[PF/3.5] The tanking cleric for real: advice needed

[Another_Poet]

Hi everyone,

After reading lots of threads about clerics tanking better than fighters, I decided to do it for real. In a PF Dark Sun game, I play a Mul Cleric of Fire. The stat rolls didn't favor me and I have Str 14, Wis 16.

This is a real game with a real GM and limited books. No theoretical optimization here. I can use most Completes and I am only level 4. I'm not looking for 20-level builds with a bunch of prestige classes.

I'm looking for advice on how to rock at 4th, 5th or 6th level as a cleric with Wis 16 who is meant to be the party tank.

I find that at this level, the low BAB and few spells per day still hurt. I wield a falchion 2-handed and my DM allowed me to take Divine Metamagic (Quicken) so I can quicken a spell per day. But my buffs are inferior to what the party psions could do and my melee is inferior to what a fighter/barbarian could do.

What am I missing? How do I bring a Cleric tank to bear in a real campaign?

[herrhauptmann]

First, rather than quicken, you want Extend, Persist, and DMM:Persist. Now you spend four turning attempts, and your buff lasts all day. I've heard that once you've DMM:Persisted your spell, you can then use extend (perhaps with a rod), to make it last 2 days rather than one.

The threshold level for the cleric as a melee is level 7 and 9, when you get your fourth and fifth level spells.
Righteous Might (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm) And Divine Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm)
You also want to Persist Vigor, free Fast healing 1, 3, or 5. Make it Mass vigor, and the whole party gets the benefit. Voila, no more out of combat healing, and precious little in-combat healing either.

Now that you're throwing around all these buffs, you'll need a nightstick or 4. OR the feat Extra Turning.

edit:
Wow, I wasn't ninja'd, and you're in the wrong forum. There's now a spot for 3.5 and Pathfinder questions. Just ask a mod to move it.

How is your combat ability inferior to the fighter and barbarian? Just in terms of total attack bonus? Until you get your buffs, that's going to happen. Their BAB is higher, and they've probably got higher strength. Once you've got those two spells up, that's not going to be an issue anymore.
Or is it your damage potential? Well a cleric can't keep up with a leap attacking shocktrooper combat brute in sheer damage potential. Don't sweat it. Let them deal as much HP damage as they want. This is their time to shine. Soon enough, your class features (Spells) well be doing everything that they're trying to accomplish by spending gold. And you'll have your own gold to spend too.

[Sarakos]

If you have the Pathfinder APG you might take a look at the Holy Vindicator Prestige class pretty much custom made for tanky clerics

[Another_Poet]

First, rather than quicken, you want Extend, Persist, and DMM:Persist.

What book is Persist Spell from? I'm not seeing it.


Now that you're throwing around all these buffs, you'll need a nightstick or 4. OR the feat Extra Turning.

I'm quite sure the DM won't let me get nightsticks because of abuse. I can take Extra Channeling (the PF equivalent of Extra Turning) however.

But if I need Extend, Persist, DMM Persist, and Extra Channeling that means 7th level before I can Persist 1 spell and 9th level before I can persist 2 spells. (Or I could retrain my 1st level feat to do this at 5/7 I guess).


Or is it your damage potential? Well a cleric can't keep up with a leap attacking shocktrooper combat brute in sheer damage potential. Don't sweat it. Let them deal as much HP damage as they want. This is their time to shine. Soon enough, your class features (Spells) well be doing everything that they're trying to accomplish by spending gold. And you'll have your own gold to spend too.

This is the problem... I'm the party tank. The only one. So "let the meat shield dish their massive damage" isn't a good solution for us, we have no meat shield. You say my spells will eventually make up for that, which spells do you suggest?


If you have the Pathfinder APG you might take a look at the Holy Vindicator Prestige class pretty much custom made for tanky clerics

Thank you, I'll take a look at it!

[erikun]

Hmm, it's been awhile since I build a Cleric. How are you proficient in the falchion? I'm not familiar with Pathfinder-specific rules; you would normally need a level in another class or the War domain (or spending a feat) to be proficient in it.

Orisons (0-level spells) can cover a lot of the daily utility for your character. Whether you choose detect/read magic or create/purify water will probably depend a lot of what you are doing for the day - giving them up for a quick point of healing can help out if you're dealing with bleeding rules of have another character facing negative HP. Beyond that, Bless, Entropic Shield (against ranged), Protection from Evil, Shield of Faith, Aid, Bull’s Strength, and Bear’s Endurance are all 1 min/level, which will probably last at least a couple of fights if the party doesn't dilly-dally with search checks and the like. Divine Favor is a +2 luck bonus to attack rolls and damage (unless you multiclass) but only last one minute; something like Sanctuary or Shield Other can help keep other characters alive longer.

If you have a wizard/sorcerer on your side, then convincing them to cast Enlarge Person can help with your damage output as well - as long as being large-sized isn't a major liability at the time.

Do you need a defensive wall so that others can deal damage, or does your party need a beatstick? Because if they are relying on you to do a lot of damage, focus more on those +to hit spells. If they merely need someone to keep guys off their backs, focus on the +AC spells. Make sure the bonus types don't overlap, either.

