Baneful Surgeon: PrC that needs your input!!!

[classy one]

]THE BANEFUL SURGICAL

http://gothamist.com/attachments/nyc_arts_john/sweeneytodd2.jpg

"It's not how fast or how hard you strike, but where and how that matters most." unknown Brutalizer

Baneful Surgeonare a rare breed of assassins that use knowledge of anatomy an medical treatments to hobble and kill their targets. Unlike the traditional assassin, Brutalizers don't use poisons or spells to accomplish their kills but strike key areas with deadly precision to gain maximium effect. Rather than acrane spells they use surgical techniques in combat called Procedures, which combine two precision feats to create a synergistic effects.

BECOMING A BANEFUL SURGEON

ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Feats: deadly precision, arterial strike
Class feature: sneak attack +2d6 or psionic sneak attack +1d6
Special: Killed a target with bleeding wounds

Class Skills
The Baneful Surgeon's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha).

Skill Points at Each Level
4 + Int modifier


Hit Dice: d6

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Procedures Known
1st|
+0|
+0|
+2|
+0|Blood Thinner, Decimator|0

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+3|
+0|+1d6 sneak attack, precision feat|1

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+3|
+1|Surgical Precision|2

4th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+1|+2d6 sneak attack, precision feat|3

5th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+1|Gushing wounds|5

6th|
+4|
+2|
+5|
+2|+3d6 sneak attack, precision feat|6

7th|
+5|
+2|
+5|
+2|Greater Surgical Precision|7

8th|
+6|
+2|
+6|
+2|+4d6 sneak attack, precision feat|9

9th|
+6|
+3|
+6|
+3|Combat Surgeon|10

10th|
+7|
+3|
+7|
+3|+5d6 sneak attack, precision feat|12[/table]

Weapon Proficiencies: Brutalizers gain no weapon profiencies.

Blood Thinner: Extracted from the fang of leeches, this medicine is usually used to prevent heart attacks and strokes. A Baneful Surgeon uses this usually beneficial medicine to make hinder natural clotting. Bleeding wounds now require an additional one round of pressure (standard action) after a successful heal check. If interrupted, the victim will need to start over again by succeeding another heal check, and have one applied to him. This is not a poison, in fact it is a widily used medicine, a Baneful Surgeon (or anyone else) never has to worry about "poisoning" themselves.

Decimator: a Baneful Surgeon's skill with his precision feats is such that each time he uses them in an attack or procedure he forgoes one less d6 than listed. For example, a Baneful Surgeon using maiming strike would only have to forgo 1d6 of sneak attack damage to deal 1 point of Cha damage. This only applies to precision feats and not procedures themselves.

Procedures: Starting at level 2 a Baneful Surgeon can combine two separate precision feats, a Brutalizer can gain (in addition to the two separate feats) added effects by paying an additional cost in sneak attack damage (on top of the cost for each separate feat).
Some procedures can be reversed with a certain healing spell or a heal check as specified in the description.
Reversing the procedure does not remove the effects of the two feats used to create it. They must be removed separately.
All procedures can only be used during standard attack action. A Baneful Surgeon cannot apply procedures to an attack during a charge or full attack. A procedure requires extreme blade control. Hence, a Baneful Surgeon using two weapon fighting or wearing any heavy armor will not be able to perform procedures.
A Baneful Surgeon can select any Procedure he has the required precision feats for.
Unless otherwise noted the DC for procedures is equal to 10+ the number of extra damage dice normally dealt by your sneak attack+ Dex modifier. List procedures, their effects and requirements are listed in the next post.

Sneak Attack: This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage dealt increases by +1d6 every even level. If a Baneful Surgeon gets a sneak attack bonus from another source the bonuses on damage stack.

Precision feats: At every even level a Baneful Surgeon gains a bonus feat from the list below. Most precision feats (with the exception of staggering strike) require you to forgo a certain amount of sneak attack damge to use.
He does not have to meet it prerequisites to select them and can use them normally even if he does not have the required weapon (like throat punch and headshot). He cannot however, use them if he is unable to forgo the needed sneak attack damage.
Concussion Attack, Deafening Strike, Disembowling Strike, Eldritch Erosion, Hamstring, Headshot*, Impeding attack, Maiming strike, Mind strike, persistent attacker, Staggering strike, Throat punch*

*a Baneful Surgeon can use these feats as normally even if he does not have the required weapons. Using throat punch does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Surgical Precision: While rogues and assassins might be able to hit the liver, how many can claim to hit the hepatic vein? At level 3, when a Baneful Surgeon re-rolls for sneak attack damage using the deady precision feat, a Baneful Surgeon can continue to reroll until he gets a result that is 2 or higher.

