never been anything published to make them Meldshapers that I know of (if I'm wrong feel free to mock me for that statement). The Soulspark has the floating Incarnum lightbulb schtick already covered, an Incarnum Lantern Archon would be seriously stepping on it's toes.

4. That I could see being changed, it is a bit unfair.

Scio

2011-03-25, 11:02 AM

1. If you say so.

2. I wasn't aware all of Oslecamo's Monsters were being redone. Does that include all the ones done by others during his time?

3. Because they're Archons, that's what they are; casters not Meldshapers. There's never been anything published to make them Meldshapers that I know of (if I'm wrong feel free to mock me for that statement). The Soulspark has the floating Incarnum lightbulb schtick already covered, an Incarnum Lantern Archon would be seriously stepping on it's toes.

4. That I could see being changed, it is a bit unfair.
2. I have no idea. Gorgondantess mentioned it somewhere in the last thread, but I'm too lazy to find it.

3. Eh, I guess you're right. I was just looking through the MM and I realized that, yes, all Archons are divine casters. I was thinking of the Ealdrins and got the two mixed up.

Hyudra

2011-03-25, 11:13 AM

Cogidubnus

2011-03-25, 11:29 AM

Not all of the monsters from Oslecamo's era are being redone. Some are ok. For the time being, let's just say all of Oslecamo's monsters will be revised and some of the ones from that time period will be as well, on a case by case basis.

The phrase 'questionable sense of balance' has been used. Although the first time I read that, I almost thought 'imbalanced' xD

Are we redoing all the dragons? They weren't too bad I didn't think, if a little bland sometimes.

Frog Dragon

2011-03-25, 11:33 AM

The get absurd amounts of natural attacks at low levels + casting + ridiculous mobility. Some of that has got to go, or it is just broken at lower levels, and questionable at mid/high levels.

That said, it's not too high on our list, but I imagine they will all get a redesign sooner or later.

Edit: We churned through this issue in the last thread, and the eventual consensus was that the dragons are a GM-headache, and blatantly overpowered at low levels.

Cogidubnus

2011-03-25, 12:02 PM

Ok, good to know. In any case, I'm currently enjoying my golems. Need to think of some useful active abilities for the Brass Golem though.

Brass Golem:smalltongue:

Okay. -2 to Craft (basketweaving). Oh noes!
It's the same as a Trait. I just like the flavour of it.
I'd change aluminum to tin. First of all, in olden days, pure aluminum was more expensive than gold, as it was almost impossible to refine. Secondly, tin+brass=bronze. Which is cool.
Copper + tin = Bronze. Brass + tin = something with so little industrial use I never even covered what might happen to it in Engineering...
Regardless, the best way to alloy Brass is aluminium, and the electrolysis of aluminium is easy as pie when you can cast Lightning Bolt.
4th level is pretty dead. I wouldn't look forward to it. Generally you'll want something a little more active by then, anyways.
I'll use this as a place to add an interesting active ability.
Hunter's weapon: can it only form one?
I realised last night myself this needed clarifying - it can form a new one if the old one is destroyed etc.
Does the critical threat range increase apply before or after stuff like keen?
I'll add that in.
Sheer force: need to change it to represent the change to slam.
On it.
Favored enemy: em... I'd decrease the amount you get. By level 19 you have more favored enemies than a 20th level ranger.
When we originally discussed this, we did mention how situational Favoured Enemy is. Most/all Ranger fixes have improving that as one of their main aims. My original ability wasn't exactly Favoured Enemy, it had broader groups, but you said replace it with Favoured Enemy. I would like to at least discuss this more before changing it.

How many medium sized creatures?
Oops, typo. Will add in.
Anyways, one problem is that it currently doesn't have much going for it. Things have changed in the sense that being balanced and playable isn't enough anymore: it also have to have unique and active abilities. The current brass golem doesn't have much more to it than normal attacks and mazing things. Beyond that, it suffers from the downright logarithmic progression of many other martial classes, as it's a bit frontloaded. Smooth it out and add some interesting abilities.
I will try to come up with some more abilities. What do you mean by smooth it out?

Replies in bold. Will go edit now.

Ed: Made my changes. Added three new abilities, at 4th, 6th and 10th levels, focussed around the Golem's hunting a single foe at a time.

Zemro

2011-03-25, 12:39 PM

I have expressed existing Interest in taking on the Hound Archon and all remaining Archons. If the Latern Archon is up for being redone, it seems logical that it would fall under that selection.

Since Archon's have a few similar traits, I was hoping to emulate that with a cohesive feel throughout the various classes. Essentially giving each class a slightly different spin on the abilities possessed by all Archons.

I'm not really a fan of the meldshaper interpretation, especially since it would be at odds with the rest of the Archons. If you really want to do the class, perhaps we can work something out together, though it does seem that our individual interpretations will be different (from my point of view).

Perhaps you could pursue some of your other monster ideas first? At the very least it'll provide me an opportunity to present the Hound Archon and demonstrate the standardization I have in mind.

EDIT: You can remove the Interest note for me and the 'Karrash' class, that's a misspelling of Marrash, which I've already completed.

Frog Dragon

2011-03-25, 12:58 PM

Since I am getting closer to the finish line every day with my dragon, I want to confirm one thing.

Repost: Yay or Nay?

The extent of the changes is following: The dragon has been split into two. A caster path, and a warrior path, both of which gain different abilities which are rather wildly different from what the original dragon had. The breath abilities the old one had are going to be mostly folded into the Breath Power ability, which comes every four levels, starting at level 3, allowing the dragon to choose an extra trick for the breath weapon.

It still gets the same senses, flight and resistances the old one did, but they have been shuffled around.

The War Dragon version will play dramatically different compared to the old version.

It has mostly the same SLA:s.

Scio

2011-03-25, 01:31 PM

Cogidubnus

2011-03-25, 01:49 PM

Just flicked through the Unfinished Monsters and picked one I thought I might like to comment on.

GeckoKing:
Aboleth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10367328&postcount=473)
You misspelt "equal" in the Just As Planned ability. Also, the text says "at second level", the table at first.
Does it gain Dark Knowledge as an Archivist of its Aboleth level even if it doesn't have any Archivist levels?
I like Primordial Path. Variety is good, and fun.
It's traditional to say what the total ability increases are after all class levels have been taken, in addition to stating what increases occur when.
Forbidden Dreaming: As it's possible to intentionally fail a save, do you want Aboleths to have the capacity to stay in there indefinitely by choice?
Might want to say Endless Growth caps with Colossal (I assume it does, never heard of a larger size) to avoid confusion/griping?

Stycotl

2011-03-25, 01:58 PM

Alright, after some discussion with Gorgondantess, I am dropping the Eryines, though with some protest in favor of the (far superior) 2e fluff. I will be picking up the Gadacro [MMV] in its place.

regarding this whole issue of multiple variants of the same monster, and who gets to do them, specific responses to some earlier comments are spoilered below, but the readers' digest version of my thoughts consists of a few things that i can summarize here.

the comment has been made more than once that there isn't time to do multiple monsters. but the fact is that this is wrong. you all do have time to put up with multiple variants of the same creature.

like it or not, this is an open-ended project––it never will be done. there will always be monsters that still need to be made into class progressions (especially since this project will eventually die as do all the rest).

what it comes down to for me is that i would rather see 10 monsters posted, even if only 3 of them eventually make it to the links on the front page; in the end, more monsters will be created this way, and even if they're not all fully critiqued and council-certified (for whatever that's worth), i'll still add them to my library and fix them as needed.

but if you guys go about stomping on homebrewers for wanting to try something new, you are in actuality discouraging them from helping out, and then this will take that much longer to get to whatever arbitrary "done" point you seem to be aiming for.

proposal

i'm liking the he who governs best governs least approach to this project. set some standards and then let people go to work. put the ones that get thoroughly critiqued on the front page. the others are still being used and are still worthy of their place, even if it is indefinitely lost in the middle of the thread somewhere.

allow people to make multiple variants of the same thing if they want. it doesn't happen all that often anyway, so there isn't any harm in allowing it. if it measures up balance-wise, add it to the main page, even if it doesn't replace one of the previous variants.

if you are one of those that just can't be bothered to look at another dragon class because we already have 40 of them, then by all means, ignore the new one. we wouldn't want you to faint from overexertion. if you don't like it, ignore it. not a hard concept.

the alternative, what you guys are suggesting, is to overly legislate the process, driving some people away because they can't understand or can't deal with all of the bureaucracy involved with what should be a simple, cooperative project, and driving others away because they are tired of the ego trips and temper tantrums from those that are not getting their way.

and in case you haven't caught on to it yet, driving people away from the thread actually gets less accomplished in the long run.

long answers

there are only a few experienced homebrewers and a handful more amateur ones critiquing regularly, which means that it people are building anything right, left and centre, there's too much for them to do and nothing ever gets approved.

i don't buy that at all. no offense to anyone here, but some of those "experienced" homebrewers also have off-kilter ideas of game balance, not to mention game theory, not to mention respectful interaction with others.

