How do you get the Genesis spell/power? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Aspenor

2011-03-24, 09:57 PM

It was introduced in the epic handbook as a possible method for epic-level characters to get their own plane. It's not nearly as broken as some other spells though.

I fail to see how being able to make and customize your own plane, effectively making you invincible forever, isn't the pinnacle of broken.

Sydonai

2011-03-24, 10:29 PM

I fail to see how being able to make and customize your own plane, effectively making you invincible forever, isn't the pinnacle of broken.

It starts with base-line Prime traits, and doesn't let you change anything but composition. So if making an island in the Astral plane is broken.....

Sims

2011-03-24, 10:32 PM

It starts with base-line Prime traits, and doesn't let you change anything but composition. So if making an island in the Astral plane is broken.....

How bout an Island made of platniums and rubies! :D XD j/k

TroubleBrewing

2011-03-24, 11:31 PM

Sure, if you want. There are much, much better uses for it.

Sydonai

2011-03-25, 12:23 AM

How bout an Island made of platniums and rubies! :D XD j/k

......I hadn't thought of that. But it does cost XP to use......but it does grow over time....

Marnath

2011-03-25, 12:33 AM

It starts with base-line Prime traits, and doesn't let you change anything but composition. So if making an island in the Astral plane is broken.....

The power version maybe. But the arcane spell version does not include those clauses.

Sydonai

2011-03-25, 01:27 AM

Wizards are Tier#1, snaping reality in half is the point of 9th level spells.

Alleran

2011-03-25, 02:41 AM

You know, using Genesis allows you to create your own plane.

But how would you then get yourself complete morphic control over said plane? Let's do away with just mere spellcasting, how can you bend the very reality of the plane itself at your slightest whim?

TroubleBrewing

2011-03-25, 02:44 AM

I'm confused. Are you suggesting that you don't have said control over the plane you just created?

Alleran

2011-03-25, 02:50 AM

I'm confused. Are you suggesting that you don't have said control over the plane you just created?
You don't have morphic control. You controlled the planar traits when you created the plane, but once they're created, I'm pretty sure they're set in place. You can't create vegetation, roads, buildings, or anything like that either unless you do it "manually" (for lack of a better term).

Peregrine

2011-03-25, 05:16 AM

You don't have morphic control. You controlled the planar traits when you created the plane...

...and "morphic nature" is a planar trait. You can make your plane "highly morphic", changeable by force of will. (Of course, you can't limit it to being changed only by your will. For that, you need to attain deific status and make your plane "divinely morphic", keyed to yourself.)

Hypothetically, you could also go for "magically morphic", and specify that magic missile causes a shower of fist-sized rubies to erupt from the ground.

Unfortunately, there is no planar trait that impedes your DM throwing a book at your head.

Bogardan_Mage

2011-03-25, 05:28 AM

Genesis is a 9th level Arcane spell and a 9th level Psionic power. The power version is considerably more balanced - it explicitly doesn't allow the caster to add planar traits (such as fast time).
It explicitly doesn't allow the manifester to add time traits. Any other planar trait is apparently fair game. The inability to set a ridiculously one-sided flowing time trait does prevent the most popular abuses, though.

JaronK

2011-03-25, 05:41 AM

The arcane version says you can set the environment to be anything you can visualize... and Planar Traits are part of the environment. That's where it breaks like crazy, as the obvious combination of Timeless and Flowing Time [arbitrary value] is right there and available. Morphic itself is a trait too, so go nuts. You're only limited in that you can't make anything alive or constructed... but everything else is fair game (and once you've put in the Morphic trait, those earlier restrictions don't matter much).

The divine version of the spell is worded exactly the same, except at the end where there's a special note that says you can't mess with time traits. It's strange... it shows they understood how broken the original arcane version was (at least when it comes to time), but they never made an errata to fix it.

The Psionic Power, like the divine version, stops you from screwing with time. It's written differently in general.

