Making bad classes attractive.

[Darth Stabber]

I don't know if this should be homebrew or not, but it is a somewhat houserule based question, so if it needs moved may a moderator please do so.

So having read about the gestalt Soulknife//Soulborn being playable as tier 4 class in non-gestalt D&D, I got to thinking. If we open that philosophy to other horrid classes and allowed players to mix and match the crap classes into a gestalt while people taking real classes just get their classes, what classes should be thrown on to this pick 2 method.

Current Classes on the list.
Official List
Expert, Knight, Marshal, Monk, Ninja, Samurai, Soulborn, Soulknife, Adept.

Pending list-need more data/opinions.
Shadowcaster, Healer, Divine Mind, Dragonshaman, Lurk, warmage.

What other classes should be on this list? Consider the balance point to be the hight end of tier 4.


Specifically Exempted
Fighter - Quintessential dip class. 1-2 levels show up in 99% of melee builds.
Paladin - Lots of support outside of core (especially in the PRC department, seriously every splat has a pally PRC, and a few of them are pretty good.)

[Yora]

It should be two classes that synergyze well, but don't do the same thing in slightly different ways.

For example, assumed that beguiler was weak, a beguiler//shadowcaster would be a bad combination as you end up with both spells and mysteries in one class.

Ninja//Monk could be quite cool.

[Veyr]

The problem is that most of these classes have absolutely no class features of note. The Fighter at least gets bonus feats and the Paladin at least gets Divine Grace and the Mount, but Monk, Ninja, Soulknife? Wis to AC, Evasion, and maybe some bonus feats if you're looking for the ones that the Monk offers are about the only class features that are particularly good there. The Ninja's abilities are hideously limited thanks to their absurdly small ki pool, and Psychic Strike is awful.

[Gnaeus]

Maybe expert? 6 skill points per level with a class list including UMD, Handle Animal, Diplomacy, Tumble, Iaijutsu Focus and 5 other skills of choice would be a big boost to many of those classes.

[Darth Stabber]

Samurai//Soulknife would be aweful too, since each class gives you a weapon and the rest of your class abilities expect you to use that weapon.

Samurai//Monk Could be cool, but Would be dependant on at least 4 attributes.

Samurai//Ninja would be terrible since one class prohibits you from using the other classes abilities.

Soulborn works "great" with any of the others, since it's main dependence is CON, therefore not really upping MAD for most of them.

I am trying to decide if shadowcaster should be on this list. I've not seen one played, but just reading over the class it seems kinda crappy. Seems "good" for ninja or monk if they wanted a greater connection to the shadows.

Knight is another class I've not seen played, but I don't like it from reading it. It could be fine on it's own, if not, he could be a decent samurai pair up (Both mild cha dependence, greater finesse in crowd control when combined).

Anything I am missing that should be on the list?

[The Cat Goddess]

Healer?

The main reason people I know avoid Knight is the weird "Knight's Challenge" mechanic and the Code of Honor. Some people will dip Knight for an Aura.

Edit: How about Knight//Samurai ? There's a certain amount of real-world synergy there...

[Darth Stabber]

Actually I will add expert to the list, and ignore the other NPC classes

Official List
Expert, Monk, Ninja, Samurai, Soulborn, Soulknife, Adept, Marshal.

Pending list
Knight, Shadowcaster, Healer (it's actually worse than adept), Divine Mind, Dragonshaman.

[Gnaeus]

The main reason people I know avoid Knight is the weird "Knight's Challenge" mechanic and the Code of Honor. Some people will dip Knight for an Aura.


They dip Knight for an aura? Do you mean Marshall? Marshall goes well with that list. Maybe even Dragon Shaman.

[FMArthur]

Adept (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/adept.htm) is a reasonable thing to put on there. Effectively you could combine it with any of the weak melee classes to get an easy gish that's actually playable at 1st level. The adept list is like a smaller version of the Wizard/Sorceror list with the standard Cleric healing spells, ending at 5th level spells.