1––but that is beside the point; the point is that this project is open-ended by design (barring the inevitable loss of interest and thread death). there is no identifiable end in sight. even after the thread inevitably dies (and it will eventually; already has come close a number of times), there will still be more to be done, and someone will resurrect the project and start it over.

2––this project will eventually die just as every other project on the forums has. this one has a lot of traction––currently. but things change. that is not to say that it won't ever be resurrected though.

3––some of you think, "it will be over when we've done the last officially published monster." but you're wrong. because even after that, people will turn to the myriads of awesome homebrew monsters that are just waiting for a monster class progression. i understand that some of you have no interest in making progressions for homebrew monsters and will leave the project at that time. but that doesn't mean that the project is done.

4––next, the group of homebrewers involved in the project will continue to cycle. oslecamo headed it first; now hyudra and gorgondantess lead. but in a few months, someone else will be taking the reigns. further, even those that are not in lead positions will change in and out. that's how it works here.

and these new people will see inevitably see glaring errors in the quality of the monsters that have already been done; a little while from now, posters will be dismissing the current crop of monsters in the same pejorative, unappreciative way that you all discuss oslecamo's creations, without regard to the fact that the earlier monsters helped pave the way for the standards used now, without regard to the long, tedious work put into the current monsters by you guys.

so your point about, "there's too much for them to do and nothing ever gets approved," doesn't strike me as too great a worry. there will always be new monsters to do; there will always be a group of people interested in redoing what has already been done; and believe it or not, this is a good thing.

There's been 6 threads of learning how to run this so far xD

and i still disagree with much of the same premise that i have since the beginning; so those 6 threads haven't done anything to clear up some concerns that some of us have.

so what's your point? 6 threads doesn't in any way imply that things are running smoothly or that the threads are ultimately fostering an atmosphere of creativity and cooperation.

There is the point that if two people are set on something, and inspired to do something, there might be cause for both of them to do it, because they'll get their own versions done much quicker than trying to crank something else out.

even more, this kind of operation leads to a better product in the end. not to mention that a variety of quality products makes for a better economy of the project as a whole.

and even if someone's monster never makes the cut, never gets critiqued by the "council," and never makes it to the front page, it is still something that people will find use for. i've already used some of the monsters that have yet to make it to the first page; i wouldn't have been able to do that if we were any more totalitarian than we already are in this thread.

As for the remakes, there's a big issue of the quality of whatever is being remade.

Mostly, we remake Oslecamo-era critters, because we like our quality.

and that will change. "quality" in this sense is a purely subjective idea, and the current definition will get tossed as soon as the project dies or new homewbrewers come in and head it up.

They are often unbalanced and uninteresting, often striving to pretty much one-up the wizard with thin excuses about needing to match overpowered PRC:s. They don't belong in a game. They might as well not be done yet. That's why we remake them.

that is all your personal opinion, and though i am not arguing it, i am pointing out that two months from now, it might be decided that everything gorgon has created needs to be remade, or that everything done before 2011 needs a facelift.

the project as it currently stands is as subjective as it was when oslecamo was heading it.

As for the laziness, that crossed awfully close to a personal insult.

doubt it; i am simply saying that the "we don't have time" excuse doesn't hold water. take offense if you wish, but none was intended. but either way, it doesn't lose me any sleep.

We don't have infinite time to devote to this project.

i disagree, for reasons i've already mentioned.

I'm a middle-schooler, for one, and everyone else here has stuff to do as well. Sure, we could do stuff twice, but it's inefficient.

you've already done things twice. you will continue to do things twice. if you didn't, you would still be stuck with the quality level that you have attached the oslecamo label to, or as someone else noted earlier, the quality level of the official 3.5 core system.

If you have a vision for something other than a critter that has already been done to our current standards, by gods do pursue your second idea rather than revisiting a critter that is already deemed good and interesting enough for varied play.

by whose standards? why should hyudra or lordgareth be denied the chance to create their vision of the same monster? obviously one of them doesn't think that the other version is as good and interesting as they think their own version would be, so let them both make a version.

We want to get stuff done. And having a Psurlon and a Basilisks is better than two basilisks, because a psurlon and a basilisk fill two different concepts and ideas, while two basilisks are going to fill the same need and concept. That is why we discourage repeats of properly done monsters.

the whole reason that we are having this discussion is because two homebrewers have different ideas and concepts about what needs to be done. you are artificially separating the two because one of the pairs of creatures will look more or less the same and come from the same plane.

Four. Two of them were under someone who had a questionable sense of balance.

this is precisely the attitude that isn't going to work in this so-called community project. nine, you have proven over and over again that you don't really want to work with the group, so you might as well go do your own thing. then you can be unrepentantly disrespectful in your own thread.

i certainly had my own issues with the way that oslecamo ran the first two threads, but you seem to have forgotten that some of his inheritors inherited the same personality complexes, and by your fairly selfish posts, i doubt you'd handle it any better. so instead of picking on a guy who is not even here any longer to defend himself, why don't you clean your act up and help fix the problem. if you don't understand what you can do to help out here, then ask around; i'm sure that i'm not the only who has found your attitude less than helpful.

Mystic Muse

2011-03-25, 02:05 PM

i disagree, for reasons i've already mentioned.

Disagree all you want, none of use have infinite time and you disagreeing isn't going to change that.

Cogidubnus

2011-03-25, 02:12 PM

some of you think, "it will be over when we've done the last officially published monster." but you're wrong. because even after that, people will turn to the myriads of awesome homebrew monsters that are just waiting for a monster class progression. i understand that some of you have no interest in making progressions for homebrew monsters and will leave the project at that time. but that doesn't mean that the project is done.

You seem to have missed my point rather. I mean the amount of work created by lots of people homebrewing, not the number of monsters. What happens is that people get left with NO critique or even response to their work, cos no one has the time/energy to look at it. It's essentially why my Brass Golem stopped in the middle of the 3rd thread - Gorgondantess couldn't handle the number of monsters being produced, many by new homebrewers which either had OP or weak abilities throughout, so he turned to a voting method by which people chose monsters they liked. And most people either didn't vote or couldn't be bothered to read lots of monsters, so people got left by the wayside.

Regardless, it is currently Gorgondantess and Hyudra's project, so I'm with them.

Hyudra

2011-03-25, 02:21 PM

I would posit that the health of the project is very much tied to the amount of critiques that are made. From my own observations, I have seen the thread slow to a near standstill at times when no critiques were offered, and surge to life for days after a batch critique.

That said, not to sound too self aggrandizing, I think that of the current posters, both Gorgon and myself are each offering up more critiques than everyone else put together. If either of us were to get sick of the project and/or stop posting for whatever reason, I think the project would suffer proportionally.

Finally, third statement before I get to my point, I stress that we can't stop you from posting. We don't really have any control over what you post, we're not moderators, and we can't kick you out of the thread. If you want to post Half Dragon version IV, then go for it.

