Online Petition to add the death penatly to all marvel and dc world cities!

[Traab]

Lets face it. Arkham is useless, no prison can hold magneto, and innocent people keep getting slaughtered when the bad guys break out for the umpteenth time. Lets end this here and now! If you have been arrested on more than 5 separate occasions for terrorism, murder, torture, and assorted mayhem. No more arkham asylum for you, Light up old sparky and let the bad guy ride the lightning!

Its been proven to be utterly pointless for the bad guys to be locked up, as that just gives the city a week or two to rebuild before they escape yet again and go on another rampage. How many poor innocent security guards have wound up laughing themselves to death? Or got the kiss of death from ivy? Or were gutted by sabertooth? How many more innocents have to die before the revolving door of justice finally gets jammed shut?

Join with me, brothers and sisters! Let us join together and put a halt to the never ending cycle of super villain violence!
__________________

[Friv]

Wouldn't help. Dead supervillains merely return to life a year or two later, with the revelation that you actually killed their clone, or their brother, or some totally unrelated guy, or else they actually resurrect after swearing their souls to a demon or clawing their way out of Hell.

Happens all the time. Death is, in fact, slightly worse at holding villains than prison is, because you can still write for them while they're in prison.

[Traab]

Hmm, you may be right. But my theory is it doesnt work so well because it isnt done often enough! A man can only have so many clones, or make so many demon pacts before they stay dead. And its one thing to kill a replacement in the heat of battle, but thats the sort of thing that would be discovered fairly quickly by competent medical staff right before the execution.

[Douglas]

Sadly, you're proposing an in-universe solution for a problem whose real roots are out-universe. Fixing this problem would require convincing Marvel and DC to institute company policy to make their villains Killed Off For Real and actually hold to it - and as long as there's money to be made in showing the villains coming back and facing off with the heroes again, that's just Not Going To Happen.

The only realistic way to fix this problem is to get a large fraction of the total audience for these comics to agree on a list of criteria for when a villain should be removed forever, publish it, and then boycott any issue or series that violates it. Even then you'd probably have to force at least three or four otherwise good publications to completely tank, and make a huge fuss about exactly why, before anyone with authority to do something about it would actually listen.

[darkblade]

I'm not even going to get into the futility of making any lasting impact on the big two's status quos that will last more than a couple years. I'm just going to skip right to the in universe logic.

So how is the chair supposed to work for guys like Electro, Livewire or the Shocker? People who already have more electrical current in their bodies than we can produce without ignitnig the prison. Even assuming we ignore your statement and go to Lethal injection or any other method of execution then we still have hundreds of villians that are immune to anything we can throw at them.

Also what do we do about criminals like Doomsday, Lobo, Sinestro, The Reach, White Martians, General Zod and other aliens? Most of their crimes have been commited well outside any Earth based agency's jurisdiction. All we could really do extradite them their homeworld if they are wanted there or the Green Lantern Corps for anyone else.

What about Trigon, Mephisto or Dormanu? How do you try entities of pure evil? Hell, how do you try anyone on crimes involving magic? What physical evidence is there that they did it? Usually none except the evidence found through illegal search and sezure by a magical hero who not only obtained the evidence through unlawful means but can't destify in court without unmasking. What about Loki, Ares, or Darksied? You can't press charges on a God.

What about Wonder Woman's, Aquaman's, the Inhuman's or Namor's and Black Panther's villians or Dr. Doom? Villians who are from fictional countries with their own legal policies? How does that work in? You can't execute a foregin national, especially not when that foregin power has super weapons that could destroy North America in the blink of an eye.

Now let's assume that all of those problems have been dealt with. So what? Death is almost as much of a revolving door as the Prisons. Want to know a bit of triva? The Joker died in his first Golden Age appearence. That doesn't stop him from coming back and killing more people. Hell there is Ra's Ah Ghul and Vanadl Savage who both have the main gimic of being immortal. Max Lord, Captain Boomerang, Zoom (the reverse Flash) were all just resurected by a mysterious life granting entity in the DC universe. That three supervillians who just came back without even anyone doing anything to specicically make it happen. Through clones, time travel, magic and other plot devices the allies and/followers of any killed supervillian can bring him back with a little work.

[Friv]

Hmm, you may be right. But my theory is it doesnt work so well because it isnt done often enough!
Magneto has died eight times so far in the main Marvel universe. That's one death every five years of real, or roughly one death every two years of in-universe time. How much more often do you need?


A man can only have so many clones, or make so many demon pacts before they stay dead. And its one thing to kill a replacement in the heat of battle, but thats the sort of thing that would be discovered fairly quickly by competent medical staff right before the execution.

Wouldn't matter. No one in comics can die forever.

If you're assuming enough genre awareness that people understand that prisons can't hold villains, you also need enough genre awareness to know that they can't die either.

[Traab]

I'm not even going to get into the futility of making any lasting impact on the big two's status quos that will last more than a couple years. I'm just going to skip right to the in universe logic.

So how is the chair supposed to work for guys like Electro, Livewire or the Shocker? People who already have more electrical current in their bodies than we can produce without ignitnig the prison. Even assuming we ignore your statement and go to Lethal injection or any other method of execution then we still have hundreds of villians that are immune to anything we can throw at them.

Also what do we do about criminals like Doomsday, Lobo, Sinestro, The Reach, White Martians, General Zod and other aliens? Most of their crimes have been commited well outside any Earth based agency's jurisdiction. All we could really do extradite them their homeworld if they are wanted there or the Green Lantern Corps for anyone else.

What about Trigon, Mephisto or Dormanu? How do you try entities of pure evil? Hell, how do you try anyone on crimes involving magic? What physical evidence is there that they did it? Usually none except the evidence found through illegal search and sezure by a magical hero who not only obtained the evidence through unlawful means but can't destify in court without unmasking. What about Loki, Ares, or Darksied? You can't press charges on a God.

