Mountain Giant - CR 26?

[ffone]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20020802

Also in Monster Manual II

I realize it's a pasttime around here to complain about MM2 challenge ratings. My goal, more specifically, is to ask about the mountain giant and get specific advice - my gut reaction is it looks kind of easy at CR 26. Its attack is 'only' +30 and its AC is 'only' +31. Its Reflex and Will are only +10.

A great wrym red dragon in also CR 26, has better attack/AC/HP/saves, flight, and probably a much higher-damage full attack. And of course it has all the dragon abilities (sorcerer casting, some immunities, etc.)

This question is in a 'low optimization' context. I realize 26th level PCs should be expected to use Fly a/o Freedom of Movement a/o Gr. Invis to keep away from the mountain giant's improved grab etc. and pelt it with arrows or spells from hundreds of feet in the air while invisible - but aside from that (say it had a sorcerer buddy cast Fly and Haste and Blindsight or whatever on it) its "numbers" just don't seem that high for a CR 26 beatstick.

Any suggestions on what its CR should be and/or what level it might be OK to send it against a low-optimization party? (As a DM I'm fine with handing out extra XP from using an inflated CR, but I don't want to TPK them by using it TOO early). Assume the party won't have the open space to fly or stay at extreme range, a/o that the guy will be packing a better ranged option, like a Colossal longbow and/or Quick Draw and a bag of holding of boulders so he can do ranged full attacks (and that feat to use his Str mod for thrown weapons).

Also it appears to lack a few feats..did 3.0 have different feat rules for racial HD?

[tyckspoon]

Hard to say, because it's a deeply flawed monster. Note that its Will save is only +10 and it has no immunities or special protections, which means its easy, easy bait for any of the myriad of Will save-or-loses.. just for example, a Dominate Monster cast at the lowest possible DC (10+9+4 for necessary casting stat) has better than a 50% chance of capturing it as your servant. One that you will actually *see* from a high-level or Epic caster (casting stat 30+) will be in anything-but-a-20 territory.

I suppose if you have no other option but to actually fight it, then it might be worth 22-23 or so.. but any Epic party should have the resources to avoid doing that and instead attack the Colossal holes in its defenses (pitiable touch AC, very weak Reflex and Will saves, very low mental stats.. any kind of ability damage will put it down quickly.) If you have a caster or even just a party member who can fake it adequately well, you win.

Edit: Heck, even if you do have to actually fight it the only thing that would be a particular problem for even a 'low op' Epic party is chewing through its HP. Although it'll be a bit more dangerous if you recalculate its attacks to what they actually should be- 30 Giant HD + 43 Strength should yield a to-hit of 38.

Double Edit: Mind, if you do want it to be a more effective fight, giving it its treasure as primarily useful wearable items is always helpful. Epic treasure value per encounter is enough to put some pretty nice stuff on him.

[ffone]

Agreed. If the party has a Dominate Monster caster (or possible even Suggestion or Charm Monster and should good Diplomacy / roleplaying), the mountain giant is almost like "treasure" for the party (a servant).

Using its treasure to gear it up like you would a high level NPC (wings of flying, blindsighted weapon, ring of FoM, and something for its Will save - maybe an item that casts Mind Blank 1/day) is a nice suggestion.

Or rather than wings of flying, a phoenix cloak (cheaper, better maneuverability, and fly speed = land speed instead of 60', which in this case is 80').

Thanks for noticing its attack mod was wrong! Edit: it's b/c of the -8 size penalty that it's 30.

[TroubleBrewing]

I'd say high CR 17 at best. Using the WotC-recommended party (wizard, fighter, rogue, cleric) as a baseline for average party optimization level, I'd say that as long as you've got a full caster in the party, you'll be ok. Against a party of all melee fighters, though... It might actually be CR 26.

[weenie]

The Tarasque is CR 20 and would eat this whimp for brekfast. It doesn't deserve a CR higher than 15.

[Eldan]

Well. Compare a level 26 human fighter with items.

AC: Giant: 31. Fighter: +8 from mithral full plate, +2 from dex, +5 from enhancement bonus, +4 from shield, +2 deflection is already the same. And that's cheap equipment. He can probably get much, much higher.