My point is this: at the end of the day, there's no reason to fritter away a relatively limited commodity (the time & motivation of the people doing critiques) on something that ultimately doesn't support the project goals. Speaking just for myself, I'll just say that if people are demanding I do critiques for revisions that didn't need doing or alternate monsters that don't improve upon those already vetted, I"m going to get sick of the project faster than you can say Cthulhu fhtagn tsathoggua.

So I don't plan to do critiques for such, just like I dont' plan to do critiques for people in the thread who are argumentative, 'strongly opinionated' and/or rude/disrespectful. And if I (and I'm assuming from past conversations that Gorgon feels much the same way) am not doing critiques for such individuals, then really, going by the paragraph at the top of the thread, I'm inclined to question just how much life such individuals & their alternate/revised monsters are going to bring to the project.

So if you want to do alternate monsters, go for it. It's just... we probably won't critique it and we probably won't bother to add it to the front page if it doesn't improve on what's already there.

Frog Dragon

2011-03-25, 02:22 PM

i don't buy that at all. no offense to anyone here, but some of those "experienced" homebrewers also have off-kilter ideas of game balance, not to mention game theory, not to mention respectful interaction with others. That's why were a community, and we critique. Not like anyone's work is the gospel here.

1––but that is beside the point; the point is that this project is open-ended by design (barring the inevitable loss of interest and thread death). there is no identifiable end in sight. even after the thread inevitably dies (and it will eventually; already has come close a number of times), there will still be more to be done, and someone will resurrect the project and start it over.

2––this project will eventually die just as every other project on the forums has. this one has a lot of traction––currently. but things change. that is not to say that it won't ever be resurrected though.

3––some of you think, "it will be over when we've done the last officially published monster." but you're wrong. because even after that, people will turn to the myriads of awesome homebrew monsters that are just waiting for a monster class progression. i understand that some of you have no interest in making progressions for homebrew monsters and will leave the project at that time. but that doesn't mean that the project is done.
As I said, two different monsters are better than one of the same monster. This does not change depending on if the "end" is reached. Also, we have a homebrew spinoff project.

4––next, the group of homebrewers involved in the project will continue to cycle. oslecamo headed it first; now hyudra and gorgondantess lead. but in a few months, someone else will be taking the reigns. further, even those that are not in lead positions will change in and out. that's how it works here. Possibly. However, look at the stuff currently posted. Quality doesn't increase forever. What we are doing right now is a marked improvement in elegance and balance, and I doubt we have that much room to improve anymore. There is an endpoint to quality here, and while we haven't reached it, we're pretty good for a community project.

and these new people will see inevitably see glaring errors in the quality of the monsters that have already been done; a little while from now, posters will be dismissing the current crop of monsters in the same pejorative, unappreciative way that you all discuss oslecamo's creations, without regard to the fact that the earlier monsters helped pave the way for the standards used now, without regard to the long, tedious work put into the current monsters by you guys. See above.

so your point about, "there's too much for them to do and nothing ever gets approved," doesn't strike me as too great a worry. there will always be new monsters to do; there will always be a group of people interested in redoing what has already been done; and believe it or not, this is a good thing.

and i still disagree with much of the same premise that i have since the beginning; so those 6 threads haven't done anything to clear up some concerns that some of us have. We have still come a long way. Models have been abandoned and such but as far as I have seen, quality has been about the same since some time after Oslecamo left, with perhaps slight improvements. Organization worries are something else entirely, but the council should serve to avoid anyone dictatoring over the project. I haven't noticed any bad bureaucracy here, and what there is, is strictly to make sure we keep up our standards.

so what's your point? 6 threads doesn't in any way imply that things are running smoothly or that the threads are ultimately fostering an atmosphere of creativity and cooperation. But it implies we've had time to improve. And we have.

even more, this kind of operation leads to a better product in the end. not to mention that a variety of quality products makes for a better economy of the project as a whole.

and even if someone's monster never makes the cut, never gets critiqued by the "council," and never makes it to the front page, it is still something that people will find use for. i've already used some of the monsters that have yet to make it to the first page; i wouldn't have been able to do that if we were any more totalitarian than we already are in this thread. Having a policy on monster claims makes us totalitarian now? And we have the organization we do precisely so everything can be critiqued and approved, once finished. If something slips through the gaps, that doesn't mean the organization is bad as a concept. It means the organization could use more diligence.

and that will change. "quality" in this sense is a purely subjective idea, and the current definition will get tossed as soon as the project dies or new homewbrewers come in and head it up. Doubt it, as I outlined above.

that is all your personal opinion, and though i am not arguing it, i am pointing out that two months from now, it might be decided that everything gorgon has created needs to be remade, or that everything done before 2011 needs a facelift.

the project as it currently stands is as subjective as it was when oslecamo was heading it.

doubt it; i am simply saying that the "we don't have time" excuse doesn't hold water. take offense if you wish, but none was intended. but either way, it doesn't lose me any sleep.

i disagree, for reasons i've already mentioned.

you've already done things twice. you will continue to do things twice. if you didn't, you would still be stuck with the quality level that you have attached the oslecamo label to, or as someone else noted earlier, the quality level of the official 3.5 core system.

by whose standards? why should hyudra or lordgareth be denied the chance to create their vision of the same monster? obviously one of them doesn't think that the other version is as good and interesting as they think their own version would be, so let them both make a version. IMHO, neither should be denied the chance. But it's better to make different monsters.

the whole reason that we are having this discussion is because two homebrewers have different ideas and concepts about what needs to be done. you are artificially separating the two because one of the pairs of creatures will look more or less the same and come from the same plane. My opinion about the Erinyes debate was that Gareth's Idea could be folded into Pleasure Devil, getting us both concepts.

this is precisely the attitude that isn't going to work in this so-called community project. nine, you have proven over and over again that you don't really want to work with the group, so you might as well go do your own thing. then you can be unrepentantly disrespectful in your own thread.

i certainly had my own issues with the way that oslecamo ran the first two threads, but you seem to have forgotten that some of his inheritors inherited the same personality complexes, and by your fairly selfish posts, i doubt you'd handle it any better. so instead of picking on a guy who is not even here any longer to defend himself, why don't you clean your act up and help fix the problem. if you don't understand what you can do to help out here, then ask around; i'm sure that i'm not the only who has found your attitude less than helpful. A project of this scale just doesn't work without some organization. And what is the exact problem anyway? We constantly strive to improve the project. All my gripes with Oslecamo have been about balance, which is not a subjective measure, once a measure stick has been set. Ours is Tier 3, and Oslecamo's stuff is sometimes better than a wizard. Thus, it is unbalanced. That is all I have actually said about his work.

Responses in blue.

Edit: Yay or Nay on the repost of Black Dragon?

Stycotl

2011-03-25, 02:38 PM

Disagree all you want, none of use have infinite time and you disagreeing isn't going to change that.

my argument is not that we do have infinite amounts of time, else i'd be active on this thread more often.

You seem to have missed my point rather. I mean the amount of work created by lots of people homebrewing, not the number of monsters.

i didn't miss your point, but i disagree with your overall view of the issue.

What happens is that people get left with NO critique or even response to their work, cos no one has the time/energy to look at it...

...Gorgondantess couldn't handle the number of monsters being produced,

and that brings up a separate but related issue as to the method that the threads have chosen in order to critique and accept monsters. but as i said, that is a separate issue.

