How many dragons could a dragonslayer slay, if...

[Frozen_Feet]

We all know how in d20 D&D, non-magical options suck in comparison to magic. Old news.

But what seems less explored to me is... what can non-magical things actually do? Against level appropriate foes, yes, Fighters and their lot fall behind, but in relation to their past selves, they still improve. In his own right, a high-level Fighter should be pretty awesome nonetheless.

This gave rise to the following question: dragons are the other namesake of the system. What is the highest CR dragon a lone, ECL 20 Fighter, can slay, relying only on non-magical equipment?

To clarify rules of this challenge a bit:

1) No form of magical aid is allowed. Psionics, Incarnum etc. count as magic. No magic items, no buffs from a friendly caster, no supernatural or spell-like abilities from race, feats or class. Extraordinary abilities, however, are fair game.

2) The character is a straigt-classed fighter. Race can't be anything magical in nature - outsiders, undead, fey and the like are thus banned. No flaws or traits. Use Elite Array for stats, arranged as seen fit.

3) All non-magical and non-supernatural feats from all sourcebooks are fair game, as are all non-magical pieces of equipment. The fighter has his full WBL to use. He can take as much to the fight as he can drag along with himself.

4) The fighter must be alone, with the expection of a single, non-magical animal for a mount if wanted.

5) Assume intelligent opposition. That is, the dragon will try to use all its abilities to best extent it can, in accordance to its Int and Wis. However, the dragon is alone as well.

The goal is to create as optimized Fighter as possible in accordance to the above guidelines, and see how much ugly lizard tail it can kick.

So, which dragon should we start from? :smallbiggrin:

[hivedragon]

Can I use the weapons from this page?
http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/modern/smack/weapons.html

[Frozen_Feet]

As compelling as the idea is, let's leave d20 Modern material aside this time. We can make another thread for the Great White Hunter using rifles to hunt down the draconic menace. XD

So no. Let's stick to D&D for now.

[yugi24862]

Well, he'd have to be raptorien or whatever the bird-man from RotW is called, otherwise no flight means killed by breath attacks.

[Frozen_Feet]

I'm pretty sure there are some landbound dragons. Even barring that, there's still archery, though I'm not expecting that to do all that much.

But anyways, what is the first opponent? Dragons run the whole spectrum CR-wise. I'm sure a non-magical archer could take down a couple of hatchlings.

[Yora]

The weakest ones would be whites, the strongest gold.

[MageofMystra]

Landbound dragons? Probably, but shouldn't our theoretical dragonslayer be gunning at the whole spectrum (no pun intended)?

But yeah, we'd need Raptoran or some other non-magical flight. Archery is less viable at generally Young Adult (I think that's when DR kicks in), then suddenly vanishes when they get more than 4 caster levels (Protection from Arrows.)

EDIT: Wait, how fast can Raptorans fly? I get the distinct feeling the dragon can still move a lot faster than them, which is... :smallsigh:

[hivedragon]

how about this?
http://www.leonardoda-vinci.org/Giant-Crossbow.jpg

[yugi24862]

Raptorans fly at 40ft (average) and ratoran fighters can take ACF's too fly with a medium load and get a 10ft racial bonus to flight speed. if they charge with a mount,a lance, and the spirited charge feat they get 4x damage, so thats a good way to deal damage.

[Frozen_Feet]

Landbound dragons? Probably, but shouldn't our theoretical dragonslayer be gunning at the whole spectrum (no pun intended)?
Of course, of course. But we could start with highest-CR landbound dragon.

But Archery seems like a solid option up to at least Young adult. Now to make a build...

EDIT: Charging seems like another good option, esp. against landbound targets. Any non-magical flying mounts come to mind?

[GeekGirl]

how about this?

Horrors of battle have rules for ballistas, I would think that makes them fair game.

[Hazzardevil]

Let's just presume we're using raptorans untill we find something else that flys, also, thats the rule on LA?

[Zaydos]

Of course, of course. But we could start with highest-CR landbound dragon.

But Archery seems like a solid option up to at least Young adult. Now to make a build...

EDIT: Charging seems like another good option, esp. against landbound targets. Any non-magical flying mounts come to mind?

Dire bats? Not sure how much one would cost, but it's non-magical and can be used as a mount.

[Frozen_Feet]

Dire bats? Not sure how much one would cost, but it's non-magical and can be used as a mount.

Remember, ECL 20 Fighter with full WBL. With no expensive magic items to spend it on, I'm fairly sure most things that can be bought fall within that allowance. :smallwink:

[MageofMystra]

Dire bats? Not sure how much one would cost, but it's non-magical and can be used as a mount.

I don't think a Dire Bat would work. Unless I'm horribly misunderstanding something, those fly at 40 ft., while the slow flying dragons fly at a minimum of 100 ft. The dragon's actions'd get a bit wonky, but honestly, that's not really a comfort.

Out in the open, without some serious opti-fu which I'm not apt to provide, I don't think we're going to be killing past Young Adult.

Now, with some serious opti-fu or silliness... is it possible to do something like have a small Raptoran (templated somehow, I don't know) riding a medium one, riding a large one or something? That'd probably give us the distance for a nice charge.

[Thurbane]

Does it have to be a lone fighter? The system assumes a party of 4 facing one equal CR monster or ECL encounter.

How about 4 mundane characters against one dragon?

[Frozen_Feet]

I'm looking to answer specifically what a single Fighter could do. Effectively, we're trying to determine what CR a lonesome ECL 20 fighter is. (Forgetting, of course, for a moment that dragons tend to be under CR'd.)

[TroubleBrewing]

So, fighter, barbarian, rogue (no UMD, obv), and ranger?

[Alleran]

Remember, ECL 20 Fighter with full WBL. With no expensive magic items to spend it on, I'm fairly sure most things that can be bought fall within that allowance. :smallwink:
You can't have magic items, but can you get grafts?

[Chuckthedwarf]

I'm pretty sure that in the majority of fantasy or mythology, a good challenge is enough to get the dragon to fight you without simply burning you from out of reach. I mean, that's practically a trope - hero calls out a big bad monster to one on one combat, big bad monster, no matter how intelligent, agrees even though he could simply have the hero killed at that moment...

Although on the other hand, pretty much every myth or fantasy story written about a hero or small group of heroes facing a big bad dragon has some magical artifact of great power or help from some wizard.

Gee, I guess the non-magical archetypes are ****ed either way. I mean, most heroes are only heroes because some deity is looking after them and/or they have a magical artifact of sorts. Or they aren't entirely human in the first place.

Achilles was part-god and had enchanted armor. And magic skin from being dipped in some magic well, if I remember it right.

Hercules was also part-god.

Arthur had a magic sword. And some other magick might have been involved, I don't know all the versions.

Beowulf was just badass, I guess...

TL:DR. Pretty much any iconic hero, however non-magical appearing, tend to win BECAUSE they were helped by various supernatural creatures or means. Deities, artifacts, magics, whatever. Even destiny is pretty supernatural.

[Alleran]

Achilles was part-god and had enchanted armor. And magic skin from being dipped in some magic well, if I remember it right.
According to Ovid's adaption of the original mythology, yes. Originally, as I recall, Achilles was just really, really badass. It was the Romans who added in the dipped-in-Styx thing.


Arthur had a magic sword. And some other magick might have been involved, I don't know all the versions.
A magic sword (Excalibur) and scabbard. The scabbard was the best part, since they wouldn't shed blood if wounded in battle while they held it, IIRC. Having Myrddin/Merlin helping him didn't hurt either.

[Chuckthedwarf]

Of course, if you ignore all those depressing thoughts, a fighter would probably be at least somewhat intelligent to fight a dragon.
Sheer muscle won't do it, he has to make a trap.

Why fight a dragon in it's own realm - air - when you can't fly?
Find a way to trap it in some cave, or perhaps sneak into it's lair while it sleeps.

A hero has to be full of guile and inventiveness if he wants to defeat a powerful enemy without any help...

So, yeah, the only way I can think of involves pissing off the dragon, getting it to follow you in some cave where it gets stuck/(triggers traps which you can't make as a fighter anyways) and then charge and slice its head off. Do something questionable like hiding behind a waterfall to avoid the fiery breath by fighting close enough to it and readying an action when you think it's going to breathe at you.

[Halae]

I have an idea. It'll require the Oriental Adventures Samurai.

However, this begs the question - Are Martial Adepts considered magical for the purposes of this? What about Factotums? And are we allowed to choose a class other than fighter?

[Frozen_Feet]

You can't have magic items, but can you get grafts?
Don't remember rules for grafts, but if their creation involves something supernatural, or they grant supernatural or spell-like abilities, then no, you can't have them.


TL:DR. Pretty much any iconic hero, however non-magical appearing, tend to win BECAUSE they were helped by various supernatural creatures or means. Deities, artifacts, magics, whatever. Even destiny is pretty supernatural.
Yes, yes, all fine and dandy, but also not relevant to the exercise at hand at all.