Hit Points: Giant 525. Fighter: 26d10 (average 143), 26*constitution bonus. He'd need a +15 constitution bonus to match the giant, that's a 40. So he'll probably have less.

Attack: Giant +30. The fighter has +23 base attack. He should have about 24 strength from levels alone, if he put it all in strength. With a +6 magic item, he's at 30 strength, that's a +15. +1 from magic sword, +2 from feats. So, we're are at +41 already. If he can get a buddy to cast Greater Magic weapon and a few other things... not really worth contemplating anymore. He'll hit the giant without trying, really.

Fortitude: Giant has +30. Fighter has +14 base bonus, plus his constitution and most likely +5 from magic. Probably lower in the end.

Other saves: Giant has +10. Fighter has +8 base bonus. +5 from item is +13, plus his ability scores. Fighter wins.

Others: the giant has 7 feats. The fighter has 14 fighter bonus feat including epic ones, 1 human bonus feat, and 8 normal feats from levels, including two epics. The giant wins on grapple and reach, plus he can throw stones. Fighter still has money left over for various magical items.

Conclusion: if the fighter can get around grappling somehow, probably by freedom of movement, he could probably win this.

So, no, that's not a CR 26.

[Firechanter]

I suppose my level 18 Warblade could take it one on one with no other buffs than GMW and maybe regular Invisibility. In one round.

[LordBlades]

It has only 10 dex, anything with Shivering Touch eats this dude for breakfast.

[Ossian]

It has only 10 dex, anything with Shivering Touch eats this dude for breakfast.

I'm curious. So, a 565 HP damage output dished out in 6 seconds? :smallamused:

[LordBlades]

I'm curious. So, a 565 HP damage output dished out in 6 seconds? :smallamused:

Shivering Touch, also known as 'the dragon killer' (stupid dragons that is) is a touch spell that deals 3d6 dex damage. Without any effort (metamagic) put into it, it has about 50% chance of reducing the mountain giant to 0 Dex.

Not that 565 DPR is that hard to get. Most optimized uberchargers can do that by level 10 with ease.

[Runestar]

Enworld pegged it at cr16 max. This thing is clearly way weaker than a titan (cr21). Personally, I would use a death giant (MM3), way sexier and should offer a more exciting fight overall.

At least it still has steadfast determination going for it. :smallamused:

[Firechanter]

I'm curious. So, a 565 HP damage output dished out in 6 seconds? :smallamused:

Typical route is Shock Trooper + Leap Attack + Valorous Weapon, which so far already gives you triple Power Attack bonus at no Attack penalty and double total damage on a Charge. Plus Pounce Ability (which lets you make a Full Attack on a Charge, though at level 10 that's still only 2 attacks), and stuff like Whirling Frenzy (giving you an extra attack).

There's even more situational stuff to pile on top. Presuming you encounter Mountain Giants in, well, mountains, you could put Battle Jump to good use, attacking from above for another total damage multiplier.

I'm in fact not quite convinced a level 10 charger can reliably inflict 565HP damage vs. AC 31 on a single charge, but I cba to do the maffs and wouldn't entirely rule it out, either. It's definitely not a problem by level 15 or so.

However, the M.G. has 25' Reach, so even with Grapply immunity you need to make sure the giant doesn't get an AoO which he might use to Trip you as you charge in to striking distance.

[Eldan]

Hmm. Splitting bow and sneak attack? That should handle reach. Probably still a bit low on the damage output.

[Thefurmonger]

A lot of this (as already pointed out) can be fixed by looking at what loot at creature of it's CR gets and useing it to fill the holes in his defences.

[Sims]

Maybe its a typo and the challenge rating is 6? >:D

[LordBlades]

Typical route is Shock Trooper + Leap Attack + Valorous Weapon, which so far already gives you triple Power Attack bonus at no Attack penalty and double total damage on a Charge. Plus Pounce Ability (which lets you make a Full Attack on a Charge, though at level 10 that's still only 2 attacks), and stuff like Whirling Frenzy (giving you an extra attack).

