General Exalted Discussion III: Weddings Are An Act of Villainy

[Jokasti]

Have a question about committed Essence? Want to discuss the Balorian Crusade? Infernals or Abyssals? What sort of build can throw Creation at some Shinma? Just how high can we get that Serenity's Appearence? This is your thread. Discuss with fervor.

Reynard's Sheets:
Solar, Abyssal and Infernal SheetName:
Exalt Type and Caste:
Anima:

Motivation:

Urge [If Infernal]

Background:

Attributes
Primary (Physical/Social/Mental): 8
Secondary (Physical/Social/Mental): 6
Tertiary (Physical/Social/Mental): 4

Physical:
Strength ●
Dexterity ●
Stamina ●

Social:
Charisma ●
Manipulation ●
Appearance ●

Mental
Perception ●
Intelligence ●
Wits ●
Abilities (Specializations +)
[Note: Place [C]aste and [F]avoured tags, for clarity.]
Total without BP/XP: 28
(If using Dawn Solution rules, 4 free specialty dots, and Abilities can be raised to 5 without BP)

Archery
Martial Arts
Melee
Thrown
War

Integrity
Performance
Presence
Resistance
Survival

Craft
Investigate
Lore
Medicine
Occult

Athletics
Awareness
Dodge
Larceny
Stealth

Bureaucracy
Linguistics
Ride
Sail
Socialize
Backgrounds, Artifacts and Equipment:Backgrounds:

Artifacts and Equipment:
Artifact: X [What it is], fluff name
Important features.
[Source]

Manse: X
Stone: [Which Hearthstone] (Location, if socketed) [Source]
Creation Points: [(Value of Manse x2)+bonus from Manse Flaws]
> [List what the points are spent on]
Resources: X
Reason for value
> [List of purchases, and sources]
Charms
Ability/Yozi
Excellencies
[Charms]
Combos:

Combat Stats:
Join Combat:

Attacks:Hands:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+1)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)+2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 3

Feet:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+3B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)-2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 2

Clinch:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: - | Rate: 3
Dodge DV: X [((((Dex+Ability)+Essence)+Bonus Dice From Equipment) = X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers]

Permanent Charms (Effects)

Soak:
Bashing: [((Stamina+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Lethal: [(((Stamina /2)+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Aggravated: [Armour+Any other Modifiers)]

Hardness:
Bashing: [Highest value from any source]
Lethal: [Highest value from any source]
Aggravated: [Highest value from any source]

Health:
-0 [ ]
-1 [ ][ ]
-2 [ ][ ]
-4 [ ]
X [ ]

Mental Defenses:
Dodge MDV: [((((Willpower+Integrity)+Relevant Specialty)+Essence)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]
Charisma Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Charisma+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Charisma+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
Manipulation Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Manipulation+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Manipulation+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]

Virtues:
Compassion ●
Conviction ●
Temperance ●
Valor ●

Virtue Flaw/Flawed Virtue:

Intimacies:

Languages:
??? (Native)

Willpower: ●●●●●

Essence:
Permanent: ●●
Personal: Current (Max) [(Permanent Essence x3)+Willpower]
Peripheral: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [(Permanent Essence x7)+Willpower)+Sum of Virtues]
Bonus Points and XP:
Bonus Points:

Total: 15/15 (18/18 If using Dawn Solution rules.) | Flaws:

Experience Points. Spent: X | Left: Y | Total: Z
Lunar SheetName:
Caste:
Spirit Animal:
Anima:
Tell:

Motivation:

Background:

Attributes
Primary (Physical/Social/Mental): 8 [9 If using Peter Schaefer's rules]
Secondary (Physical/Social/Mental): 6 [7 If using Peter Schaefer's rules]
Tertiary (Physical/Social/Mental): 4 [5 If using Peter Schaefer's rules]
[Note: Place [C]aste and [F]avoured tags, for clarity. Casteless do not get Caste abilities, obviously]
(Specializations +)

Physical:
Strength ●
Dexterity ●
Stamina ●

Social:
Charisma ●
Manipulation ●
Appearance ●

Mental
Perception ●
Intelligence ●
Wits ●
Abilities (Specializations +)
[Note: Place [F]avoured tags, for clarity.]
Total without BP/XP: 25 [28 If using Peter Schaefer's rules]
(If using Dawn Solution rules, 4 free specialty dots)

Archery
Martial Arts
Melee
Thrown
War

Integrity
Performance
Presence
Resistance
[F]Survival

Craft
Investigate
Lore
Medicine
Occult

Athletics
Awareness
Dodge
Larceny
Stealth

Bureaucracy
Linguistics
Ride
Sail
Socialize
Backgrounds, Artifacts and Equipment:Backgrounds:

Artifacts and Equipment:
Artifact: X [What it is], fluff name
Important features.
[Source]

Manse: X
Stone: [Which Hearthstone] (Location, if socketed) [Source]
Creation Points: [(Value of Manse x2)+bonus from Manse Flaws]
> [List what the points are spent on]
Resources: X
Reason for value
> [List of purchases, and sources]
Charms and Knacks
Attribute
Excellencies
[Charms]

Knacks:
Combos:

Combat Stats:
Join Combat:

Attacks:Hands:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+1)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)+2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 3

Feet:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+3B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)-2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 2

Clinch:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: - | Rate: 3
Dodge DV: X [((((Dex+Ability)+Essence)+Bonus Dice From Equipment) = X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers]

Permanent Charms (Effects)

Soak:
Bashing: [((Stamina+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Lethal: [(((Stamina /2)+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Aggravated: [Armour+Any other Modifiers)]

Hardness:
Bashing: [Highest value from any source]
Lethal: [Highest value from any source]
Aggravated: [Highest value from any source]

Health:
-0 [ ]
-1 [ ][ ]
-2 [ ][ ]
-4 [ ]
X [ ]

Mental Defenses:
Dodge MDV: [((((Willpower+Integrity)+Relevant Specialty)+Essence)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
Charisma Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Charisma+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Charisma+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
Manipulation Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Manipulation+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Manipulation+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]

Virtues:
Compassion ●
Conviction ●
Temperance ●
Valor ●

Virtue Flaw/Flawed Virtue:

Intimacies:

Languages:
??? (Native)

Willpower: ●●●●●

Essence:
Permanent: ●●
Personal: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [Permanent Essence+(Willpower x2)]
Peripheral: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [(((Permanent Essence x4)+Willpower x2)+Highest Virtue x4]
Bonus Points and XP:
Bonus Points:

Total: 15/15 (18/18 If using Dawn Solution rules.) | Flaws:

Experience Points. Spent: X | Left: Y | Total: Z
Sidereal SheetName:
Exalt Type and Caste:
Anima:
Anima Power:

Motivation:

Faction:

Background:

Attributes
Primary (Physical/Social/Mental): 8
Secondary (Physical/Social/Mental): 6
Tertiary (Physical/Social/Mental): 4

Physical:
Strength ●
Dexterity ●
Stamina ●

Social:
Charisma ●
Manipulation ●
Appearance ●

Mental
Perception ●
Intelligence ●
Wits ●
Abilities (Specializations +)
[Note: Place [A]uspicious and [F]avoured (You get four) tags, for clarity.]
Total without BP/XP: 35, with at least 15 in Auspicious and Favoured.
(If using Dawn Solution rules, 4 free specialty dots)
Caste Requirements:
The character must have at least Awareness ••, Bureaucracy ••, Linguistics (Old Realm) •, Lore •••, Martial Arts ••, Occult ••, Socialize •, Stealth • and at least one dot in Archery, Melee or Thrown. There are additional restrictions based on caste:

Chosen of Journeys must have Athletics ••, Linguistics (Old Realm and an appropriate additional language) ••, Resistance ••, Survival •• and Ride or Sail •••.

Chosen of Serenity must have either Craft or Performance ••, Linguistics •• (focusing on eloquent speaking and writing rather than languages), Medicine ••, Presence •• and Socialize •••.

Chosen of Battles must have Archery or Melee •••, Athletics ••, Dodge ••, Presence •• and War ••.

Chosen of Secrets must have Awareness ••, Investigation •••, Larceny ••, Socialize •• and Stealth ••.

Chosen of Endings must have Awareness ••, Dodge ••, Integrity ••, Martial Arts ••• and Stealth ••.
Journeys
Resistance:
Ride:
Sail:
Survival:
Thrown:

Serenity
Craft:
Dodge:
Linguistics:
Performance:
Socialize:

Battles
Archery:
Athletics:
Melee:
Presence:
War:

Secrets
Investigation:
Larceny:
Lore:
Occult:
Stealth:

Endings
Awareness:
Bureaucracy:
Integrity:
Martial Arts:
Medicine:
Backgrounds, Artifacts and Equipment:
Backgrounds:

Artifacts and Equipment:
Artifact: X [What it is], fluff name
Important features.
[Source]

Manse: X
Stone: [Which Hearthstone] (Location, if socketed) [Source]
Creation Points: [(Value of Manse x2)+bonus from Manse Flaws]
> [List what the points are spent on]

Resources: X
Reason for value
> [List of purchases, and sources]
Charms
Ability
Excellencies
[Charms]
Combos:

Combat Stats:
Join Combat: 9 +1 Sux

Attacks:Hands:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+1)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)+2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 3

Feet:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+3B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)-2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 2

Clinch:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: - | Rate: 3

Dodge DV: X [((((Dex+Ability)+Essence)+Bonus Dice From Equipment) = X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers]

Permanent Charms (Effects)

Soak:
Bashing: [((Stamina+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Lethal: [(((Stamina /2)+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Aggravated: [Armour+Any other Modifiers)]

Hardness:
Bashing: [Highest value from any source]
Lethal: [Highest value from any source]
Aggravated: [Highest value from any source]

Health:
-0 [ ]
-1 [ ][ ]
-2 [ ][ ]
-4 [ ]
X [ ]

Mental Defenses:
Dodge MDV: [((((Willpower+Integrity)+Relevant Specialty)+Essence)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
Charisma Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Charisma+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Charisma+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]
Manipulation Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Manipulation+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Manipulation+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]

Virtues:
Compassion ●
Conviction ●
Temperance ●
Valor ●

Virtue Flaw/Flawed Virtue:

Intimacies:

Languages:
??? (Native)

Willpower: ●●●●●

Essence:
Permanent: ●●
Personal: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [(Permanent Essence x2)+(Willpower)]
Peripheral: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [(((Permanent Essence x6)+Willpower 2)+Sum of all Virtues]
Bonus Points and XP:
Bonus Points:

Total: 15/15 (18/18 If using Dawn Solution rules.) | Flaws:

[B]Experience Points. Spent: X | Left: Y | Total: Z
Currently Recruiting Games:
Morph Bark's thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189363)
Princes of the Sky (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187948)
Super Spies (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192422)
Alucard's Game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191590)
Age of Iron (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190716)
Flowing Silver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191401)
Giant Robots (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191971)

List of Previous Threads:
General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172007)
General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183998)

Useful Links:
Exalted Character Repository (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186758)

Props to Xefas for this incarnation's title.

[TheCountAlucard]

Want to discuss the Balorian Crusade?Hells, yeah! :smallamused:

EDIT: Also, seriously, what's up with the "Fair Folk are Looney Toons" mindset? Who the hell came up with it, and why has he not been dragged out into the street and shot? More importantly, how can I cure someone of this dreadful condition? :smalleek:

[golentan]

Well, some fair folk ARE looney toons. Fair folk choose to live by the rules of narrative causality rather than obnoxious "physics" telling them what is and isn't "possible." *spits angrily*

I for one like when the fair folk hit that deranged note where they come off as carefree, goofy, and fun in a truly menacing way, the way the Joker sometimes can in the hands of the right writer.

[hewhosaysfish]

Now, I've read the basic rules a coupla times but I've never played Exalted.
So I get a lot of the wackiness which people talk about and usually just let the rest slide; but I need this:


And, I mean, what's better than a game mechanic that actively rewards cosmic monsters for the pursuit of polygamy? It's certainly unique.

explained to me. Medically need. I may suffer a fatal conniption otherwise.

Also this:

I find it funny that both Infernals and Sidereals both have incentives to get involved in horribly dysfunctional marriages. I have a mental image of a Fiend and a Chosen of Serenity both trying to take advantage of the same horrible, horrible relationship for game mechanics reasons, and it. is. amazing.

[Lochar]

A way to relieve an Infernal's Torment is to create an overly convoluted act of marriage with someone, as a dig at someone else.


I can't remember what the Chosen of Serenity get for causing such a marriage though.

Strange bedfellows.

[Kylarra]

Infernals can reduce their Limit by performing "acts of villainy" that amuse the primordials. One of them is "Exquisite Bride Obsession' which as can be expected focuses on obtaining a bride of sorts.

[TheCountAlucard]

I can't remember what the Chosen of Serenity get for causing such a marriage though.

Strange bedfellows.I think it's the Sign of the Ewer-type stuff, but I remember seeing one of their resplendent destiny thingies wherein as long as they're trying to get married (they can put it off as long as they want, of course, but they have to be working toward said marriage), they avoid all legal scrutiny.

EDIT: You can probably tell I don't do much in the way of playing Sidereals. Once again, waiting for the errata to hit it.

[Kylarra]

I think it's the Sign of the Ewer-type stuff, but I remember seeing one of their resplendent destiny thingies wherein as long as they're trying to get married (they can put it off as long as they want, of course, but they have to be working toward said marriage), they avoid all legal scrutiny.

EDIT: You can probably tell I don't do much in the way of playing Sidereals. Once again, waiting for the errata to hit it.Technically the errata has always been there, you're just waiting for pattern spiders to notice.

[SurlySeraph]

I can't remember what the Chosen of Serenity get for causing such a marriage though.

The big one is a Charm called Lover's Oath, where you marry someone and can thenceforth share Essence, Willpower, and Health Levels with them. You will, of course, want to get someone who you can use as a battery and won't need your life force very often. The hard part is getting the Five-Metal Shrike to sit still long enough for you to put a ring on it.

There are also things they can do to force people into particular behavior (such as Wanting and Fearing Prayer, which prevents people from acting against the dictates of a relationship the Sidereal puts them in), and if they bless a wedding via a Charm whose name I forget the couple gets +1 on "all dice rolls to represent their efforts" for a week.

[Tavar]

You missed my Giant Robot game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191971) that's currently recruiting.

[SurlySeraph]

EvilDM's Age of Iron (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190716) is also recruiting.

EDIT: And now that I think about it, with that Warstrider fix (including the health levels), a Chosen of Serenity who uses Lover's Oath to marry a Royal Warstrider with a maxed AI would do alright. 15 extra motes (if you use the strider's motes to pay for attunement), 10 extra Willpower (5 if you use the chargen errata), and 30 extra health levels. It'd cost 13 background points, but that's worth it.

@V: There are a few more Astrological charms in Return of the Scarlet Empress, and there are a few high-Essence Charms like Swallowing the Lotus Roots that they get versions of; I think most of said high-Essence charms should be in Dreams of the First Age.
EDIT: Wait, StLR has been errata'd to Essence 2. Uh, yeah, Astrological Charms, Sorcery, and SMA.

[IcarusWings]

Quick question, are there any Sidereal Charms (other than SMA) outside of MEP: Siddies and GotMH: Maidens? Because I'm building a high essence Sid at the moment, and they seem to have remarkably few charms.

[Guancyto]

And now that I think about it, with that Warstrider fix (including the health levels), a Chosen of Serenity who uses Lover's Oath to marry a Royal Warstrider with a maxed AI would do alright. 15 extra motes (if you use the strider's motes to pay for attunement), 10 extra Willpower (5 if you use the chargen errata), and 30 extra health levels. It'd cost 13 background points, but that's worth it.

This is made of win.

On an unrelated note, what would happen if an Infernal activated both Nemesis Self Imagined Anew and Tragic Love Amusement on the same target? What would the Intimacy look like?

[Lix Lorn]

EDIT: And now that I think about it, with that Warstrider fix (including the health levels), a Chosen of Serenity who uses Lover's Oath to marry a Royal Warstrider with a maxed AI would do alright. 15 extra motes (if you use the strider's motes to pay for attunement), 10 extra Willpower (5 if you use the chargen errata), and 30 extra health levels. It'd cost 13 background points, but that's worth it.
I have a solar who's in love with her royal warstrider AI.


This is made of win.

On an unrelated note, what would happen if an Infernal activated both Nemesis Self Imagined Anew and Tragic Love Amusement on the same target? What would the Intimacy look like?
It's complicated. (http://xkcd.com/355/)

...and now the Loom of Fate is Sidereal Facebook.

[Guancyto]

Ha ha!

Hmm, Loom-Snarling Deception does mention that Infernals leave messages on the fake Fate strands sometimes. I wonder what the Pattern Spiders would make of it if they started using it like that.

And with Infernal Genius Declaration...

Defiler: And my plans to get 10% off the buns at the local Food Mart have nearly come to fruition!
Spiders: Aieeeee!
Fiend likes this.
Spiders: Aieeee!
Malefactor: Buns? Who needs buns when you can have some delicious locust cookies? [link] They're perfectly nutritious and bursting with flavor! [link]
Spiders: No more, please!
Slayer likes this.
Spiders: For the love of...