I have an idea. It'll require the Oriental Adventures Samurai.

However, this begs the question - Are Martial Adepts considered magical for the purposes of this? What about Factotums? And are we allowed to choose a class other than fighter?

Good grief people, don't you read the first post at all?

Straight classed fighter. Extraordinary abilities are allowed, which opens up most maneuvers.

[Thurbane]

So you want to know how tough a dragon a single, straight Fighter 20, with no magical gear, can defeat? Answer: not very. The game makes all kind of assumptions about WBL, gear and operating in a party where the 4 basic roles are covered. You might as well ask how tough a dragon a Commoner 1 can defeat...

Heck, with your stipulations, he can't even (ab)use Leadership or Diplomacy to get some (non-magical) help.

So, the challenge is, basically, how much can you twink out a fighter using non-magical gear, feats and skills. And not just any feats or skills, those that are inherently non-magical in nature.

I get the thought exercise you are driving at, but with the amount of conditions built into the rules, there's not much wiggle room for creativity. The only thing I can think of is using Handle Animal abuse to get a Battletitan Dinosaur as his cohort/mount, since it is a non-magical animal.

[Chuckthedwarf]

Don't remember rules for grafts, but if their creation involves something supernatural, or they grant supernatural or spell-like abilities, then no, you can't have them.

Yes, yes, all fine and dandy, but also not relevant to the exercise at hand at all.



Good grief people, don't you read the first post at all?

Straight classed fighter. Extraordinary abilities are allowed, which opens up most maneuvers.

I fail to see how it's irrelevant. If the game belongs to and is largely based upon genres that already don't allow non-magical heroes to do a whole lot without any supernatural help, why should the game mechanics allow it?

Not to mention the fact that the game is balanced (haha, D&D, balanced...) around a PARTY of adventurers doing things. That's why there are roles. That's why you have fighter/cleric/thief/wizard "archetypes".

Even if you're going to explore this preposterous scenario - a completely magicless single fighter fighting against a magical flying monster in a system that's based largely around teamwork and, yes, magic (enchanted weapons were a big thing even in 1st ed, and I think only fighters could use them or something silly like that) - you must understand that simply knocking 2 stat ****s against each other will result in fighter dying. There will HAVE to be plot-centric excuse for the fighter to even see the big bad dragon face to face and fight him if the dragon acts according it its intelligence and disregards most tropes that make super geniuses act like idiots and exist solely to have the good guy win.

Seeing how the mechanics in most RPGs that involve magic tend to have a magical solution to most problems, there are probably no rules for badass normal things like throwing giant set of bolas to tie the dragon wings together and have it fall down. 3.5 almost certainly doesn't have this, without any magical help, even though it might make sense otherwise. You simply can't "trip" a flying target out of the air even in situations when it makes sense and is actually probable to work.

So, seeing how one of the biggest advantages of dragons over a fighter is flying - because even with DR, AC, and whatever, at least the fighter can swing at it when he can reach it, but when it's flying he can't really do **** - the best idea to defeat it would be through luring it somewhere where it can't fly high enough to be out of your reach.

Seeing how high level dragons have rather high intelligence and wisdom (anything above negative modifiers in wisdom and intelligence probably won't follow someone into a place where one of it's major advantages is denied. What's the fighter gonna do, threaten to kill the dragon's girlfriend to lure it into the cave? Good luck with that... You'll have to catch another big-ass dragon for that first, disable it and drag it into the cave. ALL WITHOUT MAGIC) there's literally no reason for them to fight the fighter fairly.

A non-magical fighter would have no way of affecting a dragon or endangering it's possessions or dear ones. Hell, it might not even be able to damage it without power attacking. So why should it even bother?

TL;DR. This experiment is futile if you're willing to actually be realistic when considering the behaviour of a genius level intelligence dragon. This system isn't made with one on one non-magical fights between regular shmucks with swords and huge flying magic lizards in mind, so why even bother?

[Eldariel]

The biggest advantage a Dragon has is being a competent spellcaster in the older age categories. An Archer Fighter could take down some of the lesser Dragons but is severely hampered by DR (the good ways of dealing with it are all from other classes, or magical) and of course has serious trouble with spellcasting. So the answer is, "Not CR 16 for sure".

[Alleran]

TL;DR. This experiment is futile if you're willing to actually be realistic when considering the behaviour of a genius level intelligence dragon.
Also, the dragon has access to all of its abilities. Including spellcasting. So any dragon with spellcasting to any significant degree is going to win.

The fighter is doomed.

[Chuckthedwarf]

A fighter would pretty much have to be a charger. With a mount, a lance, and all the relevant feats including Spirited Charge, Power Attack, Leap Attack and Storm Trooper, the fighter might actually do relevant damage in one hit if he gets the dragon in range first. Because a dragon won't stay around.
(Looking at the Black Dragon stats from SRD)
In straight forward combat situation, he might have a good chance - if he makes all the saves to fearful presence, and whatever possible spells a dragon might fling at the fighter. SRD is showing pretty low AC for even the Great Wyrm (42) and a 20 fighter with 18 str (could probably make it 20 using elite array if you focus on strength) and a masterwork weapon + weapon focus and greater weapon focus might have about 20-25% chance of hitting it.

If we go lower, an old dragon has only 35 AC, allowing the fighter to hit at least one attack per round with the previous feats/abilities with a pretty reasonable chance of success. 20 + 4 + 3 = can hit on 8...

An old dragon has 337 health, and a charging mounted fighter (+4 str mod) with Power Attack, Leap Attack, Spirited Charge should be able to do decent damage, holding the lance in 2 hands. 3( 1d8 + 6 + 20 x 5) should do at least 321 damage on a successful hit which is almost enough to kill it - and with a charger build, against an Old Black Dragon, the above fighter can hit it on anything higher then 8.

If you can use the skill trick that allows you to make a touch attack after spending on standard action and a roll, you might have a good chance of hitting an older dragon. But fighters aren't exactly good with skills, and to my knowledge both the feat and the skill trick that let you hit something ignoring its armor requires a spot check- which isn't a fighter's skill...

So hitting anything older then Old Black Dragon is unlikely. Not only they're smarter, you have a tiny chance of actually hitting them and delivering the damage, and their own damage won't exactly let you survive for long.

An optimized charger can do reasonable damage to down a dragon in one or two hits but they have to get to it first, and assume that the dragon won't simply fly away.

Thankfully, there's actually a solution for this - nobody usually cares for flying maneuverability rules, and they do not let anything with below then Good flight maneuverability to hover - and dragons tend to be poor or clumsy at that.

Not to mention, unless you have perfect maneuverability or have specific feats, you can't simply turn at will. With poorer maneuverability, you will have to fly quite far before you can turn 180. Similar limitations apply to actually gaining flight.

With sufficient luck and very specific feats, a fighter might only need one hit on a dragon to doom it's fate. Not necessarily by one shotting it, but by taking advantage of the Hammer and Piton feat from Dungeonscape, which will allow you to hammer a piton into a dragon and actually hang on to it with climb checks.

And climb is actually a fighter skill, so you might have a somewhat reasonable chance of success at beating the dragon's AC with a climb check to hold on.

But then, without charging, and with only one hand available to deal damage, you're quite unlikely to do 300+ damage, through DR, while being clawed and possible breathed at by the dragon.

So, yeah, a ground-bound Old Dragon might be the only thing you're actually likely to kill. If you hit it while it's on the ground with a charge with the classic ubercharger build while mounted, if it tries to fly away it will likely provoke an attack of opportunity that will end it.

Otherwise, you won't survive long enough.

[Alleran]

If we go lower, an old dragon has only 35 AC, allowing the fighter to hit at least one attack per round with the previous feats/abilities with a pretty reasonable chance of success. 20 + 4 + 3 = can hit on 8...
Unless it buffs its AC with spells. Which a genius-level intellect dragon would do.

[Thurbane]

Is there any way for a single classed fighter to get pounce, or an equivalent, without any magic involved?

How about a focused chucker, stocked up on flasks of Aboleth Mucus (SS). DC 19 Fort save or lose the ability to breather air for 3 hours...hello, suffocation! Naturally, most dragons are going to breeze the save in, but throw enough of this stuff at them, and they might just roll a 1 eventually.

For flight, how about the Dragon Wings feat chain...or does that count as magical? If it's allowed, how about the Air Heritage feat for a speed boost?

Lastly, if the fighter can wrangle a Battletitan mount, is there any non-magic way to get it flight as well?

[RaginChangeling]

Yeah, I mean I guess we could get a Raptoran able to do... something. Though his fly speed's going to max out at less than half of what a Dragon can get from the mid-levels and his ability scores are going to be poor.

I mean you'e looking at a maximum to hit of roughly,

+20 BaB
+6 (22 strength, 18 +4 level up)
+1 Masterwork
+2 (Weapon focus line...)

+29

A CR 20 Black Wyrm has +39 AC inherently without counting any of it's nifty spells or feats. Even with as much of the ubercharger as you can fit on this build you're going to be missing more than half the time and not dealing nearly enough damage to it before it utter crushes you.