There's even more situational stuff to pile on top. Presuming you encounter Mountain Giants in, well, mountains, you could put Battle Jump to good use, attacking from above for another total damage multiplier.

I'm in fact not quite convinced a level 10 charger can reliably inflict 565HP damage vs. AC 31 on a single charge, but I cba to do the maffs and wouldn't entirely rule it out, either. It's definitely not a problem by level 15 or so.

However, the M.G. has 25' Reach, so even with Grapply immunity you need to make sure the giant doesn't get an AoO which he might use to Trip you as you charge in to striking distance.

Lvl 10 example: Water orc whirling frenzy lion totem barbarian 2/fighter 4/frenzied berserker 4 on a flying mount wielding a valorous lance
Feats of note: power attack, leap attack, shock trooper
bab: 10
Str: 18 (base)+4(racial)+4(rage)+6(frenzy)+4(item)=36

Damage (with a +1 Valorous lance): 1d8+20(str+weapon)+40(power attack)=1d8+60, all damage quadrupled on a charge(valorous weapon+lance+spirited charge);

Average damage per attack: 4d8+240=258

Attack bonus: 10(BAB)+13(str)+1(weapon)+2(charge)-2(whirling frenzy)=+24/+24/+19

Needs to roll 7/7/12 to hit with all attacks, and if all 3 hit, it's 774 damage.

[Eldariel]

They are basically "loses to Freedom of Movement monsters". They also aren't that much tougher than Colossal Scorpions stat-wise, while having much inferior defenses (notably no mind-affecting immunity); I'd say by MM1 standards CR 12 is a fair bet. Though the "Summon Giants"-ability probably raises them to CR 13 or 14. There's no way that thing is even as dangerous as Tarrasque (though at least it has a ranged attack).

Amusingly, their Effective Character Level for PCs is somewhat more sensible than most; they're only considered level 25 characters in spite of 30 HD so I suppose they have like negative LA or something. I dunno what but I like it. They also have that strange line about having EHD like a huge creature, whatever that means.

[Firechanter]

Thanks for the numbers. The problem here is that you assume that all 3 attacks connect, when in fact the statistical average is 1,85 hits. Round that up to 2, and you realistically deal 516 damage on your Pounce. But if our brave little charger isn't alone, his squaddies should be able to contribute the remaining ~50HP before it's the Giant's turn.

(Although I also have to say I wouldn't want a Frenzied Berserker in my group, or even a player who is willing to risk killing his teammates to get a higher damage output.)

[Eldariel]

Thanks for the numbers. The problem here is that you assume that all 3 attacks connect, when in fact the statistical average is 1,85 hits. Round that up to 2, and you realistically deal 516 damage on your Pounce. But if our brave little charger isn't alone, his squaddies should be able to contribute the remaining ~50HP before it's the Giant's turn.

(Although I also have to say I wouldn't want a Frenzied Berserker in my group, or even a player who is willing to risk killing his teammates to get a higher damage output.)

Lord forgot that Frenzy grants an extra attack á la Haste... He also forgot that Whirling Frenzy precludes using other forms of Rage too tho; which raises interesting questions as to FBs being forced into Frenzy while Whirling Frenzying. Are you immune to Frenzying while Whirling Frenzying? Boots of Speed would also accomplish the same tho, getting you an extra attack to delivereth the smackdown.

[LordBlades]

Thanks for the numbers. The problem here is that you assume that all 3 attacks connect, when in fact the statistical average is 1,85 hits. Round that up to 2, and you realistically deal 516 damage on your Pounce. But if our brave little charger isn't alone, his squaddies should be able to contribute the remaining ~50HP before it's the Giant's turn.

(Although I also have to say I wouldn't want a Frenzied Berserker in my group, or even a player who is willing to risk killing his teammates to get a higher damage output.)

Practically any Frenzied Berserker I've ever played with had Iron Heart Surge. You can do it without FB anyway. In the long run Runescarred Berserker is a much better PrC choice. also, if you bump that FB build to lvl 11, it gains an extra attack, and the Power Attack multiplier goes from x4 to x6.