[golentan]

The Loom as an infernal social networking site? I like it.

[Jokasti]

I need to do a mockup of that, like what Rich did with Macebook.

[The Rose Dragon]

...Fatebook?

[Yuki Akuma]

...Fatebook?

Obviously.

[golentan]

Don't forget some of the similar sites available to browse along with Fatebook. Fiendster, for example.

[The Rose Dragon]

The fun part is that some popular web sites probably existed in a form or another in the First Age, on the I AM network.

[golentan]

Almost certainly. I-AIM must have been big if nothing else. And I'd like to think that T(errestrial)V(isual Art)tropes was big as well.

[Reynard]

There was also the prototype A(strological)O(rdinating)L(ine), brainchild of the Sidereals. It failed spectacularly, because so many of them worked on it that it was riddled with bugs and horribly unintuitive interfaces.

[The Rose Dragon]

Of course, freedom of speech is anything but on I AM, especially where your fascistic Solar dictators Solars are perfect and all their actions are for a more glorious Creation you can eventually live in, after a few reincarnations at most. Thoughts of usurping them from their position as the righrtful rules of Creation under the Mandate of Heaven is punishable by being turned into soulsteel.

[Tavar]

So.
I might be running a game with a Sidereal in it. A high level game, starting at essence 7. So, he's taking Sidereal Martial Arts. Problem; I'm not good at seeing potential problems with martial arts. I didn't even realize the problems with Cobra style until someone pointed it out to me(though I think some of the issues are overstated).

So. So far, I've okayed Throne of Shadow Style, but he also wants to take Violet Biers Shadow Style and Prismatic Arrangement of Creation Form Style. So, are their any big problems with any of the styles? And if so, could someone point them out?

[Reynard]

So.
I might be running a game with a Sidereal in it. A high level game, starting at essence 7. So, he's taking Sidereal Martial Arts. Problem; I'm not good at seeing potential problems with martial arts. I didn't even realize the problems with Cobra style until someone pointed it out to me(though I think some of the issues are overstated).

So. So far, I've okayed Throne of Shadow Style, but he also wants to take Violet Biers Shadow Style and Prismatic Arrangement of Creation Form Style. So, are their any big problems with any of the styles? And if so, could someone point them out?

All SMAs are horrible broken in many different ways.

VBoS is alright. Crap to good charm balance is stodgy, in that there are loads of rubbish charms, and loads of horribly broken ones. Also, if he's just dipping for the first charm, slap him in the face.

PAoC is broken. Very.

There are a couple of styles that go "NO, I AM ST NOW", and should be avoided.

[Tavar]

Dammit. And without those, Sid's don't really have any options. Gah. Time to really loot them over, then.

[Guancyto]

I think Sapphire Veils of Passion style is the one that's supposed to be balanced, but it might not be quite in keeping with his theme.

[Tavar]

Hm. Permanent willpower is capped at 10, right? Can someone find where this rule is?

[TheCountAlucard]

Hm. Permanent willpower is capped at 10, right? Can someone find where this rule is?How about the part in the Core book in which they discuss Willpower as a trait, and in their little chart for it, it doesn't go higher than 10 dots?

If that's not enough for you, I'm afraid there's nothing I can do. :smallfrown:

[Fortuna]

I have been tinkering with the fundamental rules of Exalted, and one of the things that I have looked at is the idea of dynamic combos.

These are a few of the ideas that I have been tossing around along those lines. Thoughts?

Lunars can have ‘floating combos’, similar to floating charm slots. These are unrelated to floating charm slots, but may be reassigned as a miscellaneous 3-tick action for three motes per charm, or as a reflexive action for a point of willpower and an additional five motes per charm. A floating combo has a certain ‘capacity’, which limits what charms may be put into it. When reassigning a floating combo the total experience point cost to purchase the combo normally cannot exceed the capacity of the combo. Every three experience points expand the combo’s capacity by two. A single bonus point also expands it by two. All Lunars begin with a single floating combo with a capacity of five. A floating combo requires one week per dot of capacity to train for. Multiple floating combos may be possessed, but activating one does not allow activation of another simultaneously: rather, it disallows it.

Solars and Abyssals are excellent at what they focus on, but aren’t generalists. Therefore, their dynamism is limited largely to their specialties. Solars and Abyssals can spend half again the experience cost of a charm to ‘master’ it, if they know a charm from the same ability with equal or higher minima. By spending a point of willpower, all charms that the Exalt has mastered can be used freely with one another for a single action. Using this ability is incompatible with a normal combo.

Infernals express their power via the Yozis, so their abilities express themselves thematically. The obvious solution is to link it back to the six Excellencies, and say that while acting within the auspices of an Excellency that they possess, they can use dynamic combos of some description. Perhaps make it Essence-based, since everything else is. The obvious answer, again, is to make the Essence rating of the GSP the limit on the number of charms that may be included. Freely combining (Essence) charms is, however, ludicrously overpowered. Instead, make it similar to the Solaroid system. 'Mastering' a charm is cheaper (3 xp, or 4 for unassociated Yozi) and requires no other charms, but you select an Excellency with which to link it, and can only use it for actions that the Excellency could enhance.

Sidereals I refuse to touch with a floating ribbon until the errata comes out. Alchemicals I just can't think of anything.

[TheCountAlucard]

Also, just a thought I'm curious about...

Has anyone actually played a First Age game? :smallconfused: How did it go?

[Lix Lorn]

Sidereals I refuse to touch with a floating ribbon until the errata comes out. Alchemicals I just can't think of anything.
Alchemicals have Arrays, so they're fine anyway.

[Yuki Akuma]

Violet Bier of Sorrows Style and Throne Shadow Style are both CMAs, and are the martial arts styles Sidereals have a natural affinity for - VBoS is a martial art designed for them like their charms, while TS is their natural, innate fighting style. Basically it's Sidereal Hero Style.

The only really balanced SMA is Sapphire Veils of Passion Style (GotMH: Maidens), but it's pretty heavily... uh... 'mature'.


Also, just a thought I'm curious about...

Has anyone actually played a First Age game? :smallconfused: How did it go?

I have not. But I really really want to. :smallfrown:

Is anyone up to STing one?

[Indon]

Also, just a thought I'm curious about...

Has anyone actually played a First Age game? :smallconfused: How did it go?

I ran a fairly short first age game some time back, but the players were all young exalts, so the dynamics weren't as wildly different from vanilla Exalted as they could have been.

It went pretty well. I basically ran it as a half-serious Super Sentai parody with the team being a Quick Response team to problems in Creation.

[SurlySeraph]

Dammit. And without those, Sid's don't really have any options. Gah. Time to really loot them over, then.

Sapphire Veils of Passion is balanced.

Jon Chung did a fix for Prismatic Arrangement of Creation. (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=449982) I haven't read it carefully, but I trust him on balance.

Charcoal March of Spiders: the Form is hax, the pre-form charms are very good but not broken, most of the post-form charms are very powerful but not game-breaking, the capstone could theoretically be used to kill everyone in Creation at the same time.

Obsidian Shards of Infinity: the pre-form Charms are salvageable, if you make Ripple in the Silvered Glass less awesome (add a 1m surcharge per attack, note that you can't attack the same reflection more than once without shattering it so the player doesn't sit there stabbing a puddle until his opponent dies, etc.), and Shattering the Balance needs specifics on what you can actually do with it. The Form and everything above are unsalvageable.

Citrine Poxes of Contagion is bad more because the third Charm makes the first two completely redundant and there are few guidelines on making diseases, than because of its power. It's pretty allowable, especially if the player just takes it for the medicine. Also, keep a tight leash on Convulsive Displacement Infectious Atemi; don't let him use it on vital organs, at least not for important characters. Flare of Invulnerability method is "I have all the soak in the world, but will definitely be losing 5 or more motes every action from now on"; it's less overpowered than it looks, especially in paranoia combat. The Form is excessive, but allowing an Integrity roll to resist the mental influence part makes it allowable.

Reading Borders of Kaleidoscopic Logic gives me a headache, so I can't advise you on it.

Quicksilver Hand of Dreams: the early Charms are perfectly fine, especially if you handwave the annoying "make everyone forget you exist even more than before" part. Not sure about the later ones.

Scarlet Patterned Battlefield: Without Strategy Arrangement is hax. Either require the target to make a Perception + Awareness roll instead of making the attacks automatically unexpected or drop the unexpected attacks part entirely. The Form is annoying to use, and make healing way too cheap and easy; I'd drop everything after the second paragraph, and make all attacks either undodgeable or unblockable so you don't have to check the Virtues of every single thing he attacks. I personally think Singular Escape Strategem is fine, but balance experts frown upon anything that even looks like it overcomes PDs. Great Thinker's Defense Maneuver is basically "Ignore everything with lower Essence unless there are tons of them" + "Free counterattacks against everything." I'd cut it down to lasting [Martial Arts] actions.

[Friv]

I don't have my books on me, but going from memory there are a few things I would like to add to that assessment.


Charcoal March of Spiders: the Form is hax, the pre-form charms are very good but not broken, most of the post-form charms are very powerful but not game-breaking, the capstone could theoretically be used to kill everyone in Creation at the same time.

That's not entirely true. One of the pre-form Charms, can't recall which, does obscene things to your opponents' attacks and defenses, for very few motes. Two of the post-form Charms, Water Spider Bite and the one that turns your target's Essence pool into damage to him, are one-hit kills if they ever land. Oh, and Water Spider Bite is the vehicle for some of the most abusive crap in the game, because you can keep it up forever and use it on godly servants to pick up a few thousand extra free motes.


Reading Borders of Kaleidoscopic Logic gives me a headache, so I can't advise you on it.

IIRC, it's extremely powerful, and a few of the Charms have insta-kill powers, but it's fixable.


Scarlet Patterned Battlefield: Without Strategy Arrangement is hax. Either require the target to make a Perception + Awareness roll instead of making the attacks automatically unexpected or drop the unexpected attacks part entirely. The Form is annoying to use, and make healing way too cheap and easy; I'd drop everything after the second paragraph, and make all attacks either undodgeable or unblockable so you don't have to check the Virtues of every single thing he attacks. I personally think Singular Escape Strategem is fine, but balance experts frown upon anything that even looks like it overcomes PDs. Great Thinker's Defense Maneuver is basically "Ignore everything with lower Essence unless there are tons of them" + "Free counterattacks against everything." I'd cut it down to lasting [Martial Arts] actions.

Singular Escape Strategem is a problem because, as written, it fails to really function. It's built badly. And you missed two of the most problematic Charms in the set - Glance and Stride, which is the best movement Charm in the game as a low-mote Essence 4 no-prerequisite power, and The Empress Lives For All, which allows you to instantly and perfectly kill any person by stabbing their maid in the chest (it moves at Step 10, completely bypassing every form of Charm defense in a hilariously broken and yet legal manner), or murder an entire Realm legion by killing one of its spearmen and spending a few motes and a Willpower.

*EDIT* I feel like Victory of the Cheat also had staggeringly abuseable mechanics, but I don't remember the specifics.

[Mr.Bookworm]

I feel like Victory of the Cheat also had staggeringly abuseable mechanics, but I don't remember the specifics.

For the same reason the last charm in Charcoal March of Spiders is broken, albeit on a lesser scale. It lets you move anyone in your line of sight to anywhere else within your line of sight.


The Form and everything above are unsalvageable.

A good indicator of something being broken is one of the (mechanically-gifted) developers making jokes about it in a sourcebook, yes.

[Tavar]

Huh, scroll of monk is that bad, eh. How bad are the Terrestrial Styles?

[Kris Strife]

Has anyone attempted to stat out Megaman characters as Alchemicals? Megaman, Protoman, Bass, Rush, Treble and all of the Robot Masters.

This came about as someone mentioning a Warstrider made out of wood if you're curious. :smalltongue:

[Friv]

Huh, scroll of monk is that bad, eh. How bad are the Terrestrial Styles?

Variable, but leaning towards the good - certainly, Terrestrial styles overall are better than Celestial or Sidereal. The ones that were adapted from 1e mostly survived the transition. Of the new ones, most are fine - I'm a particular fan of White Veil and Golden Janissary. I remember Seafaring Hero being a bit on the weak side, and Fivefold Shadow is all kinds of weird (it tends towards the design goal of "it's not overpowered if most of your enemies can completely ignore it", so it tends to rock-paper-scissors fights). Even Blade, on the other hand, is a bit of a disaster, with messy book-keeping, useless speedbumps in the middle, and some absurdly overpowered top-tier effects.


This came about as someone mentioning a Warstrider made out of wood if you're curious. :smalltongue:

I designed one of those (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Artifacts:Oakstrider)once.

[Sanguine]

Has anyone attempted to stat out Megaman characters as Alchemicals? Megaman, Protoman, Bass, Rush, Treble and all of the Robot Masters.

This came about as someone mentioning a Warstrider made out of wood if you're curious. :smalltongue:

I remember a while back Drascin was building a character for an Alchemicals game based on one of the Megaman characters. I don't remember which; though I think it was a Moonsilver Caste.

[Drascin]

Moonsilver Caste, based on MMZ Zero, yes. Not exact to original, of course, because plagiarizing is bad, but the inspiration was there and was obvious.

[SurlySeraph]

The SotM Terrestrial styles vary.
Even Blade is ungood. A bunch of its Charms do slightly wonky things to speed and DV refresh that are annoying to keep track of, and it has some ludicrously powerful charms. Gruesome Wood King Revelry and the Azure Crane and Zu Rat Te conclusions are probably the most abusable parts.
Falling Blossom is bloody useless, even for NPCs.
First Pulse, Golden Janissary, Ill Lily, and Night Breeze all seem good. Ill Lily's possibly too strong for a Wood Aspect, because it turns into "poison everything ever always." Jade Mountain's mostly OK, the Form and capstone are a lot more powerful than the rest of its charms.
I've never cared enough about Orgiastic Fugitive, Fivefold Shadow Hand, or Seafaring Hero to read them carefully.
White Veil is powerful, because unexpected attacks are powerful.
Crimson Pentacle Blade is strong, but I don't feel like rereading it to remember how.


That's not entirely true. One of the pre-form Charms, can't recall which, does obscene things to your opponents' attacks and defenses, for very few motes.

I'm not sure which one you mean. Maybe Dance of the Hungry Spider?


Two of the post-form Charms, Water Spider Bite and the one that turns your target's Essence pool into damage to him, are one-hit kills if they ever land. Oh, and Water Spider Bite is the vehicle for some of the most abusive crap in the game, because you can keep it up forever and use it on godly servants to pick up a few thousand extra free motes.

I forgot about the mote-battery part of Water Spider Bite, yeah. Not sure which other one you mean, though Jumping Spider Strike is a one-hit kill on anyone without a Resistance Excellency.


Singular Escape Strategem is a problem because, as written, it fails to really function. It's built badly. And you missed two of the most problematic Charms in the set - Glance and Stride, which is the best movement Charm in the game as a low-mote Essence 4 no-prerequisite power, and The Empress Lives For All, which allows you to instantly and perfectly kill any person by stabbing their maid in the chest (it moves at Step 10, completely bypassing every form of Charm defense in a hilariously broken and yet legal manner), or murder an entire Realm legion by killing one of its spearmen and spending a few motes and a Willpower.

SES is like... well, like many things in Obsidian Shards, the disease-inventing charms in Citrine Poxes, and a fair amount else. It's basically "You can do cool things with this, your DM decides what" with virtually no guidelines.

Is Glance and Stride that bad? The vision distance rules on p. 135 of core make it really suck in anything but broad daylight, and there are plenty of ways to go really fast by Essence 4. I take your point, though.

I thought The Empress Lives For All only worked by killing someone who's officially the leader of a group, and only knocked other people unconscious, so you could knock an army unconscious by punching its leader to death; on closer reading, it works like you said.

I dismissed Victory of the Cheat as another mass combat effect I'm never going to use, but I can see reading it to let you teleport everyone you can see to anywhere else. It's vaguely worded even by SMA standards.

[Tavar]

Is it normal visible range, or can charms change that? Because, if it's with charms, can't some combo see all of creation?

[TheCountAlucard]

Victory of the Cheat
Victory of the Cheat



Sorry, but this is the only thing I can think of when you guys say that...

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd108/ittarius/strongbad.gif

[Psyborg]

Sorry, but this is the only thing I can think of when you guys say that...
*image snipped*
So very glad I'm not the only one. :smallcool:

[Yuki Akuma]

Question:

Would a Person of the Air (winged humans) who Exalted as a Lunar with a wingless spirit shape retain their wings in warform?

[Mr.Bookworm]

Is Glance and Stride that bad? The vision distance rules on p. 135 of core make it really suck in anything but broad daylight, and there are plenty of ways to go really fast by Essence 4. I take your point, though.

I'm not very well-versed on my Exalted op-fu, but I'm positive there's a way to boost your perception checks to an insane level. That's how the infamous Charcoal March of Spiders punch-everyone-in-Creation-in-the-face-at-the-same-time trick works.


I dismissed Victory of the Cheat as another mass combat effect I'm never going to use, but I can see reading it to let you teleport everyone you can see to anywhere else. It's vaguely worded even by SMA standards.