Regardless, it is currently Gorgondantess and Hyudra's project, so I'm with them.

not really. it is the playground's project; that includes you and kyuubi and everyone else that is contributing or has contributed in the past.

but we are getting caught up in asides. my sole argument is that the project is getting bogged down in councils and rules and classifying who is and who is not a homebrew guru worthy of evaluating entries.

my case and point is gareth's last post regarding the erinyes, the one i quoted in my last post. with the current inflexible "rules" of the project, we are probably not going to see gareth's version of the erinyes. hyudra will make his own version, and it will certainly rock hardcore, because in my opinion, hyudra one of the best homebrewers here.

but do you really think that it is a good thing for us as gamers, or for the project in general, that lordgareth is not going to make his version?

gareth is also an extremely good homebrewer, and his version of the erinyes would have been stellar also. including both of them, we'd have the opportunity to choose between a martial erinyes and a political-intrigue erinyes.

that kind of flexibility and capacity to reach the story and game goals of broader groups of gamers is awesome in my book.

losing out on gareth's erinyes because he felt pressured to give it to hyudra, or losing out on hyudra's erinyes because gareth already had the arbitrary permission of some other arbitrary playgrounder is beyond the definition of a shoddy system.

i certainly don't expect too many others to agree with me; i've argued more or less the same thing since oslecamo's second thread, and i'm pretty sure i'm in the minority. but i still think it is disappointing that we are losing the creations of other people that are just as qualified and just as willing to help out as are the elite "council" and their supporters.

and for a legal disclaimer, i'm not out to hurt peoples' feelings in my assessment of the system, but to help fix it, to get rid of the petty squabbling that keeps strangling production, and to encourage both the newcomers and the vets in the project to keep creating quality monster classes.

aaron.

TheGeckoKing

2011-03-25, 02:41 PM

Just flicked through the Unfinished Monsters and picked one I thought I might like to comment on.

GeckoKing:
Aboleth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10367328&postcount=473)
You misspelt "equal" in the Just As Planned ability. Also, the text says "at second level", the table at first.
Fixed.
Does it gain Dark Knowledge as an Archivist of its Aboleth level even if it doesn't have any Archivist levels?
Er, no. I will clarify.
I like Primordial Path. Variety is good, and fun.
Yay!
It's traditional to say what the total ability increases are after all class levels have been taken, in addition to stating what increases occur when.
Really? Meh.
Forbidden Dreaming: As it's possible to intentionally fail a save, do you want Aboleths to have the capacity to stay in there indefinitely by choice?
Fluff in LoM tells us they REALLY don't want to, but if they REALLY REALLY want to, why not.
Might want to say Endless Growth caps with Colossal (I assume it does, never heard of a larger size) to avoid confusion/griping?
Eh. I'd say it keeps going, but the rules for that aren't in the SRD or anything of that function, so yes, it'll cap.

Replies in bold, and many thanks.

Cogidubnus

2011-03-25, 02:44 PM

Ok, now I understand where you're coming from a bit better, Stycotl. I appreciate what you're saying, for all that I feel that sometimes we need the rules to keep back the chaos.

Your latest post was rather more convincing as you avoided words like "totalitarian", which tend to inflame. I also liked the rather Triumvirate-period feel of the speech :smallcool:

NineThePuma

2011-03-25, 02:48 PM

Okay, having just emerged from an annoyingly long DotA game and an equally annoying PF thread, here's my opinion on the whole issue.

It doesn't matter. Focus on the classes, the byplay isn't important.

On that note, Hyudra, you've got 20 creatures on the called list. Are you actually going to be able to pump those out at a decent pace?

Hyudra

2011-03-25, 02:56 PM

On that note, Hyudra, you've got 20 creatures on the called list. Are you actually going to be able to pump those out at a decent pace?

Called list? No such thing.

And didn't you just tell me that if I wanted to work on something I should note it on the front page?

The reason I hadn't called the Erinyes using the old called list was because I had enough monsters with preliminary work/ideas down for each that I couldn't 'call' all of them in good conscience: http://i53.tinypic.com/11al72a.jpg (that's just my collection folder on my desktop, not counting stuff I've PMed to myself or started on my laptop).

Now that it's the 'Interest list', though, and we're just stating our interest in doing creatures (and requesting people check with us before they do a monster), I can express my interest for said creatures without issue.

NineThePuma

2011-03-25, 03:02 PM

Seriously, Hyu. You're insane.

And the "Interest List" is pretty much the same thing. "Oh, hey, I'm interested in doing this." Wham, bam, ten minutes later, someone posts something you were interested in and it sparks another huge argument.

BTW, throw me up as interested in the Draconic Template and as having second dibs on the Succubus, plz.

Hyudra

2011-03-25, 03:06 PM

Seriously, Hyu. You're insane.

And the "Interest List" is pretty much the same thing. "Oh, hey, I'm interested in doing this." Wham, bam, ten minutes later, someone posts something you were interested in and it sparks another huge argument.

If someone posts a monster without checking the done/abandoned/unfinished/interest lists and/or without following thread procedure, It'll probably be discussed between the council members with said monster being boycotted.

Cogidubnus

2011-03-25, 03:07 PM

And the "Interest List" is pretty much the same thing. "Oh, hey, I'm interested in doing this." Wham, bam, ten minutes later, someone posts something you were interested in and it sparks another huge argument.

I think maybe it should come down to who is actually going to do it first. After all, if you express interest in 10 monsters, then staunchly defend your right to do the first one someone else expresses interest in, you can't in good conscience also insist on having the next one someone wants unless you've done the last one you really wanted to do.

Although Hyudra and Gareth had the problem not of both wanting to do it, but of having highly-differing views on what it should be, and it's fair to discuss what certain monsters should do.

NineThePuma

2011-03-25, 03:07 PM

Which proves my point.

It is STILL the 'called' list in all but name. You have merely opened it up to calling a LOT more monsters at once.

Frog Dragon

2011-03-25, 03:16 PM

The interest list reminds me. Put me down for all yugoloths not done so far. I'll get to my little sub-project once the dragon is done.

Edit @ Gorgon: You still seem to have dibs on the ultroloth. IIRC, you claimed those dibs back in the first thread, and have yet to start. Do you intend to actually do the ultroloth, or do I can I claim those dibs?

Stycotl

2011-03-25, 03:24 PM

spoilered so that we can keep on track and get back to the point of the thread.

I think that of the current posters, both Gorgon and myself are each offering up more critiques than everyone else put together. If either of us were to get sick of the project and/or stop posting for whatever reason, I think the project would suffer proportionally.

i agree; as i have mentioned, the project has very nearly collapsed at least a few times, and with history as our guide, we know it will eventually.

Finally, third statement before I get to my point, I stress that we can't stop you from posting. We don't really have any control over what you post, we're not moderators, and we can't kick you out of the thread. If you want to post Half Dragon version IV, then go for it...

...So if you want to do alternate monsters, go for it. It's just... we probably won't critique it and we probably won't bother to add it to the front page if it doesn't improve on what's already there.

that is what i'm saying. just let them post. don't discourage people from doing it.

have a standard set by which people know what they have to do to get linked to the first page, and then let them do what they want. if you're already satisfied that the current X dragon is good, but others keep making their own X dragon variant because they have different ideas of fluff or mechanics, then just move on to the new stuff that is coming out. if it is put sufficiently plain in the first post, they will know whether they can expect an in-depth critique and move to the first page.

if you really don't want to critique something––for whatever reason––don't do it. you don't need to justify yourself to anyone here; this isn't your livelihood or family or anything. so just ignore the ones you don't want to do.

but please don't discourage people from recreating something that you are already satisfied with, because obviously they are not satisfied with it yet, else they wouldn't be remaking it.

Possibly. However, look at the stuff currently posted. Quality doesn't increase forever. What we are doing right now is a marked improvement in elegance and balance,

i agree with that; it has come a long way.

and I doubt we have that much room to improve anymore. There is an endpoint to quality here, and while we haven't reached it, we're pretty good for a community project.

i disagree there. every time i go back through my old homebrew, no matter how many critiques it received, i still find things that need to be fixed. i will expound later, but the mechanical balance of the project very definitely is subjective, even after you've set a goalpost.

Organization worries are something else entirely, but the council should serve to avoid anyone dictatoring over the project. I haven't noticed any bad bureaucracy here, and what there is, is strictly to make sure we keep up our standards.

organizational worries are at the crux of the issues that i am arguing; tightfisted control of the project spawns less interest and less cooperation. if that is the goal, then the project needs to cease calling itself by the community label. if that is not the goal, then some things need to relax, namely those things that i responded to hyudra with.

Having a policy on monster claims makes us totalitarian now?

having a policy, no. trying to insert some kind of ironclad rule in there that inhibits others from expressing their ideas, yes.