EDIT: @ eldariel: forgot about that sorry:( was just a build I made quickly away from books. Just drop to normal Rage then. you still get 1 extra attack from Frenzy. Numbers don't change much; it's just an extra +2 to all attacks.

[Eldariel]

EDIT: @ eldariel: forgot about that sorry:( was just a build I made quickly away from books. Just drop to normal Rage then. you still get 1 extra attack from Frenzy. Numbers don't change much; it's just an extra +2 to all attacks.

Heh, it's NP; was just pointing out the fineprint on those abilities since I've had to deal with it more than once. You're quite likely to one-round it with Whirling Frenzy and Boots of Speed; you do lose out on the Frenzy-buffs but it's easy enough to find comparables and getting that extra attack does help out.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Any caster over level 9 can take this down solo with Fly + Orb blasting (Greater Mirror Image to prevent getting hit by a rock), much less abusing it's pathetic Will save. Glitterdust and Slow, then proceed to curb stomp. That's without Dominate abuse.

[Keld Denar]

How is your hypothetical barbarian using Leap Attack during a mounted charge?

Don't get me wrong, I think this is horribly under CRed too, but that example character isn't getting it done in 1 round.

[Flickerdart]

How is your hypothetical barbarian using Leap Attack during a mounted charge?

Don't get me wrong, I think this is horribly under CRed too, but that example character isn't getting it done in 1 round.
Polymorph into a Centaur?

[Runestar]

Bottom line, I think it is just a giant bag of hp. That coupled with its lack of attack options, makes it all the more easy to disable or work around. You could just maze it and be on your way! :smalltongue:

That said, it is 3.0. If it were designed using 3.5 principles, it would surely have tougher physical stats and a lower cr.

For example, in 3.0, the titan had 37 str, 23con and AC22. In 3.5, they were upgraded to str43, 39con, AC38. Plus, for the same cr26, you could have a titan advanced to 30 HD or a great wyrm red. :smallannoyed:

[ffone]

Lvl 10 example: Water orc whirling frenzy lion totem barbarian 2/fighter 4/frenzied berserker 4 on a flying mount wielding a valorous lance
Feats of note: power attack, leap attack, shock trooper
bab: 10
Str: 18 (base)+4(racial)+4(rage)+6(frenzy)+4(item)=36

Damage (with a +1 Valorous lance): 1d8+20(str+weapon)+40(power attack)=1d8+60, all damage quadrupled on a charge(valorous weapon+lance+spirited charge);

Average damage per attack: 4d8+240=258

Attack bonus: 10(BAB)+13(str)+1(weapon)+2(charge)-2(whirling frenzy)=+24/+24/+19

Needs to roll 7/7/12 to hit with all attacks, and if all 3 hit, it's 774 damage.

Hmm, does Pounce overcome the mount-specific rule that you can't full attack after using the mount's movement to reach the foe?

Also, this was said above - but I don't think Leap Attack and a mount are compatible (there are like 20 old threads on people talking about jumping off their mount midcharge - but the consensus of those seems to be that it's not RAW).

Don't get me wrong, nice build generally (dare I say "the" build that ubercharge threads converge on?) but I'm wondering.

[faceroll]

Also it appears to lack a few feats..did 3.0 have different feat rules for racial HD?

Yes. Look in the front of your MM2, I think it should have the 3.0 rules for monstrous HD and feats. Fey, for instance, got 1+int bonus feats.

[LordBlades]

Hmm, does Pounce overcome the mount-specific rule that you can't full attack after using the mount's movement to reach the foe?

Also, this was said above - but I don't think Leap Attack and a mount are compatible (there are like 20 old threads on people talking about jumping off their mount midcharge - but the consensus of those seems to be that it's not RAW).

Don't get me wrong, nice build generally (dare I say "the" build that ubercharge threads converge on?) but I'm wondering.

I think Pounce overcomes the general limitations placed om mount movement because it's a more specific rule (and specific trumps general).

In regards to Leap Attack, I've never seen anything RAW that prevents you from jumping off your mount mid-charge(not saying that there isn't, though, just that I haven't found it yet).

[Keld Denar]

If you jump off your mount, you are no longer mounted when you attack, and thus don't get your lance multiplier. If your mount jumps, its not YOU making the jump and thus you don't get the multiplier.

