Adding Heal to Dread Necro

[Blackjackg]

I have a plan for a Dread Necro/Fleshwarper/Alienist build (vaguely Cthulhu-mythos inspired). Character would be human and chaotic evil. The problem is that in order to qualify for the Graft Flesh feat, which is a prerequisite for Fleshwarper, I need to have something like 15 ranks of Heal, which is not possible without Heal as a class skill.

As far as I can tell, there are three ways under the RAW that I could hit those ranks without sacrificing lots of DN levels and/or blowing double skill points:

1. Able Learner (RoD) + 1 level of a class that has Heal
2. 1 level of Human Paragon (UA)
3. Cosmopolitan feat (FRCS)

Any suggestions which of these would be the best choice, or if there is another option available under the rules as written?

[MammonAzrael]

Skill Knowledge (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6832.0) is technically a feat for an alternative skill system from Unearthed Arcana, but it should be fine to use to gain Heal as a class skill.

Draconic Heritage from Complete Arcane adds heal as a class skill if you choose Gold. It requires Sorcerer level 1st, and that can be gotten around by taking Dragontouched from Dragon Magic.

If you aren't wedded to being human, you can be a glimmerskin halfling, which always has Heal as a class skill. It is also in Dragon Magic.

[Urpriest]

If you aren't wedded to being human, you can be a glimmerskin halfling, which always has Heal as a class skill. It is also in Dragon Magic.

Similarly, if you can play an elf from Eberron you can take Aereni Focus to give you any skill, including Heal. Since they're a race obsessed with the dead (albeit the positive-energy dead) it kinda fits.

[Cog]

Draconic Heritage from Complete Arcane adds heal as a class skill if you choose Gold. It requires Sorcerer level 1st...
...And only adds it to your Sorc list.

[Thurbane]

...And only adds it to your Sorc list.
Able Learner fixes that.

Dragontouched (?) allows you to qualify for Sorcerer only Draconic feats, IIRC.

FWIW, I think Human Paragon is a solid choice.

[Cog]

Able Learner fixes that.

Dragontouched (?) allows you to qualify for Sorcerer only Draconic feats, IIRC.
To qualify for them, yes, but only for that purpose. You still don't have any Sorc levels, and thus Heal has never actually been a class skill for you - though it will be the moment you do take a level of Sorc.

[Amnestic]

Able Learner fixes that.

Dragontouched (?) allows you to qualify for Sorcerer only Draconic feats, IIRC.

Correct. CHA 11 pre-requisite, but you can take it at level 1. You get the Dragonblood subtype, a few minor bonuses and qualify for Draconic Heritage feats as a Sorcerer with class levels to your character levels (eg. a Fighter 5/Wizard 6 with Dragontouched would count as a Sorcerer 11 for meeting Draconic Heritage pre-reqs.)

[Thurbane]

To qualify for them, yes, but only for that purpose. You still don't have any Sorc levels, and thus Heal has never actually been a class skill for you - though it will be the moment you do take a level of Sorc.
I'm away from books at the moment, but from memory, that seems like a very strange reading of the feat(s) involved.

[Veyr]

Moreover, one feat is far too much to pay just to get a skill in-class, three is patently absurd.

Just ask your DM to be reasonable?

Also, for reference, the Alienist... is really not a good class.

[Veyr]

Moreover, one feat is far too much to pay just to get a skill in-class, three is patently absurd.

Just ask your DM to be reasonable?

Also, for reference, the Alienist... is really not a good class. It's a cool class, no doubt, but you sack your Wisdom score for the opportunity to remove all the good monsters from Summon Monster, and apply the Pseudonatural template to your familiar. This is... less than a good trade. I therefore further suggest that you continue the discussion with your DM by either replacing the monsters lost from Summon Monster with some similarly-awesome aberrations, or by getting some other class features that rock. Or, more likely, both.

[Cog]

You gain the dragonblood subtype. You gain 1 hit point, a (X) bonus on (certain skills), and a (X) bonus on saving throws against paralysis and sleep effects. In addition, you can select draconic feats as if you were a sorcerer of your character level.
The draconic feats qualification is only a small portion of the feat's benefit, and it is very explicitly only about selecting the feats.

In addition (to dragonblood subtype, qualifying for additional draconic feats, and assorted save bonuses), you gain the corresponding skill as a sorcerer class skill.
You're getting Draconic Heritage at all only as a secondary benefit of Dragontouched, and you're using it to get a secondary benefit of Heritage. On top of that, Draconic Heritage came before Dragon Magic, so it wasn't written with Dragontouched in mind (note that the dragonblood subtype benefit only got added to Heritage with the later reprintings).

[MammonAzrael]

Are you reading from an errata? Because I'm looking at the book right now, and the text is:


Choose one dragon from the Draconic Heritage list below and gain the indicated skills as a class skill.

No mention of it being restricted to your sorcerer level. In fact, the entirety of the feat mentions the sorcerer class only once: as a prerequisite. The class isn't mentioned at all in the Benefit section.

Edit: Ahh, I see. Dragon Magic printed an updated version of Draconic Heritage. Well, that is just stupid. I guess, by RAW, that option is now invalid.

[Tyndmyr]

I have a plan for a Dread Necro/Fleshwarper/Alienist build (vaguely Cthulhu-mythos inspired). Character would be human and chaotic evil. The problem is that in order to qualify for the Graft Flesh feat, which is a prerequisite for Fleshwarper, I need to have something like 15 ranks of Heal, which is not possible without Heal as a class skill.

