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The_Jackal
2011-03-25, 04:10 PM
I've been mulling some tweaks to V:tM revised edition, in advance of running a game for my regular group. In particular, I want to tame Celerity somewhat. In my experience, it's a little too dominant a combat attribute, to the point where if you don't have it, you're pretty much lunchmeat if your opponent has it and you don't. I mean, sure, it's only useful in a fight, but I know my group and fights will be happening a lot, Masquerade be damned.

Existing celerity is quite simple: Pay one blood per turn to get N extra actions, where N is the number of dots of Celerity you have. Celerity 3 means you pay one pool and get 4 actions, simple.

My change involves some changes to some base rules first, in particular, the multiple actions rules. Normally, you subtract the number of actions taken from the die pool of each action, then lose an additional die for each subsequent action after the first. Take three actions, the first roll is at -3, the second at -4, the third at -5. Again, not too complicated.

What I want to do is reduce the base penalty for multiple actions to the number of actions taken minus 1, so your 3 actions would face penalties of -2, -3, and -4, respectively. And celerity would interact with the multiple action rules as follows:

Celerity - Each turn, the vampire may offset penalties from perfoming multiple actions by twice her celerity rating. Doing so adds her celerity rating in dodge dice, rolled regardless of whether she dodges that turn.

Basically, the idea here is to merge the effects of celerity with the basic multiple action system, so non-celerity users aren't at such a large disadvantage. The dodge benefit is inspired by the nWoD celerity, compensating the loss of offensive ability with some defense, and finally, dispensing with the blood expenditure.

Thoughts?

Dingle
2011-03-26, 01:48 AM
so, someone with takeing 4 actions (and with celerity 3)
has penalties of :
-3(0), -4(0), -5(0), -6(0))

?
(same as old, except he gets to split farther if he wants to, doesn't act last, and gets bonus dodge dice, gets it on the 1st turn, and for free ?)


Unless I've misunderstood your rule, it's just the original celerity with all disadvantages removed, and bonus dodge dice.

please clarify if I'm wrong, and I'll be happy to help you adjust rules to get the feel/tone and balance you want.

MickJay
2011-03-26, 11:05 AM
Considering you can't split celerity actions for multiple actions anyway, this doesn't really help making celerity less broken. The only difference is, you're now doing all of your actions at once, rather then on consecutive actions.

The houserule I've seen used simply made each action taken with Celerity cost 1 blood (this was an exception to the limit on spending imposed by generation), being spent at the beginning of each consecutive action the character was taking.

Another was to limit celerity to x/2, rounded up, extra actions, where x=ranks in Celerity (so one extra action for C. 1 and 2, 2 extra for 3 and 4, and 3 extra for 5).

comicshorse
2011-03-26, 11:16 AM
The houserule I've seen used simply made each action taken with Celerity cost 1 blood (this was an exception to the limit on spending imposed by generation), being spent at the beginning of each consecutive action the character was taking.


That was actually an official rule. It was used in one of the Dark Ages Vampire books. Though it was never very popular

To adapt New Vampire rules you could have each Dot of Celerity add 1 to your Iniative, 1 dice to your Dodge and improve your Move rating by your Move rating ( so you can do that wonderful bit in "Interview with the Vampire" where Brad Pitt goes from one side of the room to the other in the blink of an eye to throttle Christian Slater)

Dingle
2011-03-26, 11:55 AM
did you have celerity actions occuring the turn after blood is spent?

the physical disciplines can be compared to thier respective attributes.

1 Potence ~=~ 2 STR (1 potence gives one success, and 2 strength gives an average of one success)

1 Celerity ~=~ 2 DEX* ( regular split:{-1, -2} => {-0(Cel) -1 -2} OR {-2(+2 =0) -3(+2 = -1) -4(+2 = -2)} which works out the same as with celerity)


1 Fortitude ~=~ 1 + (STA x % of damage which is agg)
(which varies but might add up to 2) STA

*using your new action splitting rules (the maths work out nicer)

The_Jackal
2011-03-28, 03:03 PM
Unless I've misunderstood your rule, it's just the original celerity with all disadvantages removed, and bonus dodge dice.

You have. You get a total of double your rating each turn. You're applying double the rating to each ACTION. So with the example you offered, 4 actions with 3 dots in celerity, the penalties would be as you say, -3, -4,-5, and -6, and exactly 6 of the 18 total dice lost to penalties would be restored. I don't specify which penalties you can offset, so you can do 0,-1,-5,-6, or -1,-2,-3,-6, or any other combination of offsets.

Also, it was my understanding that ALL multiple actions were sequenced by initiative, not just the ones from celerity, ie: everyone performs their first action, then anyone with a second action acts in the same initiative order as the first, repeating through the initiative order until all actions have been resolved. Then on the next turn, initiative is rerolled and the process starts over. That's certainly the way it would work in my house rule, with all multiple actions occurring in sequence, with celerity only serving to reduce penalties applied to those actions.


To adapt New Vampire rules...

No thank you. I do like the multiple action system in Vampire, I'm just trying to tame it relative to some of the other disciplines, and also tweak the multiple action rules to give non-celerity users a prayer of competing.

My objection to the Dark Ages rule (1 blood per action) is that it wildly skews the discipline in favor of low-generation vampires, who, to be honest, don't need the help. Spending 5 blood to get 6 actions is a huge gamble at Gen 12, it's a LOT less so at Gen 7. That's the other reason I wanted to drop the blood-cost to activate, as it lessens the skew of the power toward low-generation vampires.

Dingle
2011-03-29, 02:29 AM
ahh, I see, that makes more sense.

so, you're decreasing the power, but also removing any disadvantages.

and these dodge dice; when are they applied?
all on one dodge action?
all on one opponents action?
once each per turn (distributed as you want), only on dodge?
once each per turn (distributed as you want), in reaction to opponents actions?
added to every dodge action taken?
used against every action taken against you?

The_Jackal
2011-03-29, 01:33 PM
I figured to use them in the least constricting manner possible. If you're conducting an all-out defense, you add your celerity rating to your dodge die pool, and resolve normally. If you're not, you can either add them to the die pool for a dodge you take during your action, or apply them to a 'free' dodge rolling your celerity dice alone, or some combination of the two.

The one thing is that unless you're doing all out defense, the celerity dodge dice can only be rolled once per turn.

So basically:


once each per turn (distributed as you want), only on dodge?

With the exception of all-out defense, in which case they're treated just like additional dodge dice.

Dingle
2011-03-29, 01:38 PM
sounds good, have you done any playtesting of this?
I might get back to you if I can find an analytical method of calculating power; but the just try it a few times method should work just as well.

I might mention this to my vampire ST (I'm the guy who thinks about rules and points out the effects of house rules between sessions; but he doesn't like maths so I get replies in rant form)
or my werewolf ST (who doesn't mind rules) if she runs a vamp game and is unhappy about celerity

The_Jackal
2011-03-29, 01:42 PM
No playtesting yet, I just wanted to sanity-check it on this board before I try it out on my players. Thank for the feedback, it definitely helps me clarify my rules text, I'll post to this thread with post-playtesting observations later.

