Bow enhancements

[Tetsubo 57]

Is there a comprehensive list somewhere of all the possible magic bow enhancements? TIA.

[Forb]

There is a list in the Magic Item Compendium.
Starts on page 241.

[John Campbell]

There is a list in the Magic Item Compendium.
Starts on page 241.

That's not comprehensive. It has only stuff from the MIC and DMG; nothing from any other source. I know there are ranged enhancements (e.g., Splitting) that don't appear in either of those books.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There is.

It's called Splitting.

[nyarlathotep]

There is.

It's called Splitting.

You forgot force.

[Firechanter]

Well, Splitting certainly isn't in my MIC.
Where can I find it?

[Octopus Jack]

Well, Splitting certainly isn't in my MIC.
Where can I find it?

Splitting is in Champions of Ruin, I think.

[JaronK]

Splitting, Force, and Distance are the primary actually useful ones. Because of the number of shots fired, Corrosive might be worth it too.

JaronK

[Firechanter]

I take it Splitting doubles your arrows? How much does it cost?

[yugi24862]

3+ enchanment cost. Expensive, but worth it. If you can, get the energy bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) and put it on that.

[Zieu]

Collision may also be worth considering. A flat +5 to damage is better on average than any of the Flaming/Frost enhancements; combine it with a Composite bow and you'll be doing well

[Keld Denar]

I like exit wounds. It's a +2 equivalent that gives +1d6 damage and allows you to make attacks vs things behind your initial foe at a -4 penalty. More attacks are better than fewer attacks.

[ffone]

Splitting requires Precise Shot to use (and craft) - are there items that grant the feat?

According to http://home.comcast.net/~ftm3/JHtB/feats.htm , MIC has a +1 BPB enhancement - which depending on the wording hopefully counts. Not a bad ability, I suppose (if you have another source of damage like sneak attack / skirmish you'll care more about improving attack than dmg, and with the 'power attack' energy bow it can be effectively translated into +4 dmg over a regular bow...when Precise Shot is needed, anyway).

[yugi24862]

If your an archer, you should already have precise shot from somewhere.

[2xMachina]

Precise Shot is one of the feat taxes of an archer.

Unless you're in an all ranged party, you'd eat a -4 penalty to most of your attacks, since your beatstick will go right up to the target as soon as they can.

Grab that when you can.

EDIT: I feel the +1 enchantment for Precise Shot a bit iffy. That could get rather expensive at later lvls, when you want Force, Splitting, Collision, etc bow.

[ffone]

Agreed. I was really hoping to find a flat price ability since force is so desirable, and the main point of this ability was to quality for splitting, which totals +7 aka 98,000 gp already. My campaign allows making 'multiple different ability items' (with the 1.5x to the cheaper as normal) so some body slot wondrous item is always fuseable onto something else.

[TroubleBrewing]

Magebane. +2d6 to anything that casts arcane spells or uses arcane SLAs? Sign me up. Though at higher levels it's probably better on ammunition.

[Firechanter]

That infamous Hank's Energy Bow mentioned above is really hefty. To recap, it's essentially a +2 Mighty Composite Force Longbow that shoots infinite 2d6+Str force missiles and always has the right amount of Mighty.
Now Force is a +2 property in its own right, so a +2 Force bow _without_ the Strength adaptation and doing just 1d8 would already cost 32K. And Hank's bow? Some 23K and it's much much _better_. Sometimes I really don't know what the WotC guys are thinking or whether they ever bother to read their own rules.

[The Dark Fiddler]

I like exit wounds. It's a +2 equivalent that gives +1d6 damage and allows you to make attacks vs things behind your initial foe at a -4 penalty. More attacks are better than fewer attacks.

I figure that since you didn't mention a source, it'd be in MiC, but I figure it can't hurt asking what book it's from anyway.

[Allanimal]

I figure that since you didn't mention a source, it'd be in MiC, but I figure it can't hurt asking what book it's from anyway.

Complete Warrior, p.134

[John Campbell]

... and always has the right amount of Mighty.
Is there any way to get that property as a stand-alone, without having to get a specific bow that happens to include it? (Hank's bow, bow of the wintermoon...) I want it for my ranger/barbarian so I don't have to replace my frickin' multi-thousand gp bow to take advantage of a Strength bump. Especially temporary Str bumps. Like, say, rage.

[ffone]

That infamous Hank's Energy Bow mentioned above is really hefty. To recap, it's essentially a +2 Mighty Composite Force Longbow that shoots infinite 2d6+Str force missiles and always has the right amount of Mighty.
Now Force is a +2 property in its own right, so a +2 Force bow _without_ the Strength adaptation and doing just 1d8 would already cost 32K. And Hank's bow? Some 23K and it's much much _better_. Sometimes I really don't know what the WotC guys are thinking or whether they ever bother to read their own rules.

FWIW, the author of Hank's Energy Bow probably didn't mean for it to auto-pass DR the way the Force property does - in fact, *does* Hank's Energy Bow, or do we just tend to assume it b/c of the Force property (i.e. if the Force property had never been printed, would we infer this?) Hank's does say "force effect", but is there a blurb anywhere (SRD/DMg etc.) that tells us force effects bypass DR?

I'm wondering the same thing about MiC's 'gauntlets of endless javelins', which has fluff text saying 'javelins of pure force'.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

FWIW, the author of Hank's Energy Bow probably didn't mean for it to auto-pass DR the way the Force property does - in fact, *does* Hank's Energy Bow, or do we just tend to assume it b/c of the Force property (i.e. if the Force property had never been printed, would we infer this?) Hank's does say "force effect", but is there a blurb anywhere (SRD/DMg etc.) that tells us force effects bypass DR?

I'm wondering the same thing about MiC's 'gauntlets of endless javelins', which has fluff text saying 'javelins of pure force'.

Quoth the SRD:
Damage Reduction

A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities.

Is Force an energy attack? Yes. Does DR stop it? No.

[ffone]

Actually, I don't think force is an energy type.

[Keld Denar]

What kind of damage does a Magic Missile (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicMissile.htm) do?

[Coidzor]

That infamous Hank's Energy Bow mentioned above is really hefty. To recap, it's essentially a +2 Mighty Composite Force Longbow that shoots infinite 2d6+Str force missiles and always has the right amount of Mighty.
Now Force is a +2 property in its own right, so a +2 Force bow _without_ the Strength adaptation and doing just 1d8 would already cost 32K. And Hank's bow? Some 23K and it's much much _better_. Sometimes I really don't know what the WotC guys are thinking or whether they ever bother to read their own rules.

You forgot it gives the equivalent of power attack for your bow which is otherwise unobtainable in all of D&D 3.5 as far as I've ever heard.

[arguskos]

Is there any way to get that property as a stand-alone, without having to get a specific bow that happens to include it? (Hank's bow, bow of the wintermoon...) I want it for my ranger/barbarian so I don't have to replace my frickin' multi-thousand gp bow to take advantage of a Strength bump. Especially temporary Str bumps. Like, say, rage.
By a loose reading of the bone bow (exotic weapon from Frostburn), it could be argued that bone bows allow for unlimited Strength use, since the description says that the bone bow functions like a composite bow for purposes of Strength to damage. I don't know how RAW that is, but since you're taking an EWP for it, I think it's pretty legit. That's just me though.

[term1nally s1ck]

There's a bow power attack in 3.0, iirc. Peerless Archer, maybe?

[John Campbell]

By a loose reading of the bone bow (exotic weapon from Frostburn), it could be argued that bone bows allow for unlimited Strength use, since the description says that the bone bow functions like a composite bow for purposes of Strength to damage. I don't know how RAW that is, but since you're taking an EWP for it, I think it's pretty legit. That's just me though.

There's no way that "functions as a composite longbow with regard to applying the user's Strength bonus to damage" means that the bone bow gets unlimited Str bonus, because that's not how composite longbows function. If it were, I'd be golden without the bone bow, because I've already got a composite longbow, which, obviously, functions as a composite longbow in every regard.

(Fixed Str cap, +0 by default, +100 gp for every +1 beyond that. If you haven't got the Str to meet the cap, you're at -2 to hit.)

[ffone]

Grr, the Precise property in MIc emulates Precise Shot (and even mentions that it's redundant with it!) but since it doesn't actually say it confers the Precise Shot feat, technically it won't work for 'splitting'. So close!

Oh well, I hadn't decided whether I considered 'splitting' too good/cheesy...



What kind of damage does a Magic Missile (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicMissile.htm) do?

'Force'. That doesn't make it an energy type. Not every direct damage spell has an energy type. The fact that MM isn't subject to DR doesn't imply force is an energy type (converse fallacy), which I assume was the thought process behind the rhetorical question.

The SRD section says that "The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities" and that "A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks."

In other words, by default it applies to 'physical' (weapon and natural weapon) attacks but not Su/Sp/spell attacks. Naturally individual things may specify exceptions. And many people consider it RAI that any spell damage which specifies bludgeoning/slashing/piercing, like Black Tentacles, is meant to be subject to DR (since that's the most common reason for the b/s/p distinction to matter) especially if it's an SR No conjuration.