[Darth Stabber]

Healer?

The main reason people I know avoid Knight is the weird "Knight's Challenge" mechanic and the Code of Honor. Some people will dip Knight for an Aura.

Edit: How about Knight//Samurai ? There's a certain amount of real-world synergy there...

This is assuming that you are not playing a gestalt game, and that you advance both classes together, and that you intend on it being your primary class. If you are taking a dip, you only get one class.

What about names for these "fixed classes"

Soulborn//Soulknife - already called Soulblade
Samurai//Soulborn - Ancestor's Chosen
anyone else have Ideas?

[The Cat Goddess]

They dip Knight for an aura? Do you mean Marshall? Marshall goes well with that list. Maybe even Dragon Shaman.

Sorry, you're right... it's Marshall.

Dragon Shaman, I've heard, can be the focus of some really broken things.

[Socko525]

I would say Dragon Shaman. I played one recently and my whole role consisted of give everyone the intiative boost at the start of the battle, and switch to the "thorns"(don't remember the exact name) aura and let the enemies hit me and kill themselves. One fight with enemies with acid resistance 5, and that was completely useless (at lower levels anyway)...needless to say, I changed my character after that battle.

[Darth Stabber]

They dip Knight for an aura? Do you mean Marshall? Marshall goes well with that list. Maybe even Dragon Shaman.

Marshal is probably safe, but dragonshaman is better than people give it credit for (it picks up a fair bit of steam once it gets going).

[Gnaeus]

Sorry, you're right... it's Marshall.

OK. I second Marshall.


Dragon Shaman, I've heard, can be the focus of some really broken things.

Really? I mean, its better than Marshall, but broken? Could someone elaborate on this? The ones I have seen in play have underwhelmed me.

[Darth Stabber]

OK. I second Marshall.
Really? I mean, its better than Marshall, but broken? Could someone elaborate on this? The ones I have seen in play have underwhelmed me.

Broken theoretical builds, not with normal practical optimization. It's more competant than it seems, but not stellar. I update the list.

[Kylarra]

It's not a true Gestalt, but you could probably just give the Monk the PsyWar progression (a pseudo Tashalatora).

I don't think that NPC classes should be on this list, they aren't expected to keep pace with "normal" classes. Otherwise you better be adding the warrior to the list. :smalltongue:

[Darth Stabber]

I don't think that NPC classes should be on this list, they aren't expected to keep pace with "normal" classes. Otherwise you better be adding the warrior to the list. :smalltongue:

Actually, the presence of Expert and Adept are good. While they are not great, giving monks a weak caster progression, or making a skill savvy samurai seem kinda cool. And expert and adept are both above samurai in terms of tiers.

[Darth Stabber]

Put Knight on approved list. Any other thoughts?

[Noneoyabizzness]

Lurk.

And warmage needs love dang it.

[Prime32]

Yo dawg, I heard you like classes. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10511)

[Darth Stabber]

Lurk.

And warmage needs love dang it.

Actually, I don't think warmages are unloved enough to qualify. They are very competant at the one thing they do (blow stuff up) and from what I've seen of the classes listed, it would likely out perform any of the current possible combinations listed. And considering the spell casters on the list, that is a lot of magic to be adding. Warmage is actually too good for this list. Wow, I just said warmage was too good, I think a part of my soul just died. What does everyone else think?

[FMArthur]

Just so you know, this exact idea was done as part of JaronK's 'tier system' (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293) post on BG. It's option 2 in the House Rules section (the third post), and it's been in use for some time and works quite well IMO. So this has already been done for you. It's just missing a number of classes, so that's the only work left to do.

So Warmage can work fine if you limit its gestalt to NPC classes as usual Tier 4 routine. It is actually not incredibly good at blasting, being snubbed by most sources of spells that would benefit it.

[Veyr]

And warmage needs love dang it.
Someone recently suggested to me that you use a Warmage//Warlock in place of the two -- it seems like a quite solid an interesting caster, to me.