As far as I can tell, there are three ways under the RAW that I could hit those ranks without sacrificing lots of DN levels and/or blowing double skill points:

1. Able Learner (RoD) + 1 level of a class that has Heal
2. 1 level of Human Paragon (UA)
3. Cosmopolitan feat (FRCS)

Any suggestions which of these would be the best choice, or if there is another option available under the rules as written?

2 is almost certainly superior to 1. You're spending a class level on something that isn't dread necro regardless. May as well save the feat.

Feat vs level...I'd probably burn the feat. If 3 is available and works, do that. If not, human paragon.

Note that the next two levels of human paragon progress spellcasting, so staying in it might be worthwhile for the feat and bonus stat. Depends entirely on how much you value that vs non-casting class features.

[Cog]

Edit: Ahh, I see. Dragon Magic printed an updated version of Draconic Heritage. Well, that is just stupid. I guess, by RAW, that option is now invalid.
I didn't even think to look at the CArc version, since I was looking at Dragon Magic anyway. I guess that explains the confusion. The DrMag version adds the dragonblood subtype, at least; it's not much use if you're using Dragontouched or the dragonblood Sorc racial sub to qualify, but at least it's a trade instead of being strictly worse.

Edit: I suppose after all this tangential chat I could offer a more direct answer. For something small like this, I'd just talk with my DM; with only 2+Int skills, there's a fair few class skills going to waste. Offer to trade in three or four of those to get just Heal in return; you're paying in potential versatility for a single reasonable benefit.

[Akal Saris]

Stupid fleshwarper and its stupid Heal ranks...

[Blackjackg]

Thanks for all the tips. A lot of cool ideas, but as some seem to have surmised, I'm hoping to minimize feat and/or class level expenditure on this. Glimmerskin Halfling is definitely an interesting choice, but it feels a little harder to justify, flavor-wise.


Also, for reference, the Alienist... is really not a good class. It's a cool class, no doubt, but you sack your Wisdom score for the opportunity to remove all the good monsters from Summon Monster, and apply the Pseudonatural template to your familiar. This is... less than a good trade. I therefore further suggest that you continue the discussion with your DM by either replacing the monsters lost from Summon Monster with some similarly-awesome aberrations, or by getting some other class features that rock. Or, more likely, both.

You're absolutely right about it not being a good class. Strictly a flavorful choice-- I kind of dig the idea of a character who's halfway to becoming undead, halfway to becoming an aberration and halfway to becoming an outsider [freaky]. Plus the opportunity to have an aberrant pseudonatural quasit familiar is too tempting to pass up. Interestingly, the character doesn't get the changes to Summon Monster, because it's not on the Necro's spell list-- I use Summon Undead to qualify for the Alienist class.

For the record, the build I'm looking at is Alienist 5/Fleshwarper 6 after at least 7 levels of Dread Necro (needed for familiar). I have to blow two feats at low levels to qualify for Alienist, and my 9th level feat to get Graft Flesh. As a human, that leaves me two class levels and two feats to play with to gain Heal as a class skill and to otherwise buff the character.

[The Cat Goddess]

Two levels of Human Paragon solve your problem... especially if you take the first one at level 1 and the second sometime after you start taking Dread Necro.

On the other hand, isn't there an Apprentice Feat for Heal?

[Veyr]

You're absolutely right about it not being a good class. Strictly a flavorful choice-- I kind of dig the idea of a character who's halfway to becoming undead, halfway to becoming an aberration and halfway to becoming an outsider [freaky].
I get that - that doesn't mean you can't just change something about the class so that it's actually worthwhile. And so you don't have to go through this whole rigamarole to qualify for Fleshwarper - just ask your DM to give you Heal, or change the prereqs. It's a really minor change, no reasonable DM should require you to burn three feats or miss your opportunity to get 9th level spells just for that. The Fleshwarper is far from a high-powered PrC in the first place.

I mean, as you said, you don't even have Summon Monster. So maybe ask your DM to allow you to apply Pseudonatural to undead you summon/animate/control? That'd go a long way to making Alienist actually worth something. Still not worth your Wis score, but that's part of the Alienist's flavor.


This is why we're playing a game with a flesh-and-blood human, rather than a computer: so that we can work together to make cool things. If you're going to play inflexible RAW, it'd be easier to just play an MMO. You have a cool character concept: why shouldn't you be able to do it? Sure, it's a little odd-ball, so the rules need a bit of finessing to make it possible, but if I were your DM I'd be delighted you'd made such a unique concept and be thrilled to work with you to make it work and be cool.

[Thurbane]

On the other hand, isn't there an Apprentice Feat for Heal?
Unfortunately not. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6832.0)

[Blackjackg]

This is why we're playing a game with a flesh-and-blood human, rather than a computer: so that we can work together to make cool things. If you're going to play inflexible RAW, it'd be easier to just play an MMO. You have a cool character concept: why shouldn't you be able to do it? Sure, it's a little odd-ball, so the rules need a bit of finessing to make it possible, but if I were your DM I'd be delighted you'd made such a unique concept and be thrilled to work with you to make it work and be cool.

One hundred per cent true, and thanks for the compliment besides. I guess I should apologize for omitting this fact from the previous posts-- I don't have a game currently, and this is strictly a hypothetical character for me. Part of the fun is making it work within the RAW. If I ever do get the chance to try it out, I'll certainly put my head together with my DM's and make something that'll be fun for everyone involved. Thanks for all your input, though. I hope it doesn't feel like it's gone to waste, because it certainly doesn't on my end.

[Escheton]

Do recall the plaha stating that class-skills are not set in stone. And that your character could have different class skills from the norm as written. Confer with your dm.