JaronK

Alleran

2011-03-25, 07:40 AM

(Of course, you can't limit it to being changed only by your will. For that, you need to attain deific status and make your plane "divinely morphic", keyed to yourself.)
That's what I'm talking about ("How would you get yourself..."). A way to provide complete control, but only for you. Not for every single jumped-up adventurer with a superiority complex who wanders in the front door.

It could probably be done with a mythal (maybe), but I can't think how, unless you turned it into a prevalent power of said mythal and did an ad-hoc for the DC increase.

You're only limited in that you can't make anything alive or constructed... but everything else is fair game (and once you've put in the Morphic trait, those earlier restrictions don't matter much).
You can't change the Shape And Size trait. As far as I'm aware, anyway.

Eldan

2011-03-25, 08:28 AM

Aspenor

2011-03-25, 08:51 AM

Does it say "visualize"? Because you could argue that you can't really visualize time traits.

Yes, it does say "visualize." However, it is simple to visualize complicated conceptual things such as time traits. Basically, if you can think it, you can make the plane in that way.

Analytica

2011-03-25, 09:32 AM

Now I'm actually curious here. To my mind, it is clear that the designers never intended anyone to use Genesis for either becoming rich by selling gems, or by escaping into a flowing time pocket to rememorize spells during combat. They intended it for use to build prison planes or cool lairs, that kind of thing. It is also clear that the rules as written, presumably by oversight, allow all kinds of strange planar properties to be set.

From my perspective, the obvious DM response to this is simply to interpret the spell as working as presumably intended, making it non-broken. Often, however, I see people calling for spells like this to be banned. Does that mean that many DMs consider it better/easier/etc. to go by RAW and ban/nerf than to go by RAI?

Eldan

2011-03-25, 09:47 AM

RAI is a very mutable term. You don't really know what the designers intended. Very often (not just in this particular case) it's pretty obvious some of them either didn't know the rules very well, or just didn't think about the implications of things.
So it comes down to either ruling individually in every case the spell comes up, or making very extensive house rules about what traits you can or can not do. Which can be a lot of work, for just one spell that will rarely come up.

Sydonai

2011-03-25, 10:25 AM

That's what I'm talking about ("How would you get yourself..."). A way to provide complete control, but only for you. Not for every single jumped-up adventurer with a superiority complex who wanders in the front door.

It could probably be done with a mythal (maybe), but I can't think how, unless you turned it into a prevalent power of said mythal and did an ad-hoc for the DC increase.

You can't change the Shape And Size trait. As far as I'm aware, anyway.

"Perinarch" and "Perinarch,Planar" in the Planar Handbook. The first is a 3rd-Level arcane spell that lets you control Limbo, the second is a 9th-Level arcane spell that lets you control any Divenely-Morphic plane.

Alleran

2011-03-25, 11:02 AM

"Perinarch" and "Perinarch,Planar" in the Planar Handbook. The first is a 3rd-Level arcane spell that lets you control Limbo, the second is a 9th-Level arcane spell that lets you control any Divenely-Morphic plane.
Planar Perinarch is rather limited in application. My reading of the spell is that it functions in basically the same manner as Perinarch, which only permits "crude" manipulation, and can't be used to create anything particularly complex. Too, the effects you do create fall apart once you move away as well.

Marnath

2011-03-25, 03:20 PM

Sims

2011-03-25, 03:22 PM

Or you could just restrict entrance to the plane to yourself. Closed Plane, isn't it called?

Better yet, make a Plane where you're the only person that doesn't Disentegrate (with no saving throw)

Marnath

2011-03-25, 03:29 PM

Better yet, make a Plane where you're the only person that doesn't Disentegrate (with no saving throw)

...Yeah, I'm almost positive you can't do that.:smallamused:

Scorpions__

2011-03-25, 03:44 PM

It was introduced in the epic handbook as a possible method for epic-level characters to get their own plane. It's not nearly as broken as some other spells though.