It pretty explicitly says at the end that you can use it in non-mass combat situations. Still very poorly worded, yeah.


Would a Person of the Air (winged humans) who Exalted as a Lunar with a wingless spirit shape retain their wings in warform?

Not unless you pay the 6 points of mutations, no. Sort of like if a vanilla human has a spider spirit shape, they don't automatically gain spider legs in their warform just because they have the shape.

[TheCountAlucard]

Trying to let one my players have a custom artifact. How's this sound?

The Thundering Foecleaver
Constructed by a Solar craftsman in the low First Age, this seven-foot blade of orichalcum is inlaid with blue jade. When the wielder of this grand daiklave successfully strikes an opponent, he can spend one mote to send electrical Essence coursing through his opponent, dealing an additional 8 dice of bashing damage that ignores armor.

What do you think it should be worth? Four dots of Artifact? Five?

[Indon]

Trying to let one my players have a custom artifact. How's this sound?

The Thundering Foecleaver
Constructed by a Solar craftsman in the low First Age, this seven-foot blade of orichalcum is inlaid with blue jade. When the wielder of this grand daiklave successfully strikes an opponent, he can spend one mote to send electrical Essence coursing through his opponent, dealing an additional 8 dice of bashing damage that ignores armor.

What do you think it should be worth? Four dots of Artifact? Five?

5 would be playing it safe, but it wouldn't be too broken as a 4-dot artifact.

1 mote for 8 armor-ignoring damage is a pretty powerful effect, though honestly if I were making the weapon I'd tone down the effect (perhaps to (Essence) damage) and add some other electric-themed powers (ex - you can hold the blade aloft in a storm and spend a point of WP to roll Wits+Melee+Essence, replenishing your successes in motes as lightning strikes the blade) to make it a 4-5-dot artifact. IMO, higher-end artifacts should have a range of themed powers.

Edit: Other secondary power suggestions include,

-You can shoot a bolt of electricity - 3 motes sounds like a good activation price for that.
-You can create a field of electricity about you, increasing your DV and inflicting damage on the next person to strike at you in combat. 3-4 mote cost.
-You can transform into a bolt of lightning in a jump, multiplying your jump distance by 10 and making you traverse the jump's distance instantly. 4-5 mote cost, and this power's really tweakable.

[Tavar]

What are it's normal stats?

Also, remember, artifact activated powers are the same as charm activations.

[Indon]

Also, remember, artifact activated powers are the same as charm activations.

Wait, artifact activated powers count as charm activations?

[TheCountAlucard]

What are it's normal stats?Speed 5, Accuracy +3, Damage +12/4, Defense 1, Rate 3, Mins Str 3, Attune 8, Tags 2, O, P, R. In other words, as per a normal grand daiklave + orichalcum magical material bonus.


Also, remember, artifact activated powers are the same as charm activations.Where's that rule? :smallconfused:

[Indon]

Mind also that higher-power Exalted artifacts tend to have higher attunement costs. The Grand Daiklave's normal attunement cost is pretty high already, but increasing the weapon's attunenent cost could still make a difference on the rating of the artifact.

[Tavar]

Oadenol's Codex, can't give exact page number, AFB at the moment.

[Yuki Akuma]

Oadenol's Codex, page 12...

Says the exact opposite, so I'm not sure where the hell you got that idea.


Artifacts do not count as Charms. Activating an artifact’s powers does not interfere with the use of an Exalt’s Charms, except inasmuch as the actions conflict (one cannot use a simple Charm and a miscellaneous action simultaneously). Likewise, bonus dice gained from an artifact do not count against the limit of dice gained from Charms (see Exalted, p. 185).

[Sanguine]

Question:

Would a Person of the Air (winged humans) who Exalted as a Lunar with a wingless spirit shape retain their wings in warform?


Not unless you pay the 6 points of mutations, no. Sort of like if a vanilla human has a spider spirit shape, they don't automatically gain spider legs in their warform just because they have the shape.

But the character has already paid for the mutation. Why would they need to pay for it a second time? That's neither fair nor fun.

It's ultimately an ST call, but I would say you keep the Wings.

[Morph Bark]

But the character has already paid for the mutation. Why would they need to pay for it a second time? That's neither fair nor fun.

It's ultimately an ST call, but I would say you keep the Wings.

Could get into some yummy yummy abuse though.

[Reynard]

Could get into some yummy yummy abuse though.

Not really. Jumping is easier to abuse, and probably faster than flying.

[Brontes]

Hey, I'm one of the people submitting a character for Tavar's robot/Exalted game. I was thinking of submitting a brawler/martial artist type and I was wondering if there were any good/decent TMAs any of you could recommend. Mind you, I can't use anything from Scroll of the Monk because I lack the book.

[The Rose Dragon]

Hey, I'm one of the people submitting a character for Tavar's robot/Exalted game. I was thinking of submitting a brawler/martial artist type and I was wondering if there were any good/decent TMAs any of you could recommend. Mind you, I can't use anything from Scroll of the Monk because I lack the book.

Gee, you just invalidated more than half the available Terrestrial Martial Arts.

There is Black Tide Style, Shadow Hunter Style and Five-Dragon Style that are generally usable (though Black Tide Style is not very good if you cannot breathe underwater).

[Tavar]

You might try some homebrew ones. Considering you're all mortals, there won't be too many charms.

[Brontes]

Yeah alright, it's less than 16 bucks. Is First Pulse any good? I'm trying to do a smashfist/God Kicking boot-style martial art.

[Yuki Akuma]

The only problem I have with First Pulse Style is that the charm names don't really fit the flavour.

It should be stuff like "Fist-In-Crotch Method" or "Hitting-Them-While-They're-Down Prana".

[The Rose Dragon]

Yeah alright, it's less than 16 bucks. Is First Pulse any good? I'm trying to do a smashfist/God Kicking boot-style martial art.

First Pulse does not consider smashfists as form weapons, mind you.

[Brontes]

Is it because smashfists are the artifact version of the Gauntlet or is it because First Pulse doesn't use artifact versions of anything?

[The Rose Dragon]

Is it because smashfists are the artifact version of the Gauntlet or is it because First Pulse doesn't use artifact versions of anything?

It allows artifact weapons, just not smashfists (or fighting gauntlets, for that matter).

[Sanguine]

It allows artifact weapons, just not smashfists (or fighting gauntlets, for that matter).

God Kicking Boots work with it though.

[Brontes]

Excellent, I figured he'd be slightly bird-like, and I think God Kicking Boots fits that motif.

[Indon]

So, I've been reading in-depth through the Sidereals book. Looking at the section of Arcane Fate, am I right in interpreting that tattooed Lunars are 100% immune to it?

[TheCountAlucard]

So, I've been reading in-depth through the Sidereals book. Looking at the section of Arcane Fate, am I right in interpreting that tattooed Lunars are 100% immune to it?Not at all - Lunars are only immune to Shaping that affects their bodies.

[Reynard]

Solars can just IPP it away if they know about it, while I've always treated lunar tattoos as protecting their minds as well.

Otherwise they are utterly at useless at Fae-murdering and wyld-wandering, two things which they are (in Fluff) very good at.

[senrath]

So, I've been reading in-depth through the Sidereals book. Looking at the section of Arcane Fate, am I right in interpreting that tattooed Lunars are 100% immune to it?


Not at all - Lunars are only immune to Shaping that affects their bodies.

For clarification, since this isn't clear if you just read the Lunars book, originally the tattoos protected them against both. It was later changed so that it only protected their bodies.

[Sanguine]

Not at all - Lunars are only immune to Shaping that affects their bodies.

Which interestingly could be interpreted to mean that they still run the risk of going crazy from changing into human forms.

[Tavar]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the wyld taint actually isn't a shaping effect, the defense against shaping is just an useful side effect.

Also, Lunars do have a defense against shaping effects. They just didn't put it in MoEP:Lunars. Because, you know, the quota on how much Lunars need to be shafted.

[Yuki Akuma]

It's in Dreams of the First Age - they have a +2 to defense values and roll-offs I think.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Solars can just IPP it away if they know about it,

No. No they can't. Arcane Fate isn't directly harmful to the Solar, so Integrity-Protecting Prana doesn't apply to it. IPP does have limits, contrary to popular belief.

[Yuki Akuma]

They do have ways to prevent it, just so you know. But it either requires very strange motivations or very high Essence.

[Indon]

For clarification, since this isn't clear if you just read the Lunars book, originally the tattoos protected them against both. It was later changed so that it only protected their bodies.

Wait, so, is this in-character, or a 1st->2nd edition change? If the former, why would the Lunars have downgraded their own tattoos?


It's in Dreams of the First Age - they have a +2 to defense values and roll-offs I think.

Ah, so Lunars would be resistant to the effect of Arcane Fate... probably in the form of bonus dice.

[SurlySeraph]

Neither, it's an errata thing. MoEP: Lunars made it sound like the tattoos also protected their mind, Scroll of Errata indicated otherwise.

[Indon]

Neither, it's an errata thing. MoEP: Lunars made it sound like the tattoos also protected their mind, Scroll of Errata indicated otherwise.

Ah. I'll just not use that bit of errata.

[SurlySeraph]

I've made progress in my ongoing efforts to throw the Omphalos. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10617451&postcount=1460)

If the Lunar Third Excellency can break the dice limits on Charms, which I strongly doubt, I think I've found a way to do it. If not, I still need another 4,778, but because of the amount of multiplying involved I only really need either +80 to Strength or +239 to Athletics.
Start off with an Essence 10 Lunar who has eaten a Strength 30 behemoth such as Vodak; the only thing with more than Strength 30 I've been able to find has its Strength given as "immeasurable," which would be kinda cheating for this exercise.
Now, if I figured out what can stack right, you add on +100 from God-Beast Transcendence, +10 Emperor Ox Expansion, +10 Jade Mountain Form, +10 Body of War Meditation, +6 Prosthetics of Clockwork Elegance, +5 Deadly Transformation Armor, +3 Attribute Specialty, +1 Legendary Strength, +1 Strong Back, +1 Titan of the Streets, +1 Impossible Attribute Improvement, +1 Devastating Ogre Enhancement, for 179. The Full Moon anima power + Tearing Claw Atemi triples it, then the Third Excellency doubles it, for 1074 from strength alone.
If the 3rd Excellency doesn't work that way, you can add +20 from the Second Excellency with Relentless Lunar Fury before tripling, for a final 597.

Then a Sidereal using the charm Reliant Soul Infiltration from Kaleidoscopic Border of Logic Style comes along and possesses our Lunar. Between them, helpers and equipment, and Charms the Sid can have up already, Athletics goes to: +10 base Athletics, +10 from Beauty is in the Eye (another KBoL Style charm), +10 bonus successes from Invisible Motion (an Athletics charms) +10 from an Artifact, + 5 Virtue channel, + 5 Cooperation, + 3 Stunt, +3 Eye of the First Goat, +3 Double-Jointed, +2 Jewel of Youthful Suppleness. This gives you 1,135 if the 3rd Excellency works that way, 658 if it doesn't. Either way, since the Sid has access to the Lunar's charms and abilities, he can then use Yeddim's-Back Method for another doubling, to either 2,270 or 1,316. Finally, he uses Strength of the Mast, the Resplendency that inspired this in the first place, to multiply that by 10 for either 22,700 or 13,160 on his final Feat of Strength.

I don't have the Black and White Treatises, but casting Unity of the Closed Fist for +5 Strength (from 5 participants) might help, and might allow the Sidereal to add in his Athletics Excellency too. And I don't have Alchemicals, but having one around or attaching him into said Unity of the Closed Fist and having him use Synergy-Promoting Upgrade (to increase the possible Cooperation bonus), Hydraulic Musculature Reinforcement (for more Strength), Clockwork Strength Perfection Nodes, Transpuissant Strength Upgrade, etc. might help too. Also using Birth of the Perfect Ego Juggernaut to give the Lunar +10 bonus successes.

[Teln]

Nitpick: UotCF gives the resulting amalgam the highest Strength score possessed by any member of the group, plus one dot for each additional participant. Total bonus of +4.

[Friv]

Alright, I'll go pull out my book. Lessee...


I'm not sure which one you mean. Maybe Dance of the Hungry Spider?

I think that may have been it, but I'd forgotten that it could only be used once per action for its five actions, so it's probably not as bad as I remembered. Alternately, I may have been thinking of Nest of Living Strands, which uses Martial Arts (so you can boost it), and applies a -(successes) penalty to all physical actions and defenses anyone within 50 yards of you takes. Stacking every action. So if you have your scene-length boosts up, you can easily apply a -10 external penalty to all of your enemies, and then increase it by a further -10 per action.


I forgot about the mote-battery part of Water Spider Bite, yeah. Not sure which other one you mean, though Jumping Spider Strike is a one-hit kill on anyone without a Resistance Excellency.

It turns out I was thinking of Maw of Dripping Venom, which is pre-form. Spend 5 motes and hit your target, and he loses 5 personal motes per action for (damage dice) actions, and if he ever hits 0 he falls into a coma and loses the fight. Also, while he is in a coma, you can eat his soul.

Given that personal mote pools are (a) tiny and (b) tend to be spent early in fights, this Charm can easily and quickly slaughter anyone you hit.

Jumping Spider Strike and Pattern Spider Bite are both also one-hit kills, but they're really expensive, so within the framework of Exalted combat, they are sadly balanced.


Is Glance and Stride that bad? The vision distance rules on p. 135 of core make it really suck in anything but broad daylight, and there are plenty of ways to go really fast by Essence 4. I take your point, though.

There are, but they almost always require heavy investment, whereas this requires nothing. It's also astonishingly few motes to use - compare to sorcerous teleportation effects, or any Solar Athletics effect. And yeah, it's not as powerful at night - unless you have any sort of magic to give you clear vision, which is really easy to get ahold of.


I dismissed Victory of the Cheat as another mass combat effect I'm never going to use, but I can see reading it to let you teleport everyone you can see to anywhere else. It's vaguely worded even by SMA standards.
Victory of the Cheat can actually end mass combat instantly in your favor, that's how powerful it is. You can teleport the leaders of every enemy unit to the center of your units, where they get cut to shreds by your troops. Alternately, you could just scatter each of their units across a ten-mile area, turning each military force into a horde of solo units that are overwhelmed and destroyed one at a time as your functional unit rides across them. And while Essence-users can resist it, their armies can't.

And as a side flaw, if the enemy army is made up primarily of Essence users, the rules call for a roll-off of you against every single enemy soldier, one at a time. :smalleek:

Oh, and I forgot Without Strategy Arrangement, which is free perfectly unexpected attacks for a scene, plus avoiding a lot of the attacks coming your way, inexpensively.

[Tengu_temp]

EDIT: And now that I think about it, with that Warstrider fix (including the health levels), a Chosen of Serenity who uses Lover's Oath to marry a Royal Warstrider with a maxed AI would do alright. 15 extra motes (if you use the strider's motes to pay for attunement), 10 extra Willpower (5 if you use the chargen errata), and 30 extra health levels. It'd cost 13 background points, but that's worth it.


And now we know why Setsuna from Gundam 00 was so hax.

[senrath]

So, I'm trying to homebrew up a sword and sheath combo artifact, and here's what I've come up with. I'd like some feedback on it.

http://pastebin.com/bevFbiZq

[Reynard]

So. Solar Stealth.

Has anyone found, homebrew or otherwise, and Solar Stealth charm that either works and/or is actually stealthy?

I know of two published ones, Invisible Statue Spirit and (that city one from RotSE that I can't remember).

But no others.

Also, there is this (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Charms:Blinding_Solar_Corona) hilariously broken but surprisingly fitting homebrew Charm, which is the epitome of Solar Stealth's current philosophy.

I suppose the real issue is "How do you make stealth charms for Exalts who are often seen about being ALL ABOUT THE GLOW"

But Solars real theme is being beyond the pinnacle of human capabilities. They do things turned up to 11, through brute force and skill. But their charms for Stealth are shouting IGNORE ME with the entire force of their being, which doesn't seem to be appropriate.

[golentan]

Hmm. I have a question about Puissance Mimicry Intuition. I know it can only be activated when Nemesis Self is up, and the duration is "Until Calibration"

What I'm wondering is whether the two interact. If I Mimic someone's charms and then decide I'm sick of being their nemesis, do I still know their charms until next calibration? Could I be a "Mocking Student" for one scene and walk away with a new charm (which it seems unless I'm misreading I bypass training time for learning permanently as a fiend if I choose to shell out the XP)?

[Indon]

But their charms for Stealth are shouting IGNORE ME with the entire force of their being, which doesn't seem to be appropriate.

Honestly, this seems like a really awesome Solar stealth charm. Doesn't make you actually invisible at all - in fact, is Obvious and flares your anima. But it forces people to ignore you as an unnatural mental influence!


Hmm. I have a question about Puissance Mimicry Intuition. I know it can only be activated when Nemesis Self is up, and the duration is "Until Calibration"

What I'm wondering is whether the two interact. If I Mimic someone's charms and then decide I'm sick of being their nemesis, do I still know their charms until next calibration? Could I be a "Mocking Student" for one scene and walk away with a new charm (which it seems unless I'm misreading I bypass training time for learning permanently as a fiend if I choose to shell out the XP)?