You can't Leap Attack with a mount and get the bonuses from both.

[Z3ro]

I think Pounce overcomes the general limitations placed om mount movement because it's a more specific rule (and specific trumps general).


That's a questionable interpretation of specific and general. The mounted rules clearly specify a limitation on movement mounted, while pounce references movement on a charge. Which is more specific? There's no clear-cut answer.

[LordBlades]

That's a questionable interpretation of specific and general. The mounted rules clearly specify a limitation on movement mounted, while pounce references movement on a charge. Which is more specific? There's no clear-cut answer.

Therefore I think. In my group we ruled it this way, although it might be interpreted the other way as well and still be correct.

@ Keld Denar: the Spirited charge text says: 'When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance)' There is no clear specification whether you need to be mounted at the moment you start your charge or at the moment you attack. Guess it never occurred to the designers somebody would want to dismount mid-charge.

[Firechanter]

Well, considering that you deal the damage at the end of a charge and not at the beginning, it should go without saying that you also need to be mounted at the time you want to reap the damage bonus. I really don't see how there can be any doubt about that.

Killing cat-girls: damage is connected to momentum, which is a function of mass and velocity. The mass in question is the combined mass of you and your mount. If you dismount, you give up that bonus mass. Since D&D does not give you bonus damage for charging real fast on your own feet, no damage bonus for you if you're no longer sitting on your mount's back.

[LordBlades]

Well, considering that you deal the damage at the end of a charge and not at the beginning, it should go without saying that you also need to be mounted at the time you want to reap the damage bonus. I really don't see how there can be any doubt about that.

Killing cat-girls: damage is connected to momentum, which is a function of mass and velocity. The mass in question is the combined mass of you and your mount. If you dismount, you give up that bonus mass. Since D&D does not give you bonus damage for charging real fast on your own feet, no damage bonus for you if you're no longer sitting on your mount's back.

I never said it was very logical, only that it was RAW. By logic Leap Attack gives you extra damage because you jump high in the air and drop on your target with more force. So logically, it should work regardless you get propelled by your own Jump check or a mount's

[Firechanter]

If your mount has the Leap Attack feat, then yes, it would work.

[herrhauptmann]

If you jump off your mount, you are no longer mounted when you attack, and thus don't get your lance multiplier. If your mount jumps, its not YOU making the jump and thus you don't get the multiplier.

You can't Leap Attack with a mount and get the bonuses from both.
You can, if you ARE your mount. Some tauric shaped creature, Bariaur are my favorites for this. Though I think an elf/deer tauric template would work pretty well too. Just be a little low on strength.

If your mount has the Leap Attack feat, then yes, it would work.

But then, the mount needs to be making the attack, not the guy on its back with the pointy stick.

[Cog]

Is there any precedent for centaur types counting as their own mounts? Besides the CharOp history, that is.

[herrhauptmann]

One of the inevitables from the SRD/MM1. It gets to use mounted combat feats. So by extension, anything with that body shape should get it.

There might be soemthing listed in Askt he Sage, or FAQ which states it explicitly, but I haven't seen it. I also haven't seen anything which said outright "No" besides some DMs not liking the idea.

[Eldan]

Though a lot of Sage Advice is best ignored, really. Like the FAQ; sometimes.

[lord_khaine]

Practically any Frenzied Berserker I've ever played with had Iron Heart Surge. You can do it without FB anyway. In the long run Runescarred Berserker is a much better PrC choice. also, if you bump that FB build to lvl 11, it gains an extra attack, and the Power Attack multiplier goes from x4 to x6.

Seems you have missed the clause in IHS about needing an action to activate?

That means it cant be used by someone in frenzy.

Unless of course, you would mean getting attacked by a frenzied berserker was a condition you wantet to remove though IHS :smalltongue:

[herrhauptmann]

Unless of course, you would mean getting attacked by a frenzied berserker was a condition you wantet to remove though IHS :smalltongue:
Don't need IHS to end that condition. Getting hit by the FB will do the trick too. :)

[ffone]

IIRC Races of Faerun or some other FR book said that centaurs can use Spirited Charge and lance multipliers w/ their own charges.

