Veggies in the Playground [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

BiblioRook

2011-03-25, 08:53 PM

Got the thumbs up from a mod, so things should be okay. But just as a reminder, please keep it civil and non-political. Hopefully that goes without saying though.

I myself have been a vegetarian for. oh, almost three years now I suppose. It's funny, I actually have absolutely no reason to be a vegetarian. I became one more just on a personal dare to see if I could handle it for about a month when I noticed how little meat I actually ate. After a month when by and noticed how little things have changed for me I figured I might as well see how long I could go with it.

That isn't to say that it's been easy. I come from the PA/Ohio area and people up there love their meat (deer hunter territory and all). My grandparents are still adjusting; needless to say, Thanksgivings are always awkward.

Hey, that's a good question actually. How do other vegetarians handle Thanksgiving?

The-Mage-King

2011-03-26, 12:07 AM

Cheese pizza. Or, if you fail at life, tofurkey.

Vaynor

2011-03-26, 03:18 AM

Cheese pizza. Or, if you fail at life, tofurkey.

My mom and sisters have a tofurkey every year for Thanksgiving. I'd rather just ignore that portion of the meal entirely, it looks terrible (but who am I to judge, I've never tried it).

I'm not a vegetarian, but I eat very little meat in general, depending on what's available, I'm not too picky.

The Rose Dragon

2011-03-26, 07:19 AM

We had a thread like this about 2 years ago, but I believe it was locked. You might want to ask a moderator if it would be a good idea to restart it. It got a bit messy last time, IIRC.

EDIT: Here it is. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6419158#post6419158)

Well, the last time the thread got locked, it was the vegans' fault (them, and the people who argued with them). If we keep it to dietary choices and not ethical and political ones, we should be safe.

zeratul

2011-03-26, 08:21 AM

I'm by no stretch of the imagination a vegetarian, but due to some recent friends of mines who are vegetarian I've gone to a couple local vegan/vegetarian places, and discovered the joy of vegan milkshakes. I have no idea how such a concoction is scientifically possible (I and one of said friends are convinced they're made through a combination of mad science and witchcraft) but damn are those things awesome. Also the particular place here has awesome names for them, nothing like ordering a "west memphis Three" or "Howard Zinn" and getting a delicious beverage. :smalltongue:

Fifty-Eyed Fred

2011-03-26, 08:35 AM

Well, I eat a lot of fruit and vegetables, but unfortunately tend to garnish them with delicious animal flesh and extra creatures. But the vegetable-loving part is there. :smalltongue:

Vegetarianism is not something I mind at all, so long as the person in question both knows the subject thoroughly and can take a joke (serious people have never been my sort of people).
The worst example I can think of regarding not knowing what vegetarianism means for the vegetarian was from a girl back at school:

"So if you're a vegetarian, why do you eat fish?"
"Because fish aren't animals, they're mammals."

Years later, I am unable to let that go. :smalltongue:

The Rose Dragon

2011-03-26, 08:36 AM

"So if you're a vegetarian, why do you eat fish?"
"Because fish aren't animals, they're mammals."

Wait.

What?

Innis Cabal

2011-03-26, 08:40 AM

Wait.

What?

While that may have no baring on logic, fish is not meat in cooking and thus would fulfill the "No eating meat" portion of the Vegetarian norm.

The Rose Dragon

2011-03-26, 08:43 AM

I was more worried about the "they are mammals, not animals" part.

Innis Cabal

2011-03-26, 08:43 AM

I was more going the whole statement was bunk by default but not inherently wrong in the spirit of the thread.

Mauve Shirt

2011-03-26, 08:44 AM

A lot of the meals I make myself are vegetarian. Mostly variations of rice and beans or pasta. The exception is sandwiches, there is always at least one type of sandwich meat in our fridge.
I'm worried that if I went truly vegetarian I'd compensate for my loss by more baked goods than I already do. "I'm giving up meat, I deserve this extra cookie!"

Fifty-Eyed Fred

2011-03-26, 08:45 AM

Wait.

What?

Precisely! It has been, I think, 4 or 5 years, and I have yet to arrive at an answer to the conundrum.
(I am aware that she would, in fact, have been a pescetarian rather than a vegetarian, but her justification of it confounds logic so very utterly.)

Tasroth

2011-03-26, 08:47 AM

"So if you're a vegetarian, why do you eat fish?"
"Because fish aren't animals, they're mammals."

Yes... I recall hearing that story before. And I'm as bewildered by it now as I was the first time.

And as it happens, I am vegetarian. Which to me at least means not any form of meat, be it from mammal, bird, fish, or any other animal.

AslanCross

2011-03-26, 08:51 AM

I avoid meat if I can help it, but it's more for health reasons. I've been trying to lose weight and I found that cutting down on red meat and avoiding pork altogether have helped me shed a lot more pounds (along with regular exercise of course). While I know beef is actually more fatty than pork, I just hate the taste of pork. :P

Mathis

2011-03-26, 09:06 AM

I love vegetables, broccoli especially. Steaming hot broccoli and carrots with a spoonful of honey ontop are usually the highlight of my dinner. However I do love meat. In fact, the thought of a juicy steak makes my mouth water. But let's say I wanted to dedicate a week to eating only vegetarian meals, what sort of dishes would the vegetarian playground reccomend?

factotum

2011-03-26, 09:14 AM

I have to say, looking at the price of meat, and comparing it to a greater volume of, say, grain, it's a hell of a lot cheaper to be a vegitarian. Ya know?

By volume the meat will have higher nutritional value and calorie content, though--this is why lions can get away with maybe one major meal a week, whereas grazing animals pretty much have to eat constantly!

Innis Cabal

2011-03-26, 09:23 AM

I have to say, looking at the price of meat, and comparing it to a greater volume of, say, grain, it's a hell of a lot cheaper to be a vegitarian. Ya know?

Except that it isn't...in fact, it's cheaper to opt out of buying veggies or meat fresh and live off bargain brand processed garbage since it's typically lower priced for how much you get and there are coupons and deals on them. Where as veggies and fresh meat work on a market system where the prices fluctuate. Veggie is one of the least economical options unless you are growing and supplying your own food for yourself. Then it's much much much cheaper since you're not actually paying for it in cash.

Starscream

2011-03-26, 09:54 AM

I've given vegetarianism some serious thought. I'm sure I could give up beef/chicken/pork with minimal difficulty.

My problem is seafood. I LOVE seafood. Fish, mollusks, and crustaceans. Baked, grilled, or sauteed. And I adore sushi.

So maybe someday I'll take the plunge and just go full pescatarian. It really wouldn't be much different than what I'm doing right now.

I just moved into a new place in Florida, and my landlords decided to have a fishing trip when they came down to sign the lease and fix up the place. So when I got here I found that they had left about $80 worth of fish in my freezer as a gift. Bought myself a couple of cookbooks, and have been trying to make a new fish meal a couple of times a week.

Kneenibble

2011-03-26, 09:59 AM

Except that it isn't...in fact, it's cheaper to opt out of buying veggies or meat fresh and live off bargain brand processed garbage since it's typically lower priced for how much you get and there are coupons and deals on them. Where as veggies and fresh meat work on a market system where the prices fluctuate. Veggie is one of the least economical options unless you are growing and supplying your own food for yourself. Then it's much much much cheaper since you're not actually paying for it in cash.

Meh. My own experience invalidates this speculation. I've been vegetarian almost nine years and my grocery bill is considerably lower than any of my friends who eat meat, they gawk at me sometimes when we talk about it. I eat well and healthy too. Meat is expensive.

By volume the meat will have higher nutritional value and calorie content, though--this is why lions can get away with maybe one major meal a week, whereas grazing animals pretty much have to eat constantly!

Humans don't sit around chewing grass though. A pound of wheat actually has more calories -- and a greater profile of micronutrients -- than a pound of ground beef, up to 30% fat content, where they are about equal in calories.

CoffeeIncluded

2011-03-26, 10:21 AM

I'm not a vegetarian, but I'm trying to eat less meat and more salads for my own health.

But I don't eat lamb or veal out of a personal choice, and I don't eat pork or shellfish (or cheeseburgers) because I'm Jewish.

Thufir

2011-03-26, 10:34 AM

To start things off, I dare someone to present a more awkward one-liner in concerns to your diet.

Grandmother: "We're having steak for dinner, but we know you don't eat meat... so we made you some chicken instead."

Can't think of one off the top of my head, but I imagine something could be devised, probably invoking the sexual connotations of 'meat' for added awkwardness.

I am not a vegetarian but am always on the lookout for some good vegetarian recipes as I really should eat more veg overall. =/

This pretty much applies to me, only at present I'm living with parents and therefore not particularly responsible for my own diet. But when I move out again this will apply to me.

Meh. My own experience invalidates this speculation. I've been vegetarian almost nine years and my grocery bill is considerably lower than any of my friends who eat meat, they gawk at me sometimes when we talk about it. I eat well and healthy too. Meat is expensive.

Likewise. When I was in my student house last year, I ate considerably less meat, because it was always the most expensive thing I might want.

Themrys

2011-03-26, 10:43 AM

The-Mage-King

2011-03-26, 11:10 AM

"So if you're a vegetarian, why do you eat fish?"
"Because fish aren't animals, they're mammals."

Wow. I hope she wasn't a Biology major (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouFailBiologyForever).

@Innis: Actually, I've done some comparisons in price, and it works out that feeding me for a week is cheaper than feeding most people for that same week.

Who said anything about veggies, anyway? I was talking rice and potatoes, both of which store well, and similar, basic, foods- you can make a lot with either of those mentioned, and they're filling.

I guess it's just a thing about personal taste. I call myself a vegitarian because I don't eat meat. Not because I eat mostly vegetables. I sustain myself on grain based foods and dairy products. Like corn and butter. Or bread and butter. Or... You get the idea.

Because, where ever you find poor people, you'll find vegitarian food.

Moff Chumley

2011-03-26, 11:55 AM

But I don't eat lamb or veal out of a personal choice, and I don't eat pork or shellfish (or cheeseburgers) because I'm Jewish.

Because you're kosher, you mean? :smallwink:

*card-carrying Jewish bacon-lover*

Mauve Shirt

2011-03-26, 12:25 PM

Here's a good vegetarian recipe that my roommate made last week! It's called something like "Spicy Ethiopian Lentil Stew". Eat it over rice.

Ingredients
1 cup brown lentils
1 large yellow onion, diced small
2 carrots, peeled and diced
4 cloves garlic, minced
2 tablespoons fresh ginger, grated
1/4 cup peanut oil (vegetable oil works too)
10 plum tomatoes, chopped
1/2 cup tomato paste
1 cup vegetable stock
1 cup frozen green peas

Spice blend:
2 tsp ground cumin
2 tsp Hungarian paprika
1 tsp ground fenugreek
1/2 tsp dried thyme
1/4 tsp ground cardamom
1/4 tsp ground coriander
1/8 tsp ground allspice
1/8 tsp ground cloves
1/8 tsp ground cinnamon
1/8 tsp cayenne pepper
1/2 tsp salt (or more to taste)

Boil the lentils for about 45 minutes or until tender.
In a large pot, over medium heat, saute the onions and carrots for 10 minutes. Add the garlic, ginger and spice blend. Saute 5 more minutes. Add the chopped tomatoes, cook 5 more minutes. Add tomato paste and mix, then add the vegetable stock. Simmer until bubbling. Add the cooked lentils and green peas, simmer 15 more minutes.

BiblioRook

2011-03-26, 02:55 PM

Who said anything about veggies, anyway? I was talking rice and potatoes, both of which store well, and similar, basic, foods- you can make a lot with either of those mentioned, and they're filling.

Not to mention delicious.
Really, stuff like rice and potatoes basically are what make if for me as a vegetarian as, despite what it sounds, I probably don't eat quite as many vegetables as a should (I don't avoid them, but as I don't have the luxury of cooking at home it gets difficult to fit them in unless you are mindful of it)

I personally never understood people trying to argue letting fish 'count' as being part of a vegetarian diet. Yes, I know it's technically pescetarian, but nearly all of those that I've met tend to try claiming otherwise.

In fact... can someone do me a favor? Every time this comes up I always find myself image searching for a picture of the 'Fish ain't meat' guy from Avatar. If anyone knows were I can get a good picture of him I would really be appreciative :smallbiggrin:

The-Mage-King

2011-03-26, 03:12 PM

Not to mention delicious.
Really, stuff like rice and potatoes basically are what make if for me as a vegetarian as, despite what it sounds, I probably don't eat quite as many vegetables as a should (I don't avoid them, but as I don't have the luxury of cooking at home it gets difficult to fit them in unless you are mindful of it)

Well, I actually don't eat those. I mostly get by with bread and butter.

I really should try some patatoes, though...

Ravens_cry

2011-03-26, 03:19 PM

I'm an Omnivore. I eat meat, I love meat, but I also enjoy fruits and vegetables a lot. A vegetable stir-fry is as good as a steak. Canned pears with nutmeg is almost as nice as a bowl of ice-cream.
The one thing I don't like is fake meat, textured soy protein and the like, those things are just, gah!