Gushing Wounds: a Baneful Surgeon at level 5 now masters the art of slashing arteries to inflict cause a dramatic gush of blood. His arterial strikes now deal 3 bleeding wounds rather than 1. The heal DC also increases to 15+Baneful Surgeon levels+ Dex.

Greater Surgical Precision: a Baneful Surgeon's attacks are so precise and deadly that the wounds he inflicts are nothing short of devastating. He can now re-roll all results of 2 or less, and continue to do so until he gets a result greater than 2.

Combat Surgeon: At level 9 a Baneful Surgeon's is skilled enough with his Procedures that he can perform them as part of an attack. He can now use procedures during a charge or full attack.

PLAYING A BANEFUL SURGEON
The Brutalizer trades extra damage dealt by sneak attack to hinder and/or kill the opposition. Even a basic wound made from arterial strike will either consume curative spells, or waste actions for healing. Procedures add versatility to sneak attacks producing hybrid effects in exchange for sneak attack damage. A Baneful Surgeon left unchecked will make their opposition rue the day they ever met one. At least the ones that survive.

Combat: A Baneful Surgeon plays much like a rogue, but are quite frail due to the restriction on light-medium armor. While most rogues will take up two-weapon fighting to almost double their damage output, a Baneful Surgeon must settle for one handed fighting. However, the procedures that a Baneful Surgeon can perform on his victims make for this by hindering the targets in several way. The Bleeding wound is the most basic way a Baneful Surgeon can waste the opposition's resources and time, but as he gains more extra damage from sneak attacks his procedures start to really shine. Any healer facing a Brutalizer will have his hands full.

Advancement: Most continue as rogues since they offer the fastest advancement in sneak attack damage. Evil Baneful Surgeon often segway into assassin since their skills compliment each other so well.
MORE TO COME
Resources: What resources might a member of this PrC be able to draw on..

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Name
alignment/Gender/Race/Levels
Init +0, Senses: Listen +, Spot +,
Languages
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AC , touch , flat-footed ()
hp ( HD)
Fort +, Ref +, Will +
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Speed ft. ( squares)
Melee
Base Atk +, Grp +
Atk Options
Combat Gear
Spells Prepared
Supernatural Abilities
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Abilities Str , Dex , Con , Int , Wis , Cha
SQ
Feats
Skills
Possessions

[classy one]

List of Procedures (so far):

Carotid slash (AKA: endarterectomy): requires throat punch and Arterial strike. By forgoing 3d6, the BA opens up the main artery leading to the head. In addition to the effects of the required strikes, the target must succeed a a Fort save or instantly become unconscious due to lack of blood entering the brain. The victim must continue to roll his save for next 3 rounds with the DC increasing by 2 every turn. On the 4th round the victim instantly dies.
Reversed by a heal check for 3 consecutive rounds or a cure critical wounds or a healing power that uses at least 9 power points. Each successful heal check will prolong the victim's life but 3 checks in a row are needed to stop the profuse bleeding completely.

Guttler (AKA: colonectomy): One the most cruel and grotesque procedures in the BA's arsenal. By combining arterial strike and disemboweling strike, a BA makes a long gash along his victim's gut, coils his intestines on his dagger and yanks out his victim's innards. The sight of such an atrocity causes fear and revulsion to all who witness this procedure. All of the victim's allies within 30' must make a will save (DC=10+ BA lvl) or be sickened. The victim must also make a will save or drop to their knees and cower in horror at the sight his guts, undigested food, and stool pooling around him. On a successful save, he is nauseated. On each subsequent round, the victim takes another 1d4 CON damage, this lasts until this procedure is reversed or the victim's CON falls to 0, The BA must forgo 3d6 to use this procedure. This procedure can only be done on the same target once a day.
Reversed by cure critical wounds or a healing power that uses at least 9 power points

Partial amputation: combining hamstring and maiming strike, the BA rips through skin, muscle, tendon and ligaments, leaving the limb hanging only by scarred bone. The victim can only make a 5 foot step on his turn, and must make A BA forgoes 1d6 sneak attack damage to perform this procedure. Further applications of this procedure have no additional effect.
Reversed by any cure spell/power or a heal.