What about Wonder Woman's, Aquaman's, the Inhuman's or Namor's and Black Panther's villians or Dr. Doom? Villians who are from fictional countries with their own legal policies? How does that work in? You can't execute a foregin national, especially not when that foregin power has super weapons that could destroy North America in the blink of an eye.

Now let's assume that all of those problems have been dealt with. So what? Death is almost as much of a revolving door as the Prisons. Want to know a bit of triva? The Joker died in his first Golden Age appearence. That doesn't stop him from coming back and killing more people. Hell there is Ra's Ah Ghul and Vanadl Savage who both have the main gimic of being immortal. Max Lord, Captain Boomerang, Zoom (the reverse Flash) were all just resurected by a mysterious life granting entity in the DC universe. That three supervillians who just came back without even anyone doing anything to specicically make it happen. Through clones, time travel, magic and other plot devices the allies and/followers of any killed supervillian can bring him back with a little work.

Well I just mentioned old sparky for descriptive value, there are dozens of ways to execute someone.

As for off world bad guys, we can only prosecute them for crimes commited on earth. And I dont think we have an extradition treaty with darkseids home world, or any other planet.

As for underworld bad guys, demons and such? Get doctor strange to work on binding them in their home dimension or something along those lines. Isnt that one of the things he DOES? Its not perfect, but if that doesnt work, there is always binding them in some sort of null void dimension where they are firmly removed from their seats of power and have no clear method of returning.

As for the whole villains from earth based countries that arent in the united nations, same thing. We can only prosecute for crimes committed in our jurisdictions. And once again, no extradition treaty means wonder woman can suck it if she wants some crazed amazon returned to her familiy's island after she went on a killing spree in metropolis.


I dont know about That Van guy, but Ras, doesnt he need to get his dead body dropped in a lazarus pit to come back to life? Thats why god invented cremation. Scatter the ashes and give talia an urn full of cigarette butts. Let her resurrect the marlboro cowboy.

I know we cant anticipate random acts of gods or other omnipotent beings randomly resurrecting bad guys, but its still better than putting them into an asylum they already broke out of 4 times that year, and thinking that will do anything! And you cant really bring into this deaths where there is no body, nobody ever bothered to check to make sure, its just, "Oh, he fell off a cliff/into a vat of acid/got blown up! He MUST be dead!" Im talking Green Mile style, "Electricity shall be passed through your brain until you are dead. May god have mercy on your soul. Roll on 2!" style death, where there are witnesses, the doctor checks right then and there, then maybe we roll him into the next room so he can be embalmed on the spot just to make extra sure.

[darkblade]

Well I just mentioned old sparky for descriptive value, there are dozens of ways to execute someone.

Okay great. How do you execute the Juggernaut? He's invulnerable to anything we can throw at him. How do you execute Magneto? The chair is right out, as are bullets. Lethal injection requires metal needles so that's out. He can float so hanging doesn't work either.


As for off world bad guys, we can only prosecute them for crimes commited on earth. And I dont think we have an extradition treaty with darkseids home world, or any other planet.

The Marvel Earth does have treaties with most major galactic players throught SWORD and DC's Earth has direct ties to the Green Lantern Corps for extraterrestrial criminals.


As for underworld bad guys, demons and such? Get doctor strange to work on binding them in their home dimension or something along those lines. Isnt that one of the things he DOES? Its not perfect, but if that doesnt work, there is always binding them in some sort of null void dimension where they are firmly removed from their seats of power and have no clear method of returning.

That's been done. Several times in fact. It's as much a revolving door as a regular prison.


As for the whole villains from earth based countries that arent in the united nations, same thing. We can only prosecute for crimes committed in our jurisdictions. And once again, no extradition treaty means wonder woman can suck it if she wants some crazed amazon returned to her familiy's island after she went on a killing spree in metropolis.

90% of the fictional countries are part of their world's UN.



I dont know about That Van guy, but Ras, doesnt he need to get his dead body dropped in a lazarus pit to come back to life? Thats why god invented cremation. Scatter the ashes and give talia an urn full of cigarette butts. Let her resurrect the marlboro cowboy.

I'm pretty sure you need consent for cremation.


I know we cant anticipate random acts of gods or other omnipotent beings randomly resurrecting bad guys, but its still better than putting them into an asylum they already broke out of 4 times that year, and thinking that will do anything!

Not when they have been killed, had an autopsy, and been burried and then still manage to come back in a year. At least you know where they are when are put into ineffective prisons.


And you cant really bring into this deaths where there is no body, nobody ever bothered to check to make sure, its just, "Oh, he fell off a cliff/into a vat of acid/got blown up! He MUST be dead!" Im talking Green Mile style, "Electricity shall be passed through your brain until you are dead. May god have mercy on your soul. Roll on 2!" style death, where there are witnesses, the doctor checks right then and there, then maybe we roll him into the next room so he can be embalmed on the spot just to make extra sure.

The death's I'm talking about are.

Captain Boomerang (Identity Crisis - 2004) - Shot in the head at point blank range by a handgun. While he didn't get a proper autopsy because the world started ending shortly there after the fact that he had a giant hole where his face should have been suggested he was quite dead.

Max Lord (Infinite Crisis - 2005) - Had his neck snapped on national TV by Wonder Woman which was immediately followed by an extensive autopsy as part of the murder investigation on Wonder Woman.

Professor Zoom (Flash Vol. 1 #324 - 1964) - Had his neck snapped by the Flash at superspeed, body was cremated afterward.


These are all pretty difinitive deaths.

[The Big Dice]

If you kill off all the good villains, who does the hero fight next month?

[Traab]

1) Magneto gets decapitated by a ceramic blade, pull a doomsday with juggy and strap him to a rocket heading for outer space. Preferably heading for the sun.

