Swordsage Dipping

[Lateral]

So, I'm building a stealth-focused character who's taking dips in a bunch of classes in order to be awesome. You know, as a thought exercise. I wanted to put in a Swordsage level or two, 'cause ToB dips are really effective, but I'm not really sure how dips with ToB work. What are the best levels to take dips? If I take two levels, should they be at the same time or spaced apart? Should I go levels 2 and 3 with the first two, and then maybe another when I'm higher leveled? I really have no idea what I'm doing here.

Thanks in advance!

@V: Wow, sarcasm. It's a thought exercise, I already said that. :smallmad:

[HalfDragonCube]

Maybe take wizard first lvl, sell the spellbook, and buy stealthy items with the resultant 1,100gp!

Does mean that you can't do much class-wise though...:smallyuk:

[Gnaeus]

So, I'm building a stealth-focused character who's taking dips in a bunch of classes in order to be awesome. You know, as a thought exercise. I wanted to put in a Swordsage level or two, 'cause ToB dips are really effective, but I'm not really sure how dips with ToB work. What are the best levels to take dips? If I take two levels, should they be at the same time or spaced apart? Should I go levels 2 and 3 with the first two, and then maybe another when I'm higher leveled? I really have no idea what I'm doing here.

Thanks in advance!

Best levels to take dips are the levels which give you odd initiator levels. Your initiator level = your Swordsage level + 1/2 your class levels in other classes. So level 5 is good. or level 9. The higher the level you take your TOB levels, the stronger the maneuvers you will be able to get, but the less benefit you will get from them over time. So if you are planning to play the character from 1-20, you should probably take your first ToB dip on level 1, 5, or 9. If you are just making a level 20 build as a thought exercise, go ahead and take them at 19 +20, so that you can take level 5 and 6 maneuvers.

[Lateral]

Well, it's a thought exercise (and not really meant for your standard dungeon crawl, more as an NPC assassin or thief character of some sort), but I was planning to make a 1-20 build with checkpoints at levels 5, 10, and 15, so I might as well dip at 5, 9, and... 15, maybe? 13? 17?

[Draz74]

Getting Level 5 maneuvers on a non-ToB-dominant build isn't all that great, anyway, because you won't have the prerequisites to get most of the good Level 5+ maneuvers.

If you're wanting, say, 2 Swordsage levels, then it makes sense to take them at Levels 5 and 8, or Levels 9 and 10. The first option will let you pick 6 maneuvers and a stance that are levels 1-2, and another maneuver and stance than can be level 3. If you wait until levels 9-10, then everything can be level 3 (except your first Stance, depending on the DM's strictness of reading the ToB text).

If you want a third Swordsage level, wait until level 15+. Then you can get Level 5+ maneuvers from it.

[Keld Denar]

Level 5 is typically when you take the first dip. That gives you an IL of 3 (4/2 + 1). This lets you pick from 1st and 2nd level maneuvers right off the bat. Cloak of Shadows and Shadow Step are the obvious winners for a stealthy SoaB.

If you take your first level at 5, the 2nd should come at 8 or 12. 8 gives you an IL of 5 (6/2 + 2) which enables 3rd level manevuers, and in particular, a 3rd level stance (Assassin's Stance YAY!). 12th gives you a 4th level maneuver (10/2 + 2 = 7), if you have your heart set on something like Pouncing Charge or Dancing Mongoose.

Most people don't dip more than 2 levels, simply because those 2 levels are SO frontloaded. You could stand to probably sneak in another 1-3 levels before 20 though if you want to harvest some other gems.

Remember, don't forget to count your previous Swordsage levels for their full IL. It wouldn't be 5 and 9 and 13, it would be 5 and 8 and 11 to get the same IL, for example.

[Draz74]

Good advice from Keld, except ...


12th gives you a 4th level maneuver (10/2 + 2 = 7), if you have your heart set on something like Pouncing Charge or Dancing Mongoose.

... Pouncing Charge and Dancing Mongoose are Level 5 maneuvers, not Level 4.

[Keld Denar]

How dare you correct my flawless...

Oh...look at that...errm...how embarassing. Move along...nothing to see here...