As for feats, you're looking at Quicken Spell and Divine Metamagic? Most DMM clerics are mid-level (7+) both so that they can have the feats necessary and the good spells to use them on. DMM is of less use at lower levels, and Quicken Spell isn't that impressive unless you need to toss out a buff or heal to a character RIGHT NOW. Most cleric buffs come up before the fight begins. If you aren't going for metamagic, I would think that Power Attack + Cleave would work very well. Don't bother with Great Cleave, but the basic Cleave can get you a good number of extra attacks that make it worthwhile.

You can multiclass out into a single level of fighter for proficiencies and a feat, although I wouldn't recommend more than that at this point. Every level of fighter drops the usefulness of your spells, and you generally won't get much benefit in return (unless your fights are always more than 5 minutes apart).

Note that you probably don't want to throw out all your buffs before the first fight - it will leave you mostly defenseless later. Spread them out a bit, both to other characters and for later fights.

[herrhauptmann]

Something I should've mentioned before. I've never played pathfinder. So differences in the two rulesets are going to cause minor problems. It's up to you to find them.

What book is Persist Spell from? I'm not seeing it.

Complete arcane, FRCS, and I think PGtF.



I'm quite sure the DM won't let me get nightsticks because of abuse. I can take Extra Channeling (the PF equivalent of Extra Turning) however.

But if I need Extend, Persist, DMM Persist, and Extra Channeling that means 7th level before I can Persist 1 spell and 9th level before I can persist 2 spells. (Or I could retrain my 1st level feat to do this at 5/7 I guess).

Try asking for just 1 nightstick. The abuse comes from stacking them. And sticking 10 of them in a bankvault saying they're "in your possession" so you can never lose them.
You use DMM:Persist, so that you're not burning your high level slots in casting first and second level buff spells. It lets you use your high level slots to cast high level buffs. But at the moment, you've only got 2nd level spells. So your buffs are not going to be awesome, or all day.
Thus, you must use your high wisdom to fight intelligently.



This is the problem... I'm the party tank. The only one. So "let the meat shield dish their massive damage" isn't a good solution for us, we have no meat shield. You say my spells will eventually make up for that, which spells do you suggest?

So who else is in the party? You mention psions. And you also referred to a fighter/barbarian, which is why I thought one was in the party. And could you give us your build? We can see you've got Quicken and DMM:Quicken. Beyond that, we know nothing besides the fact that you're level 4.
1)You're a cleric, and you're not taking Leap attack, you're not going to be dealing 1d8+40 damage in melee.
2)The tank's job isn't to deal lots of damage. The tanks job is to sit there and soak up LOTS of damage that might have been aimed at squishier party members. Fighters and barbarians tend to go leap attack so they can deal lots of damage, a way which lets them contribute to a fight by one-shotting an enemy. And they get to have fun, because sitting in a shieldwall keeping the guys behind you alive is NOT fun like killing the enemy would be.
3)I did mention a few spells. Click on the words that are colored oddly and underlined. They're links.
Your spells let you be a damage sponge. Your armor will give you a decent AC, which is still useful at this level (later levels miss chances are better). Thus, you are a tank. Not a cannon.
4)Right now, as a cleric, your total attack is only 2-3 points less than a fighter or barbarian would be. 1 point from BAB, 1-2 points from stat differences. That's not an insurmountable penalty. But you have to fight intelligently. Especially if no one else can do melee.
5)As a cleric, your damage potential is going to be worse than a fighter of your level because you don't have power attack, they likely would. But at this level, that's only a few points of damage per hit. If they were to power attack at all, their attack bonus would drop to lower than yours is.

If your defenses are really bugging you, try Luminous Armor from Book of Exalted Deeds. You'll need to prep a restoration of some sort, and be 'Good' to cast it though. It generates a glowing breastplate. A breastplate I'm told, that can be improved by a spell (Magic vestment) as if it were a standard PHB breastplate. Though the improvements end with your Luminous Armor spell. You're so shiny, it's hard to hit you in melee. And light-blind creatures take additional penalties fighting you. Such as drow.

[erikun]

Well, I've been looking over the spells (SRD only) for a specific selection you might be interested in. You mentioned being a "Mul Cleric of Fire", which doesn't really tell me much. I'll assume you're taking the Fire and War domains, specifically so that you can get proficiency in your Falchion. Without War, you'd need to burn a feat or multiclass out to use it effectively. Fire isn't bad (it isn't all that great, but not bad) and has a few nice choices.

Note that most DMs do not allow the use of elemental-turning to power DDM feats, so check with your DM if that's your plan.

Anyways: 4th level cleric, 16 Wisdom. That's 5 orisons, 4 1st-level spells (plus one domain), and 3 2nd-level spells (plus one domain).