Charms with a duration require you to keep the essence cost committed for the duration. You can cancel the charm by uncommitting the essence. If the charm's cost is reasonable, I'd rule you could keep it up until Calibration.

[golentan]

Not the question. The question is can I deactivate the charm which needs to be activated (Nemesis Self) in order to use my goal charm (Puissance Mimicry) without losing the latter? Does it only check at activation or do I lose everything when I stop being a nemesis?

[tonberrian]

Really, I think that, while hilarious, shouting IGNORE MEEE! and having it work should be a MALFEAS effect, because that's just how the Yozi king rolls. He also needs effects for shouting LOVE MEEE!, FEAR MEEE!, and DANCE WITH MEEE!, too.

[Jokasti]

What are some sources for Fae fluff/crunch besides GWM?

[Teln]

CoCD: The Wyld has some useful tidbits--and by "useful tidbits" I mean a three-course meal.

[Reynard]

Honestly, this seems like a really awesome Solar stealth charm. Doesn't make you actually invisible at all - in fact, is Obvious and flares your anima. But it forces people to ignore you as an unnatural mental influence!
As Jok points out, this is far more Malfean than it is Solar.

I mean, you can near-completely replicate the effects of Solar Stealth with a combination of solar Presence and Solar Performance.

I just want to see more than two stealth charms that make you really really good at being stealthy, as Solar Stealth should work.

[Lord Raziere]

but its more hilarious, unique and awesome this way. You don't need actual stealth, you can just convince everyone that you aren't there, so there is no need to be concerned about you, therefore why need stealth when people are convinced that your so stealthy that your not there?

I mean just imagine:
DB 1: I saw an Anathema that was never there today, nothing to worry about.
DB 2: What do you mean you saw an Anathema that wasn't there?
DB 1: I saw him, he just wasn't there, a hallucination y'know.
DB 2: Hm. the work must be getting you, maybe you should take a vacation?
DB 1: Yea sounds like a good idea, sorry for bothering about that whole "Anathema that wasn't there" nonsense.
DB 2: don't worry about it, stress and boredom gets the best of us sooner or later.
DB 1: cya
Db 2: bye.

[Dragnar]

It's hilarious. It's unique. It's... not really awesome at all. It invalidates how solars are supposed to work, through mastery of mundane things. Solars master things mortals do. But when they try to be sneaky, they do so by NOT being stealthy at all? It's... really, really stupid. Plus, it's the most boring method of being stealthy I've ever heard. unique =/= good.

[Volthawk]

So, I've been looking at Power Armour and thinking about how mortals can use it, and I had a thought. The Enlightened Essence merit gives motes to mortals. At Essence 1, they get 10 motes, which is enough for Celestial Battle Armour. If they had attuned to a sufficient hearthstone, doesn't that mean a mortal can use Celestial Battle Armour? Of course, they would need to raise their Essence if they wanted to be able to use the armour's features.

EDIT: Also, wouldn't Essence-Lending Method work as well (don't see a clause preventing it from benefiting mortals)?

[Xefas]

Reynard is right, in that Solars should have the capacity to be truly stealthy. We have the Night Caste anima as a great example of Solars being willing to hide their glory for the purposes of practicality. While the whole "I'm a big damn Sun" theme is nice and all, it's not the only one, and some players (and realistically, some Solars) are going to want to explore something else.

How about a charm that just removes that whole "fades instantly if you move" clause of Invisible Status Spirit (but keeping the "if you fight" part - or perhaps changing it to "if you are in battle for more than 1 tick", to allow stealth-eliminating guards and such)?

EDIT: I still like the "Big Damn Sun" theme just fine, though. And I don't think the "No, what you think is cool is wrongbadfun" attitude is very helpful, guys. Do you really wanna be like the official forums here?

[Yuki Akuma]

So, I've been looking at Power Armour and thinking about how mortals can use it, and I had a thought. The Enlightened Essence merit gives motes to mortals. At Essence 1, they get 10 motes, which is enough for Celestial Battle Armour. If they had attuned to a sufficient hearthstone, doesn't that mean a mortal can use Celestial Battle Armour? Of course, they would need to raise their Essence if they wanted to be able to use the armour's features.

EDIT: Also, wouldn't Essence-Lending Method work as well (don't see a clause preventing it from benefiting mortals)?

Yes. Enlightened mortals can attune Celestial Battle Armour just fine.

They can't get magical material bonuses though.

[tonberrian]

As Jok points out

I said that. I'm not Jokasti. I don't even look like Jokasti. I have a cute ponytar for an avatar, and Jokasti has ... whoever that is.For the moment. The Herd is watching, Jokasti.

[Reynard]

I said that. I'm not Jokasti. I don't even look like Jokasti. I have a cute ponytar for an avatar, and Jokasti has ... whoever that is.For the moment. The Herd is watching, Jokasti.

I am sorry. My body is comprised almost entirely of ache and my face currently contains mostly mucus.

[Indon]

Reynard is right, in that Solars should have the capacity to be truly stealthy. We have the Night Caste anima as a great example of Solars being willing to hide their glory for the purposes of practicality. While the whole "I'm a big damn Sun" theme is nice and all, it's not the only one, and some players (and realistically, some Solars) are going to want to explore something else.

True, I hadn't thought of the conflict between "Solars are good at things mortals do," and "Solars are the Mighty Lords of Creation".

I'd reconcile that in a game by saying that the in-book Solar Stealth tree was designed in the First Age - when none of the Night caste really thought to rely heavily on stealth charms, because why bother, just use an Excellency until you're ready to Kill Them In The Face.

From there, you just develop new charm trees entirely for the Solars, based around things like bending light, setting up camouflage, suppressing light and sound (an effect similar to the D&D spell "Darkness" would be interesting here, I think), and so forth. I'd work with the player if I had any interested in the prospect.

[tonberrian]

I am sorry. My body is comprised almost entirely of ache and my face currently contains mostly mucus.

That is no excuse whatsoever. You have impugned my honor. The only recourse is to fight with knives.

:smalltongue:

[Jokasti]

CoCD: The Wyld has some useful tidbits--and by "useful tidbits" I mean a three-course meal.
*facepalm* Yeah, I should have thunk a that. Thanks.


I said that. I'm not Jokasti. I don't even look like Jokasti. I have a cute ponytar for an avatar, and Jokasti has ... whoever that is.For the moment. The Herd is watching, Jokasti.
It's Molly the Witch, heathen! I'll probably draw myself a ponytar soon though. I still haven't watched enough of the Glorious Light.

[gareth]

I'm interested in playing an elightened mortal, and I'm wondering whether to buy the Scroll of Heroes. It seems like the obvious source for rules on enlightenment, but it also has a terrible reputation. Bad enough that I'm considering just going with a Demon-Blood using the Infernals book, even if that doesn't quite fit my concept. Any thoughts?

[tonberrian]

It's Molly the Witch, heathen!

That is remarkably unhelpful for a google search.

[Reynard]

I'm interested in playing an elightened mortal, and I'm wondering whether to buy the Scroll of Heroes. It seems like the obvious source for rules on enlightenment, but it also has a terrible reputation. Bad enough that I'm considering just going with a Demon-Blood using the Infernals book, even if that doesn't quite fit my concept. Any thoughts?

Playing an enlightened mortal in what sort of game?

You can kinda play well with DBs, and I know someone who played an EMortal who beat up a DB, but eventually they flare their anima and you become ash.

You really can't last long in Celestial Exalt games. True, you lost the Mortal reflexive charm Die Horribly, but you'll still die horribly. Your best hope their would be to consider trying to Exalt as a Celestial, or dying and exalting as Abyssal.

[Jokasti]

That is remarkably unhelpful for a google search.
She's from Bibliography (http://bibliography.gaijinmanga.com/main.php?ch=7&pg=16#image). Read it.

[SurlySeraph]

I'm interested in playing an elightened mortal, and I'm wondering whether to buy the Scroll of Heroes. It seems like the obvious source for rules on enlightenment, but it also has a terrible reputation. Bad enough that I'm considering just going with a Demon-Blood using the Infernals book, even if that doesn't quite fit my concept. Any thoughts?

Honestly? Don't. There's a fix here (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/720681/Exalted_Mods/GB_Char_Gen.pdf) that includes information on some of the more useful things from SoH,like "Getting full enlightened essence costs 7 BP." Then use the rules in the core book and buy some Terrestrial Circle Sorcery, or Terrestrial Martial Arts if you want to fight face-to-face with things that can splatter you instead of trying to out-plan them, and call it a day. Some Thaumaturgy and mutations (especially summoning-related and healing-related things) can also be very helpful.

[Jokasti]

Updated
Currently Recruiting Games:
Morph Bark's thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189363)
Princes of the Sky (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187948)
Super Spies (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192422)
Alucard's Game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191590)
Age of Iron (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190716)
Flowing Silver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191401)
Giant Robots (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191971)

[Kyeudo]

Yes. Enlightened mortals can attune Celestial Battle Armour just fine.


IIRC, the write up actually specifies that only Celestial Exalted can use Celestial Battle Armor. That's why there are no Jade versions.

[Volthawk]

IIRC, the write up actually specifies that only Celestial Exalted can use Celestial Battle Armor. That's why there are no Jade versions.

Doesn't say only Celestials can use it, just that it was made for Celestials.

[Kyeudo]

Doesn't say only Celestials can use it, just that it was made for Celestials.

I remember some line about Terrestrial Essence being insufficient to power Celestial Battle Armor.

[Reynard]

I remember some line about Terrestrial Essence being insufficient to power Celestial Battle Armor.
Not that it matters, because the Armour of the Immaculate Dragons is, well, better.

[Mr.Bookworm]

I remember some line about Terrestrial Essence being insufficient to power Celestial Battle Armor.


Terrestrial animas are not sufficiently powerful to use this armor.

Yep, you're right. Presumably this means that a non-Exalted couldn't use it at all.

[gareth]

Honestly? Don't. There's a fix here that includes information on some of the more useful things from SoH,like "Getting full enlightened essence costs 7 BP."

Thanks for the link. Let's say that this character should be viable in a low-Essence Dragon-Blooded game. Any lower-powered game is unlikely to be run, and anything higher would just squish him. So what should he get? I have the Dragon-Blooded book, with its two Terrestrial Martial Arts styles. Is that enough, or is it worth getting Scroll of Monk for some more Terrestrial options?
The other options are Sorcery and Necromancy. I assume that getting both is a bad idea - it would stretch his points too thin and there's no synergy between them. And Sorcery is a better choice than Necromancy at these low levels, because it's less specialised. So what are some good Terrrestrial spells, bearing in mind the limitations of an enlightened mortal?

[Reynard]

The other options are Sorcery and Necromancy. I assume that getting both is a bad idea - it would stretch his points too thin and there's no synergy between them. And Sorcery is a better choice than Necromancy at these low levels, because it's less specialised. So what are some good Terrrestrial spells, bearing in mind the limitations of an enlightened mortal?

None of them.

Get Thaumaturge degrees instead. Thaumaturgy is much much better than sorcery.

[Sanguine]

Also as a point of clarification an Enlightened Mortal can't learn both Sorcery and Necromancy. It's one or the other.

[gareth]

Also as a point of clarification an Enlightened Mortal can't learn both Sorcery and Necromancy. It's one or the other.

Thanks, I didn't know that.


None of them.
Get Thaumaturge degrees instead. Thaumaturgy is much much better than sorcery.

What about travel spells? Do they just cost too many motes to be worth it?

[Sanguine]

Thanks, I didn't know that.



What about travel spells? Do they just cost too many motes to be worth it?

Most of the good travel spells are Celestial or Solar circle and thus out of the reach of a mortal.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Most of the good travel spells are Celestial or Solar circle and thus out of the reach of a mortal.

Well, yes, but that's not the same at all as there being no travel spells. Most of the staples of Exalted travel are at the Terrestrial level. Conjuring the Azure Chariot is probably the best for long-distance travel (2000 miles in a day), but Stormwind Rider, Cirrus Skiff, Flight of Separation, and Calling the Wind's Kiss are all travel spells at the Terrestrial level. Demon of the First Circle and Summon Elemental are also both incredibly versatile spells that can be used for travel.

[The_Snark]

Enlightened mortal sorcerers should stay away from Demon of the First Circle, though. It doesn't work properly for them.

[Yuki Akuma]

Summon Elemental might be dangerous unless they already made arrangements with the elemental, too.

[Morph Bark]

Say, who can all learn Sidereal Martial Arts? Is it just Sidereals, or can DBs or other Celestial Exalted also learn them through some way or another? (I've only heard and read a little about them, dunno details yet, dun got the right book yet, but am interested.)

[Jokasti]

Say, who can all learn Sidereal Martial Arts? Is it just Sidereals, or can DBs or other Celestial Exalted also learn them through some way or another? (I've only heard and read a little about them, dunno details yet, dun got the right book yet, but am interested.)

Sidereals and Solaroids, I believe. I think Lunars can do it if they go Akuma. You pretty much need a high Essence Sidereal Tutor, though, and to be high Essence yourself, so Solaroids might have a hard time meeting some of the Essence Requirements.

[tonberrian]

Sidereals can learn SMA, obviously. Solars and Abyssals can both learn SMA from a Sidereal (and it has to be a Sidereal who teaches them). The Lunars might have been able to learn them in the first age, but they certainly can't now.

In addition, Lunar Akuma can learn them the same way as Solars, and Solar Akuma can learn them from any teacher. Anyone else explicitly can't use them, and blow up if they try.

[Sanguine]

Sidereals and Solaroids, I believe. I think Lunars can do it if they go Akuma. You pretty much need a high Essence Sidereal Tutor, though, and to be high Essence yourself, so Solaroids might have a hard time meeting some of the Essence Requirements.

Actually not all Solaroids can learn Sidereal Martial Arts, Green Sun Princes can't. Also not all Sidereal Martial Art's charms are high Essence for instance Prismatic Arrangement of Creation Style is almost (if not) entirely in the Essence 4-5 range.

[Jokasti]

Actually not all Solaroids can learn Sidereal Martial Arts, Green Sun Princes can't. Also not all Sidereal Martial Art's charms are high Essence for instance Prismatic Arrangement of Creation Style is almost (if not) entirely in the Essence 4-5 range.

Hence the "pretty much" need and not "need" :smallbiggrin:
Most SMA's have 5+ Essence charms though. Why can't Infernals learn SMA?

[tonberrian]

Hence the "pretty much" need and not "need" :smallbiggrin:
Most SMA's have 5+ Essence charms though. Why can't Infernals learn SMA?

Because the Ebon Dragon is a ****.

[Kyeudo]

Hence the "pretty much" need and not "need" :smallbiggrin:
Most SMA's have 5+ Essence charms though. Why can't Infernals learn SMA?

Because pretty much any Infernal Combat Charm can apply to a punch, while only Martial Arts Charms can apply to Martial Arts attacks.

[Xefas]

Why can't Infernals learn SMA?

The in-setting reason is that by taking on the themes of the Yozi, they sever their natural link to Creation's principles, from which the various SMAs are born. (pg 103 of the Manual of Exalted Power: Infernals)

[senrath]

Not to mention the Yozi don't exactly want their minions to be wielding that much power.

Also, the artifact I posted looking for feedback for seems to have been missed, so here it is again:
Artifact 5: The Blade and Sheath of the Loving Mother

The Blade of the Loving Mother is a fearsome weapon once wielded by a Solar who's name has since been lost to time, just as she herself was lost when the Dragon Beyond the World set upon the unit she commanded and scattered them to the four winds.

The blade itself is a ornately wrought Short Orichalcum Daiklave that looks as though someone wrapped a rose vine around a standard daiklave. On one side of the blade itself is inscribed the Scripture of the One-Handed Maiden. The lettering is Old Realm, and formed of Starmetal.

The sheathe is also made of Orichalcum and carries the Scripture of the Maiden at War, also inscribed with Starmetal.


Both the blade and the sheath can be used as weapons with no special properties beyond their raw stats, though their true power can only be used when both are attuned to by the same person. In this event the total attunement cost for both blade and sheath are halved (to 8 motes total).

The Blade of the Loving Mother:
Speed: 4 | Damage +6L | Accuracy +5 | Defense +3 | Rate 3 | Str Rating: 1 | Tags: P | Attune 8
Onslaught penalties inflicted by attacks with the Blade of the Loving Mother are doubled, and an additional die of post-soak damage is added per two points of onslaught penalties inflicted.

The Sheath of the Loving Mother:
Speed: 6 | Damage +2B | Accuracy +3 | Defense +5 | Rate 1 | Str Rating: 1 | Tags: - | Attune 8
By taking the sheath in hand and spending 5 motes of essence, the wielder of the sheath can project a dazzling light that blinds her foes. This imposes an internal penalty equal to the wielder's Essence against all attacks against her that originate within 100 yards, whether her DV applies to such an attack or not. This effect does not apply to blind attackers, or attackers that avert their gaze from the wielder. For an additional 5m, 1wp the wielder can extend this protection to up to (Essence x 2) others, provided they all stay within 100 yards of the wielder. The light (and effect) cease instantly if the wielder ceases to hold the sheath for any reason.

