Extra 9th level maneuvers?

[cfalcon]

There's a 9th level Desert Wind maneuver that is a point blank aoe for like 100 points of damage.

But there's no OTHER 9th level Desert Wind maneuver.

In fact, there is exactly one per school.


Now, much like spells, you can create your own maneuvers, with DM approval. There's been a lot written on custom spells over the years, as spells are a permanent part of D&D, but 9swords is less so. But there's still pretty decent templating in the book, as to what, say, a 9th level Setting Sun maneuver could do- coming up with other maneuvers of any level that are comparable in power is not a rough task.

However, here's the bigger deal: because of the generally understood (and intended) limits on readying and learning maneuvers, adding say, 3 equally powerful 9th level Desert Wind maneuvers, you are still increasing the total power of a 20th level swordsage who has gone down that path- because he now can ready more total 9th level maneuvers (and without needing to chase down other paths as readily).


So my question is- is this list sparse DELIBERATELY? Or did they just not have the design space and room to do more than one per? In games that allow 9swords, is it common to add the maneuvers yourself, expect the players to do it, or just play the list as written?

[Firechanter]

The basic idea is that you're supposed to grab the 9th level maneuvers off multiple schools. You can always at least get the Stone Dragon one because that doesn't have prereqs. Designing your character so you qualify for 3 other 9th level maneuvers is part of the game of building a Martial Adept.

[cfalcon]

So if someone wanted a different fire-based 9th level desert wind maneuver (again, this is all hypothetical), you would allow him to research that, but then he would NOT get the one in the book?

In other words, you would keep the implied limit on magnitude, but allow for customization? Or just play straight as the list in the book states?

[navar100]

If you allow research of 9th level maneuvers, nothing stops you from having two 9th level Desert Wind maneuvers. There is no rule that says you can only have one 9th level maneuver from a particular discipline. The authors of the book just decided for whatever reason only to create one 9th level maneuver for each discipline.

The beauty of the book, though, is that you aren't The Suck if you don't even have any 9th level maneuvers before Epic, especially if you multiclass between two adepts evenly. You can get them even when you multiclass if you don't do it evenly.

[Firechanter]

TBH, so far there simply hasn't been any call for additional maneuvers in my environment for the lack of extensive practical play experience. (Usually you start asking for new stuff when you get bored of the old)

I suppose there's nothing that forbids developing more maneuvers, 9th level or otherwise, and nothing prevents the player from selecting multiple 9th level maneuvers from the same discipline when you have them.

As written, the ToB classes are Tier 3, which makes them better than any other dedicated melee class but still clearly inferior to core full casters. If you wanted to make them Tier 1, you'd probably have to roll Swordsage and Warblade into one (i.e. Full BAB, all good saves, Skills and Maneuver progression of the Swordsage, D12 HD and most of the Specials of both classes) and then some. However, that class will look very strong on paper so people will cry "Overpowered!!1!oneone", while the Wizard still gets away with his crappy-looking stat sheet while he Shapechanges to Solar, summons an army and proceeds to solo the campaign.

I'm saying this to assure you that you can certainly spice up the Adepts some more, for instance with extra level 9 maneuvers, without being in any danger of breaking the game (more than it is already broken).

[Runestar]

The maneuvers themselves fluctuate in effectiveness between lvs. There are 8th lv maneuvers arguably more useful than 9th lv ones, and some low lv maneuvers continue to remain viable even at higher lvs.

I certainly don't see the harm of being able to take more 9th lv maneuvers. The challenge would probably to be make them more distinct, rather than just a variant or souped up version of an existing maneuver.

If you ask me, they just plain ran out of page count and perhaps inspiration as well.