Subclavian stab: combining arterial strike with impending attack a BA aims for the subclavian vein and the brachial plexus that runs closely with it. Once performed, the victims must takes an additional -2 on STR and DEX checks (total of -4) and make a STR check to hold anything over 5 lb. or a DEX check for anything under 5 lb. (such as spell components and light weapons). Performing this procedure forgoes 2d6 SA damage. Further applications of this feat increases the STR and DEX penalty by 2.
If the victim fails his check he fumbles whatever he was holding and drops whatever he was trying manipulate.
Reversed by a cure serious wound or heal or any healing power that uses at least 7 power points.

Maddening blow: Combines concussion attack and Headshot. This when rolling for confusion effect the victim always adds 10% to his roll. Any results of 100+% is treated as 100%. Forgo 1d6 SA damage.
This effect is instantaneous and wears off in one round. The effects of this procedure do not stack, further applications of this procedure do not increase it further. It cannot be reversed.

Meridian strike : Combines Eldritch Erosion with mind stab. This procedure attacks the focal points of casters and manifesters, decreasing their effectiveness in casting/manifesting. Once performed, the victim's CL or ML is decreased by 2 for 10 rounds. The victim does not lose any powers or spells and can cast/manifest them normally (at -2 power point cost if a manifester) but only influences variables that are affected by CL/ML, such as range, damage, overcoming resistance etc. Further applications of this procedure increase it's duration but have no other effect. Forgo 1d6 SA damage.
This procedure is not reversible, it simply runs itself out in 10 rounds.

Disorienting attack: combines deafening strike with concussion attack. This procedure hits the balance centers of the brain, making him unable to tell up from down. Until reversed, the victim must roll a 1d2 every time he tries to move more than 5 feet. On a roll of 1, the victim moves normally. On a roll of 2, the victim moves in the opposite direction. Forgo 1d6 SA damage.
Reversed with a heal check 15 or a cure spell/power.

Sciatica: combines merciful strike and hamstring. This procedure attacks the sciatic nerve that runs on the outer quadrant of the hip causing pain and incoordination. Anytime the victim attempts to move more than 10 feet in one turn he must make a reflex save or fall prone. Forgo 2d6 SA damage.
Reversed with a cure moderate wounds or a healing power that uses at least 5 power points.

Anesthesia: combines merciful strike with arterial strike, this procedure causes the victim to feel no pain all the while bleeding to death. The victim can now continue to function after his hit points drop below 0 as if he had the die hard feat but will still die if he reaches -9 HP. For every full round action (ie a full attack or a charge) the victim initiates he suffers 4 times the wounding damage than he usually would. Forgo 1d6 to perform this procedure.
Reversed by a cure spell/power. If the victim still has less than 1 HP after the cure, he immediately begins dying.

Lobotomy: combines Headshot and mind strike, this procedure impairs the higher functions of the brain. This deprives the victim of one of his highest level spell or power choose at random. Forgo 2d6 SA damage.
This procedure lasts for 10 rounds. It is not reversible.

Disfiguring scar: combines maiming strike and concussion strike. This procedure creates a horrific scar that damages the victim's sense of self so severely that he is shaken. Forgoes 1d6.
Reversed by heal check of 15 or any healing magic or power.

[classy one]

I always liked the idea of ambush feats found in Complete Scoundrel but found it hard to make use of them since they are underwhelming at best.


I'd love some advice on how to make this better. Need more procedures as well especially one's for Impeding strike, persistant attacker, deafening and maiming.

I feel there is a lack of cheap procedures as well. not much I can pick for the early levels.....

PEACH would be nice too.

[Demidos]

Looks cool, the picture doesnt seem to be working for me though:smallfrown:

[classy one]

Looks cool, the picture doesnt seem to be working for me though:smallfrown:

Some advice would have been welcome but thank you for your interest. I'll get a pic up if it can stir up some discussion.

When I first posted this concept asking for help I got zero replies. So I decided to tackle this homebrew myself, and yet still no advice....

Maybe the real advice I need is how to be a interesting thread starter? Anyway, I put a lot of time and thought into this PrC your feedback would be much appreciated.

[jiriku]

A more interesting thread starter
The name "brutalizer" is...uninspiring at best. You might get more views if you chose something evocative like "Mad Surgeon" or "Surgical Assassin" or somesuch.