BiblioRook

2011-03-26, 03:40 PM

Well, I actually don't eat those. I mostly get by with bread and butter.

I really should try some patatoes, though...
I've been on an Indian food kick lately, Aloo Mutter is my new favorite food (basically just potatoes and peas in a spicy tomato-based sauce)

The one thing I don't like is fake meat, textured soy protein and the like, those things are just, gah!

That's another thing I never really got. If you want to eat meat enough that would would try to recreate it, it's usually my opinion that you shouldn't bother being vegetarian and just eat meat (except maybe if it's for health reasons).

Mina Kobold

2011-03-26, 04:06 PM

That's another thing I never really got. If you want to eat meat enough that would would try to recreate it, it's usually my opinion that you shouldn't bother being vegetarian and just eat meat (except maybe if it's for health reasons).

Some like the taste and texture of eat but consider the consumption of animals immoral.

Sounds pretty understandable to me, I'd like to have a moral substitute for something I consider immoral too.

Like rubber duckies. Vile little creatures.

Anyway, while I will not be going completely vegetarian yet I would like to look into some options for eating more greens, yellows and other vegetarian options.

So I ask you wise and powerful vegetarians of the playground...

*Thunderclap*

What do you put in a vegetarian sandwich? I haven't found many options in the stores so far. :smallsmile:

Ravens_cry

2011-03-26, 04:13 PM

Well, fresh vegetables like tomatoes, lattice and cucumber sliced thin make a nice filling for sandwiches on their own. and a vinaigrette blended with tofu would make a pretty dandy spread. Stir fry some bell peppers and add a little barbecue sauce on whole wheat bread would be yummy sandwich in my opinion. There is fake 'cheese' but that stuff tastes like plastic to me.

BiblioRook

2011-03-26, 06:40 PM

Ugh, I always have a hard time with veggie sandwiches as most vegetarians 'meats' are vegetables I'm not particularly fond of like tomatoes, bell peppers, or mushrooms. But yes, typically if I find myself going that route I basically base it around lettuce and cucumbers. When I can however my absolute favorite thing to use are artichokes, I'm so sad that they often can be hard to find/expensive around here. Back in Ohio there was a sub place that sold roasted artichoke subs , and man they were just the best thing ever (I'm getting hungry just thinking about them), I've been living in California for over a year now and I haven't come close to finding anything close to that (It's noting but avocados down here! Yuck, just another thing I just couldn't find a taste for.)

But also cheese, lots and lots of cheese.

Kneenibble

2011-03-26, 06:58 PM

*appears in a cloud of powdered cardamom*

Alfalfa sprouts are great in a sandwich. I use them in lieux of lettuce for the crunch and fresh flavour, in which departments they are superior.

Aww man this vegan restaurant nearby makes a Southern Fried Tofu sandwich on a kaiser I need a cigarette after.

Fawkes

2011-03-26, 07:08 PM

My sister's a vegetarian, and most of her sandwiches involve avacados. Which, incidentally, can also class up a turkey or tuna sandwich very nicely.

PanNarrans

2011-03-26, 07:11 PM

Yes, I'm a vegetarian. Vegetables happen to be my favourite things to eat, so it's not too hard.

I'm an appalling cook, but I did enjoy a curry I made the other day with carrot, celery, apple and onion.

factotum

2011-03-26, 11:34 PM

What do you put in a vegetarian sandwich? I haven't found many options in the stores so far. :smallsmile:

Assuming you don't mean "vegan", why not use cheese? No meat in that, last time I checked, and you can put as much salad as you like in on top!

Ravens_cry

2011-03-27, 03:43 AM

Another vegan sandwich I like is cucumber with 100% peanut peanut butter, not the peanut flavoured icing Skippy calls peanut butter. That and a little pepper and chilli powder sprinkled on top on whole wheat bread is damn tasty in my opinion.

Corlindale

2011-03-27, 03:39 PM

I went fully vegetarian this new year's, after having been pseudo-vegetarian for almost a year (which basically entailed that I never bought meat for myself, but ate it when it was offered). So I could sort of ease myself into the diet.

It has definetely been a positive change for me - it has made me much more interested in cooking, and I certainly get a lot more veggies than I usually did. The only real difficulty is that it can be hard to find good fast food on occasion, but I guess that could qualify as an advantage as well :smallsmile:

I love all sorts of veggies, though I need to get better at incorporating broccoli and potatoes. Oddly enough I''ve started to eat a lot more rice than usual after becoming a veg, and a lot less pasta. I guess this might be because I find that a lot of vegetarian stew-type dishes go really well with rice, even when they disappoint with pasta.

Here's a good vegetarian recipe that my roommate made last week! It's called something like "Spicy Ethiopian Lentil Stew". Eat it over rice.

That's a great recipe, probably the single best thing I've made with lentils so far (and that's a LOT of different things). And it smells so delicious while you fry it with all the different spices.

It comes from www.theppk.com, which is a pretty nice database for vegan recipes and has a fairly active forum about vegan cooking. I like to cook vegan dishes as much as I can, though I'm not really a vegan (yet).

Alarra

2011-03-27, 03:46 PM

Hey, that's a good question actually. How do other vegetarians handle Thanksgiving?

Not a vegetarian, but for years I was not a fan of turkey, so I would skip it at Thanksgiving. There's tons of non-meat food that you can eat instead, rolls and green beans and squash and sweet potatoes and mashed potatoes and jello salad and stuffing and cranberry sauce and pie....who needs turkey? :smalltongue:

Lyesmith

2011-03-27, 03:47 PM

Any good "romantic" veggie meals one can make?

Ravens_cry

2011-03-27, 04:39 PM

Any good "romantic" veggie meals one can make?
Meatless spaghetti? If you are lacto-vegetarian, you can even keep the cheese.
Some crusty, hot, Italian bread with a nice maragerine or even butter depending on your preferences as vegetarian, and a nice salad on the side. That, some candle light, a nice red or rosé to go with the meal, sounds romantic to me.

Aeolius

2011-03-27, 04:57 PM

Not a vegetarian, but for years I was not a fan of turkey, so I would skip it at Thanksgiving.

This. I am not a vegetarian, but I dislike the taste/smell/texture of poultry. I eat pork barbecue but dislike tenderloin. I love seafood but dislike freshwater fish. Fussy eaters are far more difficult to deal with. ;)

I do enjoy telling people that I am a second-hand vegetarian - I only eat animals that eat vegetables.

Ravens_cry

2011-03-27, 04:59 PM

Do you eat pig? Pigs are omnivores.

Mary Leathert

2011-03-27, 05:08 PM

Any good "romantic" veggie meals one can make?

What is your definition of non-veggie "romantic" meal? Because that would help greatly in thinkin veggie alternatives. But, strawberries are said to be afrodisiacs, so if you can get them for dessert, go for it.

I have been a vegetarian for 3 years now, I think. I have always been quite picky with my food, and I especially disliked fish, chicken and non-minced meat. Because being picky is not socially acceptable for an adult, it was easier just going full-blown vegetarian, which was something I had contemplated for other reasons before. I do eat eggs and dairy products, so I guess the correct term for my diet would be lacto-ovo-vegetarian.

Considering this, my sandwhiches include cream cheese (dunno if this is the correct word, it is unripened cheese that is spread in the bread), because there are several flavors (my favorite is garlic) and butter gets boring in a while and cucumber slices practically always, sometimes lettuce and actual cheese. Recently I discovered the joy of fresh basil, and ruccola is also tasty.

In general, beans, nuts and seeds are my usual choice of protein-source, because I don't like my cheese melted. I do like tofu if it's well-made, for example marinated (on its own it doesn't really have a taste), but I do dislike soy fake-meat in general, because the texture reminds me of meat, and the texture of meat was one of the things I disliked.

Edit: Going with the Italian theme for romantic, pesto pasta.
Pesto sauce is easy to find, and besides that you need just about any type of pasta you'd like, some pine kernels/seeds, and possibly fresh basil, to make it look nice. Some bread on the side won't hurt.

Gaelbert

2011-03-27, 05:29 PM

I went pescetarian a while back. I have a medical condition where I cannot eat anything with wheat, rye, barley, or oats, and I'm (mildly) allergic to milk. I had a few reasons why I went pescetarian, I thought it might be fun, I wasn't a huge fan of meat in the first place (not that I would call myself picky, I'll eat anything but meat was lower on my favourite flavours than most items), and I thought that since I had already given so much up, it wouldn't be too hard to get rid of meat. It hasn't been so far, but I worry about the cost of food once I'm off my university's meal plan. People in here keep talking about veggies being cheaper, but that's not my personal experience.
The only thing I had a hard time giving up was bacon. I did love me some bacon.
My favourite snack is broccoli stir fried with almonds. I eat so much of that it often counts as a meal. And then I make some rice and eat the leftover almonds in brown rice with just a little bit of soy sauce. Delicious.
Also, you can find a can of vegetarian chili, make that, then eat it with cheese and rice. That's another pretty easy one I like.

H Birchgrove

2011-03-27, 06:13 PM

Assuming you don't mean "vegan", why not use cheese? No meat in that, last time I checked, and you can put as much salad as you like in on top!

Production of cheese (at least "hard" cheese) traditionally demands the substance rennet that is taken from calves' fourth stomach chamber; though these days there are substitutes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rennet

Kneenibble

2011-03-27, 06:30 PM

My brother did a food science degree, which involved touring production facilities such as for cheese or other dairy products. All commercially produced cheese uses non-animal synthetic rennet. I would imagine only artisan producers still use the real stuff anymore.

Speaking, at least, of North America.

Lyesmith

2011-03-27, 06:39 PM

nerd-7i+42e

2011-03-27, 07:11 PM

Ravens_cry

2011-03-27, 07:58 PM

Pesto pasta and strawberries. Got it.

A freind of mine has given up meat, and also despises the new diet. I wanted to give them something of a treat. Also, y'know, seduce them.

But any other good recipes for a veggie student living off basically pasta and rice?
Stir fries. A lot of chopping to do, but quick to cook once your done.
Meatless chili in a slow cooker over rice with some corn kernels mixed in at the last minute is a great hearty meal for cold days and it freezes well.
If your not vegan, greek salad is chock full of veggies, but be sure to drink lots of water as all the olives and feta means its pretty high sodium. Your body is good at flushing away excess sodium if you have lots of water.
Spaghetti sauce freezes well.
There are lots of places you can check online for vegetarian recipes.

Nix Nihila

2011-03-27, 09:54 PM

Vegetarian here. Almost entirely vegan, but mostly because I just don't like diary or eggs.

So I ask you wise and powerful vegetarians of the playground...

*Thunderclap*

What do you put in a vegetarian sandwich? I haven't found many options in the stores so far. :smallsmile:

It's all about the veggies. Too many vegetarian and vegan sandwiches just use meat substitutes or cheese (which I don't like) as the substance of the sandwich.

I'm AFC (away from cookbooks) right now, but personally, I enjoy a vegetarian Banh Mi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDwOhvHsnR8) every now and then.

I'll post some more sandwich stuff later if you're interested.

The-Mage-King

2011-03-27, 10:08 PM

Well, you know of the show Barbeque U?

I was flipping channels a while back and landed upon it during a vegitarian episode.

This is a sandvich that I, despite not even liking mushrooms, think looks good. Unfortunately, I cannot find it.

Instead, I throw the host's vegitarian recipies (http://www.bbqu.net/recipes4.html#vegetarian) at you. They are, how you say, bbq related.

Several of which actually seem good to me, one of the more picky vegitarians...

Dusk Eclipse

2011-03-27, 10:20 PM

:smalleek: so many vegetarians in the playground:smalleek:

I like meat too much to give them up completely; but I guess I could cut back on the meat and increase my veggies consumption...

Groundhog

2011-03-27, 11:21 PM

Juggling Goth

2011-03-28, 01:58 AM

I've been vegetarian for sixteen years now. I try to be strict about it. My only downfall is beer (isinglass). When I'm buying it bottled I make an effort to read the label,* but I admit I just drink stuff that comes out of handpumps in pubs.

I get frustrated when the vegetarian options are cheesy cheese with a side-order of cheese. I sort of expect to be eating stuff that's green, not yellow/beige. Also I hate salad. Loathe it. Lettuce is an abomination; mayo makes me retch. I want cooked vegetables; I want legumes. Ah well. It's still better than when they give you tuna.

I also get frustrated with the size of vegetarian portions when eating out. I am not vegetarian for health reasons and I am not dieting. I do karate, roller derby and triathlon. I'm a big eater. And then they give me a smaller portion of something that's less calorie-dense in the first place? And where the meat-eaters get chips, I get a salad? Ugh.

My girlfriend's not vegetarian, but everybody thinks she is. It's kind of funny. She doesn't eat much meat anyway because it's expensive and she got out of the habit when she was an even poorer student. People are always really shocked when she eats a fry-up or something.

* I realised I had achieved complete middle-class hippiedom when drinking Co-operative brand vegan fair-trade organic beer. And I liked it. And then the bottle went in the recycling. Live the stereotype.

H Birchgrove

2011-03-28, 10:28 AM

H Birchgrove

2011-03-28, 10:31 AM

BTW, I'm omnivore. I like both vegetables (both fresh and wok) and meat.

Ichneumon

2011-03-28, 11:38 AM

I've been vegetarian for... 7 years??? I am not sure for how long. I became a vegan almost exactly 3 years ago though. I'm quite enjoying it. The necessity to be creative has really increased the variety of my diet.

About the sandwich question, I usually make sandwiches with combinations of the following:

- cucumber
- tomato
- alfalfa
- sun flower seeds
- olives
- pickles
- different types of onion
- garlic
- vegan pesto
- parsley
- basil
- oregano
- tabasco
- cumin seeds or powder
- black peper

EDIT: And of course
- peanut butter
- mustard

Gaelbert

2011-03-28, 11:44 AM

Since I can't eat breads, my sandwiches are more like salads, but I typically put tuna, hummus, mustard, horseradish, pepperjack cheese, Swiss cheese, olives, bell peppers, and whatever other vegetables I have on. All at once. The tuna/hummus/horseradish mixture is particularly delicious.

Trixie

2011-03-28, 12:21 PM

I'm not a vegetarian, mostly because I don't have my own place yet and so I still have to eat whatever my parents serve for dinner. But I only actually end up eating meat around once a week, and I don't think I'd miss it that much if I did go vegetarian.

Eh, I don't know. Maybe it's because you don't know how tasty a well done meat can be made?

I've had streaks of vegetarianism, but these were mostly for economical reasons (meat where was studying was considerably more expensive than at home...). I can live with vegetarian diet, but eating meat put far less strain on environment and your body, and I honestly can't think of a good dish that either doesn't contain meat/eggs/milk or other animal substances, or can't be made much better with them.

Thanks; I'll try to check how it's done in Europe.

Only the cheapest and worst cheeses (as far as I'm aware) contain non-animal rennet, in fact, cheeses with substitute rennet and/or vegetable oil as a base are lookes at with extreme disdain as 'cheese-like product', in the circles I used to hang with, at least.

Haven't checked in a long time, though, I'll pay attention on my next visit to market. I know, though, that putting some substances in cheese/butter forfeits the producen't right to call them so and is a criminal offence, in fact.

Tyndmyr

2011-03-28, 12:23 PM

have no idea how such a concoction is scientifically possible (I and one of said friends are convinced they're made through a combination of mad science and witchcraft) ...

I'm not even a vegetarian, but anything made like that HAS to be awesome.

Juggling Goth

2011-03-28, 03:05 PM

I can live with vegetarian diet, but eating meat put far less strain on environment and your body

How does that work? I mean, I can see it from the food miles perspective. And a lot of rainforest deforestation is for growing soya, granted. But since we're omnivores, not carnivores, meat-eaters also eat the imported fruit and veg and soya. And the process of raising animals for meat is hardly kind to the environment (I recently read Taras Grescoe's Bottomfeeder: How the fish on our plates is destroying the planet, and promptly freaked the hell out), and uses more resources than if we just ate the plants ourselves. You have to feed and raise the prey animals, and that uses a lot of energy that doesn't get passed on to whatever eats them. It's totally inefficient.

I really don't want to have an argument on the rights and wrongs of a vegetarian diet. It's pointless. And I'm not a teenager anymore and I don't give a damn what anybody else eats. But your statement makes no sense.

I mean, when I finally clear my allotment properly and plant my quinoa and my legumes, I'm pretty sure I can get most of my nutrients from a site five minutes' walk from my house. Everything else I need to eat grows in this climate. How is that harder on the environment than factory-farming animals, or destroying the ocean floor?

The only dietary-health problem I've had is iron-deficient anaemia. And that wasn't because I don't eat meat; it was because a combination of depression and an eating disorder meant I wasn't eating properly at all. But when I pull my head together enough to eat spinach - which is still easier than cooking meat - I can donate blood without problems.

Erloas

2011-03-28, 03:46 PM

I really don't want to have an argument on the rights and wrongs of a vegetarian diet. It's pointless. And I'm not a teenager anymore and I don't give a damn what anybody else eats. But your statement makes no sense.

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that no everyone lives in the same place. Where I live we can raise very few human crops, not more then a few types of grain. And even in a garden setting we are really limited in what we can grow, we simply don't have a long enough growing season to grow most things and even what we can grow we can't get in any number to actually support anyone for a year.
The climate does however work really well for raising cattle, sheep, deer, antelope (and other large game), and fish. Given its not really enough to sustain everyone that lives here but I know a lot of people that get a a decent amount of meat from local sources.

To get an interesting and healthy diet of vegetables and fruits you're looking at hauling food from at least half way across the country (USA that is, its probably at least 1000 miles to get to the closest place that can grow an orange), if not the world.
There is also a huge loss in food globally due to shipping and waste. Things that don't get eaten before they go bad, which is very fast for most fruits and vegetables, much of which can't be frozen like meats can.
And if you go with vegan instead of vegetarian... well there are a lot of products that take a lot more processing and unusual products from around the world to get them to come out right.

What do you think takes more processing, more energy, and longer shipping distances? Regular cow milk or soy or rice milk?

I wouldn't try to claim that an omnivorous diet is better for the environment then a vegetarian one, but I would bet that a healthy, well rounded diet from either wouldn't be too far apart in that regard. Just as their are a lot of people that don't have a healthy omnivorous diet, I think there are also a lot of vegetarians that don't either, they just don't realize it as much and in fact just assume that it is healthy because it is vegetarian. As was the case with someone my brother went to school with, deep fried vegetables are still deep fried. And one of my cousins that had to give up being a vegetarian because he was having mental issues caused by poor nutrition because he didn't know what he was doing. Of course my dad went essentially vegan (except fish) without any issues at all, but he ends up spending more on food then I do because he gets all sorts of unusual things to keep everything well balanced.

Juggling Goth

2011-03-28, 04:00 PM

Oh granted, the whole way we do food is hugely inefficient and food miles are a problem. I'm currently sworn off soya, after hearing it's responsible for about half the destruction of rainforests. Screw that. But the thing is, meat-eaters eat those too. (An omnivore can survive on a vegetarian diet; they can't survive on a carnivorous one, unless they want a severe dose of scurvy and constipation.) And their meat animals eat more than they avoid - a meat-eater might not each much soya, but the cattle they eat certainly do.

The seasonality and locality of food is a big thing. I'm trying to do better with that. (Did you know kiwi fruits can grow in Britain? I certainly didn't! I figured they belonged in nice warm places.) And yeah some climates are better than others. Maybe some time I'll see how long I can live on what I can grow and scavenge. It would be interesting. Nettles and spinach for iron; eggs (from the happy chickens I work with; I'm morally fine with those, since the hens would just smash and eat them otherwise) for the stuff it's much easier to get from animal sources...

Ditto health, but I don't see vegetarianism being any harder on the body. At worst, when people just replace meat with cheese, it's about the same.

I think a thing that bugs me is when people talk about meat as though it's more natural.* Not the way we produce it, it isn't.

*Not that natural really counts for anything. We're wearing clothes,** in houses, using computers to talk on the internet. None of that is natural.

**If you're not, please don't tell me about it.

Erloas

2011-03-28, 04:32 PM

One thing about meat animals is that what they eat is locally grown. A cow can live off plants that almost nothing else can. They don't ship food that far to feed most animals, at least that I know of. Most of the crops grown locally go to feed animals because thats what we can grow decently here. Of course thats going to be different in other parts of the world. I'm sure there are a lot of places where they raise animals that they don't have the space to grow crops so they ship them in.
They can also be fed with a lot of "waste" foods from humans (see the Dirty Jobs where they had huge pig farms using nothing but left overs from Las Vegas).

I forget what the main vitamin deficiencies are that you get from cutting out meat. Its not that you can't get them from vegetables, its just that they are in really low quantities in most common vegetables and you have to go out of your way to find the few vegetables that are high in them to complete a diet.

At this point I can't remember, but I think it was some of staple crops of vegetarian diets, that require a lot more water, pesticides, and fertilizers, then many of the crops used to feed animals. I think many of the feed crops are more usable weight for the same area of farmland and water, pesticides, and fertilizers, compared to what is grown for people, so while a cow might eat 10x as much weight in crops as a person that isn't the same as them having 10x as much environmental impact for the farming that grew it.

The one thing that I always find... annoying about how healthy being a vegetarian is, is that it comes from so many people that really didn't care what they ate and never paid attention at all. Then they become vegetarian and are constantly watching what they eat and by necessity aren't eating out nearly as much and start cooking a lot more then they start loosing weight and feeling better. When in reality if they had paid that much attention to what they ate when they were an omnivore they would have had all the same benefits.

Keld Denar

2011-03-28, 04:50 PM

I forget what the main vitamin deficiencies are that you get from cutting out meat. Its not that you can't get them from vegetables, its just that they are in really low quantities in most common vegetables and you have to go out of your way to find the few vegetables that are high in them to complete a diet.

Iron is the big one, which as JugglingGoth mentioned, is readily available from spinach as well, and also VERY commercially available in suppliment form. Its very important for red blood cell production and health, as low iron content leads to anemia.

Vitamin D, I think, is the other one, which is available throughout most of the world naturally through exposure to sunlight. If people spent more time out in the sunlight instead of furiously mashing their F5 key waiting for other people to post in the GitP forums, they'd get enough Vit D naturally without depending on their diet. Vit D is also available in suppliment form, though, and most multivitamins contain enough of it for healthy subsistance without taking any in in food form.

Knaight

2011-03-28, 04:54 PM

I'm not vegetarian, and am far from vegan. That said, I don't particularly like cooking with meat and have it almost exclusively at restaurants, and even then only have dishes where meat is a minor ingredient.

Concerning the question about sandwiches, I don't eat many, but when I do these ingredients tend to show up:
Brussel Sprouts
Mustard -Real mustard, not vinegar with mustard flavoring.
Egg -Hard boiled, peeled, cut into thin slices.
Olive Paste- Never with mustard, and it isn't widely available. I fell in love with the stuff while in Greece, and have found an inferior version in the U.S.
Lettuce -not iceberg.
Spinach Leaf- not chopped, not frozen.
Cucumbers
Tomatoes -ideally cherry tomatoes, which are oddly cheap locally.
Carrots -long and thin slices provide a nice texture.

That said, there are a lot of very good vegetarian soups, and after you make a batch meals get suddenly easy for about a week. Then there is quiche.

I usually don't use recipes, and quiche is easily done without one. Take your standard issue pie crust -I usually substitute canola or sunflower oil for butter- put it in a pan, get some frozen spinach and mix with onion to taste, stir it all up in a pan with nothing in it until it is thawed, then fill the crust about 1/3 of the way up. Crumble cheese over it next, until the pie crust is about half full, what type isn't hugely important -I would go with feta if you have the option, but most anything works- then mix whisked eggs and milk into a bowl until you get a mid yellow color. Pour over the quiche until only a little cheese pokes up over it, then bake. A convection oven needs 20-30 minutes, a normal oven somewhere around 40.

Quiche is best eaten with hot sauce. I use Cholula, but one could substitute Tabasco. Though calling Tabasco hot sauce is stretching at least one term.

Ravens_cry

2011-03-28, 05:04 PM

Actually (http://www.innvista.com/health/foods/vegetables/spinach.htm), though spinach has iron ,the oxalic acid binds it up so much of it is in a form unusable by the body. Same with the calcium. Spinich is good for you in a variety of ways, but iron and calcium isn't one of them. Vitamin B12 (http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/vitaminb12/) is something you definitely want to take supplements for if you are going vegan.
Yet another reason I am an Omnivore, that, and meat tastes good.

RebelRogue

2011-03-28, 05:10 PM

I do love my meat (and seafood - yumyum!), but I also like a good vegetarian dish once in a while: good food is good food!

So for the sandwich question: one of the most delicious sandwiches I've ever had was ratatouille and cream cheese. Highly recommended (provided you can whip up a good ratatouille, of course, but those aren't hard to make, really). Also, spinach, grilled eggplants and semi-dried tomatoes is a wonderful combination.

As for dishes, my favorite is mushroom risotto, but recently I've begun making miso soup which is really tasty, cheap, quick and easy to make, and even vegan too. I usually make mine with mushrooms, noodles, garlic and a bit of leeks thrown in right before serving. There's a lot variations on that one, though.

Juggling Goth

2011-03-28, 05:49 PM

Actually, though spinach has iron ,the oxalic acid binds it up so much of it is in a form unusable by the body.

Ah well, back to nettles and broccoli. But yeah. Iron's the only real issue, and dark green vegetables plus a source of vitamin C will sort that. (By which I don't mean supplements. Stupidest thing ever. Eat a potato.)

Vitamin D, I think, is the other one, which is available throughout most of the world naturally through exposure to sunlight. If people spent more time out in the sunlight instead of furiously mashing their F5 key waiting for other people to post in the GitP forums, they'd get enough Vit D naturally without depending on their diet. Vit D is also available in suppliment form, though, and most multivitamins contain enough of it for healthy subsistance without taking any in in food form.

It's also added to a bunch of foods, at least in Britain. You have to make a serious effort not to get enough vitamin D.

H Birchgrove

2011-03-28, 09:38 PM

Only the cheapest and worst cheeses (as far as I'm aware) contain non-animal rennet, in fact, cheeses with substitute rennet and/or vegetable oil as a base are lookes at with extreme disdain as 'cheese-like product', in the circles I used to hang with, at least.

Haven't checked in a long time, though, I'll pay attention on my next visit to market. I know, though, that putting some substances in cheese/butter forfeits the producen't right to call them so and is a criminal offence, in fact.

Hmm I thought too that only cheap cheese used ersatz rennet, since it was only on a package of pseudo-cheddar (or something like that) slices for hamburgers I've seen it been noted that it contained non-animal rennet. None of the hard cheeses with traditional names (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Swedish_cheeses ) have I seen note the use of non-animal rennet.

I checked Wikipedia again and it looks like calf-based rennet is used even for "industrially" made cheese:

Traditional method

Dried and cleaned stomachs of young calves are sliced into small pieces and then put into saltwater or whey, together with some vinegar or wine to lower the pH of the solution. After some time (overnight or several days), the solution is filtered. The crude rennet that remains in the filtered solution can then be used to coagulate milk. About 1 gram of this solution can normally coagulate 2 to 4 litres of milk.

This method is still used by some traditional cheese-makers, e.g. in Switzerland, France, Romania, Italy, Sweden and Alp-Sennereien in Austria.

Modern method

Deep-frozen stomachs are milled and put into an enzyme-extracting solution. The crude rennet extract is then activated by adding acid; the enzymes in the stomach are produced in an inactive form and are activated by the stomach acid. The acid is then neutralized and the rennet extract is filtered in several stages and concentrated until reaching a typical potency of about 1:15,000; meaning 1 gram of extract can coagulate 15 kg (15 litres) of milk.

In 1 kg of rennet extract, there are about 0.7 grams of active enzymes – the rest is water and salt and sometimes sodium benzoate, E211, 0.5% - 1% for preservation. Typically, 1 kg of cheese contains about 0.0003 grams of rennet enzymes.

Interestingly, according to the same article, most non-animal rennet is made by mold; only traditional makers use plants such as thistles or nettles to make the enzymes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rennet

Here's what a few vegetarian websites have to say on the subject:

http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/cheese.htm

http://cheese.joyousliving.com/

Other links I found through Google:

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-rennet.htm

http://www.cheesemaking.com/store/pg/106-Rennet-FAQ.html

A Dutch producer of rennet:

http://www.cskfood.com/ingredients/287.html

Groundhog

2011-03-28, 11:18 PM

Eh, I don't know. Maybe it's because you don't know how tasty a well done meat can be made?

Oh I'm not denying the tastiness. It's just that there are drawbacks to me personally consuming meat, and the tastiness isn't enough to outweigh that.

factotum

2011-03-29, 01:29 AM

Hmm I thought too that only cheap cheese used ersatz rennet, since it was only on a package of pseudo-cheddar (or something like that) slices for hamburgers I've seen it been noted that it contained non-animal rennet.

I'm sure I've seen non-cheap cheese which claimed to be "suitable for vegetarians" in the supermarket. Presumably that must use a non-animal source of rennet.

[EDIT] Example: http://www.cathedralcity.co.uk/products/family-favourites.aspx

Juggling Goth

2011-03-29, 01:32 AM

MMMMMMMMM Cathedral City. Love that stuff.

BiblioRook

2011-03-29, 01:33 AM

I'm sure I've seen non-cheap cheese which claimed to be "suitable for vegetarians" in the supermarket. Presumably that must use a non-animal source of rennet.

[EDIT] Example: http://www.cathedralcity.co.uk/products/family-favourites.aspx

I actually would go as far as to say most cheese things tend to be labeled 'vegetarian', at least around here
A few I can imagine could be embellished, but would have a hard time believing that all of them (or even just a majority) would be, that would be like multiple major lawsuits waiting to happen.

Hard just to tell what would qualify as 'non-cheap' though as the only high-end grocery store I really know about is already healthy/vegetarian/vegan friendly. Kinda their whole thing in fact.

Serpentine

2011-03-29, 02:12 AM

Just check the ingredients in your cheese for rennet... :smallconfused:

Another carnivore looking for good veggie recipes, here. Specifically side-dishes, preferably easy. Non-potato and other starches, vegetables. My staples are salads (dark lettuce (not iceburg :smallyuk:), tomato, cucumber, capsicum (possibly multiple colours), carrot, snow peas, fetta cheese, spring onion, red wine vinegar usually) and steamed veggies (beans, carrot, corn, Brussels sprout, frozen peas usually), and they're getting really boring. I sometimes sprinkle parmesan cheese on the steamed veggies, which helps.
I dislike zucchini, squash, eggplant (no matter how much I wish I liked it...) and cooked snow peas.
Any advice?
Also, more specifically, I have great big huge European (?) beans with which I don't know what to do. I have a vision of butter, but that's it.

To contribute a little along these lines: last night I had roast veggies (and turkey breast, but that's not really relevant to the topic at hand...). Instead of my usual cubing, instead cut them all into slices. Slices of potato about 1/2cm thick, carrot just under a centimeter slices, thin crescents of butternut pumpkin... Would've had sweetpotato the same way, but I'd eaten it the day before. Tossed them in olive oil, salt and pepper, and baked on a baking paper-lined tray. Added some halved small tomatoes later. Came out absolutely perfectly P:

RebelRogue

2011-03-29, 07:00 AM

Also, more specifically, I have great big huge European (?) beans with which I don't know what to do. I have a vision of butter, but that's it.
Can you be a bit more specific? Are they dried? In that case, letting them soak in water overnight and using them in caseroles always works.

Themrys

2011-03-29, 08:27 AM

One thing about meat animals is that what they eat is locally grown. A cow can live off plants that almost nothing else can. They don't ship food that far to feed most animals, at least that I know of.

Where do you live, and where do you buy your meat? And where does your meat come from?
Cows can live off grass, but at least in Germany, many cows don't. They're fed with corn and soy and so on. Which, obviously, has to be grown and could just as well be eaten by us directly. (Well, if it wasn't genetically engineered and thus unsafe for human comsumption, that is.)

Ravens_cry

2011-03-29, 09:40 AM

What.
Unless they specifically engineered it to be unfit for human consumption, GE does not mean it is poisonous or anything.

Erloas

2011-03-29, 10:03 AM

Cows can live off grass, but at least in Germany, many cows don't. They're fed with corn and soy and so on. Which, obviously, has to be grown and could just as well be eaten by us directly.

Most everyone around here grows hay to feed to their animals... I think the majority is alfalfa. Its not something that humans can really digest and get anything useful out of it. I don't think its even possible to grow much for corn here, at least I've never seen it outside of small gardens (I believe it requires a lot more water) and I have no idea on soy. I'm pretty sure with corn and soy that they can feed a lot more of the plant to animals then just the kernels/beans that we eat.
As it is the majority of the fields I see (from driving around Arizona, Utah, Idaho, and Wyoming) are planted with grasses of some sort and not corn. Of course I'm not a farmer and don't know what they grow exactly.

H Birchgrove

2011-03-29, 11:30 AM

Kneenibble

2011-03-29, 12:03 PM

So there's a fairly small-scale and high-quality cheese producer close to me that I like; I've contacted them about the source of their rennet, or "microbial enzyme" as the ingredients say.

Since this brand uses that word, and cheaper more commercial brands use "rennet," I don't believe either term indicates the source of the item.

Most everyone around here grows hay to feed to their animals... I think the majority is alfalfa. Its not something that humans can really digest and get anything useful out of it. I don't think its even possible to grow much for corn here, at least I've never seen it outside of small gardens (I believe it requires a lot more water) and I have no idea on soy. I'm pretty sure with corn and soy that they can feed a lot more of the plant to animals then just the kernels/beans that we eat.
As it is the majority of the fields I see (from driving around Arizona, Utah, Idaho, and Wyoming) are planted with grasses of some sort and not corn. Of course I'm not a farmer and don't know what they grow exactly.

Hay alone won't feed a cow sufficiently. That diet will always be supplemented -- be it with oilcake, soy & corn, mangels or other vegetables, or other grosser stuff. When purely grazing, they get a variety of plants that include flowers and seeds and such, but that's why grass-fed beef is more expensive.

nerd-7i+42e

2011-03-29, 02:39 PM

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that no everyone lives in the same place. Where I live we can raise very few human crops, not more then a few types of grain. And even in a garden setting we are really limited in what we can grow, we simply don't have a long enough growing season to grow most things and even what we can grow we can't get in any number to actually support anyone for a year.
The climate does however work really well for raising cattle, sheep, deer, antelope (and other large game), and fish. Given its not really enough to sustain everyone that lives here but I know a lot of people that get a a decent amount of meat from local sources.

If you live in an area like that and stick to locally-grown food, then yes, a more meat-centered diet is probably better than a vegetarian diet. However, most people don't live in such a setting.

To get an interesting and healthy diet of vegetables and fruits you're looking at hauling food from at least half way across the country (USA that is, its probably at least 1000 miles to get to the closest place that can grow an orange), if not the world.

Well, I can't dispute this. That being said, see my last point.

There is also a huge loss in food globally due to shipping and waste. Things that don't get eaten before they go bad, which is very fast for most fruits and vegetables, much of which can't be frozen like meats can.
And if you go with vegan instead of vegetarian... well there are a lot of products that take a lot more processing and unusual products from around the world to get them to come out right.

I'd question this. There are plenty of ways to preserve most foods.

What do you think takes more processing, more energy, and longer shipping distances? Regular cow milk or soy or rice milk?

Take the typical cow, i.e. a factory-farmed cow. She's going to be fed on a diet of corn, which has to be processed. Both foods require processing, and cow milk also has the downside of being from a factory farm. As for the distance, remember that corn and soy grow in the same climate (or at least, they can and typically are made to; I have no idea about their natural environment). But the corn has to take a trip from the processing plant to the factory farm to be turned into milk before it can be shipped to you, and unless you're directly in line with a factory farm and a processing plant, that means a significant detour.

I wouldn't try to claim that an omnivorous diet is better for the environment then a vegetarian one, but I would bet that a healthy, well rounded diet from either wouldn't be too far apart in that regard.

Except that (and I know this has been said before) the omnivorous diet means a vegetarian diet plus meat, so what you're saying is that meat doesn't have a huge impact on the environment, which just isn't true.

One thing about meat animals is that what they eat is locally grown. A cow can live off plants that almost nothing else can. They don't ship food that far to feed most animals, at least that I know of. Most of the crops grown locally go to feed animals because thats what we can grow decently here. Of course thats going to be different in other parts of the world. I'm sure there are a lot of places where they raise animals that they don't have the space to grow crops so they ship them in.

If you go to a farmer's market to buy your meat, then yes, the animals have been locally fed. But if you go to a supermarket, as is done by most people, then no, not really. Factory farms require more corn than can be grown locally, which means that the food for the animals has to be shipped in. Of course, this is not at the same level as getting your blueberries from South America (assuming you don't live in that area), but I suspect that the sheer demand for corn results in significant shipping over the course of the year — blueberries are only so popular, and it takes a lot of corn to feed a cow. That being said, I have no statistics, so I could be wrong.

I'm not saying that meat can't be eaten in an eco-friendly manner; I'm just saying that, by and large, it isn't.

Kneenibble

2011-03-29, 02:41 PM

I got an answer from the cheese company I mentioned.

We use a man-made rennet product (microbial enzyme) that is derived from a complex fermentation process. The microbial enzyme coagulates the milk.

It may also be helpful for you to know that the microbial rennet that we use in all our cheese is Kosher approved.
Please note that this is by no means a low-quality cheese: they make a wide range of snooty sexy stuff. I seem to recall that the person who insinuated that only crap cheeses use artificial rennet was a pretty nasty agitator in the last vegetarian thread too, so I consider this matter settled.

H Birchgrove

2011-03-29, 04:39 PM

I got an answer from the cheese company I mentioned.

Please note that this is by no means a low-quality cheese: they make a wide range of snooty sexy stuff. I seem to recall that the person who insinuated that only crap cheeses use artificial rennet was a pretty nasty agitator in the last vegetarian thread too, so I consider this matter settled.

Thanks.

On the subject of meat and its environmental impact, I like to add that most greenhouse gasses from food production comes from the use of fertilizers (usually from fossil gas or oil) and cattle that produces methane, not from transportation. But there are areas in the world that are better fit to grow fodder than crops for "direct" human consumption.

I still eat meat though. I guess I'm Neutral Evil or Lawful Evil in that regard. :smallsigh:

In the future, there will likely be In vitro meat: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_meat

THAC0

2011-03-29, 08:26 PM

I'd question this. There are plenty of ways to preserve most foods.

Sure there are, but in many cases they aren't done. I live in AK - obviously just about all of the "fresh" produce comes from FAR away, and by the time it gets here the quality is awful and frequently if you do not eat it the day you purchase it, it's gone bad.

Serpentine

2011-03-29, 09:59 PM

Can you be a bit more specific? Are they dried? In that case, letting them soak in water overnight and using them in caseroles always works.No, green and still in the pod.
It's... a really long, pale green pod, about 20-25cm long. Flat, with large-feeling flat beans in it.
(Well, if it wasn't genetically engineered and thus unsafe for human comsumption, that is.)Genetically engineered food is no less safe for human consumption than any other domestic foodstuff, which has almost certainly been just as genetically modified except over a much longer period of time and less directly.

Knaight

2011-03-30, 03:34 AM

Genetically engineered food is no less safe for human consumption than any other domestic foodstuff, which has almost certainly been just as genetically modified except over a much longer period of time and less directly.

Bunch of amateurs. Some of us have schedules to keep.

Eldan

2011-03-30, 03:47 AM

But they did it in a cave! With a box of scraps!

Mina Kobold

2011-03-30, 08:39 AM

Sure there are, but in many cases they aren't done. I live in AK - obviously just about all of the "fresh" produce comes from FAR away, and by the time it gets here the quality is awful and frequently if you do not eat it the day you purchase it, it's gone bad.

That's odd, I live in Scandinavia and a good deal of the oranges and tomatoes (and other stuff possibly, I didn't check) in the malls are from Spain (We can't grow them in winter) and they just taste like a different sort of orange tomato.

We grow most of our stuff in the country itself, though, and 100% organic to boot! :D

No, green and still in the pod.
It's... a really long, pale green pod, about 20-25cm long. Flat, with large-feeling flat beans in it.

Could it be a sugar snap peas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snap_pea)?

If it is then I'd just wash them and eat them raw, pod and all, but that's not advisable if they're not 100% organic. T_T

Gaelbert

2011-03-31, 01:46 AM

Genetically engineered food is no less safe for human consumption than any other domestic foodstuff, which has almost certainly been just as genetically modified except over a much longer period of time and less directly.

Most of the complaints I've heard of GMOs have been less about its impact on humans, and more about its environmental impact and the problems it can cause for farmers.

Serpentine

2011-03-31, 02:05 AM

Could it be a sugar snap peas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snap_pea)?Don't even need to look at that, unless your sugarsnap pea is very different from mine. This is because my beans are:
1. Really, really big, 20-25cm long, while sugar-snap peas are smaller even than snow peas, maybe 5-10cm long.
2. They're beans, not peas. The beans are large and flat, sugar-snap peas are small and round.
...I guess they're the most telling differences. But you couldn't get too much different while still being in the green legume district. Silly :smalltongue:
edit: This, or something like it:
http://s7ondemand5.scene7.com/is/image/ParkSeed/5039?$ps_largedetail$

Most of the complaints I've heard of GMOs have been less about its impact on humans, and more about its environmental impact and the problems it can cause for farmers.Which are potentially legitimate concerns, especially where the GM crops are directly owned and controlled by big businesses.

Kneenibble

2011-03-31, 02:13 AM

SPoD

2011-03-31, 04:13 AM

<---Vegan of 8 years, vegetarian for 5 before that, and no red meat for the 12 years before that. (I started young.)

One of the things that I think people understand the least is how much meat just disgusts me. I never "cheat" because the thought of putting dead flesh into my mouth utterly revolts me. I can't stand the smell of it, either. So while I started for what I guess would be called "moral reasons," the fact is that there's no point to anyone trying to argue me out of veganism anymore. My reactions are entirely involuntary at this point. I can't even eat most of the "fake" meats because they're actually too close to smelling and tasting like meat!

So even if one were to somehow prove that consuming meat was more environmentally-friendly (which I don't think is true, because as mentioned, meat-eaters still need veggies too), it wouldn't change a thing for me. Well, it would get me to buy more local and such, but I already try to. But the truth is, at a certain point, I have to eat. I do my best to minimize the environmental impact, but that's not why I'm a vegan, not really.

For example, I just gave up palm oil from most sources because they're chopping down the rainforests of Borneo to make it. And goddamn it, there's a LOT of food that I really love with palm oil in it. It's more popular than ever because it's healthier than other oils; it's in a lot of otherwise vegan-friendly stuff. But I did what I felt I needed to do to feel OK with myself.

I'm not going to give up oranges because they need to be trucked from Florida up the East Coast, however. Maybe I should, but I'm not going to. I don't have the time (or backyard) necessary to grow all of my own food, or drive out of the city looking for local farmers. Frankly, me driving out to the 'burbs looking for local farmers for a two-person family is a LOT more wasteful than me just buying fruit at the supermarket that I can walk to, since that fruit is going to get delivered whether I buy it or not.

Juggling Goth

2011-03-31, 07:12 AM

The things that I think people understand the least is how much meat just disgusts me. I never "cheat" because the thought of putting dead flesh into my mouth utterly revolts me. I can't stand the smell of it, either. So while I started for what I guess would be called "moral reasons," the fact is that there's no point to anyone trying to argue me out of veganism anymore. My reactions are entirely involuntary at this point. I can't even eat most of the "fake" meats because they're actually too close to smelling and tasting like meat!

Same here. I mean, it's been sixteen years. I know there are long-term vegetarians who go back to meat with no problems, but I don't seem to be one of them. I can always tell when meat's been sneaked into my food - if the stench of the food wasn't a clue, the subsequent stomach cramps would be. And I can't even eat Linda McCartney veggieburgers because the fatty texture reminds me too much of meat. It's just... not something I regard as food any more. I'm no more likely to eat a bacon sandwich than I am some decomposing roadkill.

Erloas

2011-03-31, 09:36 AM

Mina Kobold

2011-03-31, 10:01 AM

One thing to keep in mind is that a lot of foods require specific enzymes to break down and digest and if you don't have those enzymes it will upset your stomach, and if you don't eat something for a while you loose the enzymes to digest it.

Its why beans give people gas... if they don't eat them much. Meats are the same way. Dairy is a big one too, I know when I switched from regular milk to rice milk now I can't go back to regular milk (though I can eat dairy in small amounts). I also can't drink soda any more since I gave it up years ago. They actually make a big deal about it locally in terms of people feeding deer because they tend to feed them apples, oats, and other things that the deer never see in their natural diet (here at least) so its not very good for them.

I thought the deer thing was because their stomachs expect specific types of food in summer and others in winter and as such they are unprepared when given summer food in winter?

Anyway, I do believe you are right but I do wonder how we can try new foods without getting ill and how we can even consume soda in the first place if it requires a specific enzyme. Seems kind of odd to have an enzyme for something that new. ^_^'

Also, my stomach hurt when I had apples until I recently ate several despite this (Tasty tasty apples) and now I don't have any trouble at all, think it may be related? :smallsmile:

Erloas

2011-03-31, 10:39 AM

I thought the deer thing was because their stomachs expect specific types of food in summer and others in winter and as such they are unprepared when given summer food in winter?It is essentially the same thing.

Anyway, I do believe you are right but I do wonder how we can try new foods without getting ill and how we can even consume soda in the first place if it requires a specific enzyme. Seems kind of odd to have an enzyme for something that new. ^_^'
Well everything doesn't require a unique enzyme. Since many foods have the same types of sugars and proteins as long as you are used to something similar then thats close enough.
And I think for the most part you almost always have some of every type you need, just not in the quantity needed. So as long as you change slowly your body has time to adjust the ones you need up to where they need to be.

It is why people very often get stomach issues when traveling when none of the locals have issue with the food.

Keld Denar

2011-03-31, 12:12 PM

I'm not going to give up oranges because they need to be trucked from Florida up the East Coast, however. Maybe I should, but I'm not going to. I don't have the time (or backyard) necessary to grow all of my own food, or drive out of the city looking for local farmers. Frankly, me driving out to the 'burbs looking for local farmers for a two-person family is a LOT more wasteful than me just buying fruit at the supermarket that I can walk to, since that fruit is going to get delivered whether I buy it or not.

This is the part I don't understand from the movement. I mean, I appreciate a persons attempt to minimize their impact on the world around them, I try not to be wasteful myself, but everything we do has an impact. Where do you then draw the line between what is necessary and what is "immoral"? You literally can't avoid plastics at this day in age. Even if you use reusable grocery sacks and buy your free trade coffee in biodegradable cups, there is still plastic around in EVERYTHING. Plastic that comes from oil. Oil which is harvested from the ground. Ground that living creatures live on. Living creatures that are mildly to dramatically inconvenienced by the presence of that oil reclaimation process. Some of which die horrible, painful, and uncomfortable deaths at the hands of that environmental impact. While I know plenty of vegans who minimize their use of plastic, I don't know a single one who completely cuts it out of their life. And thats just one basic feedstock. There are many others. Paper, electricity, natural and synthetic fibers for clothing, mineral reclaimation and refining for steel for buildings and bridges and tools, etc. Heck, I'd wager that a single steel mill has a larger environmental impact than a dozen or more factory farms, yet I don't know a single vegan who doesn't use metal tools.

I mean, even if you are driving a Prius or riding a bicycle, or heck, even wearing SHOES, you are impacting the world around you negatively. I just don't see how this is any different than responsible consumption of an animal, use of its body parts for tools or clothing, or similar practices. I mean, I do what I can to reduce waste and recycle and compost and whatnot like a good pacific northwesterner should, but I'm not going to not consume something based on its impact, because EVERYTHING has an impact. EVERYTHING. How do you draw the line then?

H Birchgrove

2011-03-31, 12:36 PM

I don't get why food producers in Europe and USA use palm oil. Don't we have enough canola and sunflower oil?

factotum

2011-03-31, 03:30 PM

I mean, even if you are driving a Prius

Actually, driving a Prius means you might be doing less damage to the environment during day-to-day usage, but you did a heck of a lot MORE damage to it just by buying the thing in the first place--those batteries require an awful lot of nasty materials in their construction, and they're shipped halfway around the world from where they're made to where the car is built, too!

Ravens_cry

2011-03-31, 04:03 PM

I don't get why food producers in Europe and USA use palm oil. Don't we have enough canola and sunflower oil?
Palm oil is semi solid at room temperature, canola and safflower oil are not. Also, non-saturated oils go rancid faster.

Juggling Goth

2011-03-31, 05:12 PM

EVERYTHING has an impact. EVERYTHING. How do you draw the line then?

Well, feel free to yell "cop out!", but it's different for everybody. It's like... what causes do I give time and money to? The ones I hear about first, and the ones that appeal to my particular circumstances. Else I'd be skint and burnt-out within a week. Most people's choices are to some degree arbitrary: I say I can live without meat, so I should, but I can also live without that non-fair-trade chocolate bar, and I don't. *shrug* Maybe there are people out there who're totally rational and consistent and always make the choice that harms the fewest, but I'm not one and I've never met one.

It's okay to say we're all fallible and arbitrary, as long as you don't use it as an excuse to do nothing at all. I mean, the perfection fallacy is rubbish ("it won't solve everything so you might as well not bother"). Don't ask if it's perfect; just ask if it's better than nothing.

But, you know, if a thread is called "Veggies in the playground", you gotta expect it to be full of people who've drawn the line in a particular place :)

Serpentine

2011-03-31, 10:01 PM

By the sound of it, Serpentinnia, you have scarlet runner beans?

If so they're probably too fibrous to eat raw and should be chopped small and sauteed or put in a soup or stew. I'm thinking the green element in a spicy moong dal.Don't think they're scarlet runner beans, but I tried the sautee thing. It was... eh. Don't think I cooked it at the right temperature etc. I did discover, though, that I quite like browned Brussels sprouts...

Keld: it is possible to aim to lessen your environmental footprint without trying to eliminate it completely - which, as you've pointed out, is impossible. It's like telling someone they shouldn't bother giving any money to charity if they're only gonna give $10 instead of selling everything they own and handing it all over. Something is better than nothing, and you shouldn't disparage someone just because they're only doing something instead of everything.

nerd-7i+42e

2011-04-01, 01:56 PM

Can someone explain something to me? I'm not looking to start a debate about this, I've just never understood it and I'd like to.

Why do people choose to go vegan? I understand vegetarianism (heck, I've been a vegetarian for four and a half years), but I can't say the same about veganism, since producing milk and eggs and whatnot doesn't harm the animal.

Ravens_cry

2011-04-01, 02:23 PM

Eh, it's just the circle of life to me. I will be eaten someday, so why not eat in turn. It's all life. Some people choose to draw the line at meat, sometimes not even all kinds of meat, I choose to draw it at my fellow species. It's equally arbitrary. I love my veggies, I just like my meat too.

Nix Nihila

2011-04-01, 02:26 PM

Well, there's a multitude of reasons for going vegan. Some people find it unethical to support industries which treat their animals cruelly, other people do it for health reasons, and some people find the idea of eating eggs, milk, etc. to be disgusting. There are also religious groups which advocate veganism.

EDIT: @^ I don't want to be rude here, and I don't have a problem with you choosing to eat meat, but isn't that sort of an appeal to nature? Also, there is a difference between being raised for the express purpose of being eaten, and dying of unrelated causes, and then being eaten, assuming that's what you meant.

BiblioRook

2011-04-01, 03:00 PM

Not at all saying that it's at this point yet, or necessarily even close, but just a friendly reminder and warning that we don't want to get too heavy in this thread (on way or another). Particularity in the way of religious/political reasons behind being vegetarian or vegan.

Same goes for questioning the practices of others. Some casual inquiry should be fine, but please just be mindful that that's the sort of thing that can easily take an unexpected turn for the worst.

Ravens_cry

2011-04-01, 03:13 PM

BiblioRook

2011-04-01, 03:28 PM

Probably the most vegetarian home-cooked thing I've been able to do was just load up instant ramen with stuff like tofu and carrots.

Fun fact: Apparently while Maruchan's Oriental ramen isn't vegetarian, Top Ramen's is completely vegan. Useful to know for vegetarians on the cheap, while 'vegetable' flavored instant ramen is out there, it's kinda rare. (Oh, and mushroom ramen, but I tried it once and couldn't stand it)

H Birchgrove

2011-04-01, 06:35 PM

Palm oil is semi solid at room temperature, canola and safflower oil are not. Also, non-saturated oils go rancid faster.

I see, thanks!

onthetown

2011-04-01, 06:59 PM

I'm awful at eating veggies in general -- I'm all meat and starches -- so every once in awhile I'll turn into a vegetarian for a few weeks to a month. So I just go to all plants and starches.

I know it probably doesn't help much, but it feels good to do it for a few weeks... I just don't think I could do it year-round. I love me some steak and gravy.

I have to applaud the people who become vegetarians out of choice, it's not easy. Kudos.

Edit: Also, I'm allergic to shellfish, I don't like seafood in general, and I'm lactose intolerant to the point of very severe pain from more than a cup of anything involving lactase. And I don't like the taste of milk anyway, or soy milk, or even most other dairy products... So basically, I'm stuck with veggies/fruits, meats, and starches. And I'm picky. Hence the mostly meat and starches diet. :smallamused: So if you've got any suggestions for balanced meals around that, you're a god.

druid91

2011-04-01, 07:07 PM

I'm an artificialvore.

If it isn't man-made in some way shape or form I usually don't want it.

Unfortunately I currently have my food purchased by someone who hates artificial additives. I am in pain. Great pain.:smallfrown::smallwink:

Nix Nihila

2011-04-01, 07:30 PM

Whether it is by worms or wolves, I am going to get eaten in the end. And, for all I know, it might not be an unrelated cause, there be bears in this part of the world. Yes, it's partly an appeal to nature, but it just shows you can spin anything any way you like. Like I said, its arbitrary, you have your line and I have mine.
Now lets get back to discussing vegetarian chili recipes and tofu marinades. I find that smoked sesame oil, ginger, cumin seed, garlic and some spiced rice vinegar is pretty delectable.

Fair enough.

As for tofu, I find that marinating it in a mixture of balsamic vinegar, olive oil, white wine, tamari, garlic and basil is surprisingly good. Although when I make tofu I usually go with a marinade of tamari, sesame oil, lime juice, orange juice and a bit of orange zest. Oh, and a sprinkle of pepper.

factotum

2011-04-02, 01:05 AM

Don't think they're scarlet runner beans, but I tried the sautee thing. It was... eh. Don't think I cooked it at the right temperature etc. I did discover, though, that I quite like browned Brussels sprouts...

Are they possibly broad beans? Been years since I had them, but that's the only thing I can think of that might fit the bill.

Erloas

2011-04-02, 01:13 AM

. And I don't like the taste of milk anyway, or soy milk, or even most other dairy products... So basically, I'm stuck with veggies/fruits, meats, and starches. And I'm picky. Hence the mostly meat and starches diet. So if you've got any suggestions for balanced meals around that, you're a god.

You might check out rice milk (drink, they don't actually call it milk but thats what its closest to). I don't like Soy milk at all either, its too thick and tastes a bit weird. I also never really liked regular milk. Almond milk I haven't had much. But I've found that I do like rice milk.

As for getting more vegetables, I usually just mix them in with whatever I'm making even if it doesn't traditionally have much. Have to know what you are making to figure out how to mix more vegetables into it.

BiblioRook

2011-05-05, 02:28 PM

I have a question for people. Is there anything you would break your vegetarianism for? I don't necessarily mean like you have a favorate food with meat in it that you will still eat despite being a vegetarian (though maybe that's also true), more like, well for personal example I really like trying new things and/or cultural stuff. I don't really want something like a dietary restriction keeping me from experiencing new things, so if I get the opportunity to try something really different that I've never had before I will usually still eat some even if it has meat in it. However, even then I usually try to keep it to a minimum, like usually just a bite to taste then passing it along to someone else to finish.

Just yesterday I was talking with a classmate about how you can buy things like scorpion kabobs when he was in China. As I kid I always wanted to know what it would be like to eat a bug (one properly prepared as food), so that would be hard for me to pass up.

nerd-7i+42e

2011-05-05, 04:31 PM

Pretty much the only foreseeable reason I might break my vegetarianism is a life-or-death situation. If I'm stuck at the bottom of a well with only a hamburger, I'll eat the burger. I'll wait for help to come, and I don't think I'll be very happy doing it, but it will be my last resort.

Ezeze

2011-05-05, 04:39 PM

Well I am a vegetarian primarily for environmental reasons, with a few health reasons on the side.

I am less interested in animal rights and more interested in the fact that American factory farms produce more waste and consume more water than America's entire human population.

So if I were in say, a less-developed nation, where meat was rare and there weren't huge resource-gobbling factory farms, or if there were a huge over-hall of the American meat industry during my life time, I'd probably rejoin the ranks of the omnivores :smallsmile:

fizzybobnewt

2011-05-05, 09:07 PM

My 9-year-old sister once tried to be vegetarian. We knew it wouldn't last, especially when she began making loopholes to allow chicken. :smallbiggrin:
Me, I could never be a vegetarian. Meat is my favorite non-dessert food.

Agamid

2011-05-05, 11:39 PM

Grandmother: "We're having steak for dinner, but we know you don't eat meat... so we made you some chicken instead."

got pretty much the same at EVERY school camp i ever went to throughout school... and then my first night back in Brissy my boyfriend's step mother tried to feed me chicken...
what is it about chicken that makes people think it's not meat?
I think even if i were to start eating meat again then it wouldn't be chicken, it's up there with my least favourite foods ever.

How/why did i become vegetarian? about 14 years ago i stopped eating food altogether, just before i did though i craved meat something serious a ate a lot of it. when i started eating again about a year later i couldn't stomach meat, and after a while i found i didn't miss it at all, so i haven't since.
actually don't think of it as food anymore. used to work in a bakery and was always kind of surprised with a customer asked for a product that had meat it in.
I date meat eaters and it doesn't bother me when they eat meat in front of me but i do ask for a mouth rinse then before thy kiss me.

also, don't eat honey. but that's because i go into anaphylactic shock if i do. could never give up dairy though!

factotum

2011-05-06, 01:32 AM

about 14 years ago i stopped eating food altogether, just before i did though i craved meat something serious a ate a lot of it. when i started eating again about a year later i couldn't stomach meat

Er, what? You survived for a whole year without eating ANYTHING AT ALL? :smallconfused:

Knaight

2011-05-06, 02:15 AM

Er, what? You survived for a whole year without eating ANYTHING AT ALL? :smallconfused:

This can be done. It usually involves being on an IV all year, and pretty much sucks (IVs are not fun), but it can be done. My guess would be that that happened.

Serpentine

2011-05-06, 04:06 AM

Or hyperbole was involved.
I'm guessing that one.

Morph Bark

2011-05-06, 04:29 AM

Not a vegetarian myself, but at least I know what to look out for if I ever plan any dinners with friends, considering I know three girls who are vegetarian, one being my best friend's girlfriend.

I've only really consciously thought of eating specifically vegetarian twice. The first time was on a Christmas dinner date with one of the previously mentioned girls (I figured hey, seems like the best time to try - whaddaya know, all vegetarian dishes there included goat cheese, which I loathe), the second was at the university cafeteria where I ordered the vegetarian dish because it was bigger. I have to say I am still boggled over the latter as they added gravy (I know there are non-meat gravy types, but I'm pretty sure this wasn't one).

Erloas

2011-05-06, 09:24 AM

I think the chicken thing comes from the fact that, for various reasons, a number of people (have to) give up red meats, but can still have other types of meats. That was a lot more common 15-40 years ago when they were finding out more about cardiovascular disease but vegetarianism was all but unheard of.

Anuan

2011-05-06, 10:05 AM

I went out with a vegetarian from a family of vegetarians, and we lived together for about two years. From this experience, I discovered;

-Certain types of tofu are damn tasty

-Red lentils are superior to beef mince in pasta sauces

-Vegetarian bacon-emulation products fail in every category, including the "This doesn't taste like what it's replacing but it's tasty" category. It's like eating a forkful of evil, hatred, death and sadness.

-Vegetarians get asked a lot of stupid, stupid questions.

Also, I was cooking bacon one day, and my ex, who has never eaten bacon in her life, started rambling like "That smells really good. It makes me want eggs. I really want eggs. Is that normal? Should I want eggs?"

Kain05

2011-05-07, 08:59 AM

I love my veggies, I was even a vegetarian for about two years the first time, then for almost three years the second time, I was close to vegan that time with the exception of fish.

I respect a vegetarians resolve and choices, and I do agree and understand their environmental reasons, but I still question the supposed health benefits. As omnivores we have evolved to thrive on a mixed diet, I personally think that a varied and balanced diet that is free of sugar and other processed/fake foods (such as margarine, vegatable oils, soda, processed flour based, legumes) are better for you overall.

I do agree that most vegetarian diets are far healthier than the standard american diet though, so if that is the comparison then hey, ignore the above.

I personally think that our subsidies should go to growing better vegetables than corn, such as spinach, brocolli etc. Corn if very easy to grow in the states as it is and it is probably the worst vegetable for you (it actually isn't a vegetable anyways, it's a grain that is very hard for the human body to digest other than extracting the sugars).

Agamid

2011-05-08, 09:38 AM

Er, what? You survived for a whole year without eating ANYTHING AT ALL? :smallconfused:

it's called a nasogastric tube.

Ezeze

2011-05-08, 05:19 PM

If you got really nauseous on the nasogastric tube the fact that you no longer crave meat might be a result of conditioned taste aversion.

That is why they suggest you not eat your favorite foods before chemotherapy, even if you need to gain weight (which is not uncommon with some cancers) because you might stop enjoying them.

factotum

2011-05-09, 01:14 AM

it's called a nasogastric tube.

Oops. Sounds extremely unpleasant--are you fully recovered from whatever problem you had that required such an extreme treatment?

MartytheBioGuy

2011-05-10, 01:52 PM

I'm a vegetarian, have been for about 2 1/2 years now. My reason is dietary, that is, I've cut out what I overeat. If I eat meat, I eat gross greasy meats that make me fat and make me feel sick, so in order to prevent myself form going on that track, I've simply cut all meat from my diet. And since I figure anything worth doing is worth doing right, I've become a "real" vegetarian who avoids things like gelatin etc, though I'm never rude about it, and if there's truly no vegetarian option, I play along nicely enough.

And since becoming a vegetarian, and since I'm a biology person, I've studied a lot of the things about animal rights, properly balanced non-meat diets, etc. I've decided that being on a vegetarian diet is the best thing for me, and while I would heartily encourage others to try it, I'm not pushy.

Ecologically, hunted meat is a good thing. I hope everyone realizes that at least to a certain point, hunting is good. This is one thing I get a bit heated about, but some species need their populations culled for their own good, and hunters are often the best conservationists. After all, they want to keep hunting, right?

Keld Denar

2011-05-10, 02:17 PM

hunters are often the best conservationists. After all, they want to keep hunting, right?
This...100 times this.

BiblioRook

2011-05-10, 02:19 PM

My reason is dietary, that is, I've cut out what I overeat. If I eat meat, I eat gross greasy meats that make me fat and make me feel sick, so in order to prevent myself form going on that track, I've simply cut all meat from my diet.

This has largely been my reason for going into vegetarianism too. Not that I'm really all that concerned with my health, I just really despise Fast Food. However, with the unfortunate thriftiness that comes with being a poor college student, such inexpensive fast food options become hard to pass up, so I took a measure to remove it as an option.
It has the double benefit as working as an excuse to get friends to go to non-fast food restaurants when we hang out too, because otherwise that would be all they would eat. 9_9
(Not that it stops them entirely...)

Ravens_cry

2011-05-11, 01:51 AM

This...100 times this.
In fact, a lot of early conservation efforts in the first half of the 20th century and earlier centred around this logic. Find old encyclopaedias and read the articles about Forestry and Conservation, it makes for an interesting read.
I've never been into hunting myself, but as long as its done sustainably, I don't see the harm. Nothing in the wild dies of old age anyway.

Morph Bark

2011-05-11, 05:25 AM

In fact, a lot of early conservation efforts in the first half of the 20th century and earlier centred around this logic. Find old encyclopaedias and read the articles about Forestry and Conservation, it makes for an interesting read.
I've never been into hunting myself, but as long as its done sustainably, I don't see the harm. Nothing in the wild dies of old age anyway.

Exactly. My neighbour is a hunter (and truck driver and taxidermist) and he prettymuch follows this as well.

Serpentine

2011-05-11, 05:40 AM

(and truck driver and taxidermist)If it weren't so bad ecologically, I'd assume these two are very related :smallamused:
(although my ecology lecturers said there's a competition amongst such people to see who can eat the most species that's largely based on roadkill...)

ShortOne

2011-05-11, 08:37 PM

I've been a vegetarian for six or seven years now. I don't have ethical issues with meat, I just can't stand the texture and sometimes smell of meat and fish. Coupled with my other dietary restrictions, finding food can be tricky. :smallconfused:

Raistlin1040

2011-05-12, 02:14 AM

I'm not a vegetarian, but I am dating one. However, I eat very little red meat and NO seafood. That said, I do eat a lot of poultry. I have no problems eating meat, but I do have a problem with factory farming and slaughterhouses, hence I try to eat organic or humanely raised meat as often as possible. However, I do not understand vegetarians who eat fish. If it's just because you don't like the taste of meat, why use the vegetarian label? If you have moral problems with meat, why do you eat fish? I generally advise the label Pescetarian, given that it's far more accurate than vegetarian for such people.

BiblioRook

2011-05-12, 05:43 AM

However, I do not understand vegetarians who eat fish. If it's just because you don't like the taste of meat, why use the vegetarian label? If you have moral problems with meat, why do you eat fish? I generally advise the label Pescetarian, given that it's far more accurate than vegetarian for such people.

I know what you mean, it baffles and annoys me as well, but more because I'm rather tetchy on using words properly.
Best I can figure is the 'vegetarian' as a label holds more weight with people then 'pescetarian' and they want people to take them 'seriously'. I mean, most people probably wouldn't even know what a 'pescetarian' even is, out of context...

The-Mage-King

2011-05-12, 05:13 PM

It's because they're trying to troll those of us who are serious vegitarians. That's my theory, and I'm sticking to it.

Morph Bark

2011-05-12, 05:18 PM

If it weren't so bad ecologically, I'd assume these two are very related :smallamused:
(although my ecology lecturers said there's a competition amongst such people to see who can eat the most species that's largely based on roadkill...)

:smalltongue: Trust me, we wouldn't accept any meat from him if he ate roadkill.

I do think it smells awful while cooking though. If we had it a lot more often I prolly would end up refusing to eat at home.

On that note, I do have to say that when I eat at the campus restaurant, I usually eat vegetarian, because it looks better or you get more. It's done me well so far, but today I found the vegetarian meat replacement to be positively yucky-looking.

I've been a vegetarian for six or seven years now. I don't have ethical issues with meat, I just can't stand the texture and sometimes smell of meat and fish. Coupled with my other dietary restrictions, finding food can be tricky. :smallconfused:

You're not a diabetic and are allergic to peanuts too, are you?!

The-Mage-King

2011-05-12, 08:20 PM

On that note, I do have to say that when I eat at the campus restaurant, I usually eat vegetarian, because it looks better or you get more. It's done me well so far, but today I found the vegetarian meat replacement to be positively yucky-looking.

THEN DON'T GET IT!

Sorry. I refrain from eating meat-like food, because... It's insulting to me to have companies say "oh, here's something that's just like meat, because you won't eat meat, and everyone likes meat" and try to push that on vegitarians.

Nix Nihila

2011-05-12, 08:33 PM

Yeah, although I do use tofu and seitan occasionally, I'm not a fan of meat substitutes. I much prefer meals that focus on making the veggies good than meals that just throw in a meat substitute (or, just as bad, meals that take a recipe containing meat, and just remove the meat).

Rawhide

2011-05-12, 08:38 PM

Lord of the Fries.

Seriously.

I told someone who had eaten there at the last Australian meet-up in Brisbane that their beef burgers were 100% vegetarian and they didn't believe me. As far as I know though, they only exist in Melbourne.

Knaight

2011-05-12, 09:56 PM

THEN DON'T GET IT!

Sorry. I refrain from eating meat-like food, because... It's insulting to me to have companies say "oh, here's something that's just like meat, because you won't eat meat, and everyone likes meat" and try to push that on vegitarians.

How is this insulting? Plenty of people become vegetarians because of animal rights type stuff, and faux meat that doesn't involve animals works just as well. Moreover, as someone who does eat meat, though infrequently many of the "meat substitutes" are completely delicious. A veggie burger tastes different than an actual burger, and sometimes I prefer it, and extra firm tofu is largely seen as a meat substitute, and it is both healthier and less of a pain to cook, as well as tasting different enough to warrant being seen as its own entity and not just a substitute.

Really, its not "Here's something that looks like meat, because you won't eat meat, and everyone likes meat", its "This is sort of like meat, if you have meat cravings it works, otherwise it has its own flavors, and you don't have to do much cooking."

Gaelbert

2011-05-12, 10:28 PM

I know what you mean, it baffles and annoys me as well, but more because I'm rather tetchy on using words properly.
Best I can figure is the 'vegetarian' as a label holds more weight with people then 'pescetarian' and they want people to take them 'seriously'. I mean, most people probably wouldn't even know what a 'pescetarian' even is, out of context...

I use vegetarian instead of pescetarian because whenever I don't, I have to take a long time to explain the exact difference and why I'll eat fish. And when I want to eat, I want to eat. I don't want to talk to someone about what I eat.
I don't eat much fish either, so there's not a huge difference at all.

You're not a diabetic and are allergic to peanuts too, are you?!

Diabetes isn't a food restriction.

Serpentine

2011-05-12, 10:28 PM

Not all vegetarians don't like the taste of meat...

unosarta

2011-05-12, 10:30 PM

(or, just as bad, meals that take a recipe containing meat, and just remove the meat).

Excuse me for a moment while I say that this is not, and probably never will be, entirely true. Go make some Curry Rice (http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2010/06/how-to-make-japanese-curry-rice-from-scratch-recipe.html) without the meat. Seriously. It is possibly my favorite dish ever (Japanese curry is good in general, and this is pretty much the Japanese curry recipe). I usually make it with extra hot pepper flakes and garlic chili sauce.

At a school portfolio event, I had made it for me and my friend's mom, who is vegan. We thought we would be the only ones eating it, since it was advertised and made vegan, and it had a little sign saying extra spicy. It was entirely eaten in ~15 minutes. I only got one plateful, and only that because I put the dish out.

It was weird. We were talking about food in my LGBT support group today, and someone was talking about how they hate when companies mis-advertise food products, the specific example being a vegetarian lasagna. The coordinator of the group turned to the rest of us and said "how many people in here are vegetarian?" Five or six people, including me, raised our hands, and several of my friends turned to me and were like, "[Unosarta], you're a vegetarian!?" like it was a super big surprise. I dunno, it was weird in retrospect.

Coidzor

2011-05-12, 10:32 PM

I told someone who had eaten there at the last Australian meet-up in Brisbane that their beef burgers were 100% vegetarian and they didn't believe me. As far as I know though, they only exist in Melbourne.

:smallconfused: That's rather curious they're able to do that.

Not all vegetarians don't like the taste of meat...

Well, you know ascetics. :smallwink:

Excuse me for a moment while I say that this is not, and probably never will be, entirely true. Go make some Curry Rice (http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2010/06/how-to-make-japanese-curry-rice-from-scratch-recipe.html)

I imagine she was referring to a dish that depended upon meat for its identity. This example you've brought up is a curry and rice dish first and foremost... Heck it's the name of the dish even when there's meat in there. So it's quite arguable that it's a dish where meat is optional in the first place rather than a fundamental part of the dish.

>_> <_<

unosarta

2011-05-12, 11:02 PM

I imagine he was referring to a dish that depended upon meat for its identity. This example you've brought up is a curry and rice dish first and foremost... Heck it's the name of the dish even when there's meat in there. So it's quite arguable that it's a dish where meat is optional in the first place rather than a fundamental part of the dish.

That... doesn't appear to be what she is saying at all. Specifically, the only words mentioning the removal of meat are the ones I quoted, the only other maybe relevant parts being about the superfluous addition of meat substitutes in the previous sentence... which don't seem to have anything to do with that.

And for Curry Rice, every single time I have had it and I have not made it, it has had meat. It didn't make it bad, but that's what it is. And, according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_curry), meat-based Japanese curry is actually the standard in Japan (mentioned in the overview section, in the last paragraph, in case you don't want to read the whole article).

Serpentine

2011-05-12, 11:05 PM

My family spaghetti bolognese recipe would probably still be quite delicious with the meat replaced with, say, a whole lotta beans, maybe some sort of protein substitute like tofu or that other thing people say is better. Just something to fill it out. Not the same, but still good.

factotum

2011-05-13, 01:30 AM

I've had a chili con carne without the beef before--that actually works OK, because the red kidney beans are firm enough to provide texture and most of the flavour is coming from the sauce anyway!

Ravens_cry

2011-05-13, 04:27 AM

I've had a chili con carne without the beef before--that actually works OK, because the red kidney beans are firm enough to provide texture and most of the flavour is coming from the sauce anyway!

My mother makes an awesome kidney bean chilli with no meat, not even fake meat. That and some coleslaw, rice, and corn and you got an awesome, and nutritious, meal, real stick to your ribs stuff.

Anuan

2011-05-13, 05:18 AM

That'd be Chilli sans carne, factotum.

Serpentine

2011-05-13, 05:20 AM

Chilli con veg?

factotum

2011-05-13, 06:15 AM

Yeah, but if I'd said I'd had a chili con no-one would know what I meant. :smallwink:

Nix Nihila

2011-05-13, 07:26 AM

Excuse me for a moment while I say that this is not, and probably never will be, entirely true.

Certainly there are some good meals like this, what I mean is when people learn I'm a vegetarian, so they make me a roast beef sandwich without the roast beef... Mostly I'm talking about meals in which the meat is the heart of the dish.

It was a generalization based on my experience, not a rule of course.

EDIT: Pretty much what Coidzor was saying.

Morph Bark

2011-05-13, 08:35 AM

THEN DON'T GET IT!

Sorry. I refrain from eating meat-like food, because... It's insulting to me to have companies say "oh, here's something that's just like meat, because you won't eat meat, and everyone likes meat" and try to push that on vegitarians.

I of course did not get it yesterday. For some reason it looked like junk food, which it usually doesn't at the campus restaurant.

I don't know what the meat replacement was made of either way. Years back we often had something called "valess", which is made out of dairy products by the company my dad works for. It doesn't really taste like meat and the flavour is much softer - but that should be obvious with what it is made of.

I positively hate tofu though. Does tofu fall under the meat replacements that you despire, TMK? If so, I presume you stick to fruits, vegetables, wheats and potatoes?

Diabetes isn't a food restriction.

Knowing several diabetics, I know it is.

unosarta

2011-05-13, 08:38 AM

Certainly there are some good meals like this, what I mean is when people learn I'm a vegetarian, so they make me a roast beef sandwich without the roast beef... Mostly I'm talking about meals in which the meat is the heart of the dish.

It was a generalization based on my experience, not a rule of course.

EDIT: Pretty much what Coidzor was saying.

Oh, okay. That wasn't really apparent from what you were saying, but I understand now. Thanks for clarifying.

And yeah, I pretty much always cook for myself, so I never really have to deal with that, but I can definitely see how that would be annoying. :smallfrown:

Nix Nihila

2011-05-13, 10:56 AM

No problem, I'm not the most articulate when it comes to forum posts.

I mostly cook for myself too, so it isn't a huge problem, but it is still somewhat annoying.

BiblioRook

2011-05-13, 12:13 PM

And for Curry Rice, every single time I have had it and I have not made it, it has had meat. It didn't make it bad, but that's what it is. And, according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_curry), meat-based Japanese curry is actually the standard in Japan (mentioned in the overview section, in the last paragraph, in case you don't want to read the whole article).

Thankfully most places around here are pretty okay with a meat-free Curry Rice and ether clearly label such if not the case or make you ask for meat on the side if you wanted it, thank goodness too as it's currently one of my favorite foods...
In fact, last night was the first time ever that meat was kinda sneaked in on me... but in it's defense it also probably was more 'authentic' them most of the curry rice I eat.

Coidzor

2011-05-13, 12:15 PM

That'd be Chilli sanssin carne, factotum.

FTFY. :smallwink:

Knaight

2011-05-13, 02:10 PM

FTFY. :smallwink:

Gracias. "Chili sans carne" es un ejemplo de un idioma major de necessitamos.

unosarta

2011-05-13, 06:09 PM

Thankfully most places around here are pretty okay with a meat-free Curry Rice and ether clearly label such if not the case or make you ask for meat on the side if you wanted it, thank goodness too as it's currently one of my favorite foods...
In fact, last night was the first time ever that meat was kinda sneaked in on me... but in it's defense it also probably was more 'authentic' them most of the curry rice I eat.