Dingle
2011-03-29, 01:46 PM
cool, looking foreward to it

Mark Hall
2011-03-29, 03:39 PM
I would probably go with "reduce the number of penalty dice by Celerity rating" rather than twice rating. Celerity is still hella useful, even at low levels, but not so useful you HAVE to have it.

Another thing to take a look at, IMO, is Presence. The power needs some kind of resistance roll built in, or you have Brujah dominating the game because they can spam Potence, Celerity and Presence.

Dingle
2011-04-02, 03:49 PM
Presence kind of has a resistance roll, in the form of "spend willpower to ignore"
I've mostly played sabbat, dark ages, and one shots, so I haven't seen it abused in elysium; what kinds of powerful things can you do with it?

how does it compare to other no resist powers like auspex?

if it were very obvious to elders, and frowned upon, would that make it more reasonable?

Jeebers
2011-04-04, 03:26 PM
I gotta say, your version of Celerity seems both unnecessarily complicated, and too weakened. This is coming from a guy who owns every Vampire (old school) book ever made, including the core books of the other lines so that I can do a decent facsimile when necessary for a different supernatural.

I've been going for the DA Vampire version of Celerity with a slight modification.

If you don't have the book, basically you have to spend blood equal to the number of extra actions you want to take in the beginning of the round (max is your Celerity rating), and this expenditure does not apply toward your turn limit. As usual, you can only do physical actions with Celerity. This means Celerity is incredibly expensive in terms of vitae.

I slightly weakened it further by requiring the wielder to roll Wits instead of Dexterity for Celerity actions. I thought it made sense given that one needs mental acuity to keep up with the raw speed of it, especially given that combat rounds are 3 seconds a pop.

This keeps the mechanics simple, and the combat fast.

bladesyz
2011-04-04, 03:43 PM
I don't think Celerity is overpowered at all. Celerity by itself is only good for running away. Celerity with Potence, on the other hand, is a whole other beast.

The physical disciplines in VtM follows a rock-paper-scissor relationship, in that:

Potence > Fortitude > Celerity > Potence

I've played a Celerity+gun twinked character, and had a hell of a time taking down a Ventrue Elder, even with the help of my pack, mainly due to his fortitude and my lack of a source of Agg.

Now, Potence + Celerity + Protean 2 is incredibly dangerous in combat, but you're still vulnerable to a high-caliber shot to the head. And considering that Celerity happens only on the next turn after you activate it, it provides no protection against surprise attacks (unlike Fortitude!).

Again, why would Celerity be considered overpowered compared to Obfuscate, Obtenebration, and Chimerstry?

TheCountAlucard
2011-04-04, 03:54 PM
Again, why would Celerity be considered overpowered compared to Obfuscate, Obtenebration, and Chimerstry?Because you're going more than once and they aren't. That is a massive benefit in almost any game you play.

bladesyz
2011-04-04, 04:11 PM
Because you're going more than once and they aren't. That is a massive benefit in almost any game you play.

So?

Obfuscate: you can see them but they can't see you.

Obtenebration: you can see them but they can't see you, plus you get to summon a dozen tentacles to ra--- fight for you.

Chimerstry: you can create illusions of anything you want. Anything.

Dominate: who's your daddy?

Auspex: your only hope of survival when facing Obfuscate

comicshorse
2011-04-04, 04:28 PM
And considering that Celerity happens only on the next turn after you activate it, it provides no protection against surprise attacks (unlike Fortitude!).



You sure about that ? I only have the Dark Ages book handy but it doesn't work that way in that and I can't remember any ST I've played with ever using that rule

I always thought Quietus was under-rated. Screw claws I'd much rather have my sword do aggravated damage.

Dingle
2011-04-04, 04:31 PM
it is a bit more complicated, bu that's to make it weaker but not too weak.

the Dark Ages version has already been mentioned, but The_Jackal has explained why it won't work for him.



My objection to the Dark Ages rule (1 blood per action) is that it wildly skews the discipline in favor of low-generation vampires, who, to be honest, don't need the help. Spending 5 blood to get 6 actions is a huge gamble at Gen 12, it's a LOT less so at Gen 7. That's the other reason I wanted to drop the blood-cost to activate, as it lessens the skew of the power toward low-generation vampires.

Because these actions all occur in the same turn, if you can afford the blood it's even more powerful than usual.

It also hugely increases the effect of how recently you've fed on combat ability; and the 15 minute adventuring day is not something many people will want to encourage in a vampire game.



celerity is also nice for parrying, and just killing stuff faster.


I'd aggree with the RPS relationship to a certain extent,

but there's also an in combat/out of combat discrepancy:
celerity's the best in combat, but useless outside of combat.
potence is very good in combat, and useful out of combat, but you could have used a jackhammer.
fortitude isn't quie as good as the other 2 in combat (not bad by any stretch), but it can save your unlife many times out of combat.

and soft counters:
vs 1 (elder or something):
celerity: can't touch this (parry) and still hit them, makes enemies trivial
Potence: guaranteed damage, nice
fortitude: hits could be big enough that you only live 1 turn longer

vs many (mortal street gang or something):
celerity: only 1.5x thier actions, the action economy isn't quite so screwed
potence: 1hko is fun
fortitude: I laugh at your guns knives doing no damage


I think the gun and the elder were the problems, not the disciplines,
you still won, remember

Combinations of physical disciplines is a big advantage as you can multiply the effectiveness.

In total, celerity is nearly balanced by it's disadvantages, but it comes out ahead in a combat heavy game because combat is all it's good for; and The_Jackal has a combat heavy game.


EDIT: @comicshorse Dark ages uses very different rules for celerity, which go in the opposite direction to what The_Jackal wants

The_Jackal
2011-04-04, 05:05 PM
Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I don't like Revised's or Dark Ages' take on Celerity. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the extra vitae cost for Celerity is highly punitive on high-generation users and not nearly as much of a constraint on elders.


And considering that Celerity happens only on the next turn after you activate it

Yeah, this is another permutation on Celerity aimed at taming it that I don't like. Holdover actions across turns, to me, are much more unwieldy than a little arithmetic. My rules also have the advantage (IMO) of unifying the treatment of multiple actions altogether. There's no longer one set of rules for Celerity users and another for everyone else.

As for the raw utility of having extra actions, there's no question that it's incredibly powerful. While it won't make you any tougher, each extra action is a direct multiplier to your damage output. There's no mechanical difference between being shot by one shotgun armed vampire with celerity 2 and being shot by three shotgun armed vampires with no celerity at all.

PS: Also, extra actions has a kind of metagame effect that shouldn't be overlooked. Simply put, when your character is acting twice as often as another player character, you're sort of mechanically able to monopolize the GM's attention. This puts non-celerity using characters at a distinct 'fun disadvantage' in so far as they get to spend more time waiting and less time acting than their celerity-using peers.

bladesyz
2011-04-04, 10:54 PM
Yeah, this is another permutation on Celerity aimed at taming it that I don't like. Holdover actions across turns, to me, are much more unwieldy than a little arithmetic. My rules also have the advantage (IMO) of unifying the treatment of multiple actions altogether. There's no longer one set of rules for Celerity users and another for everyone else.