[Xefas]

Not to mention the Yozi don't exactly want their minions to be wielding that much power.

I think that if the Ebon Dragon could have given the Infernals the power to use SMA, he would have. After all, he specifically gave them the power to tap into their own past lives for a little boost, and that's at the risk of them reverting to First Age Solar killing machines - and not the good kind of killing machine that wants to kill innocents. The bad kind of killing machine whose motives are completely antithetical to your own and might possibly remember how big of a **** the Yozi are.

His whole idea was to make them burn as brightly as possible (i.e. give them as much power as possible), but never live past 150. And if his plan actually worked as intended (which obviously, he thinks it will), the ability to get SMA wouldn't be that big of a deal anyway.

[Indon]

Can Terrestrial Akuma learn SMA's the same way normal Terrestrials can use CMA's?

[Reynard]

Can Terrestrial Akuma learn SMA's the same way normal Terrestrials can use CMA's?

No. They still have the explodey problem.

[Sanguine]

No. They still have the explodey problem.

But they can learn CMA's without enlightenment Charms and don't need to make rolls to enter a Celestial Form. Though it would be cool if Akuma who knew the enlightenment Charms could learn SMA's.

[golentan]

I don't know. It seems fairly clear to me from looking at the lists of who can and can't that primordial exalted aren't on there (Celestial Akuma kind of excepted. Kind of). Taking a terrestrial (already empowered with some primordial mojo) and making them more primordial doesn't seem like a recipe for success.

[Reynard]

The only reasons I could see for a Solar taking the jump into Akumaism is...

Good Stealth Charms (via Adorjan's tree)?
Access to one Primordial's charms without needing to be an Eclipse and pay 16xp per pop?

And in return... they get a crippling Urge and complete loss of free will.

[Sanguine]

The only reasons I could see for a Solar taking the jump into Akumaism is...

Good Stealth Charms (via Adorjan's tree)?
Access to one Primordial's charms without needing to be an Eclipse and pay 16xp per pop?

And in return... they get a crippling Urge and complete loss of free will.

Primordial Principle Emulation gives them both of those except the 16 xp bit. Man, I hate that Charm. Though being an Akuma also let's you buy Demon Charms, increases Attribute and Ability (and possibly Essence) maximums by 1, gives you a bunch of xp you can spend immediately as a training effect, and let's you mess around with your traits including acquiring mutations. Though admittedly the Yozi not the character does the messing about.

[golentan]

Free will isn't all you people crack it up to be. You seem to be forgetting that game balance considerations are probably the last thing a potential akuma in the celestial+ range considers when weighing the pros and cons.

[The Rose Dragon]

Most SMA's have 5+ Essence charms though. Why can't Infernals learn SMA?

Because they are not Ability-based. Only Ability-based Exalted get to go beyond their station on the Perfected Lotus.

EDIT: Also, Lunar akuma can only learn Sidereal Martial Arts if they already favor Martial Arts (which is about 97% of Lunars, but still).

[Mr.Bookworm]

The only reasons I could see for a Solar taking the jump into Akumaism is....

From what we hear about Solar akumaism, I would be inclined to say that it's mostly not really about the actual slight power gain.

Remembering, being an Akuma isn't just a stat boost, it's also you becoming one of Hell's elite (which also has a stat, but I digress). I can see a young Solar being awfully tempted by some of what the Yozis offer.

Being an Akuma is to study leadership at the feet of Malfeas, dickery at the hands of the Ebon Dragon, love at the mercy of Adorjan. It's access to the knowledge of the Creators, the Primordials that laid down the foundations of Creation before time began. Libraries with every book ever written, and every book that will never be written. Dojos that teach martial arts not seen since the light of Ligier shined on Creation.

And all you have to do is make that deal. Maybe you don't care about what will happen. Maybe you think you can outwit the Yozis. Maybe you think they're trapped, impotent in their prison, and your "servitude" will be a farce.

It only takes a few bad decisions and the right opportunity to become an Akuma. Bad decisions aren't in short supply among the Exalted. And the Yozis are right there. The gods themselves ensured that they would always be able to get to them.

[Indon]

The only reasons I could see for a Solar taking the jump into Akumaism is...

...the Great Curse makes them crazy?

[Lord Raziere]

...the Great Curse makes them crazy?

Ebon Dragon: Exactly as planned.

[golentan]

Ebon Dragon: Exactly as planned.

Cont: Now to sabotage myself so that none of my friends can benefit...

[Reynard]

Cont: Now to sabotage myself so that none of my friends can benefit...

Cont: And so that neither can I. Hahaha I am genius.

[TheCountAlucard]

You know, there are times when I've wondered if the Ebon Dragon ever just said, "You know, in retrospect, perhaps inventing the concept of betrayal may not have been the best idea." :smallamused:

[golentan]

I figured that was taken as read with the "sabotage myself" bit.

And he is a genius. A stupid, stupid, int 0 genius.

Titans: In case you were wondering whether there was a step in both directions from Savants with developmental disabilities.

[Reynard]

You know, there are times when I've wondered if the Ebon Dragon ever just said, "You know, in retrospect, perhaps inventing the concept of betrayal may not have been the best idea." :smallamused:

Isn't it Kimberry who's all about betrayal and such?

Ebon Dragon is just a ****.

[Indon]

I've been coming to view the Ebon Dragon as a study in ends v. means: His means are magnificent, but the ends he puts them to are self-destructive (also, destructive to everything else).

[Teln]

Isn't it Kimberry who's all about betrayal and such?

From what I've seen she's more "Caustic Jewish Grandmother".

[Indon]

From what I've seen she's more "Caustic Jewish Grandmother".

The pun, it burns!

[Mikal]

Trying to let one my players have a custom artifact. How's this sound?

The Thundering Foecleaver
Constructed by a Solar craftsman in the low First Age, this seven-foot blade of orichalcum is inlaid with blue jade. When the wielder of this grand daiklave successfully strikes an opponent, he can spend one mote to send electrical Essence coursing through his opponent, dealing an additional 8 dice of bashing damage that ignores armor.

What do you think it should be worth? Four dots of Artifact? Five?

I'd make it a 4. A low tier 4 at that since it's just adding Bashing that ignores armor.

[Indon]

I'd make it a 4. A low tier 4 at that since it's just adding Bashing that ignores armor.

You know, bringing this up again makes me think of an adjudication question.

How do you guys deal with multiple damage sources/types (particularly damage that behaves differently) in a single attack? Do you guys run it so that an attack can deal ping damage for each damage source, or do you try to lump it all together and apply soak/hardness to it once?

I'd be very surprised if WW wrote any guidance on that.

[Mikal]

Yes. Enlightened mortals can attune Celestial Battle Armour just fine.

They can't get magical material bonuses though.

Wrong. It stipulates only Celestial exalts are able to use Celestial Battle Armor.
They also couldn't use Immaculate Dragon Armor unless essence 2, since the attune cost for non-dragon-bloods is over 10.

They can use armor of the unseen assassin tho!



You know, bringing this up again makes me think of an adjudication question.

How do you guys deal with multiple damage sources/types (particularly damage that behaves differently) in a single attack? Do you guys run it so that an attack can deal ping damage for each damage source, or do you try to lump it all together and apply soak/hardness to it once?

I'd be very surprised if WW wrote any guidance on that.

It's generally kinda bad to mix bashing and lethal like that cause of the way the system works.
I'd have each apply separately for soak and hardness, but then combine all post soak damage together for rolls. If there's enough soak for all damage, regular ping applies (1 time only)

[Kris Strife]

So, what is the general consensus on Five-Dragon style?

[The Rose Dragon]

So, what is the general consensus on Five-Dragon style?

It's straightforward and not terribly weak. A Dragon-blooded can get use out of learning it, as well most supernatural beings who are not Exalted. However, all of its post-Form Charms are Essence 4, which makes it useless for enlightened mortals and God-blooded.

[Mikal]

It's straightforward and not terribly weak. A Dragon-blooded can get use out of learning it, as well most supernatural beings who are not Exalted. However, all of its post-Form Charms are Essence 4, which makes it useless for enlightened mortals and God-blooded.

Five-Dragon Force Blow isn't too bad though, if you have a high strength.

[Kris Strife]

It's straightforward and not terribly weak. A Dragon-blooded can get use out of learning it, as well most supernatural beings who are not Exalted. However, all of its post-Form Charms are Essence 4, which makes it useless for enlightened mortals and God-blooded.

Any other terrestrial martial arts with straight blades as form weapons and the ability to use full armor?

[The Rose Dragon]

Any other terrestrial martial arts with straight blades as form weapons and the ability to use full armor?

If you have 5 dots in Martial Arts (and why wouldn't you?), there is Path of the Arbiter Style. Otherwise, nothing I can think of.

[Kris Strife]

If you have 5 dots in Martial Arts (and why wouldn't you?), there is Path of the Arbiter Style. Otherwise, nothing I can think of.

Source on Path of the Arbiter?

[The Rose Dragon]

Source on Path of the Arbiter?

Scroll of the Monk, the Imperfect Lotus.

[Kris Strife]

Scroll of the Monk, the Imperfect Lotus.

That doesn't seem to be any better for a Heroic mortal with enlightened essence. Or for using warstriders. :smallsigh:

[Tavar]

There are homebrew styles out there. Those might help.

[Kris Strife]

There are homebrew styles out there. Those might help.

Suggestions? This is for your game. :smalltongue:

Five Dragon Force Blow style charms would be a nice bonus for fluff reasons. :smallwink:

[Tavar]

The exalted wiki has a long list of Exalted Homebrew. Looking through them might lead to some gems.

[Kris Strife]

The official Wiki or the fan one?

[Tavar]

The official. The fan one...well, it's always seemed poorly set up.

Try here (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Terrestrial_Martial_Arts_Styles)

[Kris Strife]

There was only one that had just swords, no indications of if it meant straight or slashing, but there was no mention of armor either way. :smallsigh:

[Mr.Bookworm]

Any other terrestrial martial arts with straight blades as form weapons and the ability to use full armor?

Not full armor, but Even Blade allows medium armor, and is generally regarded as being very, very good.

[Kyeudo]

Not full armor, but Even Blade allows medium armor, and is generally regarded as being very, very good.

At least when it isn't being regarded as very, very bad.

[The Rose Dragon]

At least when it isn't being regarded as very, very bad.

It is regarded as bad because it is too good for a Terrestrial martial arts, though.

[Kris Strife]

Not full armor, but Even Blade allows medium armor, and is generally regarded as being very, very good.

I'm looking for straight swords, not slashing.

[Reynard]

I'm looking for straight swords, not slashing.

Then ask your ST if he'll allow it? There are literally no non-homebrew TMAs that use straight swords.

Why are you so focused on that weapon, by the by?

[Kris Strife]

Then ask your ST if he'll allow it? There are literally no non-homebrew TMAs that use straight swords.

Why are you so focused on that weapon, by the by?

Stylistic reasons, why else? :smalltongue:

[Indon]

Okay, another adjudication question that came to mind:

A lunar with their Third Strength Excellency uses it on a damage roll. Do they:

-Double their strength for the purposes of the roll, or
-Reroll their damage roll?

I'm leaning towards letting it allow rerolls, or possibly even letting the Lunar choose.

[The Rose Dragon]

Third Excellency only doubles the rating it applies to for static values. Damage is not a static value.

[Fortuna]

Very true. Now, there are borderline cases, like where your weapon's damage rating is dependant on your attributes (thank you, CotSM), but this isn't one of them.

[The Rose Dragon]

Very true. Now, there are borderline cases, like where your weapon's damage rating is dependant on your attributes (thank you, CotSM), but this isn't one of them.

Even then, that is not a static value. There are very few static values in Exalted (most notably being DVs and how hard it is for people to tell you are lying), really.

[Fortuna]

Except that it is. It's static (unrolled), but it happens to be added to other numbers (specifically, your strength and excess successes) to produce your raw damage value, which then has soak subtracted from it to produce your post-soak damage value, which is then rolled.

[Indon]

Third Excellency only doubles the rating it applies to for static values. Damage is not a static value.

That's what I figured, but there might have been some Lunar knack that allowed for damage rerolls that I didn't know of, wanted to make sure there wasn't anything like that


Except that it is. It's static (unrolled), but it happens to be added to other numbers (specifically, your strength and excess successes) to produce your raw damage value, which then has soak subtracted from it to produce your post-soak damage value, which is then rolled.

Well, that's how stats are added to most die pools.

Damage is just pretty tangential to strength, not contributing in all cases, so it's a strange case.

[TheCountAlucard]

Mechanically, though, there is a difference between a value that is static, and a static value. Weird as that may be. :smalltongue:

[Kris Strife]

Are there any homebrew TMAs that fit my criteria and are considered relatively balanced (as much as anything in Exalted is balanced :smalltongue:) and can be used by mortals?

[Mr.Bookworm]

Are there any homebrew TMAs that fit my criteria and are considered relatively balanced (as much as anything in Exalted is balanced :smalltongue:) and can be used by mortals?

Nope.

Literally, none. I looked.

Soooooo, either ask your DM to change another style to fit your character, or you just stick with Five-Dragon Style.

[Kris Strife]

Soooooo, either ask your DM to change another style to fit your character, or you just stick with Five-Dragon Style.

You mean the one I can only use one charm of?

[Mr.Bookworm]

You mean the one I can only use one charm of?

That one, yes.

Really, most Terrestrial Martial Arts seem to be aimed at Dragon-Blooded, which is understandable, but unfortunately leaves mortal characters kind of in the dust, especially if they have restrictions like yours.

Writing a lower-powered TMA for mortals (probably all Essence 1 or 2 charms) would be interesting, though.

[Reynard]

That one, yes.

Really, most Terrestrial Martial Arts seem to be aimed at Dragon-Blooded, which is understandable, but unfortunately leaves mortal characters kind of in the dust, especially if they have restrictions like yours.

Writing a lower-powered TMA for mortals (probably all Essence 1 or 2 charms) would be interesting, though.

Like this one? (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Transcendent_Warrior_Style)

[Kris Strife]

That one, yes.

Really, most Terrestrial Martial Arts seem to be aimed at Dragon-Blooded, which is understandable, but unfortunately leaves mortal characters kind of in the dust, especially if they have restrictions like yours.

Writing a lower-powered TMA for mortals (probably all Essence 1 or 2 charms) would be interesting, though.

If you'd give it a shot, I'll give you some pony pictures? Those are the current standard currency on the board, right? :smalltongue:

[Sanguine]

You mean the one I can only use one charm of?

Which is stupid if you think about it since in-setting Five-Dragon Style was designed for use by Enlightened Mortal Immaculates.

[Mr.Bookworm]

If you'd give it a shot, I'll give you some pony pictures? Those are the current standard currency on the board, right? :smalltongue:

They are the current standard currency in the barter economy that is the Internet, yes. Last I heard they were being valued as 1.563 Ponies:1 Lolcat.

That said, I would be willing to give it a shot if you want me to, but you might be better served by asking someone who has actually homebrewed in Exalted before.

[Tavar]

Hm...would it break anything to reduce the 5 dragon style's Essence requirements by 2, minimum 1?


Edit: also, given a theme, I might homebrew something up. Terrible with theme's, though.

[golentan]

Too many Ebon Dragon questions right now (mutter mutter mutter).

What are the limits on Eldritch Secrets Mastery? Consensus from what I've seen seems to imply it can disguise an anima banner, but not negate it (which is how I read the thing) but can it change the iconic display image as well as the "color?" Can it change the visual effects of some obvious charms? (I.E. can I blind myself and use Witness to Darkness, but have the "primordial essence seepage" look like blood or solar essence or the like)?

Edit: Can it disguise attuned artifacts?

[gareth]

I've been thinking of designing a Martial Arts style for mortals myself: Ephemeral Mayfly Style. It would be themed around mortals and mortality. I've only thought of one charm, Fearful Opossum Stance. If any attack hits you, you can instantly and perfectly play dead. Heart stops, breath stops, blood stops flowing, and your enemies need Essence sight to discover you're not actually dead. You can instantly counterattack without any penalties for lying prone or not having a heartbeat, too. I'd need more experience before I could do the mechanics.

[Mikal]

Are there any homebrew TMAs that fit my criteria and are considered relatively balanced (as much as anything in Exalted is balanced :smalltongue:) and can be used by mortals?

Even Blade can work. Mortals can't hit 4 essence so can't get the Pinnacles of that style which can be the worse.


Hm...would it break anything to reduce the 5 dragon style's Essence requirements by 2, minimum 1?


Edit: also, given a theme, I might homebrew something up. Terrible with theme's, though.

Yes. There's a reason that both styles endorsed by the Immaculate Order for mortals don't allow mortals to actually master that style. Don't want them to think they're as good as the Dragon-Blooded after all.

That, and a mortal can get some mileage out of Five-Dragon. I think up to the charm or a little past.

I'd say just create a custom TMA if it bothers you that much.

[Sanguine]

Yes. There's a reason that both styles endorsed by the Immaculate Order for mortals don't allow mortals to actually master that style. Don't want them to think they're as good as the Dragon-Blooded after all.