Orisons: Create Water - Detect Magic - Light - Purify Food and Drink - Read Magic
1st-level spells: Bless - Divine Favor - Divine Favor - Protection from Evil - (Magic Weapon)
2nd-level spells: Aid - Bull's Strength - Bull's Strength - (Produce Flame)

The ones in parentheses are the domain spells. Just to give you an idea, Bull Strength + Aid (or Divine Favor + Bless) gives a +3 to hit and +3 damage, roughly the equilivant to having 20 STR on your character. And, of course, the spell selection allows you to do it several times a day. You can Bull Strength + Aid for the first combat, Bless + Divine Favor for the second, and Divine Favor + Bull's Strength for the third. Protection from Evil is there for defensive purposes, can be cast on others, and has some nice side bonuses. Shield of Faith is actually a higher +3 AC, but without the side benefits.

Magic Weapon was chosen as a domain spell because you're playing in Dark Sun, a campaign notorious for its lack of magical equipment. (It becomes an ace against anything otherwise resistant to mundane weapons.) If you do have magical weapons already, the Burning Hands works well enough as a close-range attack. Produce Flame can be used as a quick-burning torch and as a ranged weapon. The orisons are a mix of different utilities, mainly because I'm not expecting a wizard on your team (again, Dark Sun campaign).

If you do have a front line fighter - I believe Barbarian was mentioned - then the spell list can be shuffled a bit. Bull Strength is still the recommended buff, although Divine Favor is far less useful. You'll probably want to focus more on keeping Protection from Evil / Shield of Faith active, so that you can specialize in high AC and being in the way. (Or perhaps just buff the barbarian with those spells, so he takes less damage.)

--

Your 4th level cleric, 14 Strength and Weapon Focus (Falchion) with a basic weapon:
+6 to hit, 2d4+3 damage
+9 to hit, 2d4+5 damage (Bless + Divine Favor)
+9 to hit, 2d4+6 damage (Bull Strength + Aid)
+10 to hit, 2d4+8 damage (Divine Favor + Bull's Strength)
And an extra +1 to all of them if Magical Weapon is active.

[Another_Poet]

Erikun & others, thank you, that is super helpful.

In response to guestions about my build: he is 6th level now. Here he is:

Falco Degas
Race: Mul
Alignment: NG
Class: Cleric 6
Domains: Fire and Luck
Special: GM allowed Falchion to be the sacred weapon of Fire, that is how I got proficient.

Feats
L1: Weapon Focus (Falchion)
L3: Quicken Spell
L5: Divine Metamagic (Quicken)

Channels per day: 5 (so 1 quicken per day)

Rest of the Party:
Elan Wilder 6
Human Psion 6
Human Spellthief 6 <-we flank together, & she Enlarges me
Human Druid 6 <-often does not show up to play


It looks like my to-do list includes the following then:

Ask to retrain Quicken Spell to Extend Spell
Retrain Divine Metamagic to Persistent Spell
At 7th level take DMM Persistent Spell
Ask if the GM would consider making a nightstick available
Plan my spell usage better
Boost my Charisma so I get more channels per day


Weapon Focus was great at 1st level but lacks oomph now... maybe I can retrain that too and get DMM Persistant right away.

[Tyndmyr]

Knowledge Devotion is solid, if you lack hittingness, and have extra skill points floating around.

Leadership is always a fantastic feat. I enjoy selecting a bard as my minion. This is likely something the rest of the party will enjoy as well.

Note that when he's not actually playing, he can be buffing you.

[herrhauptmann]

Knowledge Devotion is solid, if you lack hittingness, and have extra skill points floating around.

Leadership is always a fantastic feat. I enjoy selecting a bard as my minion. This is likely something the rest of the party will enjoy as well.

Note that when he's not actually playing, he can be buffing you.

QFT
With knowledge devotion, you get a minimum of a +1 to attack (and damage?) something based on how well you roll your knowledge skills. The appropriate knowledge skills for each creature type are listed in the Knowledge section of the skills, at least for 3.5. Like undead are religion, aberrations are dungeoneering (I think), dragons are arcana, etc.

A problem with leadership, your cohort isn't a pack mule you order around. It's an NPC with his own wants and desires, some DM's don't like allowing cohorts because it makes a lot more work for them. Plus losing your cohorts all the time means that your next cohort will be weaker (lower leadership score), and thus more likely to die.

[erikun]

Extend Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#extendSpell) - Persistent Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#persistentSpell)

Most DMs who allow minor feat retraining will only allow you to retrain feats that you character hasn't (generally) used. That is, they'll probably be okay with you retraining Quicken. as you probably haven't used it much at all. but not Weapon Focus, which has probably gotten quite a bit of use. Don't get your hopes up too much.

Don't be afraid to buff up the defenses on that spellthief in your party. He won't get much out of Strength buffs, but I'm sure he'd appreciate a +3 AC when moving into a flanking position.

The Knowledge Devotion feat is a very good choice, giving you at least a +1 to attack and damage regardless of the roll. I would doubt that your DM is willing to allow you to retrain domains, although it never hurts to ask. Leadership is definitely something you'd want to talk over with the DM and players before taking, given that it adds a permanent NPC to the party that will likely suck up XP and require extra managing.