And we have the organization we do precisely so everything can be critiqued and approved, once finished.

not everything needs to be critiqued. example: tacitus made his warforged octopus a few threads back, and in that same post or one directly after it, he said he doesn't care whether it goes on the front page or not. he made it and posted it because he wanted to use it, it wouldn't have been made otherwise, and someone else might eventually like to use it.

as i mentioned at the top of this post, if the conditions by which something will be added to the first page (implying heavy critiques) are explicitly understood by the homebrewers, there won't be any need to do exhaustive critiques of a new half-dragon variant for the 8th time in one week.

but the playgrounders should still be allowed encouraged to post their variants.

IMHO, neither should be denied the chance. But it's better to make different monsters.

you qualified this statement with the acronym you started it with. your opinion. not everyone shares that opinion. i would certainly like to see more monsters done as well, but not at the expense of everything else that people want to do.

no matter though; what i am proposing has the potential to satisfy both parties. there will still be some cooperation and tolerance required by all, but if people are given the ok to post their remakes with the understanding that they won't be getting in-depth reviews unless it turns out to be stupendous, then everyone can be happy.

My opinion about the Erinyes debate was that Gareth's Idea could be folded into Pleasure Devil, getting us both concepts.

that is how oslecamo did it to begin with, and barring some balance issues and the lack of fluff treatment that some of the recent classes have gotten, it worked well. i wouldn't mind seeing that rebalanced at all.

but that's not the point. gareth wanted to make it a base class, which fits with the scope of the project. so there should be no argument against it.

All my gripes with Oslecamo have been about balance, which is not a subjective measure, once a measure stick has been set.

i think you are wrong there. not only wrong though, but missing part of the point. gareth's erinyes remake conflicting with hyudra's wasn't an issue of balance, but of vision and fluff.

they both have different ideas of what the monster's raison d'être should be, both of which are even backed by officially published wizards material. if someone wants to recreate a monster class with a different accentuation on fluff material, they should be encouraged to do so. it only increases the versatility of the project, making it better, and draws in new participation both in the form of homebrew and those who use it.

as far as mechanical balance not being subjective, this is a game, dude. there is nothing at all even remotely close to the laws of physics ruling this game. there is no subjectivity in whether or not the laws of science work or don't work, or whether they should work a different way.

that is not the case with a game, and therefore everyone will have different ideas about what is balanced, even after you've given them a tier ranking to aim for. visit any of the numerous monk fixes, paladin fixes, various other fixes, or any of the character optimization threads or anything else related in order to see that subjectivity in action.

Hyudra

2011-03-25, 03:25 PM

Edit @ Gorgon: You still seem to have dibs on the ultroloth. IIRC, you claimed those dibs back in the first thread, and have yet to start. Do you intend to actually do the ultroloth, or do I can I claim those dibs?

They aren't dibs. They're expressed interest. There's no actual claim beyond "Make a good faith effort to check with this person before starting" and "Reach an agreement with them before you go and do the monster".

In any event, yes, check with Gorgon before you do the Ultroloth.

Benly

2011-03-25, 03:26 PM

I really don't think "all monsters of a given subtype" is a great idea to make a pattern of calling dibs on.

(Yes, it's called the interest list now. People are still treating it as calling dibs.)

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-25, 03:28 PM

The Tygre

2011-03-25, 03:30 PM

Alright, after some discussion with Gorgondantess, I am dropping the Eryines, though with some protest in favor of the (far superior) 2e fluff.

I am disappoint.

I will be picking up the Gadacro [MMV] in its place.

... I am cautiously optimistic.

I'd also like to take this chance to express unofficial interest in the Sirine [MMII].

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRWLG5urpWy6pnykZpU60W5e33JVvX3x XsERJw5jBErJLVKN7re&t=1

EDIT:

Stycotl, part of the reason I bowed at Erinyes is also because my vision seems to be shared by no one in the community; it's not just Hyudra, but everyone that seems to think the Erinyes should be some kind of Marshal or Seargent type. Whatever - I'm not here to fight the community down over fluff. It's no skin off of my back to make and post it in its own thread. Am I a bit bitter about the 3.5 fluff revisions and the community's response to them? Yes. I consider the popular interpretation of the Erinyes to be shallow and lacking in anything interesting. But it is the vox populii, so I have chosen to bow before it.

Hey! What am I, chopped liver?

Frog Dragon

2011-03-25, 03:39 PM

They aren't dibs. They're expressed interest. There's no actual claim beyond "Make a good faith effort to check with this person before starting" and "Reach an agreement with them before you go and do the monster".

In any event, yes, check with Gorgon before you do the Ultroloth.
I like calling them "dibs". Dibs sounds funny. Dibs. Dibs dibsy dibs.....
dibs.
And I have now pestered Gorgon with a PM. Waiting for his answer.

NineThePuma

2011-03-25, 03:40 PM

Hey! What am I, chopped liver?

Seconded. I understand the concept of having them be leader-ish, but really, your idea was very awesome.

Hyudra

2011-03-25, 03:45 PM

Am I a bit bitter about the 3.5 fluff revisions and the community's response to them? Yes. I consider the popular interpretation of the Erinyes to be shallow and lacking in anything interesting. But it is the vox populii, so I have chosen to bow before it.

The Gadacro should be fun anyway. Eye-stealing, teleporting rogues. That summon more.

Delishus eyes.

Sorry that you're bitter. Just speaking for myself though, I find it supremely irritating (and yes, shallow) that female devils infernals have to be sexualized in some fashion. We've got the succubus for that. Part of the reason I was so vocally against the Erinyes being made into a lesser pleasure devil was that it's one of the relatively few cases where you've got established lore portraying women in D&D as attractive but not sexualized, competent, skilled, educated and capable of leading.

NineThePuma

2011-03-25, 03:50 PM

We've got the succubus for that.

Technically, the succubus is Abyssal...

Stycotl

2011-03-25, 03:51 PM

Stycotl, part of the reason I bowed at Erinyes is also because my vision seems to be shared by no one in the community; it's not just Hyudra, but everyone that seems to think the Erinyes should be some kind of Marshal or Seargent type. Whatever - I'm not here to fight the community down over fluff. It's no skin off of my back to make and post it in its own thread. Am I a bit bitter about the 3.5 fluff revisions and the community's response to them? Yes. I consider the popular interpretation of the Erinyes to be shallow and lacking in anything interesting. But it is the vox populii, so I have chosen to bow before it.

The Gadacro should be fun anyway. Eye-stealing, teleporting rogues. That summon more.

most of my argument has come from the very idea itself of telling people that they can't do a class to begin with, but some of it was specifically because i want to see your version of the erinyes. also, it seemed more like you were going for political intrigue and subterfuge than seductress, though i could have read you wrong.

that's a group of three people right off the bat that were looking forward to it. so if you ever get motivated again, don't hesitate.

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-25, 03:52 PM

Delishus eyes.

Sorry that you're bitter. Just speaking for myself though, I find it supremely irritating (and yes, shallow) that female devils have to be sexualized in some fashion. We've got the succubus for that. Part of the reason I was so vocally against the Erinyes being made into a lesser pleasure devil was that it's one of the relatively few cases where you've got established lore portraying women in D&D as attractive but not sexualized, competent, skilled, educated and capable of leading.

"Tempter" can mean a lot of things, and I'd had no intention of sexualizing them beyond their already-present sexuality (to wit: all published Erinyes in modules have a penchant for fighting nude). However, I'd like to point out that said published Erinyes, as well as all the ones in novels based on the D&D universe, are politicians. Additionally, they class into Rogue almost exclusively, focusing on - wait for it - independent action representative of quiet competence and a lack of reliance on minions. The Erinyes isn't a leader, she's an expeditor, a hatchet-man, and a problem solver, whether she does it with a satchel of coins, a quick deal, or a shot to the back. They've never been portrayed as martial, military-minded, or even leadership material - indeed, a lack of basic leadership skills is typically their downfall (of note is the Erinyes in the novel White Plume Mountain), since they don't know how to best use their tools much of the time.