2)I thought the lantern corps disbanded? Gah, I dont follow dc very close, my main point being, if these aliens are tearing up jupiter, then send them back to their planet for justice. they wanna tear up metropolis? If sending them back home didnt workt he first couple times, its our turn.

3)In marvel or DC world, even gods can die. Find a way.

4)Then when they prove incapable of handling their own prisoners, or at least keeping them in their jurisdiction, we take over. Same as with aliens.

5) Im fairly sure that an exemption can be made when they can take the body and bring it back to life.

6) Once again, you cant cover everything, and random ultimate powers bringing back the dead isnt something that can be planned for. Its a lot harder to come back from the dead than it is to walk out the apparently never locked door of all prisons on earth in comic book land.

7) And they WERE dead. I was talking about ignoring any of the "assumed dead" type deaths. I know that that is or was a common theme. Some bad guy would be seen inside a burning building or whatever, the next panel shows the building collapsing, everyone presumes the bad guy couldnt have escaped, and ignores the lack of a body. Then a few months later, bad guy returns, with a new scar or something, and starts the cycle all over again.

[Traab]

If you kill off all the good villains, who does the hero fight next month?


Nobody, the heroes finally get to take a damn vacation. Most of them dont seem to LIKE having to fight crime 24/7. They do it because there isnt anyone else that can handle the bad guys. Im sure if the bad guys finally got shuffled off the mortal coil, most of them would heave a sigh of relief, hang up their spandex, and get a real job. (or do better at the one they currently have)

[Douglas]

Nobody, the heroes finally get to take a damn vacation. Most of them dont seem to LIKE having to fight crime 24/7. They do it because there isnt anyone else that can handle the bad guys. Im sure if the bad guys finally got shuffled off the mortal coil, most of them would heave a sigh of relief, hang up their spandex, and get a real job. (or do better at the one they currently have)
But who would pay to read about that? Or rather, what portion of the current target audience would pay to read about that?

[The Big Dice]

Nobody, the heroes finally get to take a damn vacation. Most of them dont seem to LIKE having to fight crime 24/7. They do it because there isnt anyone else that can handle the bad guys. Im sure if the bad guys finally got shuffled off the mortal coil, most of them would heave a sigh of relief, hang up their spandex, and get a real job. (or do better at the one they currently have)
See Bruce Wayne in a meeting! Gasp as Peter Parker teaches a class! Be amazed by Wolverine getting drunk!

Man I wish they'd just end some characters.

[Mina Kobold]

But who would pay to read about that? Or rather, what portion of the current target audience would pay to read about that?

Slice-of-life fans? Fans of wacky sitcoms?

I'm personally against killing anyone for any reason, never compromise, life is precious, yadda yadda Batman yadda.

Tally ho, there have been plenty issues without direct villains or any super-hero action at all. Runaways is pretty notorious for being good at that.

Most well known is the Teen Titans issue entirely about Starfire and Raven talking about relationships. Supposedly it's pretty good. ^_^

[Traab]

Its not about entertaining people, its about actually doing what it takes to end the threat of criminals so horrible, and so powerful, that no prison can hold them, and every time they break out, they cause untold levels of death destruction, and pain wherever they go.

In all honesty, its more about batmans villains in my mind. Think about it. He may not have the strongest bad guys. But he DOES have most of the sickest. His bad guys tend to be the ones that target innocents at random with various cruel and nasty methods. Fear dust, joker laughing gas, whatever. Superman or spidermans villains tend to get in, rob the bank, then leave, with a bit of scuffling with their superhero enemy to round things off. Its rare that the innocent are targeted.

[kpenguin]

Its not about entertaining people, its about actually doing what it takes to end the threat of criminals so horrible, and so powerful, that no prison can hold them, and every time they break out, they cause untold levels of death destruction, and pain wherever they go.

Except, it is about entertaining people. The villains exist in the land of fiction, a land with the purpose to entertain.Therefore, the death, destruction, and pain is all nonexistent... save for any mental anguish caused by reading.

[Erts]

Its not about entertaining people, its about actually doing what it takes to end the threat of criminals so horrible, and so powerful, that no prison can hold them, and every time they break out, they cause untold levels of death destruction, and pain wherever they go.

In all honesty, its more about batmans villains in my mind. Think about it. He may not have the strongest bad guys. But he DOES have most of the sickest. His bad guys tend to be the ones that target innocents at random with various cruel and nasty methods. Fear dust, joker laughing gas, whatever. Superman or spidermans villains tend to get in, rob the bank, then leave, with a bit of scuffling with their superhero enemy to round things off. Its rare that the innocent are targeted.

New criminals come up. Always.
In the DC Universe incredible technology is so much more accessible to the common man and mental health is at such a poor level that they pretty much always come up.
For example, look up Professor Pig. He came up as a new villain with his entire cast. New guy.

[Traab]

Except, it is about entertaining people. The villains exist in the land of fiction, a land with the purpose to entertain.Therefore, the death, destruction, and pain is all nonexistent... save for any mental anguish caused by reading.

BAH! You think the mayor of gotham cares about entertaining us with hilarious stories of how many of his voters, err I mean citizens got slaughtered by an enraged clayface this week? It may be the land of fiction, but come on! How many innocents must die just to slake your unholy lust for cartoon snuff films?!

[Mina Kobold]

BAH! You think the mayor of gotham cares about entertaining us with hilarious stories of how many of his voters, err I mean citizens got slaughtered by an enraged clayface this week? It may be the land of fiction, but come on! How many innocents must die just to slake your unholy lust for cartoon snuff films?!

Seven quadrillion and three per story to be exact.