The Young Adults, CR 9 and up have Damage Reduction/Magic so plinking away at them with a bow becomes difficult as hell. I mean I guess if you were fighting a particularly stupid Dragon you might be able to kill one that was still Young, but even then I'd put my money on the Dragon.

[Thurbane]

Is Knowledge Devotion magical? If not, you could invest in Knowledge Arcana, and get up to +5 to hit and damage.

Reckless Offense can give an extra +2 to hit...

[Daftendirekt]

Regardless of anything the Fighter does, no matter how cheesy you make it...

Dragon casts Celerity. He wins.

[faceroll]

Feats: Wild Cohort.
This lets a fighter get an animal companion pet that won't die in the first firebreath from the dragon.

Spirited charge
Triple lance charge damage. Smart.

Deep Impact. A psionic feat. Is it legit? Pretty cool if it was.

Power attack. Turn some of that to hit into damage.

Race:
Dragonborn Lolth-touched Half-minotaur Water Orc. This gets you a lot of strength and large size. Also, some flying, in case your mount dies.

Ride a flying animal, making a diving charge with a lance. Do some damage. Take dragon retaliation. Diving charge again. Someone loses. Hope dragon doesn't grapple.


Regardless of anything the Fighter does, no matter how cheesy you make it...

Dragon casts Celerity. He wins.

Dragon gets a standard action. What's it do with it?

[Hazzardevil]

I don't think a Dire Bat would work. Unless I'm horribly misunderstanding something, those fly at 40 ft., while the slow flying dragons fly at a minimum of 100 ft. The dragon's actions'd get a bit wonky, but honestly, that's not really a comfort.

Out in the open, without some serious opti-fu which I'm not apt to provide, I don't think we're going to be killing past Young Adult.

Now, with some serious opti-fu or silliness... is it possible to do something like have a small Raptoran (templated somehow, I don't know) riding a medium one, riding a large one or something? That'd probably give us the distance for a nice charge.

I agree, the only way is to be a mounted, shocktrooper, full attack, charger fighter. Then drop your AC to zero to deal your AC to every attack that round with shocktrooper. I think we'e made something that could actualy kill a dragon providing it gets first strike and the dragon doesn't have any swift action spells to stop this. Let me crunch some numbers here.

Presuming it has an AC of N.(I don't actually know what AC is reasonable on a level 20 fighter, I'm just going with N and people can tkae whatever numbers they want,) Drop that to 0 with shocktrooper, that is your AC for extra damage on a hit.

Then somehow get a full attack on a charge while mounted. Thats now your AC*4 on all damage in a round, with mroe to come. Now add your strength bonus *4 on damage too, plus a 4d8, which I shall presume is 4 on every roll.
Then multiply all that by 4 because of spirited charge and presuming teh AC and Strength is 20 that is.

4d8+80+20*4 because of spirited charge.

the 80 isw from shocktrooper, 4d8 is lance damage, 20 is from your strength bonus and the *4 is spirited charge. and then if you rolled a critical hit that is *3 making silly numbers. Don't multiply it by 3 and you have 464 damage.

[MageofMystra]

There's a few problems with that:

Firstly, I don't think you can get pounce without any magic or any classes besides Fighter. Maybe you can get some sort of pseudo-pounce offa a feat? I don't know.
Secondly, you need to win initiative (I think most if not all dragons have +0, so not an issue.)

Once our dragon hits CL 4 (I think; sorcerer casting, right?), it gets Lesser Celerity (or not, I'm sure there are a hundred spells that'll mess with us better), and heck, it can even use that to mess with up (fly straight up, or fly away... mainly depends on what we're riding), or any other number of things. Like burrowing, if it's a certain type, and really felt like a jerk.

I'm going to make the blanket statement the fighter's just plain ol' boned.


I think we're going about this all wrong, though. We've got a 20th level fighter with full WBL, right?

Here's my proposed method:
Bribe your way (probably not hard, bribery may not even be needed) to an audience with the king, or any other important figure.
Discuss how there's this dragon who's a menace. The king can't do diddly squat about it, but he has some important abilities for us.
Get someone to dramatically carry in all your WBL (preferably as coins), and say that you're going to post a bounty of all that stuff on the dragon's head. Get the king, or anybody with influence to post this all over the place, hire people to dress up in cloaks and sit in the corners of taverns, paste a poster at every corner.

Stipulate that the full reward is collected if the dragon is delivered with -1 to -10 HP.

Wait for a REAL party of adventurers to do your job. Coup de grace the dragon if it comes in semi-alive.

:smallbiggrin:

[faceroll]

Here's my proposed method:
Bribe your way (probably not hard, bribery may not even be needed) to an audience with the king, or any other important figure.
Discuss how there's this dragon who's a menace. The king can't do diddly squat about it, but he has some important abilities for us.
Get someone to dramatically carry in all your WBL (preferably as coins), and say that you're going to post a bounty of all that stuff on the dragon's head. Get the king, or anybody with influence to post this all over the place, hire people to dress up in cloaks and sit in the corners of taverns, paste a poster at every corner.

Stipulate that the full reward is collected if the dragon is delivered with -1 to -10 HP.

Wait for a REAL party of adventurers to do your job. Coup de grace the dragon if it comes in semi-alive.

:smallbiggrin:

That is almost as lame as I am drunk.

[Frozen_Feet]

Thousand people missing the point:

You've simply failed to realize what I'm after here. I know the rules are centered around a party defeating opposition, I know that without magic the fighter is going to get screwed sooner or later.

Note how I put the question: what is the highsest CR dragon? If the answer is "8 or 9" (border for Young Adult category), then fine, question answered. But nagging about abilities of high-level dragons and how the fighter isn't supposed to fight them in these conditions is irrelevant,
because I'm deliberately pushing most of that aside to have a very narrow theoretical optimization excercise.

I see many comments on how "dragon is caster, dragon wins lol", but for example, a White Dragon doesn't get spellcasting before Young Adult category. And whily my rules state "assume smart opposition", not all dragons are, indeed, that smart.

This is definitely not the same as asking how many dragons can a level 1 commoner defeat. ECL 20 Fighter, as outlined for the exercise, has myriad non-magical options a Commoner doesn't, and is mechanically stronger all around. What we're trying to gauge here is how strong.

Play along, please. I don't need you telling how an exercise is "stupid" or "futile" because it poses an unlikely scenario. It doesn't do squat for answering the question.

[Hazzardevil]

Wait, a fighter can get pounce if it's a catfolk but that then means it can't fly without magic.

[Peregrine]

Okay, so we've got an ubercharger build here, something that can one-shot a weak enough dragon -- because that's pretty much the only way that the fighter would win. He needs to sneak up on the dragon and take it out while it's flat-footed. Or at the very least, before it can escape his effective range. Let's assume, then, that the fighter is sneaking up on the dragon in its lair. It's simple, it's plausible, it's got literary precedent to back it up.

Problem: Alarm is a 1st-level spell that shuts down pretty much any fighter's non-magical attempt to sneak into the lair.

Result: The highest-CR dragon with no spellcasting abilities is a young adult white dragon, CR 8. 142hp; that seems tough but doable. Hey, its grapple modifier is "only" +23; a fighter 20 is going to have +20 from BAB alone. Grappling the dragon is actually a possibility...
[hr]
Anyway, having now constructively contributed to the problem at hand, I would also like to weigh in on the narrowness or pointlessness of the question. If you just want answers, not debate about the parameters of the exercise, skip ahead. :smallsmile:

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy theoretical exercises like this -- which is why I was happy to contribute to an actual answer first. I'm not missing the point, I just want to politely rant about the point a little bit. You see, something has always irked me about these sorts of questions: the "no magic" bit.

I don't like that magic is treated as the exclusive province of the spellcasters, and fighters and their ilk are treated as somehow "failing" at their jobs if they use magic equipment. I disagree. I believe that magic is the province of all characters. Spellcasters just have a class feature called "make magic yourself"; everyone else has to use items. (It's kind of like how monks don't need items to get high damage dice, only spellcasters are actually powerful...)

To my thinking, a fighter with magic items and buffs, or even a rogue using UMD, is not "powerful because it's pretending to be a wizard" and thus failing to act like their own class. A fighter with a magic sword and a potion of fly is a proper fighter. A fighter without these things is like a wizard without a spellbook or eight hours' rest... though funnily enough, the fighter is actually more powerful in that situation.

It's almost like some game designer thought that "being seriously hampered by the loss of your gear" was a fair balancing point for Phenomenal Cosmic Power, and that a class that's less powerful at its best is fine if it loses less at its worst. That would certainly explain the monk...

[/rant]

[HalfDragonCube]

Not to sure whether this counts, but dex poison (Is that allowed? Poisons are nonmagical) can take down most dragons since they only have dex 10.

Once the dragon is paralysed then keep coup-de-gracing it until it dies or use large amounts of con poison.

[Firechanter]

Don't poisons allow Fort saves, which Dragons are generally pretty good at?