I like your idea in concept, Hyudra. It just doesn't sound like an Erinyes to me. Doesn't Baator have explicit leader-types that we can use those ideas on?

But most of the community likes fighter!erinyes as opposed to rogue!erinyes, with a couple of (flattering) exceptions, so she's yours.

Bloody Initiate

2011-03-25, 04:13 PM

I haven't done a tenth of the research on the Erinyes that you guys have. I just read the entries available and just ended up filling in the blanks.

I will say that while my method wasn't nearly as thorough, it is inspired by the mechanics of the monster presented. I haven't read a lot of post-MM fluff on Erinyes because when I first wanted to play an Erinyes, I was looking only at the MM entry.

It's a lot more "something from nothing" than what others have done, but I always assumed that people wanting to play one would only be running on the same fuel I was.

I also tend to resent a lot of expanded fluff. For example, in the MM Mindflayers are just Mindflayers. The way WotC snuggled up to them in subsequent supplements makes my stomach turn. They went from a formidable and NASTY-EW-I-DON'T-WANNA-LOSE-MY-BRAIN creature to some kind of master race of subterranea, and now you really have to worry about losing your BRAIN! The garden-variety guarantee of it actually takes the horror out of Mindflayers and just sprinkles it everywhere underground. Lame. They try to do the same with Drow, but Drow are so obviously bad at everything that I kill them for sport. It's not like they can stun everyone in a cone-shaped area or something.

With Erinyes, I look at the MM entry and see a devil who is no more developed than any other, which instead of inhibiting my vision enables it. I look at her stat block and I say "what does this devil DO?" and that's where I got my ideas.

Everything beyond that is just fan fiction.

Hyudra

2011-03-25, 04:14 PM

"Tempter" can mean a lot of things, and I'd had no intention of sexualizing them beyond their already-present sexuality (to wit: all published Erinyes in modules have a penchant for fighting nude). However, I'd like to point out that said published Erinyes, as well as all the ones in novels based on the D&D universe, are politicians. Additionally, they class into Rogue almost exclusively, focusing on - wait for it - independent action representative of quiet competence and a lack of reliance on minions. The Erinyes isn't a leader, she's an expeditor, a hatchet-man, and a problem solver, whether she does it with a satchel of coins, a quick deal, or a shot to the back. They've never been portrayed as martial, military-minded, or even leadership material - indeed, a lack of basic leadership skills is typically their downfall (of note is the Erinyes in the novel White Plume Mountain), since they don't know how to best use their tools much of the time.

I like your idea in concept, Hyudra. It just doesn't sound like an Erinyes to me. Doesn't Baator have explicit leader-types that we can use those ideas on?

But most of the community likes fighter!erinyes as opposed to rogue!erinyes, with a couple of (flattering) exceptions, so she's yours.

They're also philosophers, lawyers, bodyguards, squad leaders, scouts and enforcers, in lore and flavor text. I don't know how much I'd emphasize the leader thing until I get further into it.

As far as the warrior aspect, the flavor tends to have them in 'regiments' (FCII, page 56) and 'squadrons' (FC II page 38), patrollers (FC II, page 68, 76) and has them explicitly stated to be warriors (see image text, FCII page 16). The tempter flavor is subdued all in all, and I only note one (special) case of an erinyes being shown to be deployed as such (that is, that isn't a case of the Erinyes as a messenger sent to a cult or being used to foster half devil children). If they were meant to be such, then why wouldn't they have alternate form or ranks in disguise? It just doesn't process.

It just seems as though, if you wanted to write up a winged infernal tempter, you could do that very well with the Brachina/Pleasure Devil.

Bloody Initiate

2011-03-25, 04:18 PM

What's Glasya? It's giving me deja vu. At first I thought you were giving the alternate name for pleasure devil, but that's brachina, so I'm stuck with a scrap of memory taunting me.

...I also feel like as soon as I finish this post I'm going to remember...

Mystic Muse

2011-03-25, 04:20 PM

Hyudra

2011-03-25, 04:21 PM

Fixed. Glasya is one of the dukes, archdukes or their consorts, depending on where you look.

NineThePuma

2011-03-25, 04:22 PM

Frog Dragon

2011-03-25, 04:22 PM

I'm pretty sure Glasya is a lord of the nine, which would make it less than conductive for monster classes.

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-25, 04:31 PM

It just seems as though, if you wanted to write up a winged infernal tempter, you could do that very well with the Brachina/Pleasure Devil.

I want to write up an agent. If I was overtly obsessed on the "tempter" bit I'd gun for Succubus or, even better, a Remmanon [MMV]. Pleasure Devil, like Harvester Devil, irritates me in the resounding scope of its redundancy. As it stands, Baator lacks an agent, a specialist, something that the Abyss gets plenty of. This strikes me as profoundly wrong. Rogue!erinyes has that potential. Very few other devils do.

Bloody Initiate

2011-03-25, 04:38 PM

That's it! I knew it sounded like someone's name, I just couldn't put my finger on it!

A little more on topic than the Glasya discussion (Thank you for clearing that up), I know this has been mentioned before but Zemro's post reminded me: Have you guys ever worked toward a "Type" HD progression for all monsters of a specific type to have? This would be the "standardized" abilities all Baatezu, Eladrin, Archons, etc. have.

I only ask because it actually seems like they'd be pretty easy to do, especially if you went with a sort of "hidden" progression much like bloodlines only according to HD. I know that - for me at least - it's kind of a pain throwing the same rules for DR and energy resistance into every class, because you then have less room for actual imaginative abilities. The class benefits from those things, and you want them to have those things, but it's frustrating when a short class has less room for things because you had to put the standardized bits into it (When it would've been nice to just refer them to a type progression).

I also know that you guys steered AWAY from monsters of a type all having the same advantages (Outsiders and dragons BAB/Save/Skill progression, for example) but you also talk about wanting standardized abilities, and it makes me think those abilities would be reasonably easy to spread into HD progressions that the community could then critique. The progressions could then get their own post (much like class templates, etc.), and get linked in new monster classes of that type, making room for more creativity. It would actually work just like the Monster Manuals do, where the type is explained at the beginning and then you know what it means when you see it later in the class.

Frog Dragon

2011-03-25, 04:42 PM

I'm not sure what you're going for here. My Skeroloth doesn't actually have any of the yugoloth traits (except for the generic outsider type ones), and is just fine that way.

And not quite sure about what you're going for. Taking "monster type" levels to get the typical traits? :smallconfused: I'm kind of confused here.

NineThePuma

2011-03-25, 04:48 PM

Certain subtypes have standardized sets of traits that they all share.

He's suggesting making a method of standardizing the progression of such.

Bloody Initiate

2011-03-25, 04:57 PM

Yeah, it's really not that hard for most of them, which is why I suggested it.

For example*:

Baatezu type
Creatures of the Baatezu type all have the following traits:

-Resistance to acid and cold equal to 1/2 HD.

-Resistance to fire equal to HD. This becomes immunity at 10 HD.

-Bonus on saves vs. poison equal to HD. This becomes immunity to poison at 10 HD.

-Summon Baatezu (Sp): This will be explained in the individual entries of each class.

-See in Darkness (Su): All Baatezu can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by the deeper darkness spell.

-Telepathy with a range equal to 5 x HD.

This would then be critiqued, and once the community was happy with when the abilities are gained, it gets linked in its own post which could be linked in new baatezu classes.

I inserted no creativity or new ideas of my own because the point is standardization not creation, which anyone can do very easily.

*You don't have to use my version of anything, it's just an example.

Lix Lorn

2011-03-25, 05:33 PM

Oh, just for the record, I claimed Succubus a while back in a PM to Gorgon.

Hyudra

2011-03-25, 05:38 PM

Oh, just for the record, I claimed Succubus a while back in a PM to Gorgon.

You'll note that's already on the front page under the interest list.

Mystic Muse

2011-03-25, 05:43 PM

Oh, just for the record, I claimed Succubus a while back in a PM to Gorgon.