That is flawed reasoning. Dragon-Blooded Immaculates have the Immaculate Dragon Styles so Mortals wouldn't think they are as good as DBs even if they could master Five-Dragon Style; even if we ignore societal factors. Also Immaculates teach Five-Dragon Style to their Enlightened Mortal members to show to peasants that they are closer to reincarnation as DBs then normal people. That argument doesn't hold much weight if an Even Blade stylist(I picked that Style because it's roots are also on the Isle) can do more supernatural Martial Arts.

[Mikal]

That is flawed reasoning. Dragon-Blooded Immaculates have the Immaculate Dragon Styles so Mortals wouldn't think they are as good as DBs even if they could master Five-Dragon Style; even if we ignore societal factors. Also Immaculates teach Five-Dragon Style to their Enlightened Mortal members to show to peasants that they are closer to reincarnation as DBs then normal people. That argument doesn't hold much weight if an Even Blade stylist(I picked that Style because it's roots are also on the Isle) can do more supernatural Martial Arts.

It's not flawed reasoning. The Immaculate Philosophy doesn't want mortals thinking they are equal to Dragon-Bloods in anything, ever.

Having a mortal who can't complete a style but a DB can just reinforces it. If a Mortal could do it they may start to think they can do other things that DBs can.

[Yuki Akuma]

Of course, there are plenty of TMA styles that finish at Essence 3...

And DBs have to pay a mote surcharge for ones that aren't of their elemental aspect, but mortals don't (because they have no elemental aspect to interfere)...

I wonder if anyone notices that.

(Also your average starting Essence 3 DB has the same amount of essense motes as an Essence 3 enlightened mortal... but the mortal doesn't risk burning down his house when he uses his. Hmm.)

[Sanguine]

It's not flawed reasoning. The Immaculate Philosophy doesn't want mortals thinking they are equal to Dragon-Bloods in anything, ever.

Having a mortal who can't complete a style but a DB can just reinforces it. If a Mortal could do it they may start to think they can do other things that DBs can.

It's flawed reasoning because a Mortal that mastered Five-Dragon Style would still have plenty of reason to feel inferior to a DB.

Also they can complete a Style, just not the ones you're teaching them. As I said, kind of undermines the whole enlightenment shtick they claim to be handing out.

[Kris Strife]

Hm...would it break anything to reduce the 5 dragon style's Essence requirements by 2, minimum 1?


Edit: also, given a theme, I might homebrew something up. Terrible with theme's, though.

Well, there's only one martial art that I know of that's used primarily in mecha... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVhC-4R8YpQ)

I was hoping 5-Dragon Style would work is because quite a few of its charms worked well for that school. :smalltongue:

Admittedly, that is decidedly a Super Robot Anime...

[Mikal]

It's flawed reasoning because a Mortal that mastered Five-Dragon Style would still have plenty of reason to feel inferior to a DB.

So? It's not about making a mortal feel inferior enough. They need to be inferior in every aspect.



Also they can complete a Style, just not the ones you're teaching them. As I said, kind of undermines the whole enlightenment shtick they claim to be handing out.

Except for the fact where the two styles which are given the blessing of the Immaculate Order are Five Dragon and Even Blade. If they allowed any other styles, then yes, maybe. But they don't.

[The Rose Dragon]

(Also your average starting Essence 3 DB has the same amount of essense motes as an Essence 3 enlightened mortal... but the mortal doesn't risk burning down his house when he uses his. Hmm.)

The Terrestrial doesn't have to pay a point of Willpower for each scene he wants to use most of his Essence, though. And that's why Terrestrial houses are usually made of stone.


Except for the fact where the two styles which are given the blessing of the Immaculate Order are Five Dragon and Even Blade. If they allowed any other styles, then yes, maybe. But they don't.

Only Five-Dragon is taught by the Immaculate Order. Even Blade is a completely secular style.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Well, there's only one martial art that I know of that's used primarily in mecha... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVhC-4R8YpQ)

Skyscraper Kicking Technique is the best charm ever.


So? It's not about making a mortal feel inferior [b]enough[b]. They need to be inferior in every aspect.

Except that doesn't jive with the actual Immaculate philosophy, which is most decidedly not about making mortals feel inferior. It's about making them respect Dragon-Bloods as their natural superiors, which is an important distinction. Nobody is going to follow a religion that is about how you suck. People follow the Immaculate Philosophy because it gives them a place in the world, and tells them that they can be better if they follow it.

[Yuki Akuma]

The Terrestrial doesn't have to pay a point of Willpower for each scene he wants to use most of his Essence, though. And that's why Terrestrial houses are usually made of stone.

Only if the mortal didn't get the 7 BP version of Enlightened Essence. The 7 BP version means you don't have to spend willpower to use most of your motes.

[Mikal]

Except that doesn't jive with the actual Immaculate philosophy, which is most decidedly not about making mortals feel inferior. It's about making them respect Dragon-Bloods as their natural superiors, which is an important distinction.
Nobody is going to follow a religion that is about how you suck. People follow the Immaculate Philosophy because it gives them a place in the world, and tells them that they can be better if they follow it.


A valid point, semantically speaking. Either way though, whether it makes the mortal feel inferior, or the DB as naturally superior, the point stands that the Immaculate friendly (whether or not they teach it) are styles that pinnacle at essence 4.

[The Rose Dragon]

Only if the mortal didn't get the 7 BP version of Enlightened Essence. The 7 BP version means you don't have to spend willpower to use most of your motes.

Yes, but it's a merit from Scroll of Heroes. I was speaking for acceptable ways of getting enlightened Essence, setting balance wise.

The sad part is, I'm pretty sure that chapter (or that book) won't be errata'd other than "burn it with fire", even though it totally should (because apparently, being paralyzed from the neck down does not at all penalize your DVs), because there are a lot of other stuff to get errata before that.

[Sanguine]

So? It's not about making a mortal feel inferior enough. They need to be inferior in every aspect.

As has already been said, that's not the Immaculate agenda. Or the agenda of it's secret architects. Also mortal Immaculates are supposed to be closer to DBs then normal people; at least according to Immaculate Doctrine.


Except for the fact where the two styles which are given the blessing of the Immaculate Order are Five Dragon and Even Blade. If they allowed any other styles, then yes, maybe. But they don't.

The fact that the Order doesn't advocate the styles only strengthens my point as it means these styles that offer greater enlightenment are entirely secular in nature...or possibly not.

[Mikal]

The fact that the Order doesn't advocate the styles only strengthens my point as it means these styles that offer greater enlightenment are entirely secular in nature...or possibly not.

Or it means these styles don't offer greater enlightenment, but reinforce Dragon-Blooded superiority by their ability to master that which the mortal cannot, even when enlightened.

[Tavar]

Except, if they want to prove that, they showcase the Celestial styles.

Also, even with a supernatural martial art, a mortal is hardly a match for a true exalted. Excellencies and the like are incredibly powerful, after all.

[Mikal]

Except, if they want to prove that, they showcase the Celestial styles.

Also, even with a supernatural martial art, a mortal is hardly a match for a true exalted. Excellencies and the like are incredibly powerful, after all.

Again, it's not a matter of "We can do x, y, z." It's a matter of "We do everything better than you."

A supernatural martial art that a mortal can master as well as a Dragon-Blood can negates this, or at the least casts doubts, which is something religion tries not to do. Logic/Doubts+Religion= Failure.

I find it very amusing that so many people seem against a religion that preaches a certain sect of beings as superior in all ways only advocating styles that can only be mastered by those beings, and not by the masses, no matter how hard they try (unless they get possessed by demons and become Anathema)

[Sanguine]

Or it means these styles don't offer greater enlightenment, but reinforce Dragon-Blooded superiority by their ability to master that which the mortal cannot, even when enlightened.

Charms especially Martial Arts charms are a refinement of ones core being in a very specific manner. Enlightenment in other words. That's my final words on the matter.

Edit: I saw you post and am changing my mind about final words. Since when are Enlightened Mortals the masses. They are like one in every hundred people if that and those are the ones with Essence 1. And I have no problem with them creating styles only the superior beings can learn. That's what the Immaculate Dragon Styles are. My problem is the absurdity that a style created specifically for Enlightened Mortal Monks can't be mastered by them.

[Mikal]

Charms especially Martial Arts charms are a refinement of ones core being in a very specific manner. Enlightenment in other words. That's my final words on the matter.

And the Immaculate Order preaches obedience in this life to get true enlightenment in the next, and only the Dragon-Blooded can be truly enlightened.

Ergo, if Martial Arts are a refinement of ones core being, thus enlightenment, they would only support styles mortals CAN'T master for use by enlightened mortals, since they want to reinforce the belief that "Dragon-Blood=Enlightenment, Mortals=Maybe next life if you do good this one by serving the Dragon-Blooded"

After all, the Immaculate Order and the Realm both frown upon any sort of enlightenment, making it largely illegal. They don't want enlightened mortals. They'll use them if they're handy, but they don't want them.

The Order is tool of control after all, not a sincere religion.


Edit: I saw you post and am changing my mind about final words. Since when are Enlightened Mortals the masses. They are like one in every hundred people if that and those are the ones with Essence 1. And I have no problem with them creating styles only the superior beings can learn. That's what the Immaculate Dragon Styles are. My problem is the absurdity that a style created specifically for Enlightened Mortal Monks can't be mastered by them.

One in every hundred people is a much larger percentage when compared to any exalt, including the Dragon-Blooded, and can actually be considered "the masses" since theoretically any mortal can achieve enlightenment with the various ways to do so.

And while you may find it absurd, it makes sense when looking at the Immaculate Philosophy and its goals. It doesn't WANT enlightened mortals, and those that DO exist they want to make sure don't get thoughts that they can be the equal of the Dragon-Blooded.

Thus, a martial art style which Enlightened Mortals can't master, but which they can use, makes perfect sense for an order that wants to marginalize Enlightened Mortals as much as possible. Again, it's about control.

If the religion was actually meant to somehow improve humanity, then yes, it'd be absurd. But it's not. Also, Five-Dragon is meant to be taught to non-monks, which means Dynasts, not enlightened mortal monks. They just get it if the Order has such a mortal handy.

[Tavar]

A supernatural martial art that a mortal can master as well as a Dragon-Blood can negates this, or at the least casts doubts, which is something religion tries not to do. Logic/Doubts+Religion= Failure.

That's patently false. Mortals can master weaker styles as well as dragonblooded can, true. But to do so take a huge amount of work. And, even after doing so a Dragonblooded can use them better, as well as learn them with greater ease. More importantly, they have stronger styles that they alone can know. No mortal can manage a Celestial Style. Dragonblooded can.

By your logic, having enlightened mortals at all would break the Immaculate faith, which is at odds with what the faith preaches. Yes, mortals are below dragonblooded, but with sufficient work they can eventually reach near parity in a very small, select field. But only near parity.

Also, the Immaculate order does have Enlightened mortal monks. In fact, in canon, those make up the majority of their itinerant monks. Note that these are enlightened following Immaculate doctrine, and thus are exemplars for the religion.

[Mikal]

That's patently false. Mortals can master weaker styles as well as dragonblooded can, true. But to do so take a huge amount of work. And, even after doing so a Dragonblooded can use them better, as well as learn them with greater ease. More importantly, they have stronger styles that they alone can know. No mortal can manage a Celestial Style. Dragonblooded can.

Which again, is not the point. The point isn't whether or not a Dragon-Blood can do more, but that a Dragon-Blood is better, in all ways, to any sort of Mortal. Dragon-Bloods are the pinnacle, the top, the apex, in every single way



By your logic, having enlightened mortals at all would break the Immaculate faith, which is at odds with what the faith preaches. Yes, mortals are below dragonblooded, but with sufficient work they can eventually reach near parity in a very small, select field. But only near parity.

Reread the stuff on the faith again. Enlightened mortals ARE against the Immaculate Faith. It's generally considered a sin and a crime for a Mortal to even attempt enlightenment, as it rises them beyond their station.



Also, the Immaculate order does have Enlightened mortal monks. In fact, in canon, those make up the majority of their itinerant monks. Note that these are enlightened following Immaculate doctrine, and thus are exemplars for the religion.

Yes, which are the small exceptions to the general note stated above. But even then, it's about control. Even the most pious and best mortals cannot master a style that a Dragon-Blooded can.

If they could, then what else could a Mortal do? That's a question the Immaculates don't want asked, and that allowing a style that a mortal could master could bring up.

EDIT: And as stated above, Five Dragon is a) The only one endorsed by the order (not Even Blade as well, my bad) but it's generally used by people OUTSIDE the Order.

[Reynard]

Again, it's not a matter of "We can do x, y, z." It's a matter of "We do everything better than you."

A supernatural martial art that a mortal can master as well as a Dragon-Blood can negates this, or at the least casts doubts, which is something religion tries not to do. Logic/Doubts+Religion= Failure.

I find it very amusing that so many people seem against a religion that preaches a certain sect of beings as superior in all ways only advocating styles that can only be mastered by those beings, and not by the masses, no matter how hard they try (unless they get possessed by demons and become Anathema)

Have you read the sections of the books that talk about the doctrine?

Becuase I don't think you have.

[Mikal]

Have you read the sections of the books that talk about the doctrine?

Becuase I don't think you have.

1. All beings in Creation are constantly dying and being reincarnated, ascending and descending the Road of Enlightenment. Those who are Exalted are very close to the end of the Road, while insects and plants are near the beginning. Most sentient mortals are somewhere near the center.
2. As beings approach the end of the Road, they approach the infinite perfection of Essence that is the Elemental Dragons, who hold Creation together.
3. Working in solitude and striving to surpass their lot in life, all beings in Creation draw away from the perfection of the Elemental Dragons. Working together and accepting their present incarnations, all beings in Creation mimic the Elemental Dragons and approach their perfection.
4. The Dragon-Blooded, who were the disciples and children of the mortal incarnations of the Elemental Dragons, are leading the Immaculates toward that degree of perfection.
5. The Anathema, who reject the Elemental Dragons and obey only their own ambitions, are drawing Creation toward despair and ruin.

In other words, Dragon-Blooded are at the top, everyone needs to work together,obey your spiritual betters, and never trust Anathema.

So yes. Yes I have.

EDIT:
Also, the Diligent Practices

1 Hear a recital of an Immaculate Text at least once a month, in the company of at least seventeen other followers of the Philosophy.
2 Respect and honor Spirits only according to the calendar and in the specific rites set down by the Immaculate Order, giving each spirit its due only insofar as it serves the harmony of Creation.
3 Imitate in word and deed the honorable behaviors of the Five Immaculate Dragons, the mortal incarnations of the Dragons of the Elements. Emulate the thoughts appropriate to your incarnation as decreed by the Immaculate Dragons.
4 Obey the Dragon-Blooded, who are the descendants and disciples of the Immaculate Dragons and are so close to enlightenment that their commands cannot cause a soul to stray from the Road.
5 Resist the commands of the Anathema to the fullest degree of the abilities of your present incarnation, and do not fall into despair.

In other words, listen to doctrine, don't give spirits extra prayers to keep them in line, act like the false dragons we created do to reinforce our dogma, 4 blatantly says obey the dragon-blooded, and resist the commands of the anathema

[Yuki Akuma]

Enlightened Mortals are totally "the masses" when compared to Dragon-Blooded.

There are billions of mortals, and therefore millions of enlightened mortals. There are tens of thousands of Dragon-Blooded.

[Tackyhillbillu]

The Order is tool of control after all, not a sincere religion.

If the religion was actually meant to somehow improve humanity, then yes, it'd be absurd. But it's not. Also, Five-Dragon is meant to be taught to non-monks, which means Dynasts, not enlightened mortal monks. They just get it if the Order has such a mortal handy.

You... are utterly wrong.

The Immaculate Doctrine is a collection of lies and truths. However, here is the thing? The Monks in the order are neither universally bad or good. And a lot of them are trying to help humanity.

Look, Gods are jerks. The Immaculate Order says "lets not worship gods. They treat us like crap. Lets work to better ourselves." Now, it has a lot of false and misleading stuff interjected into it by the Sidereals, but the Monks truly believe it. And they believe by helping mortals to follow it, they put them on the path to enlightenment.

At the core of it? Dragonblooded are not the villains of Exalted. Immaculate Monks aren't either. They are neither good nor evil. Some try to help, some use their power as a method of control. But most of them truly believe the religion, and have seen the effect it has. Because here is the thing. The Realm is the best place in Creation for a Mortal to live.

[Yuki Akuma]

The Immaculate Philosophy is a tool of control and a sincere religion.

Several Sidereals actually believe it.

[Mikal]

You... are utterly wrong.

No actually, I'm not.



The Immaculate Doctrine is a collection of lies and truths. However, here is the thing? The Monks in the order are neither universally bad or good. And a lot of them are trying to help humanity.

Which has nothing to do with the Immaculate Faith ultimately being a system of control over gods, spirits, and mortals.



Look, Gods are jerks. The Immaculate Order says "lets not worship gods. They treat us like crap. Lets work to better ourselves." Now, it has a lot of false and misleading stuff interjected into it by the Sidereals, but the Monks truly believe it. And they believe by helping mortals to follow it, they put them on the path to enlightenment.