Class balance
A class that gives up spells should gain skill points. Although your procedures provide some nice debuffs, they don't compensate for the versatility lost when you cut the spell access. More skill points (and often more class skills) are needed to restore some of that lost versatility.

Blood Thinner: More text is needed to describe where the character gets his blood thinner or how he makes it, how he applies it, how long it lasts when applied, etc. Does it work like a poison? Does it fail against creatures immune to poison? This needs to be fleshed out.

Decimator: The Ambush feats are weak enough that you could just dispense with the lost dice altogether. Really. Also, the term "decimation" refers to the ancient Roman practice of forcing nine-tenths of a rebellious legion to murder the other tenth. It has nothing to do with striking precisely. I'd suggest a different, more descriptive name, such as "Superb Ambush" or "Amazing Precision".

Precision Feats: While bonus feats are good to have, this almost seems like it's too much. By the time you complete the progression, you're going to have no less than 7 of the 14 possible Ambush feats, and be stacking probably 3-4 riders on top of every strike, minimum. Who needs that many? I think if I was going to take this class, I'd rather see slightly fewer bonus feats (which I can get elsewhere anyhow), and more unique abilities that can't be had from other places. Also, there are so few Ambush feats to choose from, and some of them are decidedly more useful than others -- if you grant too many of them, you risk making every member of this class feel the same, because they all have the same tricks. Leave a little room for variety.

Procedures: Same issue here. You already know that you're granting 12 procedures but only have 11 written. What you need to consider is that with 12 procedures known, you'll need at least 24 procedures, and probably more, to create some variety among different members of this class. There aren't really enough Ambush feats for you to create that many useful procedures. Which means you'll need to write half a dozen more Ambush feats, and a LOT more procedures. Or reduce the number of procedures known.

Your terminology in describing how procedures work is rather dodgy and needs some clarification. You say that using a procedures is a "standard attack action". What's that? You also say that procedures can't be used while encumbered, but then go on to explain that you mean "using two weapons or wearing heavy armor". Encumbrance has a very specific meaning relating to how much weight you're carrying, and has nothing to do with what weapons and armor you're using.

I like the mechanic for determining procedure DC. It's clever, and should be well-balanced at all levels.

Gushing Wounds: The Heal DC increase is trivial. If you want to make the wounds hard to treat, increase it to the save DC by your character level.

Feedback on Specific Procedures
You need to explan the limits of these abilities. For example, what happens when attack a victim with no blood, or no intestines, or no brain, or no head? Can lobotomy work on a victim whose brain is in his torso? How does partial amputation work when applied to a creature with four or more legs? How does guttler work on an opponent who isn't standing on his ground, or may even lack legs altogether? Is disfiguring scar effective against monsters that are by nature gruesomely scarred? You need to step out of the assumption that the opponent is human and consider how each of these abilities would work in the context of the fantastic anatomies of D&D monsters.

Many of the procedures are excessively complicated to resolve. As a rule of thumb, if resolving the effect of a procedure requires more than two additional die rolls, you're doing it wrong. Remember that since you can potentially stack 2, 3, 4, 5, or more effects on a single strike, and some builds could routinely make 4-6 attack per round, you need to find some system of resolving these procedures that doesn't potentially invoke 20+ die rolls in response to your first round of attacks.

Your adjectives and adverbs need a little review as well. You tend to use the words "instantly" and "instantaneous" to describe things that don't happen right away or that last for a duration. You'll want to clean up the descriptions to be more clear.

[Sacrieur]

A more interesting thread starter
The name "brutalizer" is...uninspiring at best. You might get more views if you chose something evocative like "Mad Surgeon" or "Surgical Assassin" or somesuch.

I agree, when I read brutalizer I think of some barbarian who rips people's faces off and uses their limbs as a weapon. It just doesn't fit the class imo.

[classy one]

Thanks for this. I see I have a bit of work to do here. I know it lacked polish as I had quite a bit of ideas boucing around in my head and they ended up on paper rather haphazardly.


A more interesting thread starter
The name "brutalizer" is...uninspiring at best. You might get more views if you chose something evocative like "Mad Surgeon" or "Surgical Assassin" or somesuch.
Hmm surgeon sounds right... I'll have to think about this


Class balance
A class that gives up spells should gain skill points. Although your procedures provide some nice debuffs, they don't compensate for the versatility lost when you cut the spell access. More skill points (and often more class skills) are needed to restore some of that lost versatility.
I was worried it was going to be too powerful to be honest, so I nerfed it quite a bit. I did add heal and all knowledge to skills. I would be fine to increase this to 6+INT rather than 4+.