This seems appropriate. :smalltongue:

NineThePuma

2011-03-25, 05:46 PM

Cogidubnus

2011-03-25, 05:52 PM

Can someone other than Bloody go after my half Dragon?

It missed out on getting reviewed by 4 hours last time, and since I can't DO anything, my default behavior pattern of 'tweak with something that exists' has been fallen into, which is BAD.

I will endeavour to have another look at it tomorrow. About to go to bed now (:smallsigh:) but here's what I see at a glance:

Wouldn't it be fair to say with Draconic Legacy "you gain one addition HP per HD"? It'd give a benefit to d12 HD-ers, and avoid the slightly confusing wording currently present.
I'm noticing Cloudwalker, the Heritage of a Silver Dragon, is a pretty awesome benefit compared to, say, the Heritage of a Bronze Dragon, Wild Empathy. A Half-Dragon 2/Warlock 1 could allow you to create a fog column and then climb it. Free flight is quite good at 3rd level. Equally, it becomes very weak once you get your wings.

NineThePuma

2011-03-25, 05:54 PM

... THAT'S why people think it's powerful? Shoot, that's nothing. XD

Lix Lorn

2011-03-25, 06:13 PM

You'll note that's already on the front page under the interest list.
Oh. Thanks. xD

This seems appropriate. :smalltongue:
Why do you think I picked it? :smalltongue:

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-25, 06:18 PM

Speaking of revisions, when were you gonna get around to redoing Dryad, Hyudra? Our disagreements over Erinyes aside, you do good work, and I've got a player interested in it.

Hyudra

2011-03-25, 07:17 PM

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-25, 07:42 PM

Dryad I don't have a lot down for. Nice pic, if I can figure out where I stuck it, plus expanding/varying my ideas on the fey from Frostwind Virago.

I didn't have any plans to finish it anytime soon - just adding to it as ideas come to me. I'd be willing to concede the class to someone else if they desired to do it. It's primarily on my list because it's an Oslecamo class, (which I've made a miniproject of) and I'm not overly attached to it.

Mind PMing me your ideas? Sirines are similar, conceptually, so I don't want to cause a conflict.

As an aside, does anyone else feel disgust and shame when contemplating WotC's treatment of the Fey type?

NineThePuma

2011-03-25, 07:50 PM

I'm going to refrain from commenting, cause it'll derail the thread.

Gorgondantess

2011-03-25, 08:06 PM

Hyudra

2011-03-25, 08:06 PM

Mind PMing me your ideas? Sirines are similar, conceptually, so I don't want to cause a conflict.

As an aside, does anyone else feel disgust and shame when contemplating WotC's treatment of the Fey type?

I commented on such in the comments for the Frostwind Virago. Fey have a lot of rich background, lore and flavor to them, and WotC basically doesn't take advantage of any of it. It's flat out tragic.

Re: Dryad and Fey, I generally view the dryad as a lesser fey, not necessarily falling within the scope of seelie or unseelie (I can picture dryads as beautiful and I can see them as pretty nightmarish). With that in mind, my general goal would be to offer an early selection of Seelie, Unseelie and Free - each would each modify the SLAs the Dryad gets, with the former two having very flavorful stuff (Potentially interaction based, see Frostwind Virago) and the latter having just the mechanics, for DMs that don't want such making RP problematic.

All that said, I haven't gotten sufficient feedback on the FWV to know if that's something people like or want and/or whether it's worth building on.

NineThePuma

2011-03-25, 08:07 PM

We've done that. I yammer at people all the time to put that stuff in their monsters.

Put those out some where and label them.

Gorgondantess

2011-03-25, 08:09 PM

Put those out some where and label them.

Don't have to with the interview system. I make sure they know it. Right, Gareth?:smallbiggrin:
(I want to avoid clutter in the OP, anyways. I bet even with what we have now many people haven't read it in its entirety.)

NineThePuma

2011-03-25, 08:11 PM

... The OP isn't cluttered at all. O.o;;

Putting important and valuable data into it doesn't break anything.

Gorgondantess

2011-03-25, 08:12 PM

... The OP isn't cluttered at all. O.o;;

Putting important and valuable data into it doesn't break anything.

It's a slippery slope. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177708) I don't want to make it any more inelegant than it has to be.

NineThePuma

2011-03-25, 08:38 PM

Still not seeing the issue.

"Oh, by the way, here's a list of standard effects that all outsiders of certain types have."

You'll ALSO note that I /never said/ in the OP.

I said 'somewhere' like, you know, the Design Guidelines (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10450355&postcount=742) maybe?

Gorgondantess

2011-03-25, 08:45 PM

Eh, it's fine as is.

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-25, 09:26 PM

I commented on such in the comments for the Frostwind Virago. Fey have a lot of rich background, lore and flavor to them, and WotC basically doesn't take advantage of any of it. It's flat out tragic.

Re: Dryad and Fey, I generally view the dryad as a lesser fey, not necessarily falling within the scope of seelie or unseelie (I can picture dryads as beautiful and I can see them as pretty nightmarish). With that in mind, my general goal would be to offer an early selection of Seelie, Unseelie and Free - each would each modify the SLAs the Dryad gets, with the former two having very flavorful stuff (Potentially interaction based, see Frostwind Virago) and the latter having just the mechanics, for DMs that don't want such making RP problematic.

All that said, I haven't gotten sufficient feedback on the FWV to know if that's something people like or want and/or whether it's worth building on.

As much as I appreciate the Lords Under the Hills, I feel this is a bad way to go - the Celts don't have a monopoly on fey-like beings. Instead, what I feel is that we can all emphasize trickery and deception in our fey and fey-like creatures, hey?

What would folks think if I took the Sirine's admittedly unimpressive spread of abilities and supplemented them with spellcasting? If not, would folks prefer to see (Sp) or (Su) abilities? I'm also going to incorporate a bit of the Siren/Nixie-style legends with an ability that I like to call the Consumptive Voice.

Bloody Initiate

2011-03-25, 10:34 PM

I commented on such in the comments for the Frostwind Virago. Fey have a lot of rich background, lore and flavor to them, and WotC basically doesn't take advantage of any of it. It's flat out tragic.

WotC were really into undead and aberrations for the duration of 3.x. Sadly so were a lot of my DMs :smallannoyed:.

They also spent a lot of time on drow and dragons, but that felt more like fan service than developer preference.

I find myself instead liking a lot of humanoid constructs (and other human-like things), which received no attention or love, and you can see it. I wouldn't have minded if I didn't hate undead and aberrations.

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-25, 10:44 PM

Okay, I just got my MMV back, and I'm having an issue - the Gadacro is a CR3 monster that requires flight in order to function, especially since they have to engage larger creatures in melee to use any of their abilities. Any suggestions?

NineThePuma

2011-03-25, 10:51 PM

Give them flight at 4th hit dice, limited flying ala wyrvern at level 1?

Bloody Initiate

2011-03-25, 11:21 PM

Start it with something like the reth dekala has or tenser's floating disc, where it's more like hovering.

Just make flight the capstone.

Just because you generally can't get flight before 5 doesn't mean it's impossible or completely unfair. Airstep sandals make it possible at 1st level. "Extremely rare" does not automatically equal broken, and since you can pretty much guarantee that the class won't see widespread use in D&D groups everywhere, you can safely make you class into a rare treat.

Gorgondantess

2011-03-25, 11:27 PM

Give them flight at 4th hit dice, limited flying ala wyrvern at level 1?

This. There are a LOT of ways to grant flight before 5th level without, y'know, granting flight before 5th level. I'd say that this is the best one.

Hyudra

2011-03-25, 11:48 PM

From the FAQ:

What are some good rules and rules of thumb to go by?