The mayor may not care but the all-powerful entities controlling all of reality do and thus Death will always fail in the end. Oh, and the writers care too. :smalltongue:

In-Universe I'd say it has to do with the villains easily being able to stop such an act from even being legalised in Gotham and few heroes powerful enough are actually willing to kill.

[comicshorse]

This is why the DC universe has the Suicide Squad, at least that way you get some use out of the supervillains before they're back on the streets.
Though I seem to remember a storyline where the government was rounding up supervillains and dumping them on an alien planet. That seemed the perfect answer, hard to escape from, they're not dead so they can't come back and frankly making them endure each other seems the perfect punishment. Bet it all ended up going hideously wrong mind

[Friv]

Its not about entertaining people, its about actually doing what it takes to end the threat of criminals so horrible, and so powerful, that no prison can hold them, and every time they break out, they cause untold levels of death destruction, and pain wherever they go.

In all honesty, its more about batmans villains in my mind. Think about it. He may not have the strongest bad guys. But he DOES have most of the sickest. His bad guys tend to be the ones that target innocents at random with various cruel and nasty methods. Fear dust, joker laughing gas, whatever. Superman or spidermans villains tend to get in, rob the bank, then leave, with a bit of scuffling with their superhero enemy to round things off. Its rare that the innocent are targeted.

The part that you seem to be ignoring is that cardboard prisons only exist because the story demands that these villains be able to escape time and time again. In-universe, there's no real reason for Arkham to be designed such that the Riddler or Two-Face can keep breaking out.

So anyone changing the laws to reflect that these guys keep breaking out need to be aware of the fact that their world doesn't follow logic, at which point they'll know that killing the villains will just make things worse, so they won't do it.

[grimbold]

i think that there already is a death penalty in marvel and DC cities
however as in the real world there is a several month (or year) long period of court processing thats how magneto has time to escape he isnt going to be killed until after months or years of court preparations

[Traab]

i think that there already is a death penalty in marvel and DC cities
however as in the real world there is a several month (or year) long period of court processing thats how magneto has time to escape he isnt going to be killed until after months or years of court preparations


You know, that brings up an interesting question. Say we get our own nasty psycho mass murdering bastard like the joker in the real world. He carves up a few dozen people, he gets arrested, tried, and convicted. He gets the death penalty. But then he manages to escape, and kill off another several dozen people. Would we retry him for these new crimes? Put him back on death row? Maybe expedite the process a bit so he cant get the chance to escape again?

[Mina Kobold]

i think that there already is a death penalty in marvel and DC cities
however as in the real world there is a several month (or year) long period of court processing thats how magneto has time to escape he isnt going to be killed until after months or years of court preparations

No villain in Gotham or Metropolis ever received death penalty to my knowledge.

Magneto is also so powerful that there is literally nothing they can do permanently in fear of him dropping asteroid M on New York or something.


You know, that brings up an interesting question. Say we get our own nasty psycho mass murdering bastard like the joker in the real world. He carves up a few dozen people, he gets arrested, tried, and convicted. He gets the death penalty. But then he manages to escape, and kill off another several dozen people. Would we retry him for these new crimes? Put him back on death row? Maybe expedite the process a bit so he cant get the chance to escape again?

I think it's legal for the government of America to give him the punishment he was supposed to get if he escapes but I don't know much about the death penalty. :/

Isn't the Joker always in Arkham because he is too insane to be considered responsible for what he does? Pledging insanity and all.

[G-Man Graves]

All of Batman's criminals (not sure about the rest of the losers) have really good lawyers that get them off on insanity.

[Erts]

Traab, just a quick question. This is not meant to be a personal jab at all. But have you read any Batman comics? I don't mean it sarcastically, I mean it honestly. Please don't take it as such.

[Ravens_cry]

All of Batman's criminals (not sure about the rest of the losers) have really good lawyers that get them off on insanity.
Not to mention that for many of Batmans villains, the insanity plea defence actually applies to them; they are indeed insane.

[Traab]

Traab, just a quick question. This is not meant to be a personal jab at all. But have you read any Batman comics? I don't mean it sarcastically, I mean it honestly. Please don't take it as such.


Ive read a few, but not many. Im mostly a marvel fan. Most of my batman experience comes from the dozens of movies, tv shows and cartoons, as well as cartoon movies that have been released. I have read a few of his comics here and there, most notably, I believe I read the ones where bane broke batmans spine. But that was years ago iirc.

[Marnath]

Magneto is also so powerful that there is literally nothing they can do permanently in fear of him dropping asteroid M on New York or something.


Get him in one of those plastic prisons he keeps breaking out of, and then break his freaking neck with your bare hands. That'll kill him.

Also, it's cute how you guys are going on about trials and jurisdiction, as if the concept of just murdering these people didn't occur to you.:smallamused: They can't break out of prison/the asylum if you took care of it yourself.

[Traab]

Get him in one of those plastic prisons he keeps breaking out of, and then break his freaking neck with your bare hands. That'll kill him.

Also, it's cute how you guys are going on about trials and jurisdiction, as if the concept of just murdering these people didn't occur to you.:smallamused: They can't break out of prison/the asylum if you took care of it yourself.

Yeah, I mean honestly. batman projects this aura of badassery. He is the tough guy, the kick your ass till you beg for mercy sort of hardass. And what does he do? He drags his enemies off to jail over and over and over again. He is supposed to be this big smart guy, the detective who can figure anything out. And yet he cant seem to figure out that the world would be a far better place if the joker were to "accidentally" fall onto one of his own damn buzzers till smoke stops pouring out his ears. If the scarecrow should happen to be hit by an out of control truck when the dirver was "influenced by his fear dust" If Ivy should happen to trip in her greenhouse and strangle herself on her own vines. If mister freeze should choke to death on an ice cream bar. I could go on. He is already a vigilante. He is already taking the law into his own hands. He has seen the death terror and pain these people keep bringing to gotham, and that the justice system isnt doing anything effective to stop them. Man up Bats. You wanted to stop these villains? Its time to actually do just that.

