Gestalting Duskblade//Beguiler?

[NineThePuma]

It looks pretty tricky, but I can see a load of benefits and don't see any real downsides. Improved skills, greater spell versatility, credible melee advantages, Cloaked Casting combined with some AoE magics...

(Additionally, give me feat suggestions!)

[Chuckthedwarf]

Certainly, this would be a powerful combination...
Full casting progression - even if only with a somewhat limited spell list, full BAB, rogue-like skill monkey capabilities, not to mention all the class features from both the Duskblade and the Beguiler.

However, there's one problem - Duskblade's Arcane Channeling class ability says that you can use any applicable spell you know with it, without any clause about only having to use Duskblade spell list.

And Beguiler isn't exactly known for having a lot of outright offensive damaging spells.

Of course, since Duskblade is already plenty powerful, you might not care about this. But using a 8th or 9th level touch spell on every attack in a full attack would be sweet, and that's not something you'd be able to do with a beguiler gestalt.

Still, you'd be a duskblade (already plenty offensive power) with all the skills of a rogue, not to mention beguiler spell casting.

Edit: Things you could do with a Duskblade/Wizard gestalt with just core (too lazy to look at other good spell books)
At level 17, Energy Drain on every attack in full attack. With that spell that makes all your attacks touch attacks (Wraith something) that you'd also get with wizard casting...

No save 2d4 level drain times at least 4 or more if you have natural attacks or snap kick or whatever. That will kill ANYTHING susceptible.

Wizard (and Cleric, come to think of it, but then it's based of a different attribute) spell list provides too many great utility spells to ignore... Not to mention a far better repertoire of offensive spells and buffs compared to the Beguiler. And a wizard is already a tier 1 class, and could easily ignore or beat challenges normally requiring skill checks with spells...

[Gnaeus]

And Beguiler isn't exactly known for having a lot of outright offensive damaging spells.

Of course, since Duskblade is already plenty powerful, you might not care about this. But using a 8th or 9th level touch spell on every attack in a full attack would be sweet, and that's not something you'd be able to do with a beguiler gestalt.


Well, it is pretty easy to add spells to beguiler, with PRCs or Arcane Disciple.

Also, Beguilers can add touch spells with expanded learning. Channeling Irresistible Dance onto 4 or 5 targets sounds like fun.

Finally, Beguilers do get some gish-improving buffs, like haste, or greater invisibility.

[Chuckthedwarf]

(Don't wanna edit again, continuing here)

Or you can do Meteor Swarm through a full attack (it is a touch attack spell, so it probably qualifies) as a duskblade/wizard gestalt. Whoever you target with it (someone in melee range with you, I wager) gets dealt 2d6 bludgeoning + 6d6 no save fire damage on each hit on top of regular damage. Possibly 4 times for each hit, too, depending how you treat it.

And I'm aware how bad this spell is compared to things from Spell Compendium, Complete Arcane or Complete Mage. Or hell, even Core.

A Duskblade/Wizard allows for absolutely insane things... Which might make your DM pissed at times, but then again if you're playing a gestalt game it's pretty safe to assume that that's what everyone's looking for.

[Chuckthedwarf]

There's also the possibility of switching the Beguiler or Wizard with cleric. Cloistered Cleric, even. Divine spells don't care for armor, you get as many skill points as Beguiler (And have a spell for those rare situations when trapfinding might be useful), and have a large list of incredibly overpowered cleric spells, many of which provide various buffs to yourself or your team.

Not to mention domains, and possibility to screw around with Travel Devotion for pseudo-pounce to enjoy your channeled full attacks whenever you want.

And since you were likely to take Arcane Disciple feat ANYWAYS, your wisdom is probably close enough to allow full level cleric casting by the time you get there. Perhaps not 18 at level 1, but probably at least 18 by level 17...

And Arcane Channeling, despite the "arcane" in it's name, doesn't actually have a clause against using divine spells with it... So, yeah.

[Gnaeus]

I don't think that channeling touch attacks includes rays, only normal touch spells. Therefore, you cannot channel Energy Drain or Meteor swarm.

[Chuckthedwarf]

There's also a problem of most Beguiler class abilities not being very good for a full attack melee fighter such as Duskblade.

Armored Mage - okay, you'll be using Light Armor at the least as a Duskblade.
Trapfinding - largely meh, there are ways of getting rid of traps and you can always be a cloistered cleric for larger benefits with Trapfinding as a spell.
Cloaked Casting - okay if you manage to remove your opponent's Dex bonus. Don't forget that Beguiler spells generally don't work with Arcane Channeling as most of them aren't touch spells.
Advanced Learning: Has it's benefits, but other spell lists (either wizard or cleric) are simply better...
Surprise Casting - almost worthless. Very counterintuitive to Duskblade gameplay, even if you get the feats that let you Bluff as a Swift action. It's great for pure Beguilers, though, because they aren't much of a fighter.