Flight:
Shouldn't be granted before 4th level. Flight trivializes low level encounters, since very few enemies will have a way of harming a flying PC. It lets PCs hang in the air and fire ranged weapons until the enemies are dead, or escape unhindered if things go south.
Grant flight at 4th level if the base monster uses flight as an integral part of its nature. A wyvern, imp, giant eagle and giant wasp would be instances of monsters who just aren't the same without flight.
Grant flight at 5th level for creatures who get it, but don't rely on it. Cases might include some celestials and some humanoid psionic creatures.
For creatures who just can't deal without some means of flight before 4th level, consider a placeholder ability. The Harpy, for example, gains the ability to make augmented Jumps and Climb checks, using her wings to bear her up. The Wyvern and Imp can fly at early levels, but have to land at the end of each turn of flight.
Finally, we should give a nod to those creatures who levitate and lack limbs to carry them about. Beholders, brain in a jar and the like all float. To keep them from taking to the sky, consider an ability that lets them float only a certain height above the ground. At 4th-5th level they might gain an ability that frees them from this restriction.

So give it a limited flight variant at 1st, 2nd or 3rd level, and note something like "At 5HD this creature gains flight with X maneuverability and Y speed."

Lord_Gareth

2011-03-26, 12:28 AM

Gadacro [MMV]
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM5_Gallery/106286.jpg

Class:

HD: D6

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|
Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+2|
+2|Gadacro Body, Sneak Attack +1d6, Sudden Escape, Flight, +1 Dexterity

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+3|
+3|Demon, Reinforcements, Cripple Senses, Swarm Tactics, +1 Constitution

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+3|
+3|Binding Curse, Sneak Attack +2d6, +1 Dexterity, +1 Constitution[/table]

Skill Points at First Level: (6 + Intelligence modifier) x4
Skill Points per Level: 6 + Intelligence modifier
Class Skills: The Gadacro’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Disable Device (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (The Planes) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).

Proficiencies: The Gadacro is proficient with its own talon attacks; it gains no additional weapon or armor proficiencies.

Gadacro Body: The Gadacro loses all other racial bonuses and becomes an Outsider. It gains Outsider traits. Unlike most Outsiders, a Gadacro's darkvision functions to a range of 120 feet, and they can also see four times as well as a human does in shadowy illumination. Gadacros are small sized creatures with a base land speed of 20 feet. Gadacros possess a single talon as a primary natural attack, dealing 1d6 + strength modifier slashing damage, and threatening a critical on an 20 with a x3 multiplier (the talon's critical threat threshold to 19-20 at three hit dice, 18-20 at eight hit dice, and 17-20 at fifteen hit dice. This increase is considered part of the weapon; that is, it is applied before, and stacks with, effects such as the Improved Critical feat or the keen enhancement). Unlike most natural weapons, a Gadacro may make iterative attacks with his talon, and may also make a single move action each turn and still perform a full attack action, provided he attacks with only his talon. Gadacros begin play speaking their choice of Abyssal, Celestial, or Common, gaining bonus languages for high intelligence as normal.

Attribute Increase: The Gadacro gains a +1 racial bonus to Dexterity at levels one and three, and a +1 racial bonus to Constitution at levels two and three for a total adjustment of +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution at level three.

Sneak Attack (Ex): Gadacros know how to strike opponents where they're weak or helpless; at first level, they gain sneak attack +1d6, which increases to +2d6 at third level. See the rogue class feature.

Sudden Escape (Ex): Starting at first level, when the Gadacro is damaged by a hostile creature, they may choose to vanish in a puff of foul-smelling smoke and brimstone, teleporting up to five feet per hit dice as an immediate action. Once the Gadacro reaches six hit dice, he may choose to teleport in this manner as an immediate action, rather than only when he has been damaged.

When the Gadacro gains this ability, he must wait three rounds between uses; at six hit dice, he must only wait two rounds between uses, then only one round at twelve hit dice. The Gadacro may use his Sudden Escape every round at eighteen hit dice.

Flight (Ex): Starting at first level, a Gadacro may fly at a speed equal to ten feet per hit die at perfect maneuverability (maximum fly speed eighty feet), but only if he both begins and ends his turn touching the ground. Starting at four hit die, the Gadacro no longer needs to begin or end his turn on the ground.

Demon: At 2nd level, the Gadacro gains resistance to electricity and a racial bonus on saves against poison equal to his hit dice, and resistance to fire, acid and cold equal to half his hit dice, as well as DR/Lawful or Good, equal to one-half his hit dice. In addition, he gains the evil and chaotic subtypes and his attacks with natural and manufactured weapons count as chaotic and evil for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.

Reinforcements (Sp): A Gadacro of second level or higher may use mirror image and summon monster I once per day each as spell-like abilities (the Gadacro gains an additional use per day of this ability at five hit dice, and again every five hit dice thereafter), both cast as if by a sorcerer of its hit dice. At four hit dice, it may cast summon monster II instead of summon monster I, and the Gadacro continues to replace its summon monster ability with its next-highest iteration every two hit dice until it gains the ability to cast summon monster IX as a spell-like ability at eighteen hit dice. A Gadacro may only summon neutral evil or chaotic evil monsters with this ability.

If a Gadacro summons other Gadacros using this ability, an additional Gadacro appears under its control above and beyond what the spell would normally summon. Gadacros appear on the summon monster IV list.

Swarm Tactics (Ex): Gadacros of second level or higher are considered to be flanking a hostile creature as long as any other creature friendly to the Gadacro is threatening its space (this ability does not allow a Gadacro to flank with ranged attacks).

Cripple Senses (Ex): Whenever a Gadacro of second level or higher successfully sneak attacks an enemy or confirms a critical hit against it, it may attack their eyes, tongue, or ears; the Gadacro chooses to blind, deafen, or silence their foe for a number of rounds equal to their hit dice (a successful Fortitude save against DC 10 + 1/2 the Gadacro's hit dice + his dexterity modifier negates the effect). A creature currently suffering the effects of Cripple Senses cannot be the victim of this ability again until its effects wear off.

At four hit dice, the Gadacro chooses two of the above options and also renders the victim incapable of using their darkvision, low-light vision, or blindsense for the duration of the effect. At six hit dice, the Gadacro also eliminates their ability to use Scent. At eight hit dice, the Gadacro may also choose to eliminate their ability to use their blindsight or tremorsense. At ten hit dice, the Gadacro disables all of their victim's senses and renders them mute when they successfully use this ability.

Binding Curse (Su): A Gadacro of third level or higher may unleash a binding curse on its victims, rendering them unable to flee from them; the Gadacro may activate this ability once per encounter as a move-equivalent action, designating a single victim within 100 feet. If their victim fails a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the Gadacro's hit dice + his charisma modifier), it becomes rooted to its square; all of its speeds reduce to zero feet for a number of rounds equal to the Gadacro's hit dice. Flying beings that fail their save against this ability plummet to the earth slowly, as though affected by feather fall. At eight hit dice, flying beings instead plummet at the full normal falling speed, even if they would normally benefit from feather fall, the slow fall ability, or other, similar protections.

Comments

Gadacros! They're small, they're quick, they want to eat your eyes! These little imp-like guys hold a special place in my heart, and have received a bit of a power boost here. They're an obvious Rogue or Swordsage multiclass, and get plenty of mobility to make up for that tiny hit point pool that they don't like. The key traits of the Gadacro are their sneak attack and sudden escape, which lets them take advantage of (and get into) tactical positions that other party members would need much more effort to worm their way into, though their reinforcements ability can turn the tide if the party's backed into a corner.

Gadacros are, incidentally, native to the Abyss.

Changelog

Saturday, March 26, 2011 [1:58 AM EST] - First draft completed.
Saturday, March 26, 2011 - Modified the Binding Curse ability to punish flyers.[/B]
Monday, March 28, 2011 [12:51 AM EST] - Gave Sudden Escape a scaling recharge.
- Made Binding Curse into a move-equivalent action.
- Rolled Scavenger's Frenzy into Gadacro Body.
- Made the talon's critical hit threshold scale.
- Cleaned up wording in general.
Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - Re-scaled Talon progression
- Cleaned up wording on the Demon ability's damage reduction.
- Added scaling uses/day for the reinforcements ability.
- Explicitly stated the list that Gadacros may be found on for Summon Monster.
- Cleaned up Sudden Escape recharge.