[Runestar]

I think even a large dragon of cr8-9 would still stand a modest chance of grappling a fighter. A human fighter20 would have bab+20 and +5str, a young adult white would have bab+15, +4size and +4str. Both could take improved grapple, so that cancels out.

So yeah, without magic gear, he is pretty much boned in a straight up fight. :smallannoyed:

[Thurbane]

Wait, a fighter can get pounce if it's a catfolk but that then means it can't fly without magic.
It can if the Draconic Wings feat chain isn't considered "magic".

[MarkusWolfe]

As a barbarian who goes after dragons specifically, I've got to say it's virtually impossible for a straight fighter to kill a respectable without magic equipment.

Sure, you can negate the dragon's flight by fighting it in a small space, but that still leaves a high AC and DR/magic to get past. You also can expect to take damage from every attack, as you can't get your own AC high enough to stop anything other than a natural 1. Your reflex save probably isn't that great, and you've got no way to replenish hitpoints. Barring siege weaponry and/or DEX poison with a very high fort save, he's simply got no way to win.

On the other hand, I must say that some magics are more effective than others and will go a lot farther against dragons. Energy resistance or immunity can protect against or completely negate the threat of the dragons breath weapon. Hide from Dragons or Baneblind will render you undetectable until you attack (one of the big problems with charge builds is that some dragons have Improved Grab and Swallow on their bite attacks), Dragon Bane gets an extra +2 to attack and +2d6 to damage....the list goes on.

Also, there are some feats that enable you to actually have a chance against the dragons grapple, bullrush or overrun, but it's not enough to get the job done on it's own.

[Peregrine]

I think even a large dragon of cr8-9 would still stand a modest chance of grappling a fighter. A human fighter20 would have bab+20 and +5str, a young adult white would have bab+15, +4size and +4str. Both could take improved grapple, so that cancels out.

That still gives the fighter an advantage of +2. That's not bad... and your Strength estimate is conservative, based I'm guessing on the elite array (best starting score = 15), which is not typical in theoretical optimisation. A 20th-level human fighter who had a 17 or 18 before the racial bonus will end up with a Strength modifier of +6; being a half-orc would be good for another +1.

Besides which, really, how many dragons take Improved Grapple? (I don't think their natural attacks can obviate the prerequisite of Improved Unarmed Strike, which for a dragon is just a stupid feat.)

Book-standard young adult white dragon: +23
Half-orc fighter with Imp. Grapple: +31

Also, this probably isn't compatible with the grapple tactic, but since we're talking about white dragons... is alchemy allowed? You have to be a spellcaster to use Craft (alchemy), but alchemical items are not actually magical. And alchemist's fire would be a real boon against the white dragon. Failing that, anything flammable could be put to good use...

[Sr.medusa]

You're rich, buy a roc, take leadership and buy an army with some balistas and wait the dragon out of his lair. Basic siege. If he flies, charge with your roc and your ubercharger build (with invest in hand animals).

Young adult dragons might be posible ¿no?

[crazedloon]

To negate the fly speed I would use the giant bane feat from complete warrior to hop on. We can easily climb on board at level 20 (dc 10 climb check) now the problem becomes getting that climb modifier as high as we can.

23 for level
6 for strength
3 for skill focus
2 for athletic
8 for racial climb speed
2 mountaineer
2 for master work tools
2 peak hopper
2 focused skill user

I am sure there is some other modifiers I am missing. But that gives you a +50 modifier and taking 10 (racial speed) gives you a 60 base so you can not be shaken off by anything without a grapple mod of 40 or less (i.e. dragons at about huge size)

Now you need to ensure it doesn't just beat you off so raise your AC relatively high should be next priority

4 giant bane
4 underfoot combatant
1 size
4 titan fighting
4 mithral shield (focused/specialized)
3 dex
2 dragonborn
20 improved combat expertise

again I am sure this could get better but this means only things with better than +32 base attack are hitting you on anything but Natural 20s

now you have dumped your attack bonus down the drain you need a way to bypass that high AC, that is simple enough with deep impact allowing you to abuse that horrid touch AC.

The big guy could still grapple you so you need to defend yourself vs that but Close Quarters fighting allows you to stop a grapple with a melee attack (which could be a touch attack with deep impact) or the fact that the above AC is all used as tocuh AC helps

feats used:
skill focus
athletic
(f)martial strike
(f)martial stance (dance of the spider)
mountaineer
peak hopper
focused skill user
(f) giant bane
(f) underfoot combatant
(f) dodge
(f) titan fighting
(f) focused shield
(f) shield specialization
(f) shield ward
(f) combat expertise
(f)improved combat expertise
wild talent

Race:
Dragonborn/gnome

-------------------------------------------

I am sure there is some holes in this plan but as it stands you can full round run to the dragon to get next to it. It than gets an action to kill you, if it does not you climb on. From there you hit it 1 time a turn vs touch AC than refocus, it gets to try and shake you off (which it can't) or try and Natural 20 you with attacks.

This works perfectly up to huge dragons (CR vary but the general numbers of that size tend to be the same) and reduces as the dragons get better

[Frozen_Feet]

Not to sure whether this counts, but dex poison (Is that allowed? Poisons are nonmagical) can take down most dragons since they only have dex 10.

Once the dragon is paralysed then keep coup-de-gracing it until it dies or use large amounts of con poison.
Sure they are allowed. Of course:


Don't poisons allow Fort saves, which Dragons are generally pretty good at?

... so you need pretty darn many poisoned attacks to make it stick. Which might not be that much of a problem, actually, since we have lots and lots of gold to throw around. I've been thinking of an Archer build shooting loads of poisoned arrows.



Problem: Alarm is a 1st-level spell that shuts down pretty much any fighter's non-magical attempt to sneak into the lair.

Alarm has a poor duration and weak range, so it actually takes a pretty respectable dragon to make good use of it. (Adult on average based on a quick glance at SRD.) Finding and reaching the lair of the dragon would pose a bigger challenge to the fighter than the actual spell. It might pay for the Fighter to wait just outside the lair, rather than try to sneak right in.



Also, this probably isn't compatible with the grapple tactic, but since we're talking about white dragons... is alchemy allowed? You have to be a spellcaster to use Craft (alchemy), but alchemical items are not actually magical. And alchemist's fire would be a real boon against the white dragon. Failing that, anything flammable could be put to good use...
If they're not actually supernatural, they're allowed. The idea that alchemy can't be used by non-casters has always seemed stupid to me anyways.

[Sucrose]

crazedloon, psionics, including psionic feats, count as magic for the purposes of this exercise, I think. Same deal with supernatural maneuvers, such as the Dance of the Spider stance. That said, since there are non-supernatural maneuvers, you'd best believe that I'll be taking advantage as well.

My plan:

Priority 1: Acquire an intelligent, nonmagical flying mount (ideally one of reasonable size, like a griffon, since that makes it easier to....

Priority 2: Pump Hide by making it a class skill (by studying under an older dragonslayer, to get DMG 2's Apprentice feat, along with picking up Oriental Adventures's Versatile feat. Your other new class skills should be Move Silently, Spot, and Listen), and getting all the best nonmagical equipment for the skill (masterwork camouflage (Hiding tools), alchemical bonuses, and so on). If you can use the Thug variant for more skill points, do so. The lost armor proficiencies are irrelevant; if the dragon gets a chance to attack, it will hit you without magic.

Teach your mount some hiding tricks, and get Improved Cunning Ambush from PHB 2, to permit you to hide your mount using your own Hide ranks, and get a full charge off before the dragon can react.

Spend one of your three Martial Study feats to pick up Moment of Perfect Mind at level 1. You can probably survive the dragon's breath, but if you are lost in its illusions (particularly a danger with the blue dragon's terrain abilities), or dominated, or any number of other things, you are lost. You will thus need to invest in Concentration as well.

Purchase many, many trail rations. Avoid contact with civilization as you approach the dragon's lair, so that you can avoid any agents that it may have in the populace (just because it's alone for the combat does not mean that it's alone in the world. It's an intelligent, powerful, and very long-lived creature, after all). Sneak around, and try to get an idea of the dragon's typical haunts, in order to set up your ambush. Spot will permit you to observe from a safe distance, while remaining concealed yourself.

Devote three feats to picking up Pouncing Charge. Your first Martial Study should be for Rabid Wolf Strike, followed by Martial Stance to pick up Hunter's Sense, and a second Martial Study for Pouncing Charge once your IL is high enough (level 18). Hunter's Sense is secondarily useful for hunting down the dragon.

Pick up Darkstalker (I believe it to be nonmagical, anyway) and have your mount do the same. This will let your ambush avoid being foiled by Tremorsense.

Other feats should be devoted to the ubercharger and mounted charger standbys, and initiative boosts. Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, Improved Initiative, Quick Reconnoiter, Danger Sense.