That's why a Hank's bow arrow would be subject to DR but MM is not. Both are force effects, but ones' a weapon and one's a spell.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction

[Firechanter]

You forgot it gives the equivalent of power attack for your bow which is otherwise unobtainable in all of D&D 3.5 as far as I've ever heard.

You're right, I totally forgot that! So that should be worth at least another +1. The variable Str mod is a minor boon and should probably come at a fixed price (+3000 maybe). Anyway, the complete bow should normally cost at least as much as a +5 weapon, and not slightly more than a +2.

That said, houseruling this ability as a feat would be a real boon for Archers. But avoid calling it "Power Shot" because that's going to bait smartshrooms into pointing out bows don't work that way.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Grr, the Precise property in MIc emulates Precise Shot (and even mentions that it's redundant with it!) but since it doesn't actually say it confers the Precise Shot feat, technically it won't work for 'splitting'. So close!

Oh well, I hadn't decided whether I considered 'splitting' too good/cheesy...




'Force'. That doesn't make it an energy type. Not every direct damage spell has an energy type. The fact that MM isn't subject to DR doesn't imply force is an energy type (converse fallacy), which I assume was the thought process behind the rhetorical question.

The SRD section says that "The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities" and that "A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks."

In other words, by default it applies to 'physical' (weapon and natural weapon) attacks but not Su/Sp/spell attacks. Naturally individual things may specify exceptions. And many people consider it RAI that any spell damage which specifies bludgeoning/slashing/piercing, like Black Tentacles, is meant to be subject to DR (since that's the most common reason for the b/s/p distinction to matter) especially if it's an SR No conjuration.

That's why a Hank's bow arrow would be subject to DR but MM is not. Both are force effects, but ones' a weapon and one's a spell.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction

But the arrows are not physical, they are force effects. Ergo, DR does not apply.

[Firechanter]

We're going in circles here I'm afraid, but the MIC entry _specifically states_ that the Force property ignores all except Epic DR.

[2xMachina]

Grab Precise Shot as a feat. It's good enough even without splitting.

See if you can retrain a feat.

[ffone]

But the arrows are not physical, they are force effects. Ergo, DR does not apply.

'Physical' is not a RAW-defined term as far as I know. I included it in quotes in my prior post (and now) b/c it was my own undefined term (a mental grouping of manufactured and natural weapon attacks). You're just saying that your own preferred fluff / interpretation / 'how the world works' is that DR shouldn't apply to Hank's bow. (Fluffwise I actually agree, but I'm claiming it's not RAW. And at the price point of Hank's bow, not as well balanced.) Can you find RAW that says force effects always ignore DR, either directly or indirectly - like that force is in fact an energy type?

One example of this principle is the lantern archon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/archon.htm). Their Attack entry is a Light Ray - the entry for which specifically states that it ignores all DR, b/c if it didn't say this, they would be subject to DR (although it's likely people might ignore that and consider it RAI), b/c they are listed as an Ex and not a Su.

[Coidzor]

You're right, I totally forgot that! So that should be worth at least another +1. The variable Str mod is a minor boon and should probably come at a fixed price (+3000 maybe). Anyway, the complete bow should normally cost at least as much as a +5 weapon, and not slightly more than a +2.

That said, houseruling this ability as a feat would be a real boon for Archers. But avoid calling it "Power Shot" because that's going to bait smartshrooms into pointing out bows don't work that way.

Only if they want to make bad blood by purposefully trying to regimp their fellow archers or gimp themselves for whatever reason.

And I'd say that generally feats have a fixed cost rather than a variable +1 cost in practice.

[Zaq]

Slight derail: If force damage ignores DR, does that mean that the Crown bind of the Crystal Helm (which causes your melee attacks to "gain the force descriptor," if that's ever officially defined anywhere) causes all of your melee attacks to ignore DR? It doesn't say that they do force damage, though. Just that they have the force descriptor. Is that ever defined anywhere, I wonder?

[Slipperychicken]

Maybe it's just me, but the Energy Bow seems to have some RAW silliness. (Emphasis mine)


Please tell me f I'm wrong.





Hank can use the bow to make power shots.To do so, before making attack rolls, choose a number to subtract from YOUR attack rolls up to HANK's base attack and add this same number to the damage dealt by the bow with any attack that hits

This seems to imply that "power shots" work off of Hank's base attack, not that of the weilder. So no matter how much BAB you have, you're limited to Hank's BAB as a bonus on damage. Also, since Hank is regarded as an entity independent of the weilder, he and only he can use power shots with energy bows.



The penalty on attack rolls and bonus on damage rolls last until Hank’s next turn.