This wouldn't RAW quality other mounted multipliers (but it's the sort of thing that many DMs could be talked into).

[Firechanter]

Concerning the combination of Leap Attack with a Mounted Charge: basically I think these two aren't compatible, for the aforementioned reasons.
But after weighing it to and fro, I guess I would allow it if the character in question has at least the Mounted Combat feat, and then he has to make a Ride check to make the leap. So yes, that means that a character with Spirited Charge can get even more out of it.

[ffone]

One of the several problems with trying to have it both ways on mounted leap attack is that you pretty much have to make up your own rules for the details, since you are taking what was one action and breaking it into several pieces.
It'd be like saying you can cast a quickened spell after you fire an arrow and before it reaches its target - maybe fluffwise you think there is some 'time' during the action, but in DnD RAW it's just one unit.

Also it should at the very least require making the Ride check for a free action dismount - so now you're doing extra actions during a charge (even if free actions) which, except for the long jumping specifically allowed by Leap Attack, probably violates the charging rules. It begs the question of what the point of class features like Acrobatic Charge is (which allows you make skill checks during a charge).

In other words it's not just that you can't combine all the damage increasers - you're no longer charging at all.

[LordBlades]

Seems you have missed the clause in IHS about needing an action to activate?

That means it cant be used by someone in frenzy.

Unless of course, you would mean getting attacked by a frenzied berserker was a condition you wantet to remove though IHS :smalltongue:

Frenzy has a very specific list of things you can't do, and activating martial maneuvers is not among them.

In regards to using Leap Attack while mounted, rules are a bit unclear on the subject IMHO (there is no clear rule that you can, but neither that you can't). In my group we've houseruled it that the mount making the Jump also triggers Leap Attack, as from our experience it's simpler,and still falls behind what an equivalent level caster can do. Not that we've had many mounted chargers. Most of them are Dragonborn Water Orcs abusing Battle Jump and Dive attacks (or Dive and Leap Attack).

[Runestar]

Can we stop with this 1-shotting nonsense and get back to whatever it is we were discussing about the mountain giant? :smallannoyed:

[ffone]

If one were to spend the mountain giant's CR 26 treasure (400,000 gp or so?) on magic items to help it deal with PCs, what would you give it?

[Eldan]

Wings of Flying, Anklet of Translocation, Ring of Freedom of Movement...
Something with Death Ward too. And something for a better will save.

[LOTRfan]

There is no way these guys are CR 26.

I'm actually in the middle of a "Let's Read" thread for the Monster Manual II, and one of the goals is to fix the CRs. Unfortunately, it'll be a while before I reach Giants.

[herrhauptmann]

Frenzy has a very specific list of things you can't do, and activating martial maneuvers is not among them.



That's because ToB didn't exist when Complete Warrior was printed. The same reason the Tarrasque doesn't get that spell bouncing against the Orb spells, they didn't exist at the time of printing. So you (or the DM) have to make a ruling regarding splatbook power creep in both cases.

For the giant:
"A Giant has EHD as though it were a huge creature."
Hunh? Were they reaching into those pseudo Epic rules like the stat blocks for Elminster and others in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting?

I'd say adjusting his feats a little would actually do great at adjusting his CR up a bit. At least in regards to making them a deadlier threat. Ditch the alertness, combat reflexes (they have a 10dex) and great cleave. It still doesn't fix the gaping holes in their defenses: ref,will save, AC (I think most giants have pretty low AC for their CR).
And change their "summon giants" ability. The strongest thing they summon is what, a CR 7 Hill giant? By level 18, that's just difficult terrain that might have a chance to attack you. I know the idea was to summon other giant types that reside in the same region as the mountain giant, but couldn't they put in an advanced Stone giant (who at least resides in the mountains)?

Equipment Changes: Some armor. A magic weapon, perhaps 'Unholy' or 'Chaotic' weapon. A 1/day item of Mindblank that's sized for a Colossal creature. Perhaps that tabard in C.Champ that grants Mettle or Improved Mettle.