So, final tally-up:
Skills: Spot, Hide, Move Silently, Concentration, Ride (for Mounted Combat) and Listen (Survival will be useful as well, if you have skill points to spend. However, the Scent from Hunter's Sense may be sufficient to track the dragon. You also only need 12 ranks in Listen, for acquisition of the Improved Cunning Ambush teamwork benefit. So, you can get by with 5 skill points/level)
Feats: Darkstalker, Martial Study (Moment of Perfect Mind, Rabid Wolf Strike, and Pouncing Charge), Martial Stance (Hunter's Sense), Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Shock Trooper, Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, Improved Initiative, Quick Reconnoiter, Danger Sense, Versatile, Apprentice
Equipment: Masterwork lance, griffon, mundane Hide skill boosters, many many trail rations, and whatever environmental equipment is necessary (climbing kits for mountains, cold weather gear for tundra, antitoxin for swamps, etc.)

Since three of the feats are most effective at level 1 (Martial Study( MoPM), Versatile, and Apprentice) the race I'm opting for here is Human, though other races can work if you don't mind your Spot score suffering a bit, and can invest in enough intelligence to make the skills work.

The basic strategem here is to lay an ambush for the dragon at one of its favoured haunts, then, when it's well-within your mount's charge range, meaning you can make use of your Ride-By Attack, Pouncing upon it with a two-handed Power Attacking lance bum rush. If that fails to finish it off, then hopefully your init-tweaking will permit you to go first, and thereby subject it to another charge.

Happily, if you can succeed in your hiding, the dragon will not be able to cast Celerity, as it will be flatfooted. Thus, you are mostly limited to avoiding the dragons with particularly extensive scrying capabilities (allowing them potentially stay on-guard enough that you cannot surprise-charge them), and those that can cast Foresight (and thereby avoid flatfootedness). Your chief defenses are obscurity and surprise.

Assuming 28 point buy, your stat array would probably be

STR 20
DEX 14 (for initiative and improved hiding ability, mostly)
CON 14 (for backup in case the dragon manages to get a shot off)
INT 14 (10 if Thug fighter is on the table, freeing up points for other matters)
WIS 9
CHA 8

Putting your attack bonus at 20(BAB)+2(charge)+5(Strength)+1(masterwork)+1(heig ht advantage, if you find an elevated hiding place). Thus, dragons with AC over 38 will be a significant worry.

Your average damage per attack will be roughly (4.5(lance)+40(Shock Trooper)+7(Strength))*3, or 152.5. With four attacks of decreasing quality, you can generally expect at least two to hit dragons of AC 38 or below.

Thus, it is my opinion that as long as the dragons actually get out and stretch their wings, rather than letting themselves be ruled by fear of random dragon-hunters, a level 20 dedicated slayer-fighter could kill:

An Ancient Black Dragon (assuming it at least occasionally flies, rather than exclusively acting as an oversized crocodile)
An Ancient Blue Dragon (similar)
An Ancient Green Dragon
A Very Old Red Dragon
A Wyrm White Dragon
An Ancient Brass Dragon
An Ancient Bronze Dragon
An Ancient Copper Dragon
And Very Old Gold or Silver

Roughly speaking, anyway.

As for the point about Alarm mentioned earlier? It's a 20-foot radius emanation. A slayer doesn't need to get nearly that close to attack the dragon.

Edit: If finding the lair proves to still be an issue despite scent and good detection skills, a slayer would need to spend one of his remaining feats (I've used 'only' 16, leaving 2 free) on Track, and invest points in Survival, which would require a higher Intelligence modifier. It would probably be necessary to take points out of Constitution to make that work without compromising the strength of the initial plan.

[Eldariel]

Don't forget Dragons' magic. As per description, they tend to use it like Gishes; to buff themselves martially. Their magic isn't potent enough to really use against the strongest of spellcasters so they rather augment themselves and use their formidable physical ability with some magical support rather than only launching flurries of spells.

As such, you should at least account for Mage Armor in every Dragon's stat block. Quintessential Dragon-spell, low-level spell that grants them something they wouldn't otherwise have. Shield is also a consideration but not quite as relevant due to its low duration; it won't probably be up before any given encounter. Also, the Protection from Alignment-line probably becomes relevant.

And if we talk about a Dragon with over level 4 casting, that brings in Animal's X-line of buffs, something a Dragon can use to boost its various stats massively for 10 min/lvl. There's also few other buffs on this level though Alter Self notably isn't really interesting for Dragons (they prolly know Invisibility tho). 3rd level has Heroism, Haste, and some useful offensive magicks. 4th brings in Greater Invisibility & co. and is pretty darn formidable already. Above that, we're dealing with Contact Other Plane-level stupidity and I'd rather not go there.

So, any Dragon with level 3 spellcasting should probably have +4 to its Armor with potential +4 more available on moment's notice. And adjust the good stuff from then on. Ancient Black has AC in the mid-40s for example. It wouldn't even be a fight.


EDIT: Oh, and any Dragon with level 2 spells probably has Wings of Cover at least making charging notably more difficult.

[Frozen_Feet]

The above build looks interesting. It certainly looks like it'd have at least a chance against the dragons you mentioned. I'm wondering if adding Dex poison to it, as discussed, would increase its effectiveness much?

[Sucrose]

Eldariel, if your edit was in response to my proposal, you can't cast Immediate Action spells if you're flatfooted. Thus, that's only valid if they have Foresight or a similar effect up (which in turn requires casting that I believe is beyond the dragons I've listed). Otherwise, Celerity would truly be the complete and utter doom of my hypothetical dragon slayer.


The above build looks interesting. It certainly looks like it'd have at least a chance against the dragons you mentioned. I'm wondering if adding Dex poison to it, as discussed, would increase its effectiveness much?

Well, it'd give a secondary victory condition, but I rather doubt that the saves would be high enough for that to be much other than a Hail Mary.

[RaginChangeling]

Eldariel, if your edit was in response to my proposal, you can't cast Immediate Action spells if you're flatfooted. Thus, that's only valid if they have Foresight or a similar effect up (which in turn requires casting that I believe is beyond the dragons I've listed). Otherwise, Celerity would truly be the complete and utter doom of my hypothetical dragon slayer.



Well, it'd give a secondary victory condition, but I rather doubt that the saves would be high enough for that to be much other than a Hail Mary.

Considering how much random gold you'll have left over at 20th level WBL without any magical items you might as well.

[Eldariel]

Eldariel, if your edit was in response to my proposal, you can't cast Immediate Action spells if you're flatfooted. Thus, that's only valid if they have Foresight or a similar effect up (which in turn requires casting that I believe is beyond the dragons I've listed). Otherwise, Celerity would truly be the complete and utter doom of my hypothetical dragon slayer.

No, I was just listing it as something potential to consider if Dragon somehow detects you before you're in charge range (doesn't feel outside the realms of possibility; they are, after all, incredibly smart and their lairs are rarely just big openings you can walk into). The all-day buffs are something one definitely has to account for tho. No reason for a Dragon not to have Mage Armor up all day, for example, and Cat's Grace + Bear's Endurance is definitely doable too. So it's probably good to check at least +6 for the given book values far as Dragon AC goes.

It's also worth noting that the premade Dragons lack feats and all that, which also throws a monkey wrench or two into the works.

[Sucrose]

Considering how much random gold you'll have left over at 20th level WBL without any magical items you might as well.

Valid point.:smalltongue:

As for the buffs, Eldariel, I'll concede Mage Armor, but Cat's Grace is really a bit much. It's minutes/level, so even the highest-leveled of them, barring metamagic shenanigans, wouldn't be able to keep the spell up for half an hour. And a dragon slayer has all the time in the world...

[NNescio]

Blister Oil. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168100)

Allows an easily-passable Fort save, but if the Fighter stacks enough applications it wouldn't matter anyway.

[Eldariel]

Valid point.:smalltongue:

As for the buffs, Eldariel, I'll concede Mage Armor, but Cat's Grace is really a bit much. It's minutes/level, so even the highest-leveled of them, barring metamagic shenanigans, wouldn't be able to keep the spell up for half an hour. And a dragon slayer has all the time in the world...

Oh yeah, they're 1 min/lvl, not 10 min/lvl in this version. Sorry, I seemed to have some legacy stats in my brains :smallbiggrin:

[Sucrose]

Oh yeah, they're 1 min/lvl, not 10 min/lvl in this version. Sorry, I seemed to have some legacy stats in my brains :smallbiggrin:

That's fine. I personally rather wish that those spells were still at least 10 min/lvl (would save a fortune on stat boosters, letting gold be freed up for more interesting magic items), but I suppose that's neither here nor there.:smalltongue:

[NNescio]

No, I was just listing it as something potential to consider if Dragon somehow detects you before you're in charge range (doesn't feel outside the realms of possibility; they are, after all, incredibly smart and their lairs are rarely just big openings you can walk into). The all-day buffs are something one definitely has to account for tho. No reason for a Dragon not to have Mage Armor up all day, for example, and Cat's Grace + Bear's Endurance is definitely doable too. So it's probably good to check at least +6 for the given book values far as Dragon AC goes.