This gets even weirder, because the wording on the site alternates between "you" and "Hank". Since the bonus and penalty only end on Hank's next turn, what happens if Hank isn't in combat? Or on an alternate time plane? Or dead? Or using any sort of temporal wackiness? Do the penalties/bonuses never wear off? Do they last long enough for you to attack?

[dgnslyr]

I... I think we can agree that that's just inconsistent pronoun usage. I guess they use Hank because he's the bow's traditional wielder, but at least make it consistent. :smallfrown:

[tyckspoon]

Slight derail: If force damage ignores DR, does that mean that the Crown bind of the Crystal Helm (which causes your melee attacks to "gain the force descriptor," if that's ever officially defined anywhere) causes all of your melee attacks to ignore DR? It doesn't say that they do force damage, though. Just that they have the force descriptor. Is that ever defined anywhere, I wonder?

It's an official descriptor. For what it actually does, you have to go digging through other spells, effects, and conditions to see if they have any special interactions with [force], the same way things like [fire] and [death] do not have special effects in and of themselves. The most common things where [force] matters are incorporeal creatures and ethereal creatures, both of which interact with [force] effects as if they were material. So if you have the Crystal Helm bound you can smack around ghosts and shadows without worrying about that pesky 50% miss chance and you can hit phase spiders before they switch planes and ambush you.

[ffone]

Slight derail: If force damage ignores DR, does that mean that the Crown bind of the Crystal Helm (which causes your melee attacks to "gain the force descriptor," if that's ever officially defined anywhere) causes all of your melee attacks to ignore DR? It doesn't say that they do force damage, though. Just that they have the force descriptor. Is that ever defined anywhere, I wonder?

I don't believe so - but the poster above me gave a pretty good rundown - it's not defined per se, just referred to in the context of certain other things like Blink and Etherealness; the typical 'effect' of being a force effect seems to be that you can affect ethereal or incorporeal things.

I don't know of any rule anywhere that force effects always ignore DR. I think people just tend to tacitly make the assumption based on the fact that virtually all force effects are spells/Sp/Su effects, which by default ignore regardless (a correlation/causality fallacy, as it were), and the most well known way to get force-effect physical attacks, the Force ranged weapon property, says it bypasses DR.

[Firechanter]

Only if they want to make bad blood by purposefully trying to regimp their fellow archers or gimp themselves for whatever reason.

Note that I didn't mean to remove the property from Hank's Energy Bow, but to offer it independently as feat choice for fellers who won't use HEB.

Besides, we once experimented with something like this (trade -5 to attack for +5 to damage) and found it useless -- I did the math and if I remember correctly, a 1:1 conversion will only _reduce_ your average output for all but the very lowest ACs.

By the way:
what are the best ways to enhance your bow damage output?
What DPR ranges can be practically achieved at mid-levels and at max level, and with what classes/feats?

The way I see it, the options are pretty limited... Rapid Shot is as far as it gets for extra attacks, and I am not aware of any damage multipliers in the manner Chargers like to pile up. But I've never dug into archery so deeply so I may have missed stuff.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

By the way:
what are the best ways to enhance your bow damage output?
What DPR ranges can be practically achieved at mid-levels and at max level, and with what classes/feats?

The way I see it, the options are pretty limited... Rapid Shot is as far as it gets for extra attacks, and I am not aware of any damage multipliers in the manner Chargers like to pile up. But I've never dug into archery so deeply so I may have missed stuff.

A Swift Hunter build can rack up some impressive damage output with a Splitting bow and Improved Manyshot (that treats each arrow individually rather than as a volley, letting Skirmish damage apply to each arrow).

[term1nally s1ck]

Targetteer fighter variant lets you get Dex to damage.

[bhh39]

if you can get approval for pathfinder stuff deadly aim is nice. -1 to hit +2 to damage and scales with bab

[2xMachina]

Cleric archer is also pretty good. Especially with War Domain and Holy Warrior reserve feat. +Spell lvl to damage on each attack. Knowledge Devotion also gives more damage.

[Darrin]

This gets even weirder, because the wording on the site alternates between "you" and "Hank".

Seriously, don't even go there.

The description of Hank's Bow was cut&pasted from the booklet that was included in the cartoon DVD set. It includes descriptions of all the major characters, gives each of them a unique magic item, and lays out a small mini-adventure. The language and tone in the booklet is intentionally directed at very casual players who may not be familiar with 3.x rules and non-gamers who might want to "give it a try". It's assumed that the player with Hank is using Hank's Bow for the purposes of going through the mini-adventure. Some other PC using Hank's Bow really isn't part of the scope of the booklet. However, all of the items and stats in that booklet are statted out and priced exactly as they would be in any other 3.x sourcebook, and would be considered "official" in most 3.x games.