[Usher of Agony]

I have a question... I am working on a rogue/swashbuckler/swordsage build and i just want to know what lvl manuvers i can choose. here is my lvl progression so far

1 rogue
2 swashbuckler
3 rogue
4 rogue
5 rogue
6 swashbuckler
7 swashbuckler
8 swordsage
9 swashbuckler
10 swordsage

so at lvl 8 what is the highest manuver list I can pick from and what can I pick at 10th lvl?

from what i understand at lvl 8 i can pick manuvers from swordsage 5 and at lvl 10 i can pick manuvers from swordsage 7 is that right?

can you also recommend what manuvers I should take?

[CoffeeIncluded]

I have a question... I am working on a rogue/swashbuckler/swordsage build and i just want to know what lvl manuvers i can choose. here is my lvl progression so far

1 rogue
2 swashbuckler
3 rogue
4 rogue
5 rogue
6 swashbuckler
7 swashbuckler
8 swordsage
9 swashbuckler
10 swordsage

so at lvl 8 what is the highest manuver list I can pick from and what can I pick at 10th lvl?

from what i understand at lvl 8 i can pick manuvers from swordsage 5 and at lvl 10 i can pick manuvers from swordsage 7 is that right?

can you also recommend what manuvers I should take?

Assassin's stance, without a doubt.

[Usher of Agony]

Assassin's stance, without a doubt.

haha well i gathered that :P

[Ravitiate]

I have a question... I am working on a rogue/swashbuckler/swordsage build and i just want to know what lvl manuvers i can choose. here is my lvl progression so far

1 rogue
2 swashbuckler
3 rogue
4 rogue
5 rogue
6 swashbuckler
7 swashbuckler
8 swordsage
9 swashbuckler
10 swordsage

so at lvl 8 what is the highest manuver list I can pick from and what can I pick at 10th lvl?

from what i understand at lvl 8 i can pick manuvers from swordsage 5 and at lvl 10 i can pick manuvers from swordsage 7 is that right?

can you also recommend what manuvers I should take?level 8 is probably the least effective level to dip, because you have an initiator level of 4 (3.5 for non-swordsage classes, 1 for swordsage). Initiators on level 4 can only learn level 2 maneuvers. As said previously, pick up your first level at either 5 (level 2 maneuvers) or level 9 (level 3 maneuvers).

Can't really remember all, but these maneuvers are pretty good:
Good level 2 maneuvers; Cloak of Deception (obviously), Baffling Defense, Flashing Sun, Mountain Hammer
Good level 3 maneuvers: Mind over Body, Insightful Strike

[Draz74]

Eh, Assassin's Stance is overrated IMO. Not horrible by any means, but overrated. :smalltongue:

Anyway ... at Level 8, you have 7 non-initiator levels, which (rounding down) gives you IL +3. Together with your Swordsage level, that means you have Initiator Level 4, which means you can only pick maneuvers up to Level 2.

At Level 10, you have 8 non-initiator levels, which (dividing by half, but no need to round down this time) gives you IL +4. Together with your two Swordsage levels, that brings you up to Initiator Level 6. This lets you pick up Level 3 maneuvers at this point.

Note that you could take these same two Swordsage levels earlier -- at the earliest, one at Level 5 and the other at Level 9 -- without sacrificing any options from your menu of maneuvers available.

[Usher of Agony]

Eh, Assassin's Stance is overrated IMO. Not horrible by any means, but overrated. :smalltongue:

Anyway ... at Level 8, you have 7 non-initiator levels, which (rounding down) gives you IL +3. Together with your Swordsage level, that means you have Initiator Level 4, which means you can only pick maneuvers up to Level 2.

At Level 10, you have 8 non-initiator levels, which (dividing by half, but no need to round down this time) gives you IL +4. Together with your two Swordsage levels, that brings you up to Initiator Level 6. This lets you pick up Level 3 maneuvers at this point.

Note that you could take these same two Swordsage levels earlier -- at the earliest, one at Level 5 and the other at Level 9 -- without sacrificing any options from your menu of maneuvers available.

ok thanks I probably will change it so i have swordsage at lvl 5 and 9... still don't really know how to calculate the manuver thing but I kinda got the idea

[Ravitiate]

Take a look at this thread, it helped me a lot in understanding the mechanics of dipping a martial class:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871270/Tome_of_Battle_for_Dummies

[Usher of Agony]

would it be better to maybe dip into sword sage at lvls 9 and 10? that way i get manuvers from lvl 3?

would that be right?

half my character level for lvl 9 (8/2 + 1) = 5 IL - lvl 2 manuvers?
half character level for lvl 10 (8/2 + 2) = 6 IL - lvl 3 manuvers?