As for the raw utility of having extra actions, there's no question that it's incredibly powerful. While it won't make you any tougher, each extra action is a direct multiplier to your damage output. There's no mechanical difference between being shot by one shotgun armed vampire with celerity 2 and being shot by three shotgun armed vampires with no celerity at all.

PS: Also, extra actions has a kind of metagame effect that shouldn't be overlooked. Simply put, when your character is acting twice as often as another player character, you're sort of mechanically able to monopolize the GM's attention. This puts non-celerity using characters at a distinct 'fun disadvantage' in so far as they get to spend more time waiting and less time acting than their celerity-using peers.

I'm not sure what you mean by "hold-over" actions. To me, it's pretty simple: it takes one turn for celerity to take effect, so you have to announce that you want to activate celerity one turn in advance.

Also, keep in mind that the kind of actions characters can do using celerity is limited. You cannot perform complex actions that require lots of concentration, and you can't use disciplines either. So it kind of cuts down on the time an ST has to spend on a celerity character.

Also, like I said, Fortitude > Celerity if Celerity is not supported by some other discipline, such as Potence or Feral Claws. Celerity is only overpowered in combat if the character also has Potence or a source of Agg, *AND* the opponent isn't geared toward surviving confrontation.

In fact, Obfuscate 4+ is so overpowered that anyone who doesn't have enough Auspex to pierce it automatically loses.

Obtenebration is ridiculously overpowered at low levels.

That's not even getting into the really "broken" disciplines like Thaumaturgy, Necromancy, and Chimerstry. Or, god forbid, things like Obeah and Temporis.

Dingle
2011-04-05, 05:01 AM
I like the idea of removing the weaknesses and decreasing the power of celerity to make it more like potence and fortitude.

Bringing it all together under a consistent action splitting system is also cool.



There's no mechanical difference between being shot by one shotgun armed vampire with celerity 2 and being shot by three shotgun armed vampires with no celerity at all.
yeah, but only for that round: there's the small problem that guns generally top out at 3 shots per round, celerity guy will have to reload soner, and there's only one guy to kill. It still hurts exactly as much though.

MickJay
2011-04-05, 06:09 AM
PS: Also, extra actions has a kind of metagame effect that shouldn't be overlooked. Simply put, when your character is acting twice as often as another player character, you're sort of mechanically able to monopolize the GM's attention. This puts non-celerity using characters at a distinct 'fun disadvantage' in so far as they get to spend more time waiting and less time acting than their celerity-using peers.

That does tend to be a problem. Friends have been playing a long running vampire game, where only one character did not have Celerity - while the highest score in group was 4. Guess who usually got to act once during a 30-minute+ (real time) combat.

Chimerstry is hideously powerful, especially in a PbP or online games. Other players might not realize for sessions on end that they're being somehow misled by the Ravnos (not to mention their characters).

The_Jackal
2011-04-05, 02:54 PM
Yah, there are no Ravnos in any oWoD campaign I run. Dumb clan, abusive discipline. For shifty-sneaky types the Settites and Malkavians fit the bill marvelously.

Dingle
2011-04-05, 03:18 PM
Ravnos are also uncommon in the games I play in.

Chimerstry is quite nice, but also very expensive.

How much illusion can you reasonably afford?
Know any cheap tricks?

Mark Hall
2011-04-05, 05:17 PM
Know any cheap tricks?

I want you to want me (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBQ9dm7zaQU) is really more a Presence thing than a Chimerstry thing...

:smallbiggrin:

The_Jackal
2011-04-05, 05:30 PM
Well played, sir. Well played.

Project_Mayhem
2011-04-07, 09:10 AM
Yeah, having played several Vampire games, I'd agree Celerity is overpowered as written, especially at higher power levels. As mentioned, sufficient celerity + potence/protean/quietus etc. means you do vast amounts of damage very quickly, while your opponent makes one attack.

As an example, I played an Assamite in a Dark ages game recently - I had 3 extra actions from celerity, 3 potence, and was doing aggravated damage from quietus. If you build a melee focused character, as I did, there's very little you can't destroy with that in one round.

Similarly, the first game I played in once or twice a week for a year, with no houserule on celerity, and the celerity focused characters dominated. Massively. The first fight we got in began as such: We win surprise - my action is activating my feral claws. The toreador blade artisan's actions are blurring and killing all enemies in the room. Fight over. I resheath my claws and back away from the gore spattered artist. Even with fortitude recieving a buff (it added automatic soak successes) the disipline seemed too powerful

As mentioned earlier, dark ages makes you pay for each action. This makes celerity less ridiculous, but still means you can murder everyone - you just have to then drain someone, which is less of a problem given that dark ages encourages you to play paths that have no issue with that.

After several instances of celerity fighters dominating, the ST for my recent dark ages game edited celerity so that the 1st, 3rd, and 5th dot only gave you non attack actions, and gave it an initiative bonus instead. This took the edge off, but it still meant your making 3 attacks for every one your opponent makes, and now you are probably parrying his attack too.

I think the conclusion of my little rant is I've seen two options really. Either you suck it up and accept that extra actions are really really good, and that if you allow core celerity it will become a discipline tax, or you nerf it down to requiem levels

bladesyz
2011-04-07, 09:23 AM
Yeah, having played several Vampire games, I'd agree Celerity is overpowered as written, especially at higher power levels. As mentioned, sufficient celerity + potence/protean/quietus etc. means you do vast amounts of damage very quickly, while your opponent makes one attack.

As an example, I played an Assamite in a Dark ages game recently - I had 3 extra actions from celerity, 3 potence, and was doing aggravated damage from quietus. If you build a melee focused character, as I did, there's very little you can't destroy with that in one round.

Similarly, the first game I played in once or twice a week for a year, with no houserule on celerity, and the celerity focused characters dominated. Massively. The first fight we got in began as such: We win surprise - my action is activating my feral claws. The toreador blade artisan's actions are blurring and killing all enemies in the room. Fight over. I resheath my claws and back away from the gore spattered artist. Even with fortitude recieving a buff (it added automatic soak successes) the disipline seemed too powerful


You just mentioned Celerity + Potence + Quietus, that's 3 disciplines, and your Assamite had 10 discipline points for that melee domination. Of course he's going to curb stomp anyone with only a few combat discipline points.

Pit a character with Celerity 5 (total 80 xp from scratch) against another character with with Potence 3 and Fortitude 3 (total 70 xp from scratch), assuming same gen, blood pool, and skills, and the Celerity char will likely lose. Pit that same char against a Nosferatu with Obfuscate 4 and Potence 2 (75 xp), and the Celerity guy is lunch. Not to mention Celerity costs blood (lots of blood for DA version), while the other disciplines mentioned don't.

*** Note that I'm NOT saying Celerity isn't powerful, it's just not OVERpowered, like some other Disciplines are.

TheCountAlucard
2011-04-07, 09:29 AM
Pit a character with Celerity 5 (total 80 xp from scratch) against another character with with Potence 3 and Fortitude 3 (total 70 xp from scratch), assuming same gen, blood pool, and skills, and the Celerity char will likely lose.Not if he plays it smart, he won't.