Seriously. Delicious stuff. Ugh, now I want some. :smallfrown:

Anyway; I have noticed that most of the people I know who are vegetarian are also LGBT. Has anyone else noticed a similar trend, or is this just me?

MartytheBioGuy

2011-05-14, 12:11 AM

Anyway; I have noticed that most of the people I know who are vegetarian are also LGBT. Has anyone else noticed a similar trend, or is this just me?

Well, I'm straight, and I'm a veggie. But I have noticed that a lot of LGBT people are veggies. I'd say that the correlation goes more that way than to say a most veggies are LGBT.

Serpentine

2011-05-14, 12:50 AM

Anyway; I have noticed that most of the people I know who are vegetarian are also LGBT. Has anyone else noticed a similar trend, or is this just me?Most of the vegetarians I know are hipsters.

The-Mage-King

2011-05-14, 08:05 AM

How is this insulting? Plenty of people become vegetarians because of animal rights type stuff, and faux meat that doesn't involve animals works just as well. Moreover, as someone who does eat meat, though infrequently many of the "meat substitutes" are completely delicious. A veggie burger tastes different than an actual burger, and sometimes I prefer it, and extra firm tofu is largely seen as a meat substitute, and it is both healthier and less of a pain to cook, as well as tasting different enough to warrant being seen as its own entity and not just a substitute.

Really, its not "Here's something that looks like meat, because you won't eat meat, and everyone likes meat", its "This is sort of like meat, if you have meat cravings it works, otherwise it has its own flavors, and you don't have to do much cooking."

I guess it just insults me because I've been vegitarian for... 19 years, 6 months, and 14 days.

So, my whole life.

Anyway, my mother (also vegitarian) doesn't like them either, because she doesn't like real meat, and doesn't want to be reminded of it while she's eating.

I don't know what the meat replacement was made of either way. Years back we often had something called "valess", which is made out of dairy products by the company my dad works for. It doesn't really taste like meat and the flavour is much softer - but that should be obvious with what it is made of.

I positively hate tofu though. Does tofu fall under the meat replacements that you despire, TMK? If so, I presume you stick to fruits, vegetables, wheats and potatoes?

Tofu does not fall under the meat replacement label, since it's... Well, a block of white bean curd in it's most often sold state. If it's processed, and turned into something that's pretending to be, say, bacon, though... Then it's under that line.

Anyway, I may be vegitarian, but that doesn't mean I eat vegetables- I get by mainly on wheats/grains, usually in a more refined form combined with eggs/milk.

So yeah.

So pizza and bread. And corn.

Most of the vegetarians I know are hipsters.

Being omnivorous is so mainstream. I was vegitarian before it was cool.

Serpentine

2011-05-14, 08:20 AM

I guess it just insults me because I've been vegitarian for... 19 years, 6 months, and 14 days.

So, my whole life.Sooo... what, vegetarians who are so despite liking the taste of meat shouldn't be able to eat things they like because it's a personal insult to you because you were vegetarian first? :smallconfused:

The-Mage-King

2011-05-14, 08:53 AM

Sooo... what, vegetarians who are so despite liking the taste of meat shouldn't be able to eat things they like because it's a personal insult to you because you were vegetarian first? :smallconfused:

Never said that. I said I don't like them because they insult me. Where did I ever say that people shouldn't eat that? Because, looking ove my posts, I didn't say that. At all.

Serpentine

2011-05-14, 09:03 AM

You said it's insulting. Generally it's assumed you don't want people doing things that insult you.

The-Mage-King

2011-05-14, 09:06 AM

You said it's insulting. Generally it's assumed you don't want people doing things that insult you.

... I believe in freedom of choice. If they want to go on insulting me, that's fine. Though I'd prefer it if they'd stop marketing them like they do, it doesn't really matter to me.

Serpentine

2011-05-14, 09:43 AM

So, you would prefer it if vegetarians-who-like-the-taste-of-meat didn't have that option because it insults you as a life-long vegetarian. Got it :smallwink:

Rawhide

2011-05-14, 10:03 AM

... I believe in freedom of choice. If they want to go on insulting me, that's fine, even though they're wrong. Though I'd prefer it if they'd stop, it doesn't really matter to me.

The-Mage-King: You might want to reconsider your words. I'm not sure you meant it, but what you've said is rather insulting.

The-Mage-King

2011-05-14, 10:10 AM

So, you would prefer it if vegetarians-who-like-the-taste-of-meat didn't have that option because it insults you as a life-long vegetarian. Got it :smallwink:

I have a difficult time putting my thoughts on the matter into words.

Prehaps...

... I believe in freedom of choice. If they want to go on insulting me, that's fine. Though I'd prefer it if they'd stop marketing them like they do, it doesn't really matter to me.

Is more apt too describe it.

The-Mage-King: You might want to reconsider your words. I'm not sure you meant it, but what you've said is rather insulting.

Noted. Editing the post to be less insulting.

BiblioRook

2011-05-14, 12:17 PM

Anyway; I have noticed that most of the people I know who are vegetarian are also LGBT. Has anyone else noticed a similar trend, or is this just me?

Never noticed anything along those lines, but the hipster thing hasn't gone unnoticed to me...

Though I actually don't know all that many other vegetarians personally to be honest.

unosarta

2011-05-14, 03:11 PM

Well, I'm straight, and I'm a veggie. But I have noticed that a lot of LGBT people are veggies. I'd say that the correlation goes more that way than to say most veggies are LGBT.

I was just wondering if anyone saw the correlation. I said "most of the people I know who are vegetarian are also LGBT," not necessarily that most vegetarians are LGBT.

Gaelbert

2011-05-15, 12:29 AM

Knowing several diabetics, I know it is.

As someone who has lived with diabetes for the last fifteen years, I can tell you it assuredly is not. It is not a food restriction in the same sense a food allergy is, or celiac disease, or vegetarianism, or lactose intolerance. It just means that sometimes you need to use insulin after you eat. It stops you from eating nothing.

I was just wondering if anyone saw the correlation. I said "most of the people I know who are vegetarian are also LGBT," not necessarily that most vegetarians are LGBT.
I've noticed a correlation as well. Keep in mind, though, my sample of vegetarians is disproportionately full of hippies in a housing co-op.

MartytheBioGuy

2011-05-15, 12:30 AM

I was just wondering if anyone saw the correlation. I said "most of the people I know who are vegetarian are also LGBT," not necessarily that most vegetarians are LGBT.

Right, right, and I am by no means insulted by the insinuation, that would be silly. But I was merely pointing to the direction the correlation might more aptly point. And I have indeed seen a correlation, as many of my LGBT friends are vegetarians or vegans. So yeah? Yeah. I think that encapsulates that well. I'm tired right now.

factotum

2011-05-15, 12:56 AM

It just means that sometimes you need to use insulin after you eat.

It depends on which type you're talking about. Type 1 diabetes is the one where you have to take insulin. Type 2 diabetes is generally possible to control with diet, in which case, it *would* count as a food restriction, because you're having to change what you eat to suit your malady!

Gaelbert

2011-05-15, 01:00 AM

It depends on which type you're talking about. Type 1 diabetes is the one where you have to take insulin. Type 2 diabetes is generally possible to control with diet, in which case, it *would* count as a food restriction, because you're having to change what you eat to suit your malady!

Although diets can be one aspect of treating type 2, it's certainly not the only one and the diets are often no more limiting than "eat healthy." I wouldn't necessarily call that a food restriction.
But we're wandering off topic. My apologies.

Erloas

2011-05-15, 07:39 AM

I wouldn't necessarily call that a food restriction.

I think its just as much of a food restriction as any other non-allergic based choice. Its not like being a vegetarian in any way makes you unable to eat meat, it just means you have made that choice for your own good (whether that is entirely a mental well being doesn't matter). Being diabetic there are certain types of foods that will be a lot easier to manage your diabetes with then other types of foods. And while it might not restrict you on any given meal, it does over the days and several meals. If you eat that piece of cake you'll probably have to avoid much else sugary for the rest of the day.

"Eating healthy" is, at this point, very much a dietary restriction. The options available to you when eating healthy are probably 1/4 of what is available to you if you don't really care.

Anuan

2011-05-15, 07:45 AM

Is this going to turn into the last vegetarian/vegan thread? :smallannoyed:

Serpentine

2011-05-15, 12:20 PM

It hasn't so far :smallconfused: Just a weird argument on the semantics of the term "dietary restriction".

ZombyWoof

2011-05-15, 12:44 PM

When growing up my sister was an on-again-off-again vegetarian. Eventually she decided that she didn't care about eating meat, what was important to her was eating healthy, and I do have to say I grew up with some of the healthiest food imaginable.

In fact two of my favorite meals are vegetarian or at least can easily be vegetarian without changing it too much, and there's a local restaurant I always eat vegetarian at just because it's a bit better.

But I'm not a vegetarian by any stretch of the imagination.

Just not an obsessive-compulsive meat-eater :smallwink:

Gaelbert

2011-05-15, 01:18 PM

I think its just as much of a food restriction as any other non-allergic based choice. Its not like being a vegetarian in any way makes you unable to eat meat, it just means you have made that choice for your own good (whether that is entirely a mental well being doesn't matter). Being diabetic there are certain types of foods that will be a lot easier to manage your diabetes with then other types of foods. And while it might not restrict you on any given meal, it does over the days and several meals. If you eat that piece of cake you'll probably have to avoid much else sugary for the rest of the day.

"Eating healthy" is, at this point, very much a dietary restriction. The options available to you when eating healthy are probably 1/4 of what is available to you if you don't really care.

Clearly we're working on different definitions, so I'm not going to argue that. It's just a little pet peeve of mine, when people assume diabetics can't eat sugar (:smallsigh:). But you're obviously more informed than most, and that isn't a problem here.

It hasn't so far :smallconfused: Just a weird argument on the semantics of the term "dietary restriction".

When it comes to semantics, no one wins.

I was thinking about my vege(pesce)tarianism recently, and I realized I had a far easier time giving up meat than I did giving up soda a few years back, which was even easier than giving up wheat, rye, barley, and oats a few years before that.. I think once you build up the willpower to give one thing up, adding on extra prohibited items gets progressively easier and easier.
Has anyone noticed that? How hard was it for people to give up meat?

Coidzor

2011-05-15, 07:05 PM

Although diets can be one aspect of treating type 2, it's certainly not the only one and the diets are often no more limiting than "eat healthy." I wouldn't necessarily call that a food restriction.

:smallconfused: ...I was pretty sure the usual reason for Type 2 was because people weren't watching what they ate in the first place, such as in the case of my parents...

I was thinking about my vege(pesce)tarianism recently, and I realized I had a far easier time giving up meat than I did giving up soda a few years back, which was even easier than giving up wheat, rye, barley, and oats a few years before that.

Do you only eat corn or do you have no grains at all? And soda was a non-issue for me, but I've no real reason to want to give up good bread.

Gaelbert

2011-05-15, 07:27 PM

:smallconfused: ...I was pretty sure the usual reason for Type 2 was because people weren't watching what they ate in the first place, such as in the case of my parents...

Do you only eat corn or do you have no grains at all? And soda was a non-issue for me, but I've no real reason to want to give up good bread.

Yes, that's usually the reason, but it doesn't mean you need to cut out sugar entirely. Just that you should regulate your consumption and eat reasonably.

I have celiac disease, so it wasn't really a choice. I can have rice, corn, tapioca, etc., just not the ones listed above.
Which makes veggie burgers very difficult. It's nearly impossible to find a veggie burger that doesn't use wheat as a filler ingredient to take up space. The supermarket near my home used to carry one brand that was fine, but not anymore.

ZombyWoof

2011-05-15, 07:57 PM

Didya try out that pizza place I recommended yet? :smallwink: I'd love to take you! (Seriously I love that place)

Kain05

2011-05-16, 10:11 AM

Since this thread is about veggies (which I do love) and there are a few environmentally concerned people here, me included, I thought I would post this link.

This is a 2009 study showing the declining nutrient values of our vegetables and grains.

http://depthome.brooklyn.cuny.edu/anthro/faculty/mitrovic/davis_2009_food_nutrient.pdf

Here is another study that was done in 2004 that compared food composition between 1950 and 1999:

http://www.jacn.org/content/23/6/669.full

Here are a few of the highlights, in 1999 our vegetables contained:

•16% less calcium
•9% less phosphorus
•15% less iron
•Protein down 6%,
•Vitamin B2 down 38%
•Vitamin C down 15%

And of course the effects of declining nutrients in our vegetables and grains do carry over to our grain fed livestock, so this affects almost everyone, even people that only eat organic foods may not be exempt unless the farms that produce their foods use a rotation system of livestock and plants to replenish the nutrients and minerals in the soil, or some other way of which I am not aware but am open to being informed.

There is a huge concern over the effects of the factory farming of livestock, I hear about is constantly, but not much is ever said about factory farmed agriculture. Is it really wise to focus on one branch of our food source or should we be looking at factory farming as a whole.