[Chuckthedwarf]

I don't think that channeling touch attacks includes rays, only normal touch spells. Therefore, you cannot channel Energy Drain or Meteor swarm.

I guess I missed that. No matter, there are still more melee touch spells in either Wizard's or Cleric's spell list then there's in the Beguiler's.

And if one takes the Cloistered Cleric, there's literally almost nothing you give up from Beguiler. Much better buffing spells, more touch spells, better offensive spells and access to pretty much the entire beguiler spell list anyways.

Plus the usual cleric cheese if you choose to head in that direction.

All for the price of a little MAD - and given that most buff spells don't care much about DC, and there are quite a few touch spells that simply inflict the damage, it won't really matter. And in Gestalt game, I doubt that everyone will be running with 13 or 15 as their highest ability at 1st level.

[NineThePuma]

Wizard can't cast in armor which makes it less useful.

Plus, you know, Beguiler+Dusk is more self sufficient. As a rogue type.

[Douglas]

No save 2d4 level drain times at least 4 or more if you have natural attacks or snap kick or whatever. That will kill ANYTHING susceptible.
Aside from the range issue, full attack channeling doesn't quite work that way. It's not "every hit delivers the spell", it's "the spell affects everyone that was hit at least once." If you attack one guy five times, he gets the spell once. If you attack five enemies once each, all five of them get the spell - once each (assuming you hit).

[Noneoyabizzness]

This discussion makes me wanna roll aduskblade/ dread necro

[Gnaeus]

And if one takes the Cloistered Cleric, there's literally almost nothing you give up from Beguiler. Much better buffing spells, more touch spells, better offensive spells and access to pretty much the entire beguiler spell list anyways.

Not really. Beguiler has a much better skill list. And beguilers get a lot of spells that Cloistered Clerics don't. Beguilers have lots of awesome save or loses, starting at first level. Expeditious Retreat. Charm. Invisibility. Haste. Slow. Dominate. Time Stop. Now, the CC can pick domains to copy some of those spells, but only once per day, unless he took domain substitution for that particular domain.

Don't get me wrong Cloistered Clerics are great. CC//Duskblade is a very valid, strong gestalt. But saying CC//Duskblade can do anything Beguiler//duskblade does is not true for most levels, until things like gate and miracle enter play. If you want to play a sneaky guy focused on mind control, Beguiler is a better pick than CC.

[Cog]

Another advantage of Beguiler over Cloistered Cleric is that you're now sitting on an even bigger pile of fuel for Arcane Strike. With Strike being a free action rather than a swift, that helps with the whole action-economy problem that dualcasting gestalt builds can otherwise run into.

[*.*.*.*]

Stock up on Arcane disciple(Worship Sestrous for all domains) and all of those juicy PrCs that expand spells known(like Rainbow Servant). Channeling Harm with a two handed power attack would be epic.

[faceroll]

It's a very solid practical gestalt. Wizard//warblade or wizard//factotum might have a higher threshold, but goddamn, you've got 2 good saves, awesome skills points, solid HD, good BAB, sweet spells, and can either kill kill kill or sneak around and chat bitches up. It's a perfect build for the guy who wants to cut a bitch, then later sneak up and do something nefarious. Great heroic build, as you're going to be doing all kinds of heroic stuff.

Now I want to roll duskbalde//beguiler. :smallfrown:

[NineThePuma]

Now I want to roll duskbalde//beguiler. :smallfrown:

I'm sad cause I can't yet. :smallfrown:

[faceroll]

I'm sad cause I can't yet. :smallfrown:

Me too. :smallfrown:

[TheOOB]

While duskblade and beguilder don't have a lot of synnergy, they have little overlap as well as little conflict between their abilities. It's actually a pretty strong combo IMO. The duskblade makes you a strong fighter a damage dealer, and the beguiler makes you a stealthy skill monkey with the spells to handle what your sword and burn effects cannot. He won't(shouldn't) be the strongest member of the party, but he'll always be useful, and he won't suffer too much from the problem where he was too many things he needs to do in a fight, and not enough actions.

[Thespianus]

Duskblade // Spellthief/Beguiler/Unseen Seer

Channeling, Wild Crazy Sneak Attack damage, a TON of spells for Arcane Strike, etc, etc, etc.

WIN! :)

[aazru]

There is one thing that makes duskblade//cc awesome. Get a whip and start channelling some heals :smallbiggrin: bonus points if there is a feat of prc that gives "morale" bonus to whipped allies.