It's also worth noting that the premade Dragons lack feats and all that, which also throws a monkey wrench or two into the works.

Dragons also have rather astute senses.


Blindsense (Ex)
Dragons can pinpoint creatures within a distance of 60 feet. Opponents the dragon can’t actually see still have total concealment against the dragon.

Keen Senses (Ex)
A dragon sees four times as well as a human in shadowy illumination and twice as well in normal light. It also has darkvision out to 120 feet.

[Sucrose]

Dragons also have rather astute senses.

Very true. That's why I strongly recommend anyone who tries a tack similar to my own to pick up Darkstalker.

[Frozen_Feet]

This might sound like an odd question, but - how viable is hiding in the sky? I've been toying with the idea of an archery Fighter, especially meant for dealing with White dragons. After reading Eldariel's Archery handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0), here's what I've got so far:

Raptoran Thug Fighter

With Dwarvencraft Masterwork Footbow + Dragonbreath Arrows and Razorfeather arrows.

Str 14, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 8 (Adjustments for race and level not allocated)

Feats:

Weapon Focus
Point-Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Woodland Archer
Ranged Pin
Combat Expertise
Sense Weakness
Rapid Shot
Knowledge Devotion
Weapon Specialization
Ranged Weapon Mastery
Plunging Shot

Unfortunately, I don't have half the sources of these things at hand, so I can't really build it further or check how to actually put it together. But this chassis should give the archer a respectable amount of damage and few nifty situational options to use against his chosen adversary. The tactic would be to ambush the dragon

a) when it's lolling on or near the ground or a cliffside while you are flying above it. The idea is to pin it to the ground or to the cliffside and then pepper it with Dragonsbreath arrows.

b) When it's otherwise in the air and you're hiding above it.

Range is the biggest question. Dragons are darn fast, so you need to start the combat at moderate range to get a headstart, yet at the same time you can't be too far or the damn lizard will escape you.

The aim for this build is to have at least a decent chance at killing a Young Adult White dragon. What do you think?

[Flickerdart]

You can't hide in the sky unless you go above cloud cover. What would you be fighting behind? Also Ranged Pin only works if the target is wearing clothing of some sort, and only within 5ft of a surface. And it's only a DC15 Strength check to break free - which the Young Adult White does on an 11, unbuffed. What level are you at, anyway, fighting this CR8 threat?

Abusing the Handle Animal skill seems like a useful tactic - the Fighter should have plenty of cash left after equipment. I remember someone cranking HA to get a handful of Battletitans at around 5th level. Surely we can do better!

[RaginChangeling]

You can't hide in the sky unless you go above cloud cover. What would you be fighting behind?

Abusing the Handle Animal skill seems like a useful tactic - the Fighter should have plenty of cash left after equipment. I remember someone cranking HA to get a handful of Battletitans at around 5th level. Surely we can do better!

Without magic or magical items and confined to Fighter? I doubt it.

Lets see,

11 Ranks
+3 Skill focus
+2 Cha Bonus (Realistically)
+2 Animal Affinity
+2 Masterwork Item

+19 isn't going to do much besides maybe train a willing Roc to be a mount or something.

[Flickerdart]

Fighters get Handle Animal in-class, so that's 23 ranks.

Ah, found the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7097263&postcount=38). The character gets three Battletitans (CR 16) at 4th level.

We don't get some of the things used there, but...
23 ranks = 23
Uncivilized trat = 1
Skill Focus Handle Animal = 3
Dinosaur Wrangler = 4
Animal Affinity = 2
Organization affiliation = 4
Masterwork item = 2
Flexible Mind = 1
--------------------
A +40 to the check, even without a CHA bonus. The DC is 15+HD, so we can shoot for 35 hit dice dinos (or 31-HD non-dinosaurs). Putting points in CHA or using a +CHA race raises that further - we're 2 points of CHA away from battletitans. I won't even mention the non-Animal types since they have Supernatural abilities which is cheating, but... 12 headed Cryohydras. :smallwink:

[Frozen_Feet]

You can't hide in the sky unless you go above cloud cover. What would you be fighting behind? Also Ranged Pin only works if the target is wearing clothing of some sort, and only within 5ft of a surface. And it's only a DC15 Strength check to break free - which the Young Adult White does on an 11, unbuffed. What level are you at, anyway, fighting this CR8 threat?
Drat. I was hoping you could pin the dragon's wings. Oh well, one potential tactic down.

But clouds, and mist, can actually exist fairly close to the ground level, plus there could be other places of cover in the mountainous regions some dragons favor. Wouldn't Precise shot and derivants actually make fighting in the cloud cover a reasonably good choice of battlegorund?

Oh, and it's still ECL 20 fighter as outlined in the first post. :smalltongue: The point of this particular archer build would be to at least be able to take down Young Adult whites and below, and then see what it can do above that.


Abusing the Handle Animal skill seems like a useful tactic - the Fighter should have plenty of cash left after equipment. I remember someone cranking HA to get a handful of Battletitans at around 5th level. Surely we can do better!

Sure, but remember - just one cutesy little pet for mount. :smallwink:

[Flickerdart]

Well, stack some templates on that Battletitan and it should be a decent enough "cutesy pet".

[Thurbane]

Well, stack some templates on that Battletitan and it should be a decent enough "cutesy pet".
Within the framework of this challenge, any template that changes it's type from Animal would disqualify it from use as a pet/mount. There's only a handful of templates that would allow that to happen - Warbeast, Horrid and Magebred from memory.

Could the Battletitan qualify for the Improved Draconic Wings feat? Swap out it's set feats, and take some more useful ones...

[Frozen_Feet]

As far as oddball tactics go, Callos_DeTerran suggested tricking the dragon to eating the fighter... and then attacking it from the inside.

Another bizarre question - can wings be sundered?

[crazedloon]

crazedloon, psionics, including psionic feats, count as magic for the purposes of this exercise, I think. Same deal with supernatural maneuvers, such as the Dance of the Spider stance.

It was never clarified if the feats themselves are banned or just using the actual powers/items are.

Dance of the Spider is not supernatural.

If the psionics are not allowed you simply loose the easy means of dealing damage. Now you are simply set back to who natural 20s the most unless someone knows of another means of getting touch attacks as a fighter

[Thurbane]

Another bizarre question - can wings be sundered?
AFAIK, the only creature that is subject to sundering is a Hydra with it's heads. There is an injury to body parts variant in UA that might make crippling the wings possible, but not under standard rules.

[Flickerdart]

As far as oddball tactics go, Callos_DeTerran suggested tricking the dragon to eating the fighter... and then attacking it from the inside.

Dragons don't Swallow Whole. If it ate the Fighter, the Fighter wouldn't be in any condition to attack.

Edit: Actually, that gives me an idea. Get Escape Artist in-class, cheese out a check of 80 and squeeze down the orifice of your choice.

[Irreverent Fool]

Dragons don't Swallow Whole. If it ate the Fighter, the Fighter wouldn't be in any condition to attack.

Edit: Actually, that gives me an idea. Get Escape Artist in-class, cheese out a check of 80 and squeeze down the orifice of your choice.

Dragons can gain swallow whole.

There are plenty of ways to get attacks in while swallowed, but it's not so advantageous for the fighter since he doesn't gain any particular benefit for attacking the now flat-footed dragon.

On the other hand, if the fighter has some way to full attack while swallowed (which treats him as grappled), it's a pretty good deal. No full attacks from the dragon, no breath weapon... just the crushing and acid damage, which will likely be less than he'd suffer in toe-to-toe combat.

Counting on a specific action from the dragon, aside from using its breath weapon, is probably not the best tactic, though.

[Kyberwulf]

Well, depending on if your willing to let me upgrade gear to fit my size....
I would say a Half-Ogre equipped with Harpoons.....Size appropriate nets and tanglefoot bags.

And depending on how you want to view things,... the Greathorn Minotaur Great Hammer would do you well.

no matter what way you go,.. the Sense weakness feat is a must ^_^

Oh, are Mithril or Adamantite not allowed? I remember reading someplace, that are non-magical in nature. >.>

[Runestar]

Would hulking hurler work here? Even without magic gear, you should have no issues dealing a 5-digit damage figure, possible more with warhulk? :smalltongue:

[Frozen_Feet]

Again, straight-classed fighter. So no.

I'm curious - what kind of saves would a dragon need to make to get out of size-appropriate nets and tanglefoots?

[Kyberwulf]

I imangine, the DC stays the same,... but i was more wondering if it would be able to affect larger creatures.

My friends and I, where wondering if said fighter has to create all the gear himself? Can we assume that the fighter can go all over, and get supplies? Can he contract out service, but has to fight the Dragon Man-o y Dragon- o?


Poisons... Megapede Poisons from the Drungeonscape book pg.129
Take the Master of poison Feat from Drows of the Underdark
Then Poison Expert and Poison Master From Complete Scoundrel.