"With Celerity up, I'm faster than this guy? Okay, I will never let him close with me, then."

Project_Mayhem
2011-04-07, 09:33 AM
Yes, this was an experienced character. However he was able to take down combat characters of much higher xp and lower generation. I agree it would be less sexy without 4 Quietus, but the potence was icing on an already tasty cake.

Additionally, heres some factors you might have missed - one, if you de-obfuscate and try and smack me, I still get to roll to avoid surprise, and I'd taken the devotion that lets you retroactively spend blood when this happens. Also, obfuscate varies in effectiveness depending on the DM - arguably, walking towards someone and drawing your sword counts as drawing attention to yourself.

Second, in the celerity vs potence/fortitude fight - the best strategy would be for the celerity guy to attack 4-5 times, then run away. run back after the other guys turn and rinse and repeat.

edit:


Not if he plays it smart, he won't.

"With Celerity up, I'm faster than this guy? Okay, I will never let him close with me, then."

yeah this.

I agree that there are better disciplines than celerity - they are mostly either not combat focused, or unique to certain clans. Everyone can learn celerity; it is ubiquitous.

TheCountAlucard
2011-04-07, 09:48 AM
I agree that there are better disciplines than celerity - they are mostly either not combat focused, or unique to certain clans. Everyone can learn celerity; it is ubiquitous.Celerity isn't a discipline - it's an arms race. If you want to meaningfully contribute to a combat in which at least one person has dots in Celerity, you'd better have some yourself.

And ditto on Obfuscate's power being directly proportional to the ST's whim.

bladesyz
2011-04-07, 10:10 AM
Yes, this was an experienced character. However he was able to take down combat characters of much higher xp and lower generation. I agree it would be less sexy without 4 Quietus, but the potence was icing on an already tasty cake.

Additionally, heres some factors you might have missed - one, if you de-obfuscate and try and smack me, I still get to roll to avoid surprise, and I'd taken the devotion that lets you retroactively spend blood when this happens. Also, obfuscate varies in effectiveness depending on the DM - arguably, walking towards someone and drawing your sword counts as drawing attention to yourself.

Second, in the celerity vs potence/fortitude fight - the best strategy would be for the celerity guy to attack 4-5 times, then run away. run back after the other guys turn and rinse and repeat.


If I'm obfuscated, I can take the time to pump my Dex/Str to 10 before going for a grapple + bite. Being unaware of any danger, your dex/str is still going to be 4-5 at best. That gives me a HUGE advantage, and 80% of the time I will dust you.

Or, if it's a modern game, I can circle behind you, put my double-barreled shotgun with dragonsbreath round right behind your head, and pull the trigger. Unless you have Auspex 1, you're not going to get any rolls.

Finally, you can run away *only* if you have the space to do so. Also remember that Celerity actions happen AFTER NORMAL ACTIONS! That means when you close in on me and make a first attack, I get to retaliate BEFORE you get to make the rest of your attacks and run away. You can bet that I will make that attack a grapple.

TheCountAlucard
2011-04-07, 10:29 AM
Finally, you can run away *only* if you have the space to do so.What kind of moron vampire is going to have a fight in a place that doesn't play to his strengths? An ambush, maybe? Well, if it's "an ambush," of course he's screwed, it's an ambush, anyone's screwed! A good reason why so many vampires are paranoid.

Also remember that Celerity actions happen AFTER NORMAL ACTIONS! That means when you close in on me and make a first attack, I get to retaliate BEFORE you get to make the rest of your attacks and run away. You can bet that I will make that attack a grapple.Ah, yeah, in that case...

Action 1: You keep away from Potence Guy while he tries to close with you.

Actions 2-5: You are free to attack Potence Guy at your leisure, while he can do nothing.

Action 6: Back away again.

There we go, fixed.

Also, the other point I was going to bring up: yes, the other Disciplines are powerful as well. Damn powerful... but no other Discipline synergizes so well with as many other Disciplines as Celerity.

Mark Hall
2011-04-07, 10:48 AM
Celerity becomes particularly abusive when combined with even a little bit of Potence and a knife-fighter. Knife fighting lets you make two attacks per action already (per Player's Guide). I destroyed a Lupine in one round with that combo (and a convenient Thaumaturge to create and hand me a silver dagger).

1 point of Celerity meant 2 actions per round, meaning 4 attacks. 2 points of Potence meant 2 auto-success on damage per attack, plus whatever you can weasel in terms of Strength. Silver means no soak aggravated for Lupines. Combine it with a little luck, some willpower, and you've got a dead lupine.

From a 14th gen blood-trash anarch (who eventually had to leave for Boston because the Primogen of New York's Brujah started ranting about blood trash and anarchs... freakin' "We should retake the glory of Carthage" Brujah nutjobs. He suggested I "fix" my problem by diablerizing).

bladesyz
2011-04-07, 10:51 AM
What kind of moron vampire is going to have a fight in a place that doesn't play to his strengths? An ambush, maybe? Well, if it's "an ambush," of course he's screwed, it's an ambush, anyone's screwed! A good reason why so many vampires are paranoid.
Ah, yeah, in that case...

Okay yeah... like fights would never happen in crowded night clubs (where Celerity would be a Masquerade breaker to top it off), small apartments, hotel rooms, while being surrounded, etc. etc.



Action 1: You keep away from Potence Guy while he tries to close with you.

Actions 2-5: You are free to attack Potence Guy at your leisure, while he can do nothing.

Action 6: Back away again.

There we go, fixed.

LOL, so you think the only way Celerity Guy can beat Potence Guy is if Potence Guy is a complete moron? I think that settles the argument of whether Celerity is "overpowered" quite well.

bladesyz
2011-04-07, 10:56 AM
Celerity becomes particularly abusive when combined with even a little bit of Potence and a knife-fighter. Knife fighting lets you make two attacks per action already (per Player's Guide). I destroyed a Lupine in one round with that combo (and a convenient Thaumaturge to create and hand me a silver dagger).

1 point of Celerity meant 2 actions per round, meaning 4 attacks. 2 points of Potence meant 2 auto-success on damage per attack, plus whatever you can weasel in terms of Strength. Silver means no soak aggravated for Lupines. Combine it with a little luck, some willpower, and you've got a dead lupine.


Okay well, first of all, you had a silver dagger.

Second, what kind of "Lupine" were you fighting? The kind on the back of the VTM core book, or the kind in the WTA book? In either case, werewolves get the equivalent of Celerity as well, intrinsically. And if you used the WTA werewolves, they get nifty Gifts as well, like "Spirit of the Fray".

Oh, and can you quote the "2 knife attacks per round" rule? That sounds really broken. Remember that Celerity actions can't be split.

TheCountAlucard
2011-04-07, 10:57 AM
Okay yeah... like fights would never happen in crowded night clubs (where Celerity would be a Masquerade breaker to top it off)If a Kindred fight breaks out at a crowded night club, I'm pretty sure it's going to result in a Masquerade breaker, no matter what Disciplines come into play.

Potence guy is just as screwed if a fight occurs there, for one; I'm pretty sure people will notice that bullets are bouncing off his hide while he punches through a man's ribcage with his bare hands.


small apartments, hotel rooms, while being surrounded, etc. etc.Again, if your combat strategy is centered around moving really fast, and you're properly paranoid, you will not let these fights happen.