[ffone]

The weird EHD feats thing is a 3.0 throwback. The MM2 3.5 update probably gives it 4 extra feats (but probably stupid ones).

lol so true about its Combat Reflex and Dex 10 - wtf?

Brutal Throw for sure (Str mod to thrown attacks) and Quick Draw for iterative rocks. I like giants b/c they are beatsticks with the potential for some ranged attacks. PCs who invest in fly / skirmishing / battlefield control should get some protection from melee beatsticks for it, but ideally not render the encounter totally safe.

I like the above item ideas, repeating/adding/listing

Ring of FoM - b/c Entangle etc. are obvious and cheap ways to impede a beatstick. And b/c PCs like to use FoM against grabby beatsticks, further incentivizing use of entangle-type spells they'll be immune to. Also b/c a lot of these spells are Reflex saves, and its stinks.

anklet of translocation

armor, and vest of resistance. Maybe that armor property that gives +5 AC vs ranged, and/or miss chance items like the greater blurring property or a minor cloak of displacement.

that MiC item that gives you swift see invis for a few rounds a day

mind blank 1/day (if the PCs are shrewd enough to dispel and then
dominate, go them). Formulaic cost of such an item is 43,200 gp, which I've actually already allowed a PC to do.

phoenix cloak (fly speed = its base speed of 80'!)

comp longbow (more range increments than its rocks)

gauntlets of throwing - doubles its range with rocks! maybe renders the longbow unnecessary. A thematic item for a giant.

Dex item if it keeps Combat Reflexes - it has great reach, and is always armed with its slam. Maybe just a belt of magnificence to improve all its stats. (which also helps vs saves and ability damage).

Maybe a Spell Resistance item - their cost is linear in SR so at high levels one can affordably get pretty high SR vs not-CL-pumping casters. Complements FoM, since a lot of the favorite SR No spells are FoM-able, like Black Tentacles.

[herrhauptmann]

Perhaps some Martial study feats? I forget, which power/stance gives you total lockdown in an area? Thicket of blades? island?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If one were to spend the mountain giant's CR 26 treasure (400,000 gp or so?) on magic items to help it deal with PCs, what would you give it?

Necklace of Adaptation
Ring of Freedom of Movement
3rd eye: Conceal
Scarab of Protection

There, that takes care of most of the 'Save or Loose' effects...

Then I'd recalculate damage of boulders base on the weight-to-damage chart which the Hulking Hurler (ab)uses. And increase the weight of the boulders to the max his Str allows for throwing boulders. That'll give him the damage output he needs to actually threaten someone.

From there, I'd probably give him a +1 Skillful Spiked Chain to increase reach.

Unfortunately, that really won't do a whole lot to slow down an epic-level caster, but it'll give epic-level melee at least a speed bump.

[LordBlades]

That's because ToB didn't exist when Complete Warrior was printed. The same reason the Tarrasque doesn't get that spell bouncing against the Orb spells, they didn't exist at the time of printing. So you (or the DM) have to make a ruling regarding splatbook power creep in both cases.



The Tiger Blooded feat is proof IMHO that ToB designers intended Martial Strikes to be used while raging, and the fact that Frenzy restrictions are similar with Rage restrictions make me think they should be used in Frenzy too.
Of course, you're free to have a different opinion, but at leas by RAW, you can use maneuvers in Frenzy.

On the Giant: it has many weaknesses that need addressing with items:

-it can't fly
-it lacks a way to get out of 'no save just lose' effects, Freedom of Movement and/or Teleport would greatly aid with this problem.
-it lacks a way to detect invisible and/or ethereal foes
-it's attack bonus is way too low to hit most caster's AC at that level, and it also lacks a way to get past miss chances; the Mage Slayer line of feats would help with that.

[BenTheJester]

Is there any precedent for centaur types counting as their own mounts? Besides the CharOp history, that is.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/centaur.htm

Under the "Combat" section.

However, by RAW, it never states that you count as mounted for other purposes, such as spirited charge.



Also, if you're somehow allowed to make it work, play a Tauric Blink Dog+Whatever. You can use Dimension Door as a free action every turn, allowing you to charge again the next round.

[Eldan]

You could probably base frenzy restrictions on the base skill of the school used: Tiger claw uses Jump (and makes sense thematically), while Diamond Mind is concentration.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Honestly, these guys are *really* weak, since your typical 10th level Warlock could easily solo one. With Fell Flight, the mountain giant can't reach the Warlock, who then simply rains down death and destruction on the giant until it falls over. Between the absolutly pathetic damage the boulders do, and the rediculous miss chances Warlocks can rack up (Entropic Ward would be best, because that is all day long and also blocks the scent ability, letting you snipe them with invisibility all you like, although a Wand of Mirror Image works just as well to make the giants run out of boulders), there's no way a mountain giant can drop a mid-level warlock.

[Zaq]

The Tiger Blooded feat is proof IMHO that ToB designers intended Martial Strikes to be used while raging, and the fact that Frenzy restrictions are similar with Rage restrictions make me think they should be used in Frenzy too.
Of course, you're free to have a different opinion, but at leas by RAW, you can use maneuvers in Frenzy.

On the Giant: it has many weaknesses that need addressing with items:

-it can't fly
-it lacks a way to get out of 'no save just lose' effects, Freedom of Movement and/or Teleport would greatly aid with this problem.
-it lacks a way to detect invisible and/or ethereal foes
-it's attack bonus is way too low to hit most caster's AC at that level, and it also lacks a way to get past miss chances; the Mage Slayer line of feats would help with that.

So far as I can tell, the debate isn't about using maneuvers while in a frenzy. The debate is about specifically using Iron Heart Surge while in a frenzy. Frenzy states that you must attack to the best of your ability (or something similar; my book's closed), and using IHS to stop frenzying is not attacking to the best of your ability.

[Worira]

Mountain giants also don't have a range listed for their rock throwing ability, nor is any detail given on their rock catching ability. This provides further evidence for my theory that the editors of Monster Manual 2 were lemurs given a crude semblance of sapience by exposure to mysterious radioactive samples collected from a meteor crater.

[Zaq]

Mountain giants also don't have a range listed for their rock throwing ability, nor is any detail given on their rock catching ability. This provides further evidence for my theory that the editors of Monster Manual 2 were lemurs given a crude semblance of sapience by exposure to mysterious radioactive samples collected from a meteor crater.

I had always heard that they were blind dart-throwing monkeys who were on fire, but that may have just been the team in charge of assigning CRs.

[LordBlades]

So far as I can tell, the debate isn't about using maneuvers while in a frenzy. The debate is about specifically using Iron Heart Surge while in a frenzy. Frenzy states that you must attack to the best of your ability (or something similar; my book's closed), and using IHS to stop frenzying is not attacking to the best of your ability.

Neither is attempting to voluntarily end the Frenzy via Will save, and yet it's specifically allowed in the ability text.

What constitutes 'to the best of your ability' is pretty subjective and varies from DM to DM. Iron Heart Surge for example also grants +2 to attacks for 1 turn. Does using a standard action to grant you +2 to all attacks next turn constitute 'attacking to the best of your ability'? I don't think there can be a definitive answer to that.

[Runestar]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/centaur.htm

Under the "Combat" section.

However, by RAW, it never states that you count as mounted for other purposes, such as spirited charge.

That part is mentioned in races of faerun, which allows centaurs to take spirited charge without having to meet the prereqs and apply said feat to its attacks. :smallsmile:

[ikkeman]

Neither is attempting to voluntarily end the Frenzy via Will save, and yet it's specifically allowed in the ability text.

What constitutes 'to the best of your ability' is pretty subjective and varies from DM to DM. Iron Heart Surge for example also grants +2 to attacks for 1 turn. Does using a standard action to grant you +2 to all attacks next turn constitute 'attacking to the best of your ability'? I don't think there can be a definitive answer to that.

But the "End Frenzy" save is a free action. IHS is not. The FB may use the IHS if he thinks that +2 is required to hit his former friends - But I wouldn't allow it.
I alway see the FB as no longer being in control of his actions, and barely able to guide the death his body is dealing (first enemies, then random). Thus, no int,wis,cha skills and no concentration.