[Lui]

well i must say i have many things to share on this topic. I and a group of fellow dwarves just reached level 20 and took out an insanely strong ancient red dragon (so CR 26). suffice it to say that our master choose his spells from monte cook's manuals, so first round he created and exact copy of himself. oh and he used many time stops in order to buff himself, as well as to be able to use breath weapon like 3 times in a round. he wore armor (42 didn't seem enough) etc. etc. I could really tell you all if you are interested. but straight to the point for now. i don't understand why not to use magic weapons, since one of the best weapons of a dragon is his magic (really, i'm not kidding). anyway we used magic wep and armors and we had a cleric, but for the rest, fighters: dwarf barbarian (me, a nameless slayer, as berserk as you can get without actually take level in the class), a dwarf defender (after the dragon died and kept fighting for a few other rounds, failing to hit him he asked "master do i realize his attacks have gotten weaker?" the answer was "he rolled 60, damn it!!") then a orc warrior-apostate and a warforged warblade-juggernauth.

anyway i also took down a dragon my CR when i was 19 (my personal revenge) and i didn't have any buffs on me. it was brutal, but i did it

i can decribe my character in detail if you are interested but basically he only cared for strenght and damege. he had 20 AC at level 20...
we used the flaws sistems to have 2 more talents. here'is his talent progression:

combat reflexes
power attack (MUST)
cleave
improved sunder
combat brute
improved critical
robilar's gambit (second MUST)
toughness (actually my muster let me takeimproved toughness instead but this just meant more HP)
last one (third MUST) cannot find the english name sorry, it was from savege species the one similar to invonontary rage, something like pain mastery. it meant that every 50 HP i lost i got +2 cumulative STR til the end of the fight then i'd be exausted. it meant like +16 str after a while
so basically i surpassed the dragon strenght with my last attacks.

so sure, you can kick the hell out of me. i literally throw myself against your readied weapons VOLUNTARILY, but that means more attacks for me. deeeeadly attacks i assure you, and the more you damege me the more i get stronger, and desperate, the more stronger i get, and the more power attack i use. so, i killed a dragon short before he killed me (and usually it happens in their round, before they can finish their attacks).
of course if they fly i can do almost nothing, but their pride is something you can use against them. after some breath weapons just tell them they are scared, and when they came ate you just thrash them, before they can even realize what you have done.

of course this is the INSANE way to do it, you can always count on other ways like my comrades did. if you liked that and wanna now more let me know. thank you

[Lui]

AFAIK, the only creature that is subject to sundering is a Hydra with it's heads. There is an injury to body parts variant in UA that might make crippling the wings possible, but not under standard rules.

i'm sorry i dunno what UA is. i really would be interested in this variant, as well as a variant that makes possible to sunder armors

[Tyndmyr]

Dungeoncrasher fighter 20.

Race: Goliath.

Dance of the Spider would be fantastic...it is Ex, after all. If that's legit, I'd go for it.

Are soulmelds legit? I'd love Mauling Gauntlet here...but we'll see.

Powerful Charge, Eberron Campaign Setting, to add another what, d12 damage on the charge?

Obviously, the shock trooper stuff. And the Mage slayer/pierce magical concealment feats. The dude is a fighter 20, he ain't short on feats. Let's take Knockback as well. It goes well with dungeoncrasher.

He'll have a wild collection of masterwork tools. He might as well. Also, MW weapons of a variety of types. A bombard from stormwrack seems about right. Basically, he could have most of the mundane gear ever printed with his WBL. I'm seriously considering VoP, though.

The lack of any other levels or gear is a severe handicap, but we can assume a non-magical strength of at least 26(18 starting, 4 racial, 4 levels). Even so, the bull rush check(not including the possibly magical things above) is a solid +16. Plus what, double the power attack penalty? So, we can pretty much just assume his bull rush check passes. He ignores any miss chances due to buffs and the like.

Now, he's ground bound, so he's reliant on sneaking into the dragons homes(generally on or below ground, as per draconomicon. Many with only one enterance, don't recall any with more than two) Pretty much a standard MO of waiting till a dragon goes inside, then following it. Meh, only so much you can do.

So, when you see them, you pretty much just charge them, using shock trooper and PAing for 19(20 if LA buyoff is allowed). Knockback triggers bull rush for free when the charge hits. Bull rush -> Dungeoncrasher damage -> Dragon goes splat.

At a minimum, he should be able to plaster an adult white dragon, since it only casts as a first level sorc. Spells are good, but level one spells are not going to practically do much. Sure, he's only CR10, but he has essentially no chance to win this fight. Higher targets might be viable in the right situation, but as the spellcaster level escalates, it rapidly gets tougher.

Note also the fear aura. There are lots of ways to become more resistant to fear...but you don't want to soak all your feats on it, and the rest are mostly PrC or magic based.

If you have leftover feats, feel free to thumb through ToB to find a maneuver that would go well with the combo for a bit of extra splatter.

Edit: feel free to pay someone before you leave town to apply Black Lotus Poison to your weapon as well. Just in case it works.

[OrganicGolem]

My suggestion: a stone giant, it can throw a rock 180 ft which will add its immense strength to damage easily overcoming several of the lower end damage reductions. Not to mention how we have a real competition for grappling at this point, and with +11 natural armor a real chance of not getting hit. Sure its 18 levels just to take the race, but that does allow for 2 levels of fighter.

[Coidzor]

Well, the PrC is half-casting progression, so if one went full into it and did the expected entry, one would have around 4-5th level spells as a 20th level character with full iteratives but not full BAB. There's certainly some dragons that could be slain by that.

The first level only being taken as a dip is generally for a more melee/hp weak but spellcasting strong gishening, which, if all else fails, is still a caster with 9th level spells even if the hitting it would prove ineffective.


5) Assume intelligent opposition. That is, the dragon will try to use all its abilities to best extent it can, in accordance to its Int and Wis. However, the dragon is alone as well.

The scenario you actually posit though is just plain unfair though, as you're essentially pitting a gish who can pretty much just *leave* using mundane means at any point and survive against a naked fighter.

[Hyfigh]

That still gives the fighter an advantage of +2. That's not bad... and your Strength estimate is conservative, based I'm guessing on the elite array (best starting score = 15), which is not typical in theoretical optimisation. A 20th-level human fighter who had a 17 or 18 before the racial bonus will end up with a Strength modifier of +6; being a half-orc would be good for another +1.

Besides which, really, how many dragons take Improved Grapple? (I don't think their natural attacks can obviate the prerequisite of Improved Unarmed Strike, which for a dragon is just a stupid feat.)

Book-standard young adult white dragon: +23
Half-orc fighter with Imp. Grapple: +31

Also, this probably isn't compatible with the grapple tactic, but since we're talking about white dragons... is alchemy allowed? You have to be a spellcaster to use Craft (alchemy), but alchemical items are not actually magical. And alchemist's fire would be a real boon against the white dragon. Failing that, anything flammable could be put to good use...

Kudos. You've now used a level 20 character focused on grappling to outgrapple a CR 8 creature that won't likely grapple... :smallconfused: I guess if you surprise the bugger you can finish the fight, but I can't say that doing this is any better than a normal charger.

[Rickshaw]

I think the answer lies in archery. In shneeky's recent post about using damage as a no save just die effect, Eldariel had an archer build that easily fit the bill, about halfway down the third page. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195076&page=3)

now it DID rely heavily on a crazy bow and some of the ridiculously broken ToB martial junk. but if you adapt that build to straight fighter, I think it would fare much better than a grappler.

[Eldariel]

I think the answer lies in archery. In shneeky's recent post about using damage as a no save just die effect, Eldariel had an archer build that easily fit the bill, about halfway down the third page. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195076&page=3)

now it DID rely heavily on a crazy bow and some of the ridiculously broken ToB martial junk. but if you adapt that build to straight fighter, I think it would fare much better than a grappler.

Well, archery of course helps but frankly, as long as it's a straight Fighter (you can do quite a bit archery-wise), you'll have a few serious issues:
- You can't overcome DR (the class I used, Eternal Blade, is one of the two non-magical ways of doing it; the other is Factotum from Dungeonscape)
- The spellcasting of the higher level Dragons simply negates non-magical archery quite efficiently; at the point where they can cast Celerity, there's little point in shooting at them without an ability to take your turn as an immediate action.
- Dragons will, most likely, have access to Wind Wall on 3rd level spells (since it happens to synergize with Dragons' natural abilities quite well) which also makes life much harder.

As a straight Fighter with a non-magical bow, you could potentially get...hmm, I dunno, 7 attacks. You can get somewhat respectable attack bonus (we would obviously be applying variants up the wazoo since we're a straight Fighter), probably in the neighborhood of +32 or so at the -5 you're suffering, and get...Iono, 1d10+14 or so per arrow. Hell, you could Monkey Grip it up to go to ~+30 for 2d8+14; almost as good as Power Attack for 2!

You could also use poisons (Master of Poisons makes it safe enough) for a bit more; though Black Lotus Extract doesn't exactly cut it against a Dragon so you'd have to use those superexpensive poisons from Dungeonscape. Then again, we have nothing else to spend our WBL on.