It was updated in the back of Tome or Magic as well. Important to note because it adds the clause that you can't mess with the time traits. IIRC.

DM[F]R

olentu

2011-03-25, 07:28 PM

It was updated in the back of Tome or Magic as well. Important to note because it adds the clause that you can't mess with the time traits. IIRC.

DM[F]R

Are you sure I recall it was more like Word of Genesis since it was presumably one of the truename spells being a different spell from Genesis.

Alleran

2011-03-25, 08:25 PM

Or you could just restrict entrance to the plane to yourself. Closed Plane, isn't it called?
I'm looking at the list of planar traits right now, and nothing like that is there.

Marnath

2011-03-25, 10:37 PM

I'm looking at the list of planar traits right now, and nothing like that is there.

Hmm. I hadn't read that in a while, but I was sure someone on these boards suggested you could restrict entry to your demiplane. :smallconfused:

Alleran

2011-03-25, 11:15 PM

Hmm. I hadn't read that in a while, but I was sure someone on these boards suggested you could restrict entry to your demiplane. :smallconfused:
You can presumably do that by casting Dimensional Lock repeatedly across the demiplane (though that bars entry by you as well) or through Forbiddance, but you can't do it with the Genesis spell itself - there's no planar trait that permits it - since you don't have morphic control.

Marnath

2011-03-25, 11:20 PM

You can presumably do that by casting Dimensional Lock repeatedly across the demiplane (though that bars entry by you as well) or through Forbiddance, but you can't do it with the Genesis spell itself - there's no planar trait that permits it - since you don't have morphic control.

But as JaronK says, you can technically give it the morphic trait.

Alleran

2011-03-25, 11:23 PM

But as JaronK says, you can technically give it the morphic trait.
Which doesn't give you morphic control, though. Well, it does, but not you specifically. Any chump can do it.

Urpriest

2011-03-25, 11:57 PM

Hmm. I hadn't read that in a while, but I was sure someone on these boards suggested you could restrict entry to your demiplane. :smallconfused:

I had the impression that this was done by making the plane completely unenterable and then making a portal to the outside with yourself as the portal key. I'm not sure how the first step is achieved however. Anyone have more insight into this?

Marnath

2011-03-26, 12:02 AM

I had the impression that this was done by making the plane completely unenterable and then making a portal to the outside with yourself as the portal key. I'm not sure how the first step is achieved however. Anyone have more insight into this?

Possibly by spamming Dimensional Lock, as Alleran suggested? Can't think of another way offhand.

2xMachina

2011-03-26, 12:26 AM

Give it Sentient, and make it REALLY like you.

The entire plane is my ally! Muahaha!

I also like Enhanced magic. Nothing like Empowered Maximized and all other Metamagic applied onto all spells.

Alleran

2011-03-26, 12:39 AM

Give it Sentient, and make it REALLY like you.

The entire plane is my ally! Muahaha!
Unless you offend it somehow, at which point you'd better be able to Diplomance it.

Bogardan_Mage

2011-03-26, 01:01 AM

Give it Sentient, and make it REALLY like you.

The entire plane is my ally! Muahaha!
Even with Diplomancy, Sentient is just asking the DM to screw you over. For example, if you give it Flowing Time for 1-round spell and HP recovery, DM rules that it goes insane from years of loneliness that to you was just a few days :smalltongue:.

Peregrine

2011-03-26, 06:06 AM

Hmm. I hadn't read that in a while, but I was sure someone on these boards suggested you could restrict entry to your demiplane. :smallconfused:

It does come up a lot, because it's long been one of the cornerstones of the "high-level wizards are unkillable" theory... and I've never quite understood it either. You create a new demiplane coterminous with the Ethereal Plane (or "on" the Ethereal Plane, according to the divine version, which to my mind means coterminous anyway), so any ethereal traveller can stroll in (if they can find it).

Actually, comparing the arcane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis) and divine (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/spells/genesis) versions, I'm not sure the spell is as broken as has been commonly assumed. They're both worded almost exactly the same, and aside from the iffy "visualize" limitation, they both say you set "factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain". Me, I wouldn't say time and morphic traits are at all similar to those.

Which doesn't give you morphic control, though. Well, it does, but not you specifically. Any chump can do it.

Not you specifically, but you can at least keep "any chump" from altering your paradise by setting a skill or ability check that's so high, only a high-level wizard like yourself is likely to succeed. (Limbo's DC 16 Wisdom check is precedent, but isn't tough enough.)

JaronK

2011-03-26, 06:14 AM

Does it say "visualize"? Because you could argue that you can't really visualize time traits.

Consider the fact that as a Wizard you've been casting Haste since level 5. You've also been casting Slow and have Timestop. Do you really think you can't visualize alternate flows of time?

JaronK

Alleran

2011-03-26, 07:43 AM

Not you specifically, but you can at least keep "any chump" from altering your paradise by setting a skill or ability check that's so high, only a high-level wizard like yourself is likely to succeed. (Limbo's DC 16 Wisdom check is precedent, but isn't tough enough.)
I still don't know that I'd call that actual morphic control, though. For one, what you create while in Limbo eventually falls apart - it isn't permanent. I still think hand-waving a "mythal that gives it as a prevalent power" is probably the easiest way outside of divine rank, though it can't be done pre-epic (unless you get somebody with Epic Spellcasting to create the mythal for you).

HalfDragonCube

2011-03-26, 10:54 AM

Unless you actually tell someone about your plane, how are they going to know about it?

Some divination spells might help, but plane shifting there would still be a nightmare.

Also, why not set up hundreds of traps all over your plane designed to squish anyone but you and those you designate (usually your party)?

Alleran

2011-03-26, 11:03 AM

Also, why not set up hundreds of traps all over your plane designed to squish anyone but you and those you designate (usually your party)?
For one, it's not as cool as turning the structure of the plane itself against your enemy. :smallamused:

Peregrine

2011-03-26, 11:32 AM

I still don't know that I'd call that actual morphic control, though. For one, what you create while in Limbo eventually falls apart - it isn't permanent.

That's Limbo; "highly morphic" doesn't have to mean quite that unstable (though the other useful example of morphic traits, the magically-morphic Plane of Shadow, isn't a great one either).

I still think hand-waving a "mythal that gives it as a prevalent power" is probably the easiest way outside of divine rank, though it can't be done pre-epic (unless you get somebody with Epic Spellcasting to create the mythal for you).

Actually, if you're epic, then divinely morphic may just be good enough. You have to have godlike power, not actual divine ranks; that's probably in the rules to justify non-deity demon lords having morphic control of their own layers of Hell, but it means that any similarly powerful epic character should be able to qualify for their own "divinely" morphic demiplane.

Sydonai

2011-03-26, 12:28 PM

The Spell version creates the demi-plane in the Ethereal?
The Power version creates it in the Astral.

Barbarian MD

2011-03-26, 10:14 PM

I read where someone played an immortal character with astral projection. They set up their demiplane and made the floor out of the material component for astral travel. They sped up the flow of time so that 8 hours went by in one round. They used forbiddence or some such to completely lock the plane from entrance by another.

Bottom line: if they died, they recharged all of their spells and returned to te action in the next round.

Alleran

2011-03-26, 10:25 PM

Actually, if you're epic, then divinely morphic may just be good enough. You have to have godlike power, not actual divine ranks; that's probably in the rules to justify non-deity demon lords having morphic control of their own layers of Hell, but it means that any similarly powerful epic character should be able to qualify for their own "divinely" morphic demiplane.
It's actually "at least as powerful as lesser deities" for altering the Abyss, and the same for the Hells. I suppose it's possible, but it seems to fall into a DM-decides gray area. I wouldn't really call an epic character the equal of a lesser deity unless they'd gone a fair way into epic already.