[Answerer]

Just noting that you should not fall into the trap of believing people who claim that you cannot take a stance of greater than 1st level at Swordsage 1 if you dip at higher initiator level. The rule in question states that you start with a single 1st-level maneuver, but "start with" is not a defined term and in any event is not equivalent to taking your first class level. This interpretation would make this case utterly unique within Tome of Battle, as in every other instance (non-stance maneuver at any class level, stance gotten through Martial Study or from higher class levels) would operate differently from this one case.

Not that Swordsage 2 is a bad level to take by any means, what with the Light Armor + Wis to AC thing, plus Assassin's Stance is far from the only stance worth knowing.

I tend to agree that Something 4/Swordsage 1/Something 2/Swordsage +1 works out neatly for everyone involved. You cannot get a 3rd-level stance at Swordsage 1 if your IL is only 3, of course, but there are 1st-level stances worth knowing, plus you spread things out nicely. But you also might consider Something 8/Swordsage 1/Something 2/Swordsage 1, particularly if you're starting at a higher level.

[Draz74]

would it be better to maybe dip into sword sage at lvls 9 and 10? that way i get manuvers from lvl 3?

would that be right?

half my character level for lvl 9 (8/2 + 1) = 5 IL - lvl 2 manuvers?
half character level for lvl 10 (8/2 + 2) = 6 IL - lvl 3 manuvers?

That is correct, except that 5 IL means you can get Level 3 maneuvers for the first dip.

Whether it's better depends on how many Level 2 maneuvers you want, vs. how many Level 3 maneuvers you want.

I tend to want quite a few Level 2 maneuvers (Baffling Defense, Cloak of Deception, Shadow Jaunt, Mountain Hammer, Rabid Wolf Strike, Emerald Razor are all good), but it's up to you.

[CoffeeIncluded]

So if I'm a Daring Outlaw roguebuckler who wants to dip Swordsage for assassin's stance and some nice lower level maneuvers (the only ones whose names I remember offhand are distracting embers and sudden leap), which levels should I dip? I'm already Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 2 and I kinda want to take Swashbuckler next level for insightful strike, as my INT score is rather high.

[Answerer]

You cannot get Assassin's Stance until IL 5, which, if you want to get it with your first Swordsage level, happens as at ECL 9, i.e. Something 8/Swordsage 1.

Two Swordsage levels net you Wis-to-AC-in-Light-Armor, and could allow you to get Assassin's Stance at ECL 8, optimally as a Something 4/Swordsage 1/Something 2/Swordsage +1.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Thanks, that's what I thought. What if I take Rogue4/Swashbuckler3/Swordsage2? Or take the second swordsage level later on? I'm thinking the second one might be a bit better idea.

[Answerer]

A Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 3/Swordsage 1 would have an IL of 4(.5), not the 5 necessary to take Assassin's Stance. At Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 3/Swordsage 2, you'd have an IL of 5(.5), which would then let you take Assassin's Stance then.

The half Initiator Level is weird, though; I'd be inclined to either take that first level of Swordsage a level sooner (e.g. Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3 to get Assassin's Stance at Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3/Swordsage 2) or a level later (e.g. Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 3/something 1, to get Assassin's Stance at Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 3/something 1/Swordsage 1).

But ultimately it's not really necessary; Swordsage is a good class and maybe you want two levels of it and also really want Uncanny Dodge.

[Darius Kane]

Inb4 thread lock

I like to dip Swordsage 2 for Shadow Hand maneuvers to qualify for Shadow Blade and also for Wis to AC.

[Answerer]

Inb4 thread lock
What on earth makes you suspect there will be one?

[Darius Kane]

Thread necro?

[CoffeeIncluded]

A Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 3/Swordsage 1 would have an IL of 4(.5), not the 5 necessary to take Assassin's Stance. At Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 3/Swordsage 2, you'd have an IL of 5(.5), which would then let you take Assassin's Stance then.

The half Initiator Level is weird, though; I'd be inclined to either take that first level of Swordsage a level sooner (e.g. Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3 to get Assassin's Stance at Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3/Swordsage 2) or a level later (e.g. Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 3/something 1, to get Assassin's Stance at Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 3/something 1/Swordsage 1).

But ultimately it's not really necessary; Swordsage is a good class and maybe you want two levels of it and also really want Uncanny Dodge.

Ah, thank you!