Blood Thinner: More text is needed to describe where the character gets his blood thinner or how he makes it, how he applies it, how long it lasts when applied, etc. Does it work like a poison? Does it fail against creatures immune to poison? This needs to be fleshed out.

A blood thinner is just like herperin, warfarin, plavix or aspirin, I've given it to patients all the time and never "poisoned" myself. I will be more explicit that it isn't a poison, but I did say it was a medicine at the start.



Decimator: The Ambush feats are weak enough that you could just dispense with the lost dice altogether. Really. Also, the term "decimation" refers to the ancient Roman practice of forcing nine-tenths of a rebellious legion to murder the other tenth. It has nothing to do with striking precisely. I'd suggest a different, more descriptive name, such as "Superb Ambush" or "Amazing Precision".
If I dispensed with lost dice altogether, then something like maiming strike (trade 2d6 for 1 CHA damage) will become very broken since it can be applied as many times as you have sneak attack damage. Decimate might not be the right word, but I was going for the modern use which was the "kill off in large numbers". Not all the appropriate either way.



Precision Feats: While bonus feats are good to have, this almost seems like it's too much. By the time you complete the progression, you're going to have no less than 7 of the 14 possible Ambush feats, and be stacking probably 3-4 riders on top of every strike, minimum. Who needs that many? I think if I was going to take this class, I'd rather see slightly fewer bonus feats (which I can get elsewhere anyhow), and more unique abilities that can't be had from other places. Also, there are so few Ambush feats to choose from, and some of them are decidedly more useful than others -- if you grant too many of them, you risk making every member of this class feel the same, because they all have the same tricks. Leave a little room for variety.
You raise a good point about not enough "ambush" feats (many feats listed are not ambush feats ie maiming strike, hamstring) to go around. I will lower it to every 2 levels rather than every other level. I was trying to make the "not useful" feats useful by mixing them with procedures. I'd love to hear which ones you find to not be useful so I can remedy that.



Procedures: Same issue here. You already know that you're granting 12 procedures but only have 11 written. What you need to consider is that with 12 procedures known, you'll need at least 24 procedures, and probably more, to create some variety among different members of this class. There aren't really enough Ambush feats for you to create that many useful procedures. Which means you'll need to write half a dozen more Ambush feats, and a LOT more procedures. Or reduce the number of procedures known.
I have more procedures in my head that I will put on paper. I just didn't see much feedback to motivate me. "Why bother raking my brain over something no one will read?" was my thinking there.
That being said, when I first wrote this PrC I only gave them 5 procedures but increased it once I realized it would not give them much in the way of an arsenal. With 12 feats and each procedure being a combo of 2 of them I have well over 100 procedures to make. Will they be thematically appropriate is another issue.



Your terminology in describing how procedures work is rather dodgy and needs some clarification. You say that using a procedures is a "standard attack action". What's that?
My way of saying you can't use it in a full attack or charge. How should it be worded? "Only be used as a standard attack"?


You also say that procedures can't be used while encumbered, but then go on to explain that you mean "using two weapons or wearing heavy armor".
Well I have never seen a surgeon operate with 2 scalpels.... I'll just say you can only have one weapon and only wear light-medium armor and get rid of the whole "while encumbered" sentence.


I like the mechanic for determining procedure DC. It's clever, and should be well-balanced at all levels.
Least I got something right.



Gushing Wounds: The Heal DC increase is trivial. If you want to make the wounds hard to treat, increase it to the save DC by your character level.
I already made wounds troublesome to treat by making the use 2 rounds to treat rather than one. Would incerasing the DC just make it punitive?


Feedback on Specific Procedures
You need to explan the limits of these abilities.......You need to step out of the assumption that the opponent is human and consider how each of these abilities would work in the context of the fantastic anatomies of D&D monsters.
You are totally right. I did made the assumption my opponents are human because procedures are short for "surgical procedures" which is done on humans. I will have to clarify this.



Many of the procedures are excessively complicated to resolve. As a rule of thumb, if resolving the effect of a procedure requires more than two additional die rolls, you're doing it wrong. Remember that since you can potentially stack 2, 3, 4, 5, or more effects on a single strike, and some builds could routinely make 4-6 attack per round, you need to find some system of resolving these procedures that doesn't potentially invoke 20+ die rolls in response to your first round of attacks.
I did toy with idea of removing all saves for procedures but felt it was too powerful. Another idea was remove any means to treat it with heal checks but again shyed away from that. I do acknowledge this and tried to limit this by making procedures standard actions. That being said, my capstone does remove this restriction.... I should also clarify that you can only use one procedure at a time.
Some procedures were meant to be "the kill shot" like carotid slash. As opposed to the assassin's death attack it can be used on round one but takes 3 turns to kill you. I don't have any ideas as to how to solve this right now so your help would be appriciated.

More help on procedures would be nice!

[jiriku]

The picture is most excellent. Really conveys a powerful vision for the class.
The name is still iffy. "Baneful" is a kind of generic term. But I'll freely admit that I'm nitpicking at this point.

Blood Thinner: I wasn't so much worried about you poisoning yourself as how you get the thinner in the actual opponent. Presumably it's applied to your weapon? So, what kind of action does it take to apply? How many strikes is it good for before it needs to be reapplied? Actually, you know what, scratch that. I see what you want to do -- a class feature is just the wrong vehicle for presenting it. I'd suggest instead that you write up blood thinner as an alchemical item that requires a Heal check to use properly.

Skill Points: 6+ Int is pretty solid. I could even see 8. Your primary entry method is rogue, after all, which is an 8 sp class and frankly isn't all that impressive a class. Don't worry about creating an overpowered class -- any concept based only on stabbing people creatively is always going to be on the low side of the power curve. Speaking of which, you do have a functionality problem with this class -- I'll get to it down at the bottom of this post.

Decimator/Maiming Strike: I can appreciate your concern, but honestly 1 Cha damage on a hit is chump change.

Consider an example:
Let's say you have a rogue 3/surgeon 4 fighting a hill giant (both CR 7, should be an even fight). Suppose you attack the giant with a short sword and manage to sneak attack him every round (we'll assume you have some means of routinely getting a sneak attack, and that you always hit). You'll deal about 5d6 damage per hit, probably killing him on round 5 or 6.

Now, suppose you give up a crap-ton of sneak attack dice for 1 Cha per hit. Now you don't drop the giant until round 7, when he takes enough Cha damage to go comatose with horror at the damage you've done to his pretty, pretty face.

Finally, assume you get all your damage dice AND the Cha damage. The giant still drops on round 5 or 6 from damage. The Cha damage contributed nothing to the fight. And this was against a monster with low Cha who is extremely vulnerable to this kind of attack!

Precision Feats and Procedures: I'd recommend that you take a "less is more" approach -- give them a glass of your finest vintage, rather than a fully stocked cellar of Thunderbird and Mad Dog.

Terminology: Would this work?

Proposal:

Procedures: A Baneful Surgeon of 2nd level or higher can use his knowledge of surgical procedures to inflict serious medical trauma on an opponent. Procedures are essentially synergies achieved when applying two precision feats to a sneak attack. A Baneful surgeon cannot perform procedures while wearing heavy armor.

As a standard action, make an attack with a one-handed or light weapon. If your attack qualifies as a sneak attack (per the normal rules), you can elect to augment the attack with any surgical procedure that you know, along with its two associated precision damage feats. You must have sufficient dice of sneak attack available to pay the cost for both feats and the procedure.

Some procedures can be reversed with a certain healing spell or a heal check as specified in the description. Reversing the procedure does not remove the effects of any precision damage feats used as part of the attack.

You know one procedure at 2nd level, and learn additional procedures when you advance in level, as shown on the table above.

Unless otherwise noted, the save DC for procedures is 10 + your Dex modifier +the number of dice you are entitled to roll on a sneak attack. Procedures are described in detail in the next post.


Combat Surgeon: You may now perform procedures as an attack action, rather than a standard action. You may not perform procedures while fighting with multiple weapons.

Gushing Wounds: For here, and elsewhere where appropriate, I suggest you increase the DC of the Heal check and increase the number of rounds required to perform the Heal check, but require only a single check. It's the best of both worlds, and simplifies the process.

Miscellany: Saves and skill checks are good, and you were smart to retain them. They give the players a sense of agency when they get to roll them, and create suspense and uncertainty when the monsters get to roll them.


Class Functionality: There is an issue with the class that I didn't see on my first read-through. It's not a problem with what you wrote, but with what you didn't write.