[darkblade]

6) Once again, you cant cover everything, and random ultimate powers bringing back the dead isnt something that can be planned for. Its a lot harder to come back from the dead than it is to walk out the apparently never locked door of all prisons on earth in comic book land.

7) And they WERE dead. I was talking about ignoring any of the "assumed dead" type deaths. I know that that is or was a common theme. Some bad guy would be seen inside a burning building or whatever, the next panel shows the building collapsing, everyone presumes the bad guy couldnt have escaped, and ignores the lack of a body. Then a few months later, bad guy returns, with a new scar or something, and starts the cycle all over again.

The returning from the dead happens every bit as often as escaping from the useless prisons and in modern comics everytime someone with a name dies it is on panel in over the top gore filled detail. There are no never found the body deaths anymore. That doesn't stop everyyone with a little bit of name reconition from coming back from the dead even more pissed off to kill twice as many people as they did last time they were alive. Death is just another cardboard prison to supervillians.


Though I seem to remember a storyline where the government was rounding up supervillains and dumping them on an alien planet. That seemed the perfect answer, hard to escape from, they're not dead so they can't come back and frankly making them endure each other seems the perfect punishment. Bet it all ended up going hideously wrong mind

It was a potentially good idea but since it was part of Countdown to Final Crisis the less said about it the better.


No villain in Gotham or Metropolis ever received death penalty to my knowledge.


The Joker was twice. Once he was killed but he sold his soul to a demon to be returned to life (and for a box of Cuban Cigars). The other time it was for a crime he didn't actually commit and Batman got him off by catching the real killer.


Get him in one of those plastic prisons he keeps breaking out of, and then break his freaking neck with your bare hands. That'll kill him.


Yeah good luck with that. Break the neck of the man who can disrupt the flow of bioelectrical energy to your brain or rip all the iron out of your blood with a thought.

Thats usually how he escapes the plastic prisons, someone sets it up so they can do just that and he then uses their corpse to escape.


Not to mention that for many of Batmans villains, the insanity plea defence actually applies to them; they are indeed insane.

No, very few of Batman's rogues are criminally insane. Two-Face, The Riddler and some versions of the Joker (not the ones from the Nolan or Burton movies) are about the only well known ones who's insanity renders them unable to have acted differently and therefore not guilty by reason of insanity. The rest all know what they are doing is wrong and don't care or just plain aren't really crazy at all ~cough~Penguin~cough~.

[Marnath]

Yeah good luck with that. Break the neck of the man who can disrupt the flow of bioelectrical energy to your brain or rip all the iron out of your blood with a thought.

Thats usually how he escapes the plastic prisons, someone sets it up so they can do just that and he then uses their corpse to escape.


Doesn't the blood iron thing require an injection to bring it to levels worth mentioning? Also, to your claim he can disrupt the energy in your brain: {Citation Needed}

Seriously. how does that relate to his powers over magnetism, like at all?

[kpenguin]

Because your brain runs on electromagnetic impulses and Magneto is... well... the master of magnetism.


No, very few of Batman's rogues are criminally insane. Two-Face, The Riddler and some versions of the Joker (not the ones from the Nolan or Burton movies) are about the only well known ones who's insanity renders them unable to have acted differently and therefore not guilty by reason of insanity. The rest all know what they are doing is wrong and don't care or just plain aren't really crazy at all ~cough~Penguin~cough~.

How about the Ventriloquist or Maxie Zeus. The former's criminality is usually protrayed as being caused by his split personality and the latter literally has perception of reality altered by his delusions.

[Mina Kobold]

Get him in one of those plastic prisons he keeps breaking out of, and then break his freaking neck with your bare hands. That'll kill him.

Also, it's cute how you guys are going on about trials and jurisdiction, as if the concept of just murdering these people didn't occur to you.:smallamused: They can't break out of prison/the asylum if you took care of it yourself.

They tried that with the nineties anti-heroes. The nineties are these days considered the dark and dork age of comics due to the infamy that idea received. They even had to invent venom to save Spiderman from losing his fanbase.

Besides, what do you think the reaction would be if Superman decided that he can kill whoever he deems evil?

The alternate universe version that just lobotomises villains in the DCAU was considered so evil that the regular universe Superman went to Lex Luther for help.

Yes, Superman says that being a tyrant deciding who lives and who dies is worse than Lex Luther. :smalleek::smalltongue:


Yeah, I mean honestly. batman projects this aura of badassery. He is the tough guy, the kick your ass till you beg for mercy sort of hardass. And what does he do? He drags his enemies off to jail over and over and over again. He is supposed to be this big smart guy, the detective who can figure anything out. And yet he cant seem to figure out that the world would be a far better place if the joker were to "accidentally" fall onto one of his own damn buzzers till smoke stops pouring out his ears. If the scarecrow should happen to be hit by an out of control truck when the dirver was "influenced by his fear dust" If Ivy should happen to trip in her greenhouse and strangle herself on her own vines. If mister freeze should choke to death on an ice cream bar. I could go on. He is already a vigilante. He is already taking the law into his own hands. He has seen the death terror and pain these people keep bringing to gotham, and that the justice system isnt doing anything effective to stop them. Man up Bats. You wanted to stop these villains? Its time to actually do just that.

Batman has a few reasons not to do that. :smallsmile:

First of all, Batman know how close he is to villainous insanity himself, that the Joker is right about them being "not so different" and that "he who fights monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster". He knows that if he ever compromised his principles (one if which being to never kill) he could just as well end up being the one we argue whether should be put to death or not. :smalleek:

Then there's the biggest reason, these are not inhuman monsters (well, not entirely inhuman), they have families, people who care for them. Batman vowed ever to let anyone lose their parents like he did, thus why he never ever and not in a million years will kill.