Just because a lie is believed doesn't make it truth.



At the core of it? Dragonblooded are not the villains of Exalted. Immaculate Monks aren't either. They are neither good nor evil. Some try to help, some use their power as a method of control. But most of them truly believe the religion, and have seen the effect it has. Because here is the thing. The Realm is the best place in Creation for a Mortal to live.

Which again, has nothing to do with my point, that the Immaculate Faith is ultimately a tool of control, not true spiritual enlightenment.

EDIT: As for the best place for Mortals to live, I'll disagree. It's the safest. As long as you don't get in the way of Peleps Deled. Or piss off any Dragon Blood. Or a patrician. Or a magistrate. Or live in an area a magistrate disenfranchises for a bribe.

If you want to live in a state where you will always be an underclass with few rights compared to the divine masters then yes, the Realm is just ducky. And many DO trade freedom for stability. That doesn't make it the best.


The Immaculate Philosophy is a tool of control and a sincere religion.

Several Sidereals actually believe it.

But those who created it do not. Just because those who came after believe the lie does not make the lie true.

[Tackyhillbillu]

No actually, I'm not.

Yes, you are.


Just because a lie is believed doesn't make it truth.

Now we are getting dangerously close to forbidden topics. But if the law is entirely unverifiable? It is true. Or the closest possible thing.


Which again, has nothing to do with my point, that the Immaculate Faith is ultimately a tool of control, not true spiritual enlightenment.

Actually, you are wrong. The Immaculate Faith produces enlightenment. There is a reason Immaculate Monks are the only DBs who can use CMAs. Because they get these neat charms, as a result of an incredibly dangerous, and painful training. Called Enlightenment Charms.


EDIT: As for the best place for Mortals to live, I'll disagree. It's the safest. As long as you don't get in the way of Peleps Deled. Or piss off any Dragon Blood. Or a patrician. Or a magistrate. Or live in an area a magistrate disenfranchises for a bribe.

If you want to live in a state where you will always be an underclass with few rights compared to the divine masters then yes, the Realm is just ducky. And many DO trade freedom for stability. That doesn't make it the best.

Oh my, the risk of pissing off a DB, who actually faces retribution from a watchful set of superiors is so much more dangerous then pissing off a God, who is immortal, reacts to stimuli in random ways, and has no oversight whatsoever.

The Realm is a pretty nice place. Lookshy as well, honestly.


If you want to live in a state where you will always be an underclass with few rights compared to the divine masters then yes, the Realm is just ducky.

And this is worse then living in a state where you will be an underclass with few rights compared to the divine masters that almost the entirety of Creation does? Complete with the threat of utter annihilation, ruled over by beings that view you as a cow, to be milked for prayers, and discarded when your usefulness is gone?

[Mikal]

Yes, you are.

Except I'm not.




Now we are getting dangerously close to forbidden topics. But if the law is entirely unverifiable? It is true. Or the closest possible thing.


Except this can be verified. Within the main book itself it says something similar to the following:

'After the Usurpation most minor Gods and Spirits saw the regicide of the Solars as an insult, and outright refused to cooperate with the new Shogunate. In order to maintain the hold of their new Terrestrial lords, the Bronze Faction gave the Dragon Blooded Celestial Martial Arts powerful enough to subdue both minor Gods and the few remaining stray Solars. All this combined with a religious mandate of conquest sent a powerful message to Creation, the people heard: "Your new lords have arrived," the spirits heard: "Obey us or get hurt."'

There. Verification.




Actually, you are wrong. The Immaculate Faith produces enlightenment. There is a reason Immaculate Monks are the only DBs who can use CMAs. Because they get these neat charms, as a result of an incredibly dangerous, and painful training. Called Enlightenment Charms.

...Right. Because the Enlightenment Charms only come from the Immaculate Faith right?

I guess we'll just ignore Tiger and Bear Unity then (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Charms:Tiger-and-Bear_Unity).

Note: That was Sarcasm. DBs have been using CMA for thousands of years, long before the Immaculate Faith was constructed. ANY DB can learn an Immaculate style with a teacher and the right charm. It's not due to the Immaculate Faith. They just control (there's that word again) the knowledge of the styles and the means of learning it.

[Tackyhillbillu]

Except this can be verified. Within the main book itself it says something similar to the following:

'After the Usurpation most minor Gods and Spirits saw the regicide of the Solars as an insult, and outright refused to cooperate with the new Shogunate. In order to maintain the hold of their new Terrestrial lords, the Bronze Faction gave the Dragon Blooded Celestial Martial Arts powerful enough to subdue both minor Gods and the few remaining stray Solars. All this combined with a religious mandate of conquest sent a powerful message to Creation, the people heard: "Your new lords have arrived," the spirits heard: "Obey us or get hurt."'

There. Verification.

Hey guess what? That is the gods. Who are *******s. And lie to mortals all the time. No verification for the DBs.


...Right. Because the Enlightenment Charms only come from the Immaculate Faith right?

I guess we'll just ignore Tiger and Bear Unity then (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Charms:Tiger-and-Bear_Unity).

Note: That was Sarcasm. DBs have been using CMA for thousands of years, long before the Immaculate Faith was constructed. ANY DB can learn an Immaculate style with a teacher and the right charm. It's not due to the Immaculate Faith. They just control (there's that word again) the knowledge of the styles and the means of learning it.

It produces enlightenment. That there are other paths to it does not change the fact that it does.

[Mikal]

Hey guess what? That is the gods. Who are *******s. And lie to mortals all the time. No verification for the DBs.
Except this comes from the book, not from the Gods. So... yeah, wrong again.



It produces enlightenment. That there are other paths to it does not change the fact that it does.

Enlightenment charms for Martial Arts doesn't mean actual enlightenment. But hey, I guess being pedantic works for you


Oh my, the risk of pissing off a DB, who actually faces retribution from a watchful set of superiors is so much more dangerous then pissing off a God, who is immortal, reacts to stimuli in random ways, and has no oversight whatsoever.

If only the Gods had some sort of oversight... perhaps a bureaucracy of some sort. Yup. Too bad they don't have oversight.

Note: Sarcasm again :smallcool:



The Realm is a pretty nice place. Lookshy as well, honestly.

As long as you're a Terrestrial Exalt it is, yeah.


And this is worse then living in a state where you will be an underclass with few rights compared to the divine masters that almost the entirety of Creation does?

This is the state Mortals live in in the Realm...



Complete with the threat of utter annihilation, ruled over by beings that view you as a cow, to be milked for prayers, and discarded when your usefulness is gone?

Yup, because those Gods sure have no set of rules, oversight, or hierarchy. None whatsoever. Pure ANARCHY, Heaven must be.

[Sanguine]

This is the state Mortals live in in the Realm...

Yeah, but unlike in the Threshold the Divine Masters of the Realm actually stand a chance of protecting their citizenry. Well I guess the gods of Great Forks were actually pretty impressive in that regard; but they are an exception to the rule.

[Tackyhillbillu]

Except this comes from the book, not from the Gods. So... yeah, wrong again.

Yes, but here is the thing? Nobody in the game knows this, besides the gods. As well? The other splats contradict that, and each other. Nothing in Exalted's history is fixed. Each book tends to write from the point of view of their Exalt.


If only the Gods had some sort of oversight... perhaps a bureaucracy of some sort. Yup. Too bad they don't have oversight.

Note: Sarcasm again :smallcool:

Hahahahha. Oh wait, you are being serious. The Terrestrial Bureacracy... is broken. It doesn't work at all. Most of the Censors are lazy jerks, and their underlings are just as lazy. There is no oversight. The Celestial Bureaucracy is in better shape... if having wars over office supplies is 'better shape.'


This is the state Mortals live in in the Realm...

This is the state Mortals live in everywhere. The Realm Mortals simiply have it better.


Yup, because those Gods sure have no set of rules, oversight, or hierarchy. None whatsoever. Pure ANARCHY, Heaven must be.

Read MoEP: Sidereals, my man. Yu-Shan is a trippy place. When you sneak into the office of the God of the Blessed Isle Rainfall to steal his Pencil Erasers, only to find that Sidereals from the Bureau of Serenity are throwing a party in there because they are just that drunk, something is up.

---

Edit:


Yeah, but unlike in the Threshold the Divine Masters of the Realm actually stand a chance of protecting their citizenry. Well I guess the gods of Great Forks were actually pretty impressive in that regard; but they are an exception to the rule.

And to be fair, that was mostly the idea of Talespinner, who is a former Mortal, not the typical God at all.

[Lix Lorn]

As the Sidereals books explains in loving detail, the bureaucracy of heaven is about as competent as... hmm... trying to find an example here extreme enough to insult the bureaucracy to the extent it deserves.

...
Let's just say not competent at all.

Also, very few if any LIVING beings know the other enlightenment charms.

[Mikal]

Yeah, but unlike in the Threshold the Divine Masters the Realm actually stand a chance of protecting you. Well I guess the gods of Great Forks were actually pretty impressive in that regard; but they are an exception to the rule.

Which of course is why those are the only places in Creation. Paragon, Lookshy, Nexus, Halta, and so on are figments of imagination.

The Realm is actually a very bad place to be. They have the illusion of safety brought about by complacency. They have large numbers of weak Exalts who can do nothing against the true threats of Creation, and actively Demonize those who do have a chance.

And even those weak Exalts will be mostly screwed when the Empress comes back and starts turning them all into slaves with those Dynasty charms to work for her Ebon Groom...



Yes, but here is the thing? Nobody in the game knows this, besides the gods. As well? The other splats contradict that, and each other. Nothing in Exalted's history is fixed. Each book tends to write from the point of view of their Exalt.

Ah so because a lie is believed by all its the truth, even if we, as players, know it's a lie?

Yeah... that's not how... lies and truth work.



Hahahahha. Oh wait, you are being serious. The Terrestrial Bureacracy... is broken. It doesn't work at all. Most of the Censors are lazy jerks, and their underlings are just as lazy. There is no oversight. The Celestial Bureaucracy is in better shape... if having wars over office supplies is 'better shape.'


Ah, I see, so the Gods of course are all greedy and lazy, while the pious, enlightened Dragon-Blood do naught but better the world. Interesting mind-set there.



This is the state Mortals live in everywhere. The Realm Mortals simiply have it better.

Nexus begs to differ. Paragon begs to differ.




Read MoEP: Sidereals, my man. Yu-Shan is a trippy place. When you sneak into the office of the God of the Blessed Isle Rainfall to steal his Pencil Erasers, only to find that Sidereals from the Bureau of Serenity are throwing a party in there because they are just that drunk, something is up.

Hmm, weird. Looking in the book and I don't see that anywhere. it surely must be a trippy place, if your book has stuff mine doesnt!


As the Sidereals books explains in loving detail, the bureaucracy of heaven is about as competent as... hmm... trying to find an example here extreme enough to insult the bureaucracy to the extent it deserves.

...
Let's just say not competent at all.

Competent =/= non-existent, which is what the other poster is claiming.



Also, very few if any LIVING beings know the other enlightenment charms.

Which changes the fact the other poster was wrong about the Immaculate Order being the end-all be-all of enlightenment, or that ONLY Immaculate DBs know CMA.... how?

[Lucus Casius]

*sidereal'ed*

[Mr.Bookworm]

Enlightenment charms for Martial Arts doesn't mean actual enlightenment. But hey, I guess being pedantic works for you

What? That is exactly what Enlightenment in Exalted means. It's bizarre that you could think it means anything else. Here's one quote from the Dragon-Blooded book. I have more.


The Five Glorious Dragon Styles are Celestial martial arts. To begin studying such powerful Charms, a Dragon-Blooded student must first be properly initiated. Methods vary, but such an initia- tion always includes a deep purification of the body and mind. The Terrestrial Exalt eats little other than rice, steamed vegetables and dough, water and various teas while meditating daily on such distant concepts as “dust,” “ash,” “rainstorms,” “death” and “the word,” among others. Celibacy is often an additional measure to reinforce the purity of the body.

This is only a part of the process that advances a Dragon- Blood’s level of enlightenment toward one that can comprehend the internal and external impacts of Celestial martial arts. The other significant portion of that study is to learn a pair of Charms that open her mind and soul to new, advanced methods for ma- nipulating Essence. Once she recognizes the heights and depths to which Essence permeates and affects Creation, she can begin to transcend the natural limitation of her Terrestrial blood. Sifus share this wisdom with their Dragon-Blooded students by teaching them a pair of Charms designed to open their senses and experiences to a broader world.


If only the Gods had some sort of oversight... perhaps a bureaucracy of some sort. Yup. Too bad they don't have oversight.

Note: Sarcasm again :smallcool:

:smallconfused:

I know you have at least read the Exalted books.

This statement confuses me, then, because anyone who has actually read anything tangentially related to Exalted knows that the Celestial and Terrestrial Bureaucracies are two of the most inefficient, corrupt, and wasteful governmental organizations ever put in fiction, who do more or less jack squat to keep Terrestrial gods running rampant.


As long as you're a Terrestrial Exalt it is, yeah.

...what? You have read the Exalted books, right? That's becoming increasingly unclear to me. It's made very clear that the average mortal in the Realm or Lookshy has it comparatively nice.


This is the state Mortals live in in the Realm...

And it is the state every non-heroic mortal that has ever existed lives in. Saying mortals bow down to a master is like saying the sky is blue.

EDIT: Sidereal'd hard.

[Mikal]

What? That is exactly what Enlightenment in Exalted means. It's bizarre that you could think it means anything else. Here's one quote from the Dragon-Blooded book. I have more.

I'm speaking of enlightenment as in the learning, expanding sense, beyond the Exalted version of "here, more power for you". Which yes, I know, can be a definition of enlightenment, but not the only definition, as was being claimed.



:smallconfused:

I know you have at least read the Exalted books.

This statement confuses me, then, because anyone who has actually read anything tangentially related to Exalted knows that the Celestial and Terrestrial Bureaucracies are two of the most inefficient, corrupt, and wasteful governmental organizations ever put in fiction, who do more or less jack squat to keep Terrestrial gods running rampant.


I didn't say it was efficient. I said it was there.



...what? You have read the Exalted books, right? That's becoming increasingly unclear to me. It's made very clear that the average mortal in the Realm or Lookshy has it comparatively nice.


As long as you like to trade freedom for (illusionary) safety, then yes. It's nice.

Until the Scarlet Empress comes back with the demons and turns it into Hell on Earth.
Or you get disenfranchised in the meantime.
Or you look at a Dragon-Blood the wrong way.



And it is the state every non-heroic mortal that has ever existed lives in. Saying mortals bow down to a master is like saying the sky is blue.

Did I say they didn't? All I'm saying is that what the Realm has isn't better just because it's safer (especially when it's not).

[Tackyhillbillu]

Which of course is why those are the only places in Creation. Paragon, Lookshy, Nexus, Halta, and so on are figments of imagination.

Paragon: All serve the Prefect. Oh and we are screwed the moment anything supernatural shows up.

Lookshy: Are also followers of the Immaculate faith.

Nexus: Live in terror of the whims of one of the gods who blow people up, and the rule of the guild, who will literally sell your soul to the Fae.

Halta: We are pawns of the Silver Pact, those guys who think Ma-Ha-Suchi is an authority figure, and are also screwed.


The Realm is actually a very bad place to be. They have the illusion of safety brought about by complacency. They have large numbers of weak Exalts who can do nothing against the true threats of Creation, and actively Demonize those who do have a chance.

This... this is the stupidest thing you have said... pretty much period. Here is the thing. The Realm? Yeah, it is the most powerful force in the entire setting. Malfeas, the Underworld, all of them? The Realm is entirely capable of going head to head, and winning. There is a reason that all of those enemies are going with subversion.

The Dragonblooded have stood, fought, and won before every threat creation has faced. They die, but their brothers pick up the blade. Creation lives and breathes because every inch of soil is stained with DB blood, from DB victories. The DBs killed the First Age Solars. They are not inconsequential. They are heroes, just as much as the Solars, Lunars, and other Exalts.


And even those weak Exalts will be mostly screwed when the Empress comes back and starts turning them all into slaves with those Dynasty charms to work for her Ebon Groom...

Except they aren't and they won't be? Because Mnemnon Launches her Xanatos Gambit, and breaks the connection of a vast majority of DBs, and then leads a resistance force against her mother. Also, this does show why the whole 'weak Exalts' thing is moronic, given that the ED has spent so much time corrupting the DBs, when if they were truly all that weak, he could have just roflstomped them.

[Tavar]

Just to point out; the Silver pact is pretty much a club, not a ruling body. Plus, it's stated that if anyone knew what Ma-Ha was doing, they'd basically go gank him.

Also, the Realm is far from the most powerful thing in the setting. The only thing holding back Malfeas is their oaths, otherwise the Primordials would stomp the realm flat. The Underworld...most things in there just don't really care, or want some more complicated thing. As is, I believe the Mask of Winters could solo all the Dragon-Blooded in creation, if he wanted to.

Now, the Realm Defense Grid is quite probably the most powerful thing in the setting, but that's a very different thing from the Realm.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Which of course is why those are the only places in Creation. Paragon, Lookshy, Nexus, Halta, and so on are figments of imagination.