LOL, so you think the only way Celerity Guy can beat Potence Guy is if Potence Guy is a complete moron?No, but I certainly expect Potence Guy to only dust Celerity Guy if Celerity Guy is a complete moron.


I think that settles the argument of whether Celerity is "overpowered" quite well.This settles nothing. Obviously you're not going to budge from your opinion, and neither are we.

bladesyz
2011-04-07, 11:04 AM
If a Kindred fight breaks out at a crowded night club, I'm pretty sure it's going to result in a Masquerade breaker, no matter what Disciplines come into play.

Potence guy is just as screwed if a fight occurs there, for one; I'm pretty sure people will notice that bullets are bouncing off his hide while he punches through a man's ribcage with his bare hands.

Again, if your combat strategy is centered around moving really fast, and you're properly paranoid, you will not let these fights happen.

No, but I certainly expect Potence Guy to only dust Celerity Guy if Celerity Guy is a complete moron.

This settles nothing.

Except that you don't always get to choose your fights, and anyone who expects to always fight on his own terms is a fool.

Potence doesn't *have* to be a Masquerade breaker, while Celerity *always* is.

Finally, I already explained why your "hit-and-run" tactic doesn't work, and the only response you can come up with involves Potence Guy idiotically chasing after Celerity Guy like Wile E. Coyote after the Road Runner.

Oh, and I never said Potence Guy could easily dust Celerity Guy, just that he had an advantage. It was the Obfuscate Guy who I said could easily dust Celerity Guy.

TheCountAlucard
2011-04-07, 11:14 AM
Oh, and I never said Potence Guy could easily dust Celerity Guy, just that he had an advantage.I didn't intend to imply you'd said that.

Also, note that in all of your instances, you're pitting a vampire with two Disciplines against a vampire with one. I said Celerity was powerful; I didn't say it's worth two Disciplines.

Project_Mayhem
2011-04-07, 11:15 AM
Actually using 1 celerity isn't necessarily a breaker. Its only twice as fast a s a human. Admittedly the higher levels definately are.

And ... of course you don't get to choose your fights. However, a fight that you haven't set up, and is to your disadvantage, is an ambush, in which you are expected to badly anyway. even then, celerity guy can flee ridiculously fast anyway.

In any case, you can take precautions to avoid ambushes. If I know I suck in enclosed spaces ... I avoid enclosed spaces unless I have back up or an assurance of safety. If I am attacked there, I break off and flee, coming back in a more optimal situation.

With regards to your last point ... what does potence guy do then. Under most circumstances, Celerity guy *can* just dip in and out of reach. What does potence guy do then if not chase? His only real option is to get murdered, surrender, or try and escape.

comicshorse
2011-04-07, 11:21 AM
With regards to your last point ... what does potence guy do then. Under most circumstances, Celerity guy *can* just dip in and out of reach. What does potence guy do then if not chase? His only real option is to get murdered, surrender, or try and escape.

He stands there when Celerity guy approaches he grapples him. As has been pointed out Celerity happens AFTER normal actions. If Celerity guy approaches he gets grabbed, if he runs away he isn't doing anything apart from burning blood

Celerity is useful but by no menas broken I remember vividly a fight in Dark Ages where my Toreador leapt on a Ventrue in a blur of action and after a flurry of blows was left with a broken sword and very unimpressed and unscatched Ventrue ( Though we did run Fortitude was automatic successes against all damage apart from Fire and Sunlight in which case it provided extra dice to soak.)

Project_Mayhem
2011-04-07, 11:25 AM
Are you sure that works?

As I understand it it goes like this - Everyone gets one action in initiative order. On his turn Celerity guy runs out of reach. Potence guy takes an action.
Celerity guy now has 5 actions. He runs back, clouts Potence guy 4 times, and then runs away again. Rinse and repeat.

comicshorse
2011-04-07, 11:28 AM
Are you sure that works?

As I understand it it goes like this - Everyone gets one action in initiative order. On his turn Celerity guy runs out of reach. Potence guy takes an action.
Celerity guy now has 5 actions. He runs back, clouts Potence guy 4 times, and then runs away again. Rinse and repeat.

Not quite. Assuming Celerity guy goes first ( a big assumption) he runs away. Potence guy decides to wait. Celerity guy can now do nothing ( in which case he's wasted blood) or charge in in which case he gets attacked and will also have wasted two actions ( three if he plans to runs way again at the end of the round)

bladesyz
2011-04-07, 11:33 AM
And ... of course you don't get to choose your fights. However, a fight that you haven't set up, and is to your disadvantage, is an ambush, in which you are expected to badly anyway. even then, celerity guy can flee ridiculously fast anyway.


That is very true, which is why I said at the very beginning that Celerity, unsupported by other disciplines, is more useful for running away than fighting.



Also, note that in all of your instances, you're pitting a vampire with two Disciplines against a vampire with one. I said Celerity was powerful; I didn't say it's worth two Disciplines.

It was Celerity 5 vs Potence 3 + Fortitude 3. Celerity 5 guy actually required more XP than the other guy. That's how disciplines work, higher level disciplines are supposed to be more powerful, except the physical disciplines. That's why Celerity isn't really overpowered.


As I understand it it goes like this - Everyone gets one action in initiative order. On his turn Celerity guy runs out of reach. Potence guy takes an action.
Celerity guy now has 5 actions. He runs back, clouts Potence guy 4 times, and then runs away again. Rinse and repeat.

Comicshorse explained it better.

Also, keep in mind that you need to keep out of range of a 3-second running tackle. That implies a pretty wide open area.

Mark Hall
2011-04-07, 11:37 AM
He stands there when Celerity guy approaches he grapples him. As has been pointed out Celerity happens AFTER normal actions. If Celerity guy approaches he gets grabbed, if he runs away he isn't doing anything apart from burning blood

Another option: Throw things. With potence, you've got some range. Nothin' says lovin' like an axe in the head.


Okay well, first of all, you had a silver dagger.

It was a very nice gift. One of the few things he took with him to Boston.


Second, what kind of "Lupine" were you fighting? The kind on the back of the VTM core book, or the kind in the WTA book? In either case, werewolves get the equivalent of Celerity as well, intrinsically. And if you used the WTA werewolves, they get nifty Gifts as well, like "Spirit of the Fray".

Not a clue. I wasn't on that side of the screen.


Oh, and can you quote the "2 knife attacks per round" rule? That sounds really broken. Remember that Celerity actions can't be split.

Not exactly; it was in the Player's Guide, under the description of knives or daggers. Many of the weapons in there had additional effects associated with them. I'm at work, though, and can't reference my books.

bladesyz
2011-04-07, 11:50 AM
Celerity certainly is a *force multiplier* though. Potence 3 + Celerity 3, or Celerity 3 + Protean 2 is a devastatingly powerful combat option.