How do you think Harley Quinn would react to him just letting the Joker die? She would be miserable, on the verge of suicide even, and it would all be Batman's fault. :smallfrown:

But if you want them dead then there are actually heroes who do are not afraid of doing that, the Punisher could do the job pretty well. :smallsmile:

Wouldn't work for very long but he could do it. ^_^

[Traab]

I understand the whole slippery slope argument, but there are limits to it. You cant just say, "since one day you might punish someone who doesnt deserve it, we shouldnt ever punish anybody." Thats basically your point. Im not talking about killing every villain in the roster, im talking about killing all the pschyo genocidal madmen who have no problem killing people at random just for the heck of it. There are an awful lot of bad guys so obsessed with their personal nemesis, that their entire focus is on them and very rarely if ever do they target the innocent. (Worst case is generally a hostage situation, hardly death penalty worthy by any measure)

As far as even madmen have families, I like how you jumped to harley quinn. She is virtually the only person to be negatively effected by joker, or really, any of the rogues getting killed. And you know what? Shes a criminal too. So yeah, she would be depressed and all of that, but maybe without the joker around to keep her insanely devoted, she might be able to get some help and not be breaking out of jail every other week to go on another crime spree.

[darkblade]

Doesn't the blood iron thing require an injection to bring it to levels worth mentioning? Also, to your claim he can disrupt the energy in your brain: {Citation Needed}

Seriously. how does that relate to his powers over magnetism, like at all?

It won't be able to do much against someone else once it's out unless he has a sizable group of people to drain but having all of your blood ripped out of your body is going to kill you.

Also Power Creep Power Seep, modern day Magneto is not pure Magnetism but closer to Unified Field Theory. All physical forces are his to play with.


How about the Ventriloquist or Maxie Zeus. The former's criminality is usually protrayed as being caused by his split personality and the latter literally has perception of reality altered by his delusions.

When was the last time you seen Maxie Zeus? He's not one of the charcters that regularly escapes from cardboard prisons, in fact he quite likes it there and therefore isn't relevent to Bat villians that get sent to Arkham instead of more serious punishments.

I did forget about Ventriloquist though. Still most of Batman's better known villians; Catwoman, The Penguin, Black Mask, Poison Ivy, Mr. Freeze, Bane, etc do not belong in Arkham.

[Fjolnir]

The problem with killing Professor Zoom is that he's from the future, so he can in theory still exist anywhere in time...

[The Glyphstone]

Now I'm amusedly picturing a parody/comedy comic issue where Joker (yet again) breaks open Arkham, freeing all the inmates as cover for his own escape, only to be told by at least one of the other villains (a big-namer for extra points) to buzz off and leave them alone; Batman will have everyone locked up again by dark, so they might as well stay and not miss the strawberry pudding for dessert at lunchtime.

[Mina Kobold]

I understand the whole slippery slope argument, but there are limits to it. You cant just say, "since one day you might punish someone who doesnt deserve it, we shouldnt ever punish anybody." Thats basically your point. Im not talking about killing every villain in the roster, im talking about killing all the psycho genocidal madmen who have no problem killing people at random just for the heck of it. There are an awful lot of bad guys so obsessed with their personal nemesis, that their entire focus is on them and very rarely if ever do they target the innocent. (Worst case is generally a hostage situation, hardly death penalty worthy by any measure)

I don't say that you shouldn't punish anyone, merely that Batman canonically believes that compromising his principles will end with him being a villain himself and that his principles happen to include a vow against killing.

Batman believes that if he thought it was OK to kill the Joker then he could end up killing other villains who have or have tried to kill as well.

Then comes the point where he kills to prevent the murder of more, he kills those that he judges are not safe, those that does not fit his own ethics, etc.

And therein lies the problem from his perspective, if a hero starts killing then he essentially tells the law to shut it and decides what is good or evil himself.

Batman doesn't want that, he want the police and government to uphold the law in Gotham so he will no longer be needed. Thus why he works with Gordon.



As far as even madmen have families, I like how you jumped to harley quinn. She is virtually the only person to be negatively effected by joker, or really, any of the rogues getting killed. And you know what? Shes a criminal too. So yeah, she would be depressed and all of that, but maybe without the joker around to keep her insanely devoted, she might be able to get some help and not be breaking out of jail every other week to go on another crime spree.

Good point, but I believe in redemption over punishment so her being a criminal really doesn't convince me. Sorry. :smallsmile:

Funny thing is, there is actually someone working to get her out of that relationship and help her get a better life.

That someone is Poison Ivy.

Had Batman killed Ivy just a year or so ago In-Universe then Harley Quinn would be even worse off, not even a friend to seek support and help from when the Joker is mad at her and nearly gets her killed.

But that is getting perhaps a bit too close to a discussion on the nature of morality and I'm not sure those are a good idea so I won't bore everybody with half a page of it now. ^_^'

[Traab]

I don't say that you shouldn't punish anyone, merely that Batman canonically believes that compromising his principles will end with him being a villain himself and that his principles happen to include a vow against killing.

Batman believes that if he thought it was OK to kill the Joker then he could end up killing other villains who have or have tried to kill as well.

Then comes the point where he kills to prevent the murder of more, he kills those that he judges are not safe, those that does not fit his own ethics, etc.

And therein lies the problem from his perspective, if a hero starts killing then he essentially tells the law to shut it and decides what is good or evil himself.

Batman doesn't want that, he want the police and government to uphold the law in Gotham so he will no longer be needed. Thus why he works with Gordon.



Good point, but I believe in redemption over punishment so her being a criminal really doesn't convince me. Sorry. :smallsmile:

Funny thing is, there is actually someone working to get her out of that relationship and help her get a better life.