Paragon- The exception that proves the rule. Ruled by a powerful Enlightened Mortal holding an extremely powerful Artifact N/A.

Lookshy- Ruled by Dragon-Blooded, with the largest stores of First Age weaponry in Creation.

Nexus- Secretly ruled by a being implied to be on par with the Incarnae.

Halta- Created and supported by two First Age Lunars.


The Realm is actually a very bad place to be. They have the illusion of safety brought about by complacency. They have large numbers of weak Exalts who can do nothing against the true threats of Creation, and actively Demonize those who do have a chance.

The Realm was quite literally the safest place to be in Creation, at least while the Empress was around. The Realm Defense Grid is the most powerful weapon in Creation.


And even those weak Exalts will be mostly screwed when the Empress comes back and starts turning them all into slaves with those Dynasty charms to work for her Ebon Groom...

So is the entire rest of the world.


Nexus begs to differ. Paragon begs to differ.

See back above.


Hmm, weird. Looking in the book and I don't see that anywhere. it surely must be a trippy place, if your book has stuff mine doesnt!

I am very, very confused if you have ever actually read an Exalted book. I'm not being insulting or facetious. Every single thing ever written about Yu-Shan has made it clear that it's a pretty wild place.


Competent =/= non-existent, which is what the other poster is claiming.

Non-existent would quite literally be better then the Bureaucracy as it stands.


Which changes the fact the other poster was wrong about the Immaculate Order being the end-all be-all of enlightenment, or that ONLY Immaculate DBs know CMA.... how?

That doesn't change that 99% of DBs who know Celestial martial arts in the current day are Immaculate monks.


I'm speaking of enlightenment as in the learning, expanding sense, beyond the Exalted version of "here, more power for you". Which yes, I know, can be a definition of enlightenment, but not the only definition, as was being claimed.

What?! Did you actually read what I posted? The two are intimately connected. You learn Enlightenment charms by becoming enlightened.


I didn't say it was efficient. I said it was there.

Yes, it is "there". It might as well not be.


As long as you like to trade freedom for (illusionary) safety, then yes. It's nice.

The Realm has protected it's citizens for 700 years. Successfully. In Creation? They have the biggest guns, the best armies, and the most land.


Did I say they didn't? All I'm saying is that what the Realm has isn't better just because it's safer (especially when it's not).

...the Realm, under the Empress, was quite literally the safest place to be in Creation. I'm not going to argue a basic fact of the setting.

[Tackyhillbillu]

Just to point out; the Silver pact is pretty much a club, not a ruling body. Plus, it's stated that if anyone knew what Ma-Ha was doing, they'd basically go gank him.

Also, the Realm is far from the most powerful thing in the setting. The only thing holding back Malfeas is their oaths, otherwise the Primordials would stomp the realm flat. The Underworld...most things in there just don't really care, or want some more complicated thing. As is, I believe the Mask of Winters could solo all the Dragon-Blooded in creation, if he wanted to.

Now, the Realm Defense Grid is quite probably the most powerful thing in the setting, but that's a very different thing from the Realm.

The Lunar Elders are pulling the strings of Halta, and... I don't think they would. Because they are all just as nuts as he is. See Leviathin, that guy who is angry because the DBs killed his mate. Admiral Arkadi. Best known for raping female DBs under him, and then swearing them to silence with his Anima.

No, actually it is explicitly stated that the Realm is the most powerful force in the setting. If the Yozi were able to utilize their full powers, Malfeas would be. But they aren't.

And no, the Mask wouldn't be able to. If you want to go by crunch, we can (the DBs can kill him. It would be long, and a pain in the ass, and plenty of them would die, but they would get him down.) If we want to go by Fluff? The DBs already did, and can again.

[Mikal]

Paragon: All serve the Prefect. Oh and we are screwed the moment anything supernatural shows up.

Yes, because the South is void of anything Supernatural, and Paragon has no supernatural defenders. Nope, they don't hire outcastes, god-bloods, and have a Solar who serves the Perfect.



Nexus: Live in terror of the whims of one of the gods who blow people up, and the rule of the guild, who will literally sell your soul to the Fae.


Which of course, is why no one lives there, or why Nexus forces you to live there if you do. Wait, no, neither of those happen.



Halta: We are pawns of the Silver Pact, those guys who think Ma-Ha-Suchi is an authority figure, and are also screwed.


Uh huh. Screwed because... why, you say so?



This... this is the stupidest thing you have said... pretty much period. Here is the thing. The Realm? Yeah, it is the most powerful force in the entire setting. Malfeas, the Underworld, all of them? The Realm is entirely capable of going head to head, and winning. There is a reason that all of those enemies are going with subversion.

....The only thing the Realm has going for it is the Sword of Creation. You do realize the Yozi's literally cannot enter Creation without being summoned due to the Solars and the pacts they made, yes?

And that the only reason the Ebon Dragon is doing this plan is because it's the only way he can freely enter Creation? And once he does the Realm is utterly screwed?

Also, the Neverborn and Deathlords are stupid. They all rub their hands and act cartoon villainous rather then banding together. If they wanted to, and actually worked at it, Creation would already be dead.

I do have to say though, your false faith in the Realm does mirror what the average citizen would think. So, bravo for thinking like a mortal in Creation.



The Dragonblooded have stood, fought, and won before every threat creation has faced.
*Cough*Fair Folk*Cough* (note, being saved by a weapon created by Solars does not mean the Dragonblood won. It means an act of desperation worked)



They die, but their brothers pick up the blade. Creation lives and breathes because every inch of soil is stained with DB blood, from DB victories. The DBs killed the First Age Solars. They are not inconsequential. They are heroes, just as much as the Solars, Lunars, and other Exalts.

You keep pounding that warrior spirit. I'll keep looking at the reality of the situation based on stuff like, how charms work and what a Solar can do verses a Dragon-Blood.

You know, reality.



Except they aren't and they won't be? Because Mnemnon Launches her Xanatos Gambit, and breaks the connection of a vast majority of DBs, and then leads a resistance force against her mother. Also, this does show why the whole 'weak Exalts' thing is moronic, given that the ED has spent so much time corrupting the DBs, when if they were truly all that weak, he could have just roflstomped them.

Yes. Because that's how the Ebon Dragon works. He rolfstomps them.He totally isn't the incarnation of trickery and betrayal, and totally can work outside of his themes.

Wait, no, he totally IS the incarnation of trickery and betrayal, and totally CAN'T think outside of those themes.

Now Malfeas? MALFEAS would roflstomp them. Except of course he can't. Because of the oaths.

The Ebon Dragon has to do what he does the way he does. It's what he is. It's all he is. And, luckily for him, the way he is is about the only way a Yozi will be freed. And when one is freed, the rolfstomp does begin.

[Tackyhillbillu]

Yes, because the South is void of anything Supernatural, and Paragon has no supernatural defenders. Nope, they don't hire outcastes, god-bloods, and have a Solar who serves the Perfect.

Because all that stuff? Is going to be a little kid caring a watering can compared to the Wildfire that is the Relclaimation.


Which of course, is why no one lives there, or why Nexus forces you to live there if you do. Wait, no, neither of those happen.

Yep. People live there willingly. Shows how awful the rest of Creation is by comparison.


Uh huh. Screwed because... why, you say so?

Because they don't have the forces to fight off the Fae, let alone the Reclaimation, and their Lunar masters regard them as a Petri Dish, not an actual breathing civilization.


....The only thing the Realm has going for it is the Sword of Creation. You do realize the Yozi's literally cannot enter Creation without being summoned due to the Solars and the pacts they made, yes?

And that the only reason the Ebon Dragon is doing this plan is because it's the only way he can freely enter Creation? And once he does the Realm is utterly screwed?

Also, the Neverborn and Deathlords are stupid. They all rub their hands and act cartoon villainous rather then banding together. If they wanted to, and actually worked at it, Creation would already be dead.

I do have to say though, your false faith in the Realm does mirror what the average citizen would think. So, bravo for thinking like a mortal in Creation.

No. I have faith in the DBs, who killed the First Age Solars? Who are stated as holding back the limitless onsalught of the Fae for a time. Who have the largest caches of weaponry, training, and skill in Creation.


*Cough*Fair Folk*Cough* (note, being saved by a weapon created by Solars does not mean the Dragonblood won. It means an act of desperation worked)

*Cough Cough* The fact that the Exalts managed to eat the Primordials doesn't mean the Incarnae won. It means an act of desperation worked. Also, Lookshy.


You keep pounding that warrior spirit. I'll keep looking at the reality of the situation based on stuff like, how charms work and what a Solar can do verses a Dragon-Blood.

You know, reality.

Reality, like how Peleps Deled can take the Iconic Solar Circle on alone, and win? Yeah. Get back to me on that.


Yes. Because that's how the Ebon Dragon works. He rolfstomps them.He totally isn't the incarnation of trickery and betrayal, and totally can work outside of his themes.

Wait, no, he totally IS the incarnation of trickery and betrayal, and totally CAN'T think outside of those themes.

Now Malfeas? MALFEAS would roflstomp them. Except of course he can't. Because of the oaths.

The Ebon Dragon has to do what he does the way he does. It's what he is. It's all he is. And, luckily for him, the way he is is about the only way a Yozi will be freed. And when one is freed, the rolfstomp does begin.

The Ebon Dragon... isn't as limited as you think. He isn't trickery and betrayal. Or, he isn't just them. The ED is spite. He hates everything. He desires to destroy it. Trickery and Betrayal are tools, and good ones.

And if the Realm is so weak... WHY SUBVERT IT? Why not choose one of these other shining bastions, or just use the Yozi Cultists and their Akuma? Oh wait, because the Realm isn't that weak. And could stomp the forces of the Yozi, barring the release of the Yozi themselves.

[Lucus Casius]

Clearly, you are all idiots, and do not see the true heroes of the setting.

The Fae.

Riding adorable ponies of magic and friendship, they weave dreams of glory, valor, and happiness for the benefit of themselves and mortals. Anyone who is not turned into a soulless mindslave would be overjoyed to be under their benevolent rule. They destroy the evil gods and Exalted in order to bring a divine new age of imagination.

Discuss.

[Yuki Akuma]

Dreamer Pony approves.

[Mikal]

Because all that stuff? Is going to be a little kid caring a watering can compared to the Wildfire that is the Relclaimation.


Uh huh. And this has what to do with the Immaculate Order how?



No. I have faith in the DBs, who backstabbed[/b] the First Age Solars [i]with lots of help from Sidereals and suffered horrific causalities doing so? Who are stated as being driven back with little effort from the limitless onsalught of the Fae. Who have the largest caches of weaponry, training, and skill in Creation.

Italics show where I fixed your quote.
As for weaponry, training, and skill, they scavenge that which their betters left behind, things which their betters can easily recreate within a year or so's time, by the book.



*Cough Cough* The fact that the Exalts managed to eat the Primordials doesn't mean the Incarnae won. It means an act of desperation worked.


...Yes, because the Primordial War totally was going against the Gods and Exalted, and only the effort of one of them stopped the Primordials and drove them back.

It totally wasn't a long war of hundreds of years where the Primordials were beat down and either killed, forced into oaths of servitude, or ran away.

They're completely the same (except they're not).


Reality, like how Peleps Deled can take the Iconic Solar Circle on alone, and win? Yeah. Get back to me on that.


Repeat after me: Comics aren't canon. Seeing as how there's nothing in the books saying he has, then he hasn't.

Also the Iconic Solar Circle doesn't mean they're the best Solar Circle. Or even a good Solar Circle.


The Ebon Dragon... isn't as limited as you think. He isn't trickery and betrayal. Or, he isn't just them. The ED is spite. He hates everything. He desires to destroy it. Trickery and Betrayal are tools, and good ones.


Except that he has to encompass all of his traits. He can't really turn one off. So, while full of spite and hate, he has to do things in a matter of trickery or betrayal.

Also, nothing you said in the quote above would mean he isn't as limited. All it means is he can't be nice. In fact... that limits him even more. So you're right. He isn't as limited as I thought. He's even more limited.



And if the Realm is so weak... WHY SUBVERT IT? Why not choose one of these other shining bastions, or just use the Yozi Cultists and their Akuma? Oh wait, because the Realm isn't that weak. And could stomp the forces of the Yozi, barring the release of the Yozi themselves.

Because the Realm has a ready made workforce of slaves thanks to Dynasty Charms, and he controls the idiot who wrote the Broken Winged Crane in an attempt for MOAR POWAH, a useful idiot who also controls the Sword of Creation, which, if you read the book RotSE, he has plans for.

If some other idiot wrote the broken winged crane, had lots of ready made slaves thanks to dynasty charms, and controlled something able to break the Ampholos, I'm sure ol' Ebby Draggy would have gone there.


Clearly, you are all idiots, and do not see the true heroes of the setting.

The Fae.

Riding adorable ponies of magic and friendship, they weave dreams of glory, valor, and happiness for the benefit of themselves and mortals. Anyone who is not turned into a soulless mindslave would be overjoyed to be under their benevolent rule. They destroy the evil gods and Exalted in order to bring a divine new age of imagination.

Discuss.

Feh. The Fae can't be the heroes. They're too genre savvy!

[Sanguine]

Lucus that is awesome.

Edit: Heroes can be Genre Savvy just look at Elan.

[Mikal]

Lucus that is awesome.

Edit: Heroes can be Genre Savvy just look at Elan.

I was being facetious :-p

[Sanguine]

I was being facetious :-p

Hard to tell sometimes with text.

[Yuki Akuma]

People don't tend to say "Feh!" when they're being serious, my sanguineous friend.

[Mikal]

People don't tend to say "Feh!" when they're being serious, my sanguineous friend.

You'll find the more flowery my prose, the less serious I am.
The more acerbic I am, the more serious I'm being.

Also, I'm not bloody :(

[Tackyhillbillu]

As for weaponry, training, and skill, they scavenge that which their betters left behind, things which their betters can easily recreate within a year or so's time, by the book.

Their Betters? The people that raped, killed and tortured them? Awesome definition there, buddy.

And I seriously doubt anyone can recreate the Legions without, you know, DBs. Since DBs are the best at mass combat, both in fluff, and in crunch.


...Yes, because the Primordial War totally was going against the Gods and Exalted, and only the effort of one of them stopped the Primordials and drove them back.

It was. In the early stages of the Primordial War, they lost all 10 of their Star Players (the Greater Elemental Dragons, who were all badly hurt, and the Original Elementals who all died.) The opening stages went poorly. The Incarnae only won because the Exalts were a homeroom.


Repeat after me: Comics aren't canon. Seeing as how there's nothing in the books saying he has, then he hasn't.

Also the Iconic Solar Circle doesn't mean they're the best Solar Circle. Or even a good Solar Circle.

Repeat after me. Scroll of Exalts stats. Peleps Deled destroys the Iconic Circle Solars. Hell, Ragara Myrrun could solo every Age of Sorrows Solar statted. At once.

[Sanguine]

You'll find the more flowery my prose, the less serious I am.
The more acerbic I am, the more serious I'm being.

Also, I'm not bloody :(

I'm the sanguineous friend, my username is Sanguine. Also I didn't see the "feh".

Anyway back on topic. We were discussing the heroicness of the Raksha. Is it all Raksha or a specific philosophy?

[Yuki Akuma]

Also, I'm not bloody :(

I wasn't talking to you.

Also technically speaking all shaped raksha are 'heroic' by the standards of Creation - they can affect the world.

[Mikal]

Their Betters? The people that raped, killed and tortured them? Awesome definition there, buddy.

Yes. Because that's all they did. They totally didn't create a near Utopia, and would have if not for the Curse.



And I seriously doubt anyone can recreate the Legions without, you know, DBs. Since DBs are the best at mass combat, both in fluff, and in crunch.


Hey I never said the DBs were useless. They're perfect cannon fodder for their betters.


It was. In the early stages of the Primordial War, they lost all 10 of their Star Players (the Greater Elemental Dragons, who were all badly hurt, and the Original Elementals who all died.) The opening stages went poorly. The Incarnae only won because the Exalts were a homeroom.


Uh huh. So the weapons that were planned to be used before the war, and were created in anticipation of the war and were always meant to be the weapons and main strike of the Gods... are an act of desperation. Uh.. huh.




Repeat after me. Scroll of Exalts stats. Peleps Deled destroys the Iconic Circle Solars. Hell, Ragara Myrrun could solo every Age of Sorrows Solar statted. At once.

I guess you neglected to read the part where I said Iconic Solars aren't really that strong compared to Solars that players can make, huh. :smallconfused:



I wasn't talking to you.


Lies. It's all about me!

[Guancyto]

It should be noted that the fae are only fighting to retake their homeland, which the Primordials cluttered up with all that icky order and causality getting in the way of literally infinite possibility. And although it's a bit meaningless to compare timescale because there used to be no such thing as time, it's nothing less than the absolute truth to say that the Raksha were Here First. :smallcool:

Now, only a few fae are truly committed to this. The really hard-line members of the Church of Balor are the only ones that have managed to keep the goal in sight in the face of overwhelming apathy and subversion.