Still, Dominate, Dread Gaze, Lure of Flames, Movement of Mind, can all screw a Brujah pretty good.

comicshorse
2011-04-07, 11:58 AM
Obfuscate was the discipline that always caused problems in our games. City Gangrel were a nightmare. ( Gangrel bloodline that gets Protean, Celerity and Obfuscate)

bladesyz
2011-04-07, 01:43 PM
The beauty of Vampire is that combat ability doesn't mean much.

I had a Ventrue character who spent 90% of fights either hiding, or hiding after being maimed/crippled and low on blood.

Nevertheless, he was commonly acknowledged as the most powerful PC in the coterie.

Mark Hall
2011-04-07, 03:11 PM
The beauty of Vampire is that combat ability doesn't mean much.

"If violence wasn't your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it." -Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries

Interesting bit about vampires... they're afraid to die. They surround themselves with ways to avoid dying... some may have chosen unlife as a way to avoid death. Someone who rapidly and consistently resorts to more violence than his opponents are able to withstand can have a LOT of effectiveness in a society like that.

bladesyz
2011-04-07, 03:53 PM
"If violence wasn't your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it." -Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries

Interesting bit about vampires... they're afraid to die. They surround themselves with ways to avoid dying... some may have chosen unlife as a way to avoid death. Someone who rapidly and consistently resorts to more violence than his opponents are able to withstand can have a LOT of effectiveness in a society like that.

You know the old adage: he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword.

In our games, combat characters tended to die often. Why? Because there are so many ways of killing aside from Celerity/Potence/Feral Claws.

- A Brujah with Potence 3, Celerity 3 got abducted by Sabbat henchmen during the day. He later showed up "brainwashed".

- One Assamite went into Torpor under a hail of gun fire. Celerity is nice and all, but if the player makes a tactical mistake, it won't help him against several automatic weapons all going full-auto on him.

- Another Assamite went into Torpor after being swarmed by a horde of ghouled rats. My Ventrue, standing right beside him, came out with only a few scratches thanks to Fortitude.

- A Tremere PC died heroically in a fight with the Tremere Primogen, though the Primogen was gravely wounded.

- The same Tremere PC came back as a Stone Gargoyle (animated gargoyle statue made of marble, with Visceratika discipline, pretty much a combat monster). Died in a huge explosion in a fight against something I forget. I also lost a Gangrel "urban commando" character in the same explosion, though he fell into Torpor instead of Final Death thanks to his Fortitude.

- The Tremere/Gargoyle player made a Salubri and I made an Assamite. We both died in a fight with the Sabbat, when the Salubri used Neutral Guard (thus opening his third eye and revealing that he's a Salubri). We kicked the crap out of the Sabbat, but the Tremere Primogen who was watching all this from the shadows killed us with Lure of Flames 5.

- A Werewolf character was killed when he got sneak-attacked by a Sabbat Nosferatu

The most successful combat character was a Nosferatu with maxed Obfuscate, some Animalism and some Potence. He survived all the games, though at times he felt more like an antagonist than a PC. :p

The_Jackal
2011-04-07, 09:40 PM
Pit a character with Celerity 5 (total 80 xp from scratch) against another character with with Potence 3 and Fortitude 3 (total 70 xp from scratch), assuming same gen, blood pool, and skills, and the Celerity char will likely lose. Pit that same char against a Nosferatu with Obfuscate 4 and Potence 2 (75 xp), and the Celerity guy is lunch. Not to mention Celerity costs blood (lots of blood for DA version), while the other disciplines mentioned don't.

Your example is, quite frankly, terrible. Sure, celerity 5 with no supporting disciplines, statistics or equipment is going to get rolled by someone with a more well-rounded build, and the escalating nature of experience costs make going long on a discipline less efficient than going shallow.

Anyone can make a vampire that's not effective with 5 dots in a discipline. Grab Dominate 5 with a charisma and manipulation of 1. Behold, you're useless.

What makes Celerity the ultimate X-factor so powerful is that it literally makes EVERYTHING you in combat do better. It's a force-multiplier. Potence just helps melee and lifting heavy stuff easier, and fortitude makes you tougher, but celerity actions can be spent on dodging, running, attacking, or a myriad of other actions that a resourceful player can use to leverage toward victory.

Look, I like celerity. I think it's one of the crucial pieces of VtM that really makes it stand out from other games. I don't want to turn it into the weak-water version that VtR did, just some run speed and defenses. But it does need a nerf, and not in a way that cripples 13th gen vampires while barely inconveniencing 7th gen vamps. That's why I'm trying out this house rule, and why I'm requesting feedback here on the Giant's forums. Because it's a cool mechanic that I think can really be balanced if you pin its ears back a bit, rather than just chop its head off.

The_Jackal
2011-04-07, 09:46 PM
The beauty of Vampire is that combat ability doesn't mean much.

I had a Ventrue character who spent 90% of fights either hiding, or hiding after being maimed/crippled and low on blood.

Nevertheless, he was commonly acknowledged as the most powerful PC in the coterie.

That's says much more about your Storyteller and Coterie than it does about the game mechanics, to be honest.

bladesyz
2011-04-08, 12:09 AM
Your example is, quite frankly, terrible. Sure, celerity 5 with no supporting disciplines, statistics or equipment is going to get rolled by someone with a more well-rounded build, and the escalating nature of experience costs make going long on a discipline less efficient than going shallow.

Anyone can make a vampire that's not effective with 5 dots in a discipline. Grab Dominate 5 with a charisma and manipulation of 1. Behold, you're useless.

What makes Celerity the ultimate X-factor so powerful is that it literally makes EVERYTHING you in combat do better. It's a force-multiplier. Potence just helps melee and lifting heavy stuff easier, and fortitude makes you tougher, but celerity actions can be spent on dodging, running, attacking, or a myriad of other actions that a resourceful player can use to leverage toward victory.


Gee, where did I say the Celerity 5 guy has Dex 1 and 0 melee? The whole point of the example was to illustrate that Celerity is not overpowered.

I mentioned that Celerity is a great force multiplier, but it isn't the only one. It's only crazy powerful when you only think about how many attacks you get per turn.

Dominate 3 + Presence 3: All you need to get all the resources and influence you want. You can get a corporate owner to sign his company over to you, and then implant a false memory of why he did so. You can get any mortal, or even young vampires, to fall desperately in love with you. You can even stop most hostile vampires in their tracks just by looking at them.

Obfuscate + Dementation: You can drive a group of enemies insane and have them kill each other, much like what Xykon did to the Sapphire Guard.




That's says much more about your Storyteller and Coterie than it does about the game mechanics, to be honest.

While that's true of any RP group stories, my purpose was to illustrate how Celerity is far from being the end all of combat encounters. There are so many other ways of defeating your enemies than just making a lot of Dex + Melee rolls.



Look, I like celerity. I think it's one of the crucial pieces of VtM that really makes it stand out from other games. I don't want to turn it into the weak-water version that VtR did, just some run speed and defenses. But it does need a nerf, and not in a way that cripples 13th gen vampires while barely inconveniencing 7th gen vamps. That's why I'm trying out this house rule, and why I'm requesting feedback here on the Giant's forums. Because it's a cool mechanic that I think can really be balanced if you pin its ears back a bit, rather than just chop its head off.