That someone is Poison Ivy.

Had Batman killed Ivy just a year or so ago In-Universe then Harley Quinn would be even worse off, not even a friend to seek support and help from when the Joker is mad at her and nearly gets her killed.

But that is getting perhaps a bit too close to a discussion on the nature of morality and I'm not sure those are a good idea so I won't bore everybody with half a page of it now. ^_^'


So like I said, the slippery slope argument. Im not advocating killing the entire gallery, not even close. Just the ones who, by their own actions, have earned a death penalty 10x over. The whole doing it himself thing was more of a, If gotham cant keep them locked up long enough to execute according to law, then there should be a shoot on site order in place, type of thing. I honestly ask you this. If in america there was a brutal murderer. A man who has tortured, killed, and terrorized an entire city. Who had gotten arrested tried and convicted, and sentenced with a death penalty, but he somehow kept on escaping to kill even more, would the cops eventually be given carte blanche to execute him on sight?

As for harley, I was actually talking about redemption. I meant, that she is a loony criminal, so she should get shipped off to arkham, where she can get psychological treatment to help her deal with the death of Mister J. I figured, maybe without him being around anymore, she would stand a shot at recovery.

[Mina Kobold]

So like I said, the slippery slope argument. Im not advocating killing the entire gallery, not even close. Just the ones who, by their own actions, have earned a death penalty 10x over. The whole doing it himself thing was more of a, If gotham cant keep them locked up long enough to execute according to law, then there should be a shoot on site order in place, type of thing. I honestly ask you this. If in america there was a brutal murderer. A man who has tortured, killed, and terrorized an entire city. Who had gotten arrested tried and convicted, and sentenced with a death penalty, but he somehow kept on escaping to kill even more, would the cops eventually be given carte blanche to execute him on sight?

I know, the slippery slope argument is that if you say "I won't kill but with this one I will make an exception" at first then, according to Batman, you will eventually continue making exceptions until you reach the point of evil.

I also tried, poorly, to point out that Batman only exist as long as the Gotham PD can't uphold the law themselves and as such he won't do the job himself.

Got no idea about that last bit though, death penalty is not an option over here, but I assume so. My guess is that Batman would then allow the police to kill the Joker when he hand him in if he believes the cops are just in doing so or find another way to stop the Joker until he can convince the government they're wrong.


As for Harley, I was actually talking about redemption. I meant, that she is a loony criminal, so she should get shipped off to arkham, where she can get psychological treatment to help her deal with the death of Mister J. I figured, maybe without him being around anymore, she would stand a shot at recovery.

So is the Joker, he is even loonier, so why not try to give him psychological treatment too?

Just a question, but why would they need Mr. J dead for them to be able to help Harley? I'm not sure I follow. ^_^'

But my point with that was more that the one who actually made progress with her was another villain (She's been in Arkham so they must have at least tried) and that may be worth a few thoughts.

What if we one day cured the Joker and he saved the world? What if we killed him and the world wasn't saved?

I'd say we should try to help him, it may never work but this is a world of jet-powered apes and gods where a man can dress up as a bat to scare criminals so who knows? :smallsmile:

[Traab]

So is the Joker, he is even loonier, so why not try to give him psychological treatment too?

Just a question, but why would they need Mr. J dead for them to be able to help Harley? I'm not sure I follow. ^_^'

The joker is a different kind of looney. Every time ive seen him on screen he is either plotting to, or actually torturing and killing people. Harley, the reason why i think redemption is possible is, she is the follower, ad as far as im aware, she basically is obsessed with the joker, having fallen "deeply in love" with him after listening to his, probably made up, sob story of childhood abuse. So long as he is around, she will likely follow him in crime, what I read of her history in the wikki shows she has tried to go legit on several occasions. So get rid of joker, get her some therapy, and see where she goes from there.


What if we one day cured the Joker and he saved the world? What if we killed him and the world wasn't saved?

Are you kidding me? I think ill refer to you as dumbledoore from now on. Why are you so willing to sacrifice hundreds of innocent lives, on the off chance that one day the joker might get better? He is an unrepentant homicidal lunatic. Whats worse, is that its been proven dozens of times that locking him up does nothing. He escapes, and goes back to killing without skipping a beat.

[Mina Kobold]

The joker is a different kind of looney. Every time ive seen him on screen he is either plotting to, or actually torturing and killing people. Harley, the reason why i think redemption is possible is, she is the follower, ad as far as im aware, she basically is obsessed with the joker, having fallen "deeply in love" with him after listening to his, probably made up, sob story of childhood abuse. So long as he is around, she will likely follow him in crime, what I read of her history in the wikki shows she has tried to go legit on several occasions. So get rid of joker, get her some therapy, and see where she goes from there.

That is true, but in the instances where he did turn sane (sadly it has only happened when he is sure Batman is dead so it rarely last too long) he was actually a pretty nice guy so there's definite potential for curing him and turning him into a productive member of society.

I have yet to watch or read any origin for Harley put from what I know it seems more that she was fascinated with insanity/bored with life and Mr. J was so insane that he unintentionally (he isn't that happy with her obsession from what I've seen) made her mad about him/find a way to get out of boredom.

I do know that her comic has her see the world in HarleyVision where burning a minion to death looks like a Wile E. Coyote shenanigan, though. So she literally has no idea that she is killing people.



Are you kidding me? I think ill refer to you as dumbledoore from now on. Why are you so willing to sacrifice hundreds of innocent lives, on the off chance that one day the joker might get better? He is an unrepentant homicidal lunatic. Whats worse, is that its been proven dozens of times that locking him up does nothing. He escapes, and goes back to killing without skipping a beat.