A robust, well-rounded class needs three things:

a) a trick, something it does well in combat
b) a defense, something that protects it from the tricks of others
c) a fallback, something it does when its trick isn't needed

Some classes have many tricks, defenses, and fallbacks. Others have few. Every class needs at least one of each. Your class is all tricks (various ways to stab people); it has no defenses or fallbacks.

This sinks your battleship.

Now, there's two ways out of this corner.

1. You can create a class with a more limited scope. Many prestige classes that involve using a specific technique or specializing in a specific weapon or combat style are only 3 or 5 levels long. They're short enough that a member of a more well-rounded class can get it, learn a specialty, then get out and get back to being well-rounded. You could compress the class into five levels. This wouldn't be as hard as it seems, since you're not granting many unique features right now.

2. You can drop a bunch of tricks and replace them with defenses and fallbacks. I could propose a few likely targets.

Things to remove
Blood Thinner, Surgical Precision, Greater Surgical Precision, and Gushing Wounds. Blood Thinner should be an item. Surgical Precision and Greater Surgical Precision are just very tiny amounts of bonus damage, and you're already getting bonus damage from your sneak attack. Gushing Wounds could be rewritten as a procedure.

Things to add

Unnatural Recovery - I have...experimented on myself. Gain fast healing and immunity to wounding effects.
Scarification - Some of the experiments went badly. Gain damage reduction, and natural armor.
Major Scarification - Really really badly. DR and NA improve, gain light fortification and immunity to nonlethal damage and pain effects.
Mutations - And there were...unexpected side effects. Strange pheromones and altered psychological state grant a circumstance bonus to Charisma-based skill checks.
Craft Construct - But then I realized the secret. Gain an advanced homunculus or flesh golem as a companion.
Graft - And then I thought...why not? Gain a draconic, undead, outsider, or aberration limb graft. Or perhaps a fiendish symbiote. Or maybe just the half-golem template with the ability to automatically retain control of your personality.

Some of these ideas probably won't mesh with your vision for the class, but hopefully they'll get you thinking about what you could add that does fit your vision.

[classy one]

The picture is most excellent. Really conveys a powerful vision for the class.
The name is still iffy. "Baneful" is a kind of generic term. But I'll freely admit that I'm nitpicking at this point. ghh I know but I had a hard time thinking of another adjective. I thought Sweeny Todd was great since barbers were the old school surgeons before they needed to go to medical school.


Blood Thinner: ....... Actually, you know what, scratch that. I see what you want to do -- a class feature is just the wrong vehicle for presenting it. I'd suggest instead that you write up blood thinner as an alchemical item that requires a Heal check to use properly.
That can be arranged. It will give me a chance to put more features in.



Don't worry about creating an overpowered class -- any concept based only on stabbing people creatively is always going to be on the low side of the power curve.
I'm just trying to make a fun class based on solid knowledge surgery, but your words have set me free a bit. I really was worried I would go overboard and held back.



Decimator/Maiming Strike: I can appreciate your concern, but honestly 1 Cha damage on a hit is chump change.

I'm afraid maiming strike is not 1 Cha damage per attack but 1 Cha damage per 2d6 traded. So if I had +6d6 sneak attack I could trade all of it to deal 3 Cha damage with each hit. Now imagine I full attack with TWF? If I make it free I could deal unlimited Cha damage in one attack. I could limit it to "as much Cha damage as your max number of extra sneak attack die you are entitled to" but that sounds long winded. Still worth the thought.



Precision Feats and Procedures: I'd recommend that you take a "less is more" approach -- give them a glass of your finest vintage, rather than a fully stocked cellar of Thunderbird and Mad Dog.
[/quote] Problem is like you said, there are only around 12 feats altogether.... any suggestions?


Terminology: Would this work?
Indeed it would. Thanks again.



Gushing Wounds: For here, and elsewhere where appropriate, I suggest you increase the DC of the Heal check and increase the number of rounds required to perform the Heal check, but require only a single check. It's the best of both worlds, and simplifies the process.
Having to spend more than 3 turns nursing a bleed sounds really bad (or good..) for the victim. I suppose that I could make it so that while they apply pressure they suffer no bleeds so the wasted turn does do something.



Miscellany: Saves and skill checks are good, and you were smart to retain them. They give the players a sense of agency when they get to roll them, and create suspense and uncertainty when the monsters get to roll them.
Exactly what I was going for.