To be honest, I think you might not be fully appreciating Celerity's limitations. As mentioned before:

1- Celerity takes effect only on the next turn
2- Celerity actions occur after normal actions
3- Celerity actions cannot be split

Furthermore,

4- Celerity offers no bonus to attack, defense, or initiative, so a few mortals with assault rifles going full auto on a Celerity vamp will very likely drop him into torpor
5- Celerity means nothing if you can't see your enemy
6- Celerity offers no protection against Dominate, Dread Gaze, Majesty, Lure of Flames, Obeah 3, Temporis 2
7- Celerity becomes useless if you get grappled
8- Celerity uses blood, which could be used instead to pump physical stats or heal wounds. Without access to Agg (which requires either Protean 2 or Quietus 4, both clan-specific disciplines), it is very difficult to hurt a high soak opponent, even with Potence.

Therefore, if your group often find Celerity to be "too powerful", I would suggest that instead of changing the rules to "nerf" Celerity, take a look at your group's tactics and see what other ways you can approach combat.

TheCountAlucard
2011-04-08, 12:45 AM
Without access to Agg (which requires either Protean 2 or Quietus 4, both clan-specific disciplines), it is very difficult to hurt a high soak opponent, even with Potence.Actually, you can get aggravated damage from Potence and Celerity, thanks to the Combo Disciplines.

Or from equipment. Dragon's Breath rounds, an enchanted weapon... or just a stick that happens to be on fire.

The_Jackal
2011-04-08, 01:59 AM
To be honest, I think you might not be fully appreciating Celerity's limitations. As mentioned before:

1- Celerity takes effect only on the next turn
2- Celerity actions occur after normal actions
3- Celerity actions cannot be split

{Scrubbed} Limitation one is just irritating. If the celerity users have the surprise, they'll simply activate celerity before combat starts. If not, celerity users on both sides will simply take defensive actions on round one to wait until their huge combat advantage kicks in, at which beatdowns ensue. And if you're fighting someone with obfuscate 2/potence 4, you haven't staged a battle at all. Dice aren't rolled, the vampire just wakes up from torpor a week or two later. Finally, describing celerity's inability to split their actions further as a 'limitation' is a JOKE. Without that rule, celerity would go from being merely the premier combat discipline to being insanely overpowered.


4- Celerity offers no bonus to attack, defense, or initiative, so a few mortals with assault rifles going full auto on a Celerity vamp will very likely drop him into torpor
5- Celerity means nothing if you can't see your enemy
6- Celerity offers no protection against Dominate, Dread Gaze, Majesty, Lure of Flames, Obeah 3, Temporis 2
7- Celerity becomes useless if you get grappled
8- Celerity uses blood, which could be used instead to pump physical stats or heal wounds. Without access to Agg (which requires either Protean 2 or Quietus 4, both clan-specific disciplines), it is very difficult to hurt a high soak opponent, even with Potence.

None of these things make Celerity any weaker or less flexible, and they're basically points that are entirely orthogonal to my discussion. Celerity also won't call your Mother on her birthday, file your taxes or show you the meaning of true love either. That doesn't mean it's not hands-down the best combat discipline in the game, and not by nose either.

I'm done entertaining arguments that 'Celerity is okay as is'. If think that, don't change it. Enjoy yourself and play with the rules as written. But I don't think it's okay as is, and for myself and anyone else who agrees with me, I'm trying to come up with an alternate rule that's more balanced.

bladesyz
2011-04-08, 09:10 AM
Actually, you can get aggravated damage from Potence and Celerity, thanks to the Combo Disciplines.

Or from equipment. Dragon's Breath rounds, an enchanted weapon... or just a stick that happens to be on fire.

You mean Burning Wrath? That costs 1 blood per turn to use? You'd better be 9th gen or lower if you want to use Celerity with it. It's also not part of Revised core, IIRC.

Dragon's Breath doesn't need Celerity to be effective.

Enchanted weapons are extremely rare and most likely come with curses. This isn't D&D.

A stick on fire will only do 1 Agg at best, with difficulty 4 to soak for a vamp with fortitude. More likely, it will just do nothing and get smothered by the vampire's clothing.



{Scrub the post, scrub the quote} Limitation one is just irritating. If the celerity users have the surprise, they'll simply activate celerity before combat starts. If not, celerity users on both sides will simply take defensive actions on round one to wait until their huge combat advantage kicks in, at which beatdowns ensue. And if you're fighting someone with obfuscate 2/potence 4, you haven't staged a battle at all. Dice aren't rolled, the vampire just wakes up from torpor a week or two later. Finally, describing celerity's inability to split their actions further as a 'limitation' is a JOKE. Without that rule, celerity would go from being merely the premier combat discipline to being insanely overpowered.


I find it funny how you complain that Celerity is overpowered, yet you don't want to play by Celerity's inherent limitations.

Well, to each their own, I guess.

However, it seems to me that the original premise of why you want to nerf Celerity is because everyone in your group "has" to take it. Well, if you're playing the kind of game where "it's only a battle when you roll dice", then you really only have 3 disciplines to play with. And since everyone who takes Celerity needs Potence to be useful, isn't it more logical to just make Fortitude more powerful?



None of these things make Celerity any weaker or less flexible, and they're basically points that are entirely orthogonal to my discussion. Celerity also won't call your Mother on her birthday, file your taxes or show you the meaning of true love either. That doesn't mean it's not hands-down the best combat discipline in the game, and not by nose either.


Huh, so shooting guns, grappling, magically setting your opponent on fire are all examples of non-combat activities?

The_Jackal
2011-04-08, 12:43 PM
{Scrubbed}


Well, if you're playing the kind of game where "it's only a battle when you roll dice", then you really only have 3 disciplines to play with.

You're missing my point entirely there. Sure, you can certainly scenarios where your PCs grab someone by the scruff and pound them into cheese-flavoured dog food, but that sort of encounter isn't really a battle, and doing that kind of stuff to your players also isn't really a fight, it's simply a storytold beating.


Huh, so shooting guns, grappling, magically setting your opponent on fire are all examples of non-combat activities?

Yeah, because you can't do any of those things in concert with Celerity to inflict even more damage. Oh, wait, you can.

{Scrubbed}

bladesyz
2011-04-08, 01:16 PM
{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

You're missing my point entirely there. Sure, you can certainly scenarios where your PCs grab someone by the scruff and pound them into cheese-flavoured dog food, but that sort of encounter isn't really a battle, and doing that kind of stuff to your players also isn't really a fight, it's simply a storytold beating.

Yeah, because you can't do any of those things in concert with Celerity to inflict even more damage. Oh, wait, you can.

{Scrubbed}


{Scrubbed}

Apparently, you have a very CRPG-esque view of combat in your games, and that's all fine and dandy if it works for your group. But when you make a post on a public forum inviting people to comment on your house rule, you shouldn't expect people to automatically take your view on how to run games.

All I have done is to point out that there is no need to nerf Celerity because there are a myriad of other ways to win fights without needing to resort to Celerity. Somehow you chose to take that personally and react with hostility, something I find rather incomprehensible.

And no, you CAN'T strafe machine guns faster or use Thaumaturgy more quickly using Celerity. Seriously, read the rules man! As for grappling, that was proposed as a COUNTER to a Celerity Fighter.

As for your house rule, what you're essentially doing is giving EVERYONE Celerity, except people who actually put points into the discipline gets dice pool bonuses. You'll still have the exact same dynamic and play style as before, except rolling different numbers of dice. You're not even going to discourage people from taking Celerity because the dice pool bonus it provides is much better than what Potence and Fortitude gives.

The_Jackal
2011-04-08, 01:57 PM
Pardon me eternally for forgetting that there's a 'strafe' maneuver in the optional maneuvers. Nevermind that it's a complete crap maneuver, trading a +2 rise in difficulty for 10 extra dice, only half of which can affect a single target. As for thaumaturgy, while you can't use it more than once per turn, you CAN burn one guy with your primary action and still blaze away with a gun on your extra actions. And grappling a celerity armed character doesn't necessarily prevent them from clawing your face off, and laying hold of them isn't a sure thing if they're faster than you. But this is all moot.


All I have done is to point out that there is no need to nerf Celerity

Yes, and I disagree with you. That's why I'm asking you nicely to stop, because this conversation is going nowhere and you're not convincing me, and I'm obviously not going to convince you. {Scrubbed}


As for your house rule, what you're essentially doing is giving EVERYONE Celerity, except people who actually put points into the discipline gets dice pool bonuses. You'll still have the exact same dynamic and play style as before, except rolling different numbers of dice. You're not even going to discourage people from taking Celerity because the dice pool bonus it provides is much better than what Potence and Fortitude gives.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say that the rule effectively gives everyone the ability to play like a celerity-enabled toon and at the same time say that it won't keep celerity from being attractive. All my rule does is:

1) discard the cumbersome and ineffective constraints on celerity (blood cost, activation delay)
2) Narrows the gap in effective dice/action gain between celerity users and non-celerity users.

{Scrubbed}

bladesyz
2011-04-08, 02:44 PM
Yes, and I disagree with you. That's why I'm asking you nicely to stop, because this conversation is going nowhere and you're not convincing me, and I'm obviously not going to convince you. {Scrubbed}

You can't have it both ways. You can't say that the rule effectively gives everyone the ability to play like a celerity-enabled toon and at the same time say that it won't keep celerity from being attractive. All my rule does is:

1) discard the cumbersome and ineffective constraints on celerity (blood cost, activation delay)
2) Narrows the gap in effective dice/action gain between celerity users and non-celerity users.

{Scrubbed}


{Scrubbed}

The_Jackal
2011-04-08, 03:44 PM
{Scrubbed}

Deadmeat.GW
2012-08-17, 07:49 AM
[QUOTE=bladesyz;10730620]
To be honest, I think you might not be fully appreciating Celerity's limitations. As mentioned before:

1- Celerity takes effect only on the next turn
2- Celerity actions occur after normal actions
3- Celerity actions cannot be split

QUOTE]

I am afraid a HOUSE rule does not make a actual rule.

Check out Celerity and the Action sequence in the different rulebooks plus the rules on spending blood...

1- Celerity takes effect only on the next turn

However how many people 'remember' this little snippet in VtM 1998 printing?
Using the least effective Celerity rules as in the ones from VtDA see page 146 for the rules...
It sais and I quote:
'For instance, if a vampire has a celerity of 4 and wishes to take five actions in a single turn, he needs to spend four blood points.'
In a turn does not translate in any way as in NEXT turn.

And conveniently this is the rule most players will quote

2- Celerity actions occur after normal actions

See page 186 in VtDA for action rules...
It does not say this anywhere and again most players I have seen incidently use this rule and not the VtM rules from 1998.
Actions take place on initiative order but there is a little gem that is very, very nice here...

'While a character may delay his action, he must perform it before the rest of the characters move on to their next action, or it is lost. However, a character can always use dice to dodge, as long as he has dice left in his pool.'

Yet again used by many Celerity users instead of the 1998 VtM rules...

3- Celerity actions cannot be split

This is about the only one of your three Big Rules that is in all of the books as correct...

And yes, Celerity is not overpowered when you follow the actual rules unless your ST uses the VtDa version.

The Dark Ages rules are the ones people remember as overpowered...but incidently they are still claiming the 1 blood point per activation rule from VtM, strange not :smallsmile:?


Finally, you can run away *only* if you have the space to do so. Also remember that Celerity actions happen AFTER NORMAL ACTIONS! That means when you close in on me and make a first attack, I get to retaliate BEFORE you get to make the rest of your attacks and run away. You can bet that I will make that attack a grapple.

The spoilered bit however runs into one little problem...
Defensive actions happen out of turn sequence.
VtM page 208 has a combat summary and you will see what I mean.

A character can abort to a defensive action (block, dodge, parry) at ANY time BEFORE her action is performed, as long as you make a succesfull willpower roll (or a willpower point is spent).


One of the people I played with simply used his Celerity actions for his defensive actions as this would be using them before the declared action was going to be performed.
And if he declared those celerity actions as his defensive actions he did not even have to use the abort rule and make a willpower that might potentially botch...

Pilo
2012-08-17, 10:55 AM
People here seems to forget that there are other disciplines are much more useful in combat situation:

Thaumaturgy:
Blood 3: Skyrockets your generation, blood pool extends, max carac and more blood points spend per round: Good damage absorbtion, lots of dexterity, fast healing ...
Movement of the mind 3: lift up your foe, he cannot do anything if he used hand to hand, if ranged, you are screwed
Lure of flame 1: Set something on fire: rötschreck everyone.

Domination 1: "Leave and never come back!", subject of generation limit, use Blood thaumaturgy 3 to override it if possible.

Presence 2: Your foe run away
Presence 3: Your foe does not want to hurt you anymore
Presence 5: No one want to hurt you anymore, everyone follow your orders.

Dementation 4: Rötschreck

Serpentis 1: Eye of the serpent. Do not move.

Chemistry: Fire, fire everywhere!!! Rötschreck

So regarding the lots of save or die/lose power, I do not think that celerity is overpowered.

Furthermore, one action is enough to aim for the heart with a wood stick and prevent any vampire from doing anything.

The_Jackal
2012-08-17, 02:55 PM
Wow, you guys are really making me regret linking this thread again. Kindly don't take this as an opportunity to discuss whether or not celerity is balanced as is.

Pilo
2012-08-17, 05:53 PM
First: Sorry.

Second: Your houserule seems complicated. Too much maths in it.
I offer you this one: When a character use celerity to get N extra actions (N between 0 and celerity rating), each extra action only have a penality of N dices and not the original one, which use the standard rules for multiple actions, without considering those from celerity.

Otherwise you may try to use the Celerity version from 20th Aniversary Edition, it may be more balanced.
You may also use the new rule for regular multiple actions:
Exemple: You want to do 3 actions punch a guy, throw a grenade and use Command.
You have 7 dices in Dex+Brawl
You have 6 dices in Dex+Athletics
You have 9 dices in Manipulation+Intimidation

You take the lower dices pool: here 6
You divide your dices between each actions:
Ex: 2 dices in punch, 3 in throwing the grenade and 1 in command

Anyway, have fun!