Yay! I'm Dumbledore! ^_^

I am not advocating sacrifice, I just consider execution murder and murder to be unacceptable no matter what the victim did or did not do. At least at the moment. I may eventually change my mind, you never know. :smallsmile:

It's a fictional universe, they don't know the Joker will escape again, they hope he will be held there for good this time.

There's also the fact that the DC universe retroactively rearranges itself every few decades (Crisis on Infinite Earths, Countdown to Infinite Crisis, Final Crisis) so he may only have escaped a few times since his In-Universe debut while the Joker before the last Crisis was almost at the point of being executed.

On a related note, how long have the Joker spend in Arkham? I know he often escapes but if it In-Universe only happen every five years then it may not be as bad as we think. Still bad, but at least they show that they can keep him there for years and not just until he gets bored. :smallsmile:

[Traab]

The actual timing is vague since its not like a new issue is released daily to match the day to day life of batman. The main point of my argument is, if he escaped before, repeatedly, and you havent really changed anything, then what makes you think he wont escape a 4th time? Or a 5th? A 10th?

As for harley, the most familiar creation story I have is from one of the cartoons. In it, she was a psychologist at arkham, joker spun a sob story, she fell for him, and ended up joining him. He was an abusive bastard to her, but as is sadly common among battered spouses, she couldnt bring herself to leave him. She fell for Ivy at one point. Not sure if it was friends or more, and left for a time, but even so, there was always that pull to be back with her "puddin" She never personally killed anyone that im aware of, worst case she is accessory to murders, guilty of various assaults, kidnapping, robbery, etc. But that was just from the cartoon.

[Kris Strife]

She actually almost recovered until a misunderstanding with a store clerk made her regress. She went back and was going to get more treatment (things looked very good for her of course), and then came those final seasons where everything went downhill. :smallannoyed:

Also, as for why Batman can't give in and just off the Joker: if Batman kills him, the Joker wins.

[Mina Kobold]

The actual timing is vague since its not like a new issue is released daily to match the day to day life of batman. The main point of my argument is, if he escaped before, repeatedly, and you havent really changed anything, then what makes you think he wont escape a 4th time? Or a 5th? A 10th?

I sure hope they do change stuff, if they just ignore the issue then surely Arkham is whom Batman should be bringing to justice. :smalleek:



As for harley, the most familiar creation story I have is from one of the cartoons. In it, she was a psychologist at arkham, joker spun a sob story, she fell for him, and ended up joining him. He was an abusive bastard to her, but as is sadly common among battered spouses, she couldnt bring herself to leave him. She fell for Ivy at one point. Not sure if it was friends or more, and left for a time, but even so, there was always that pull to be back with her "puddin" She never personally killed anyone that im aware of, worst case she is accessory to murders, guilty of various assaults, kidnapping, robbery, etc. But that was just from the cartoon.

That is indeed very very very sad, but the Joker kind of have a tragic history as well.

He was merely a normal crook before he fell into a vat of acid and was driven insane by the pain. If they could just help him get over the trauma as well as help Harley get out of her's then it could all end happily without having to kill anyone.

Anyway, my redemption idealism aside, nobody dies in the Animated Series except for Batman and Robin's respective parents to my knowledge. But that's mostly based on the Joker gas being made non-lethal for it so I'm not sure.

But if I'm right then that version of J didn't kill anyone either so there's at least one version of the Joker that's not a complete psychopat. :smallsmile:

You know... Why does the writers always have him kill people? It just raises too many questions about why he isn't put to death when he kills a town whenever he escapes Arkham. :smallconfused:

I vote we vote they start giving us a little more variety instead of only having him be a mass-murderer or a harmless clown!

[Kris Strife]

It was lethal if the victim didn't get treatment, luckily Batman always carried the antidote around with him.

[Traab]

That is indeed very very very sad, but the Joker kind of have a tragic history as well.

He was merely a normal crook before he fell into a vat of acid and was driven insane by the pain. If they could just help him get over the trauma as well as help Harley get out of her's then it could all end happily without having to kill anyone.

The problem with that is, it doesnt happen. He escapes for the umpteenth time, and goes back to killing. At what point do we say, "His possible redemption is no longer worth the innocent lives its costing."? Thats the problem with those who believe in redemption so strongly. I prefer to worry about saving the innocent, while they prefer to try to save the guilty, at the expense of the innocent.

It would be a different story if say, the joker actually STAYED in the asylum. But he doesnt. He never does. How many innocents have to die before you will acknowledge that redeeming him wasnt worth the price?

[Mina Kobold]

The problem with that is, it doesnt happen. He escapes for the umpteenth time, and goes back to killing. At what point do we say, "His possible redemption is no longer worth the innocent lives its costing."? Thats the problem with those who believe in redemption so strongly. I prefer to worry about saving the innocent, while they prefer to try to save the guilty, at the expense of the innocent.

It would be a different story if say, the joker actually STAYED in the asylum. But he doesnt. He never does. How many innocents have to die before you will acknowledge that redeeming him wasnt worth the price?

That's not his or Batman's fault, if the writers want him to be out of Arkham then he is out of Arkham.

I personally think they should have him stay in the asylum in at least some versions, have the story actually proceed instead of keeping everything at the status quo everywhere. But that's another matter altogether.

It's not necessary for his redemption that he keeps killing, they should keep him from escaping instead. :smallsmile:

Also, somebody already mentioned that the Joker got out of death before so are we even sure it matters whether you kill him or put him in Arkham? :smallsmile:

It isn't the real world after all, there's definitely demons that can be bartered with so who knows what kind of mayhem the Joker could cause if he knew he was dying soon? :smalleek:

[Dr.Epic]

Even death has a revolving door considering how many characters have died and come back. We have resurrections (both through science and magic), portals to the underworld, cloning, regeneration, bringing them back as a robot or undead guy, and countless other methods. No, the only true way to kill a comic book character is to kill their fan base.