Some classes have many tricks, defenses, and fallbacks. Others have few. Every class needs at least one of each. Your class is all tricks (various ways to stab people); it has no defenses or fallbacks.

This sinks your battleship.

Now, there's two ways out of this corner.
[quote]
1. You can create a class with a more limited scope. Many prestige classes that involve using a specific technique or specializing in a specific weapon or combat style are only 3 or 5 levels long. They're short enough that a member of a more well-rounded class can get it, learn a specialty, then get out and get back to being well-rounded. You could compress the class into five levels. This wouldn't be as hard as it seems, since you're not granting many unique features right now.

2. You can drop a bunch of tricks and replace them with defenses and fallbacks. I could propose a few likely targets.
I might want to go with option 2. Procedures need the requisite feats to work afterall, and I will be triming it to only 4 feats in 10 levels rather than 5.



Things to remove
Blood Thinner, Surgical Precision, Greater Surgical Precision, and Gushing Wounds. Blood Thinner should be an item. Surgical Precision and Greater Surgical Precision are just very tiny amounts of bonus damage, and you're already getting bonus damage from your sneak attack. Gushing Wounds could be rewritten as a procedure.
I think I will consoldiate surgical precision, deadly precision is a feat tax if I don't improve it somehow. It improves the average damage per die by to about 4.5 since it negates 1-2. Blood thinner as an item will open things up.


Things to add

Unnatural Recovery - I have...experimented on myself. Gain fast healing and immunity to wounding effects.
Scarification - Some of the experiments went badly. Gain damage reduction, and natural armor.
Major Scarification - Really really badly. DR and NA improve, gain light fortification and immunity to nonlethal damage and pain effects.
Mutations - And there were...unexpected side effects. Strange pheromones and altered psychological state grant a circumstance bonus to Charisma-based skill checks.
Craft Construct - But then I realized the secret. Gain an advanced homunculus or flesh golem as a companion.
Graft - And then I thought...why not? Gain a draconic, undead, outsider, or aberration limb graft. Or perhaps a fiendish symbiote. Or maybe just the half-golem template with the ability to automatically retain control of your personality.

Some of these ideas probably won't mesh with your vision for the class, but hopefully they'll get you thinking about what you could add that does fit your vision.
Curiously I just gave out some advice for grafts and symbionts in an Eberron campaign. This I will have to consider, as it does have a surgical feel to it.

[jiriku]

I'm afraid maiming strike is not 1 Cha damage per attack but 1 Cha damage per 2d6 traded. So if I had +6d6 sneak attack I could trade all of it to deal 3 Cha damage with each hit. Now imagine I full attack with TWF? If I make it free I could deal unlimited Cha damage in one attack. I could limit it to "as much Cha damage as your max number of extra sneak attack die you are entitled to" but that sounds long winded. Still worth the thought.

Rebuttal to your rebuttal of my rebuttal: Hmm. It's better than I thought it was, then. However, it's easy enough to set a reasonable limit on the amount of Charisma damage that can be dealt. For example, just make it two per hit, as with the Crippling Strike rogue ability. Consider also some of the other precision damage feats. Staggering Strike is probably the best debuff of the lot, and requires no sacrifice at all. On the other hand, feats like Persistent Attacker and Deafening Strike, which require steep sacrifices for their "powerful" abilities, are basically junk feats - you trade a considerable amount of guaranteed damage for the small possibility of a reward in a future round. And using Arterial Strike is actually worse for you in most situations than pretending that you just set that feat slot on fire (which I assume you recognize, since you included the Gushing Wounds feature to improve it).


Problem is like you said, there are only around 12 feats altogether.... any suggestions?

Provide fewer bonus feats, so that a given surgeon will know only a few of them -- this forces the surgeon to specialize. Provide slightly fewer procedures - say, one at each level. Next, create several similar procedures within each possible pairing. For example, a set of procedures based on feats that inflict limb damage might limit mobility in various ways, while a set based on feats that inflict head shots might deny actions, and a set based feats relating to organ shots would include finishing moves and crippling strikes.


I think I will consoldiate surgical precision, deadly precision is a feat tax if I don't improve it somehow. It improves the average damage per die by to about 4.5 since it negates 1-2. Blood thinner as an item will open things up.

Even consolidated, Surgical Precision still underwhelms. If you're just trying to salvage a prerequisite feat at this point, perhaps Weapon Finesse would convey the same flavor without requiring a feat tax.

Looking forward to seeing what new features you create.