Still, Dragons begin getting DR/Magic in ~Juvenile - Adult age and it grows prohibitively high quite quickly. We also have the Race Against The Spell Levels to deal with.


EDIT: IF my memory serves me correctly with regards to ways to overcome DR without magic. It well might not. There may have been some superobscure material or non-magical item that does that, but if there is, I don't remember right now since it's so very rarely relevant (basically only for things like this).

[Coidzor]

What's the derpiest dragon? I know there's Lindworms that a fighter could take out due to their lack of flying and... I don't think they have burrow either...

As far as I know, all of the True Dragons though, have flight and spellcasting or burrow in the case of Brown Dragons...

Though if you're making them all Xorvintaal dragons, the fighter might be relevant for slightly longer until DR just eliminates his capacity to be a threat.

[faceroll]

I suggest that, for the dragon, we use vanilla dragons (no custom feats or lore drake or that crap) with spells selected from the appropriate NPC list in the DMG. That way, this competition won't become "what does a level 20 fighter do vs. an over-optimized caster".

[Coidzor]

I suggest that, for the dragon, we use vanilla dragons (no custom feats or lore drake or that crap) with spells selected from the appropriate NPC list in the DMG. That way, this competition won't become "what does a level 20 fighter do vs. a caster".

There's an appropriate NPC list for dragons in the DMG? Where?

[Eldariel]

Though if you're making them all Xorvintaal dragons, the fighter might be relevant for slightly longer until DR just eliminates his capacity to be a threat.

Charger doesn't have relevant difficulties dealing enough damage through DR to kill any Dragon; it's just the Reaching The Dragon and Hitting The Dragon-parts that can cause issues. Oh, and the whole Not Dying To The Dragon. There's plenty of non-magical multipliers in the game, though not being able to use Frenzied Berserker of course sucks.

Archer, on the other hand, can barely get average 21 damage per arrow, at which point DR 20/Magic from the elder Dragons is pretty brutal.

[faceroll]

There's an appropriate NPC list for dragons in the DMG? Where?

There is no such list.

[Coidzor]

Archer, on the other hand, can barely get average 21 damage per arrow, at which point DR 20/Magic from the elder Dragons is pretty brutal.

Yeah, I was talking ranged, as I don't see melee-based fighters as having a chance unless the dragon was already deaf, dumb, and blind.


There is no such list.

Then what list did you mean and, again, where is it? And does it include Windwall?

[Thurbane]

i'm sorry i dunno what UA is. i really would be interested in this variant, as well as a variant that makes possible to sunder armors
Unearthed Arcana. I believe it's one of the combat variants - it should be available online as an addendum to one of the SRD sites, as it's OGL.

[faceroll]

Then what list did you mean and, again, where is it? And does it include Windwall?

In the section on NPCs, there is a pre-built character for every class, with a build at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20. I suggest that we use the spell lists from the sorcerer to draw a spell list for our dragon. Unfortunately I am away from books, so I don't know if windwall shows up on that list or not. It's also a terrible spell for a sorcerer to learn. Much better as a couple scrolls. A sorcerer does have a lot of cloud-type spells on their list.

[Gwendol]

Use tanglefoot bag and a ballista to force the (not larger than Large) dragon on the ground and charge. Or turn it into a pin cushion (death by a thousand arrows). I understand neither the Knight nor the Cavalier PrC are included in this thought excersise, although they would be good dragon killers. So, depending on the dragon it can't be older than adult, and be of CR10-11.

[Tyndmyr]

I think we have pretty decent agreement on Adult(so, about CR 10-11) being the largest you can safely kill with such limitations.

Allowing prestige classes, magic items, dips, etc would be of great help, though. I'm confident I could get is significantly higher if any of those were allowed.

[OrganicGolem]

So I ran a few test runs with a friend of mine, and it seems in all my bouts against dragons of various ages adult+ time after time I can't make my will save against the fear aura. Even went as far as to change the build so 3 feats gave bonuses against it, but even then there were times I wasn't making my save against a blue with a roll of 10.

[Eldariel]

So I ran a few test runs with a friend of mine, and it seems in all my bouts against dragons of various ages adult+ time after time I can't make my will save against the fear aura. Even went as far as to change the build so 3 feats gave bonuses against it, but even then there were times I wasn't making my save against a blue with a roll of 10.

Well, it's not that big a deal; the Fear-aura only makes you Shakened. Though if they e.g. Intimidate you afterwards, that will suck as you'll be Frightened and thus bailing. But just the Frightful Presence isn't the end of the world.

Also, Savage Species has a feat called "Cumbrous Will" which enables succeeding the Will-save at a cost. Though it's probably not worth it. I'd just eat up the Shakened. Otherwise, it costs you too much offense to pump your Will-save to reasonable levels without the Resolute ACF (supernatural), magic items or class features (given Fighter doesn't get any).

You could get Steadfast Determination but frankly, 2 feats isn't worth it when your Con won't be relevantly high anyways. Well, except you make a Mongrelfolk or something.

[Coidzor]

How well can a 20th level fighter compete with Bubs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7097263&postcount=38), anyway? And what could he get that would edge him out past CR 10-11 dragons?

Battletitans are nice, and all, but they only really extend the Fighter's Reach about... 20' into the air because they're Huge... So Maybe about 30' vertical reach with a lance or something mounted on one of them? Still easily strafable.

How much pause could 3 Rocs give to an adult dragon? Especially if a charger-build was on one of them?

[Flickerdart]

Battletitans are nice, and all, but they only really extend the Fighter's Reach about... 20' into the air because they're Huge... So Maybe about 30' vertical reach with a lance or something mounted on one of them? Still easily strafable.

A Battletitan, as a Huge biped, has 32ft vertical reach, and gets another 8 feet of air on a Jump roll of 10. Then the Fighter jumps off the Battletitan, probably getting about 5-10 feet of air. With a reach weapon, which adds another 5 feet, the manoeuvre gets 55ish feet of air.

[JaronK]

I made a character like this for a similar challenge, except that one allowed any martial class, and did allow grafts... but you had to be a threat to any creature, not just dragons.

Anyway, basic concept is a Dragonborn Water Orc with Wings, riding any appropriate flying mount, making use of a Lance, Spirited Charge, Headlong Rush, and Diving Charge. That's X5 charge damage. Now throw in Power Attack and Shock Trooper, and with enough strength to go with it you should be able to one hit TKO any dragon. Of course, this is harder without Pounce, but if you can get touch attacks somehow you're golden.

Also, are Dragons immune to fear? If not, a Zhentarium Fighter 9 with Imperious Command should be able to chain cower one, making this VERY easy indeed.

JaronK

[Gwendol]

There are several (non-magical) mounted PrC's that allow full attack for the rider on the mount's move (but typically not on a charge).

[Coidzor]

Also, are Dragons immune to fear? If not, a Zhentarium Fighter 9 with Imperious Command should be able to chain cower one, making this VERY easy indeed.

Is there any way to get it beyond your reach using feats and skilltricks alone? Because that's the main problem.


A Battletitan, as a Huge biped, has 32ft vertical reach, and gets another 8 feet of air on a Jump roll of 10. Then the Fighter jumps off the Battletitan, probably getting about 5-10 feet of air. With a reach weapon, which adds another 5 feet, the manoeuvre gets 55ish feet of air.

So Medium dragons' line breath weapons are still strafing with impunity and it takes a Gargantuan dragon to cone with impunity.

[JaronK]

Is there any way to get it beyond your reach using feats and skilltricks alone? Because that's the main problem.

No, but if you use items or feats to get Battle Leader's Charge (the second level White Raven maneuver) you can charge in ignoring AoOs, then use Intimidate as a Swift Action via Zhentarium Fighter. As long as you can get up close to do this, you should be able to take out any non immune enemy.

I'd imagine a Dragonborn (wings) Water Orc Zhentarium Fighter 9 with pumped up Intimidate (Item Familiar) should have no trouble locking down such an enemy permanently.

JaronK

[Coidzor]

I'd imagine a Dragonborn (wings) Water Orc Zhentarium Fighter 9 with pumped up Intimidate (Item Familiar) should have no trouble locking down such an enemy permanently.

Problem with Item Familiar in regards to the OP is that it requires a magic item to be made into your item familiar. What could it reliably lock down without it?

[JaronK]

Problem with Item Familiar in regards to the OP is that it requires a magic item to be made into your item familiar. What could it reliably lock down without it?

Hmm, and I'm guessing we're not allowed to use Ancestral Relic to get the magic item in question?

Then that does make it hard to get a sufficiently high Intimidate check with just Fighter levels. You could have a decent chance to scare them, but it would be by no means a guarantee and you could only try a max of twice per turn (sacrificing your attacks if you do it the second time).

JaronK

[samster712]

not very helpful but got to say it:

How many dragons could a dragonslayer slay, if a dragonslayer could slay dragons!

a Dnd tongue twister :smile: