Prophecy in Order of the Stick

[t209]

When I saw the prophecy in Order of the stick, it is similar to prophecy telling sequence in Greek Epic.
E.G- Sapphire Guards attack red cloak's village because they fear that crimson mantled goblin is going to destroy Azure city, according to the prophecy. Result- Their city was captured by the same goblin in mantle cloak.
E.G- Prophecy says that Paris will cause the Troy to burn. His parents abandoned him and they found him again. Result- Paris kidnap Helen, fight with greeks and finally the city was burned by Wooden Horse.
My Point is The prophecy coming true even with or without intervention in the comic is similar to the one from the greek story.

[Roberto]

Yes. I agree.

[Velarias]

Excellent point. I was of the same opinion.

[FujinAkari]

Uhhh... while this is true, isn't this the definition of prophesy? It isn't specific, or even original, to Greek.

Also, where is this prophesy coming from? I thought they just knew the crimson mantle represented a threat to existence.

[KingFlameHawk]

When I saw the prophecy in Order of the stick, it is similar to prophecy telling sequence in Greek Epic.
E.G- Sapphire Guards attack red cloak's village because they fear that crimson mantled goblin is going to destroy Azure city, according to the prophecy. Result- Their city was captured by the same goblin in mantle cloak.
E.G- Prophecy says that Paris will cause the Troy to burn. His parents abandoned him and they found him again. Result- Paris kidnap Helen, fight with greeks and finally the city was burned by Wooden Horse.
My Point is The prophecy coming true even with or without intervention in the comic is similar to the one from the greek story.

These are called self-fulfilling prophecies I belive. They are a staple of Greek tales as they are often about people trying to fight fate and them losing because of their hubris in trying to defy fate. Ex. Oedipus

[FujinAkari]

These are called self-fulfilling prophecies I belive.

No, they're just called prophesies :P

A self-fulfilling prophesy is when you make a prediction and then subconsciously force yourself to meet it... like if you saw a cute girl and were like "Man... she'd never go out with someone like me..." and then, when you actually chat her up, get -extra- nervous and make a bad impression, making yourself right.

[t209]

No, they're just called prophesies :P

A self-fulfilling prophesy is when you make a prediction and then subconsciously force yourself to meet it... like if you saw a cute girl and were like "Man... she'd never go out with someone like me..." and then, when you actually chat her up, get -extra- nervous and make a bad impression, making yourself right.

No! What I meant was like the previous reply! The one like prediction of Oedipus killing his own father in Oedipus!

[Sarco_Phage]

There was no prophecy. The reason for the massacre was because the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle is a standing threat to all reality, not just Azure City. This was a direct order, presumably, from the Lord before Shojo.

[HappyBlanket]

No! What I meant was like the previous reply! The one like prediction of Oedipus killing his own father in Oedipus!

She's agreeing with you, actually.

So whats your point here? That oots uses prophecies akin to well known stories?

[t209]

Look at what the prophecy predicts about Belkar's cause of death of Roy, Miko and her horse (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) and the results. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html)

[FujinAkari]

Look at what the prophecy predicts about Belkar's cause of death of Roy, Miko and her horse (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) and the results. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html)

Yes... the prophesy was that Belkar would cause the death of at least one of the mentioned parties, and the result was that he caused the death of the Oracle. Everything else was humor :P

[Sarco_Phage]

Look at what the prophecy predicts about Belkar's cause of death of Roy, Miko and her horse (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) and the results. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html)

Yep. And those have nothing to do with the destruction of Azure City.

[HappyBlanket]

Look at what the prophecy predicts about Belkar's cause of death of Roy, Miko and her horse (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) and the results. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html)

Yes, we got that. Again, what's your point?

edit: There is a disturbing number of posts in this thread that effectively translate to "Ayup."

[NerfTW]

E.G- Sapphire Guards attack red cloak's village because they fear that crimson mantled goblin is going to destroy Azure city, according to the prophecy. Result- Their city was captured by the same goblin in mantle cloak.
.

There is no such prophecy in the story. As mentioned, they attacked because they know the Dark One is poking around the gates. Not because of a threat to Azure City.

Quick question before this goes any further: Do you actually own the book, or are you just one of those "I've read enough posts to get the gist of it and can therefore debate it" types? Because there's a LOT of misinformed summaries of the plot floating around here.

[sims796]

Yes, we got that. Again, what's your point?

edit: There is a disturbing number of posts in this thread that effectively translate to "Ayup."

This post is chock full of win.

Which, I guess, is another "ayup" post. Huh.

[Ancalagon]

A self-fulfilling prophesy is when you make a prediction and then subconsciously force yourself to meet it...

Not entirely true. A self-fullfilling prophecy is one that comes true BECAUSE the prophecy was made. It can be something subconscious but it usually is not.

Staying in the greek environment and using a "real" self-fullfilling prophecy: Oedipus. He's the son of a king but the king receives the prophecy the son would kill him one day.
So, to prevent his death, the king sends the very young boy away into the desert to die (he cannot kill him outright but sending him to a desert to starve on his own is fine) but Oedipus survives. As Oedipus does not know he's the king's son he returns when grown up to the king and kills him for some other reason (and, by the way, then marries his moththe queen afterwards).

If the prophecy would not have been uttered in the first place, the son would have grown up in court, would have known the king was his father and then would not have killed him.
This is a classical (it cannot get even more classical!) self-fullfilling prophecy.

[NerfTW]

the king sends the very young boy away into the desert to die (he cannot kill him outright but sending him to a desert to starve on his own is fine)

FYI, he wasn't sent out to starve, and he was a newborn. His mother couldn't bring herself to kill him, so she ordered a servant to do it. The servant couldn't do it either so left him on a mountaintop to die (or let the gods decide). He accidentally kills the king in a rage after the king runs over the man who raised him in a cart. Then he marries Jocasta.

Clearly, he couldn't have been a young child at the time, or he would have known they were his parents. But yes, that is a self fulfilling prophecy in that if they hadn't attempted to kill him, the circumstances where he killed what he thought was a random noble wouldn't have occurred.

[grimbold]

the thing is that in greek stories if something was prophesised to happen it would happen no matter what
once you accept that you then realize not all of the prohecies in oots have really happened thus while a good point i feel it may be invalid

[Ancalagon]

NerfTw, the thing with the desert/on the mountain is actually important:

If you kill someone, you are guilty of killing.
If you send him into the desert, it's the gods that kill him (because they COULD rescue him) - not you.

It's a fine but very important line (for the people of that culture). In this case, it came to bite them as the gods DID rescue someone.

Anyway, self-fullfilling prophecys are not about someone unconsciously becoming unable to speak to girls.

[Ron Miel]

There is no such prophecy in the story. As mentioned, they attacked because they know the Dark One is poking around the gates. Not because of a threat to Azure City.

Yes there is a prophecy. See page 10.

"there is one among you who threatens the very foundation of creation itself "

It sounds like he's quoting a prophecy to me. So we don't see the prophet in person, and the paladin doesn't actually say "this is a prophecy." It's still a prophecy being quoted. What else would it be?

Note, by the way, that it doesn't actually specify that the dangerous one is the one in the red cloak. Just that ONE of them is dangerous. That's why the paladins need to kill everyone, including the children.

[Origomar]

No, they're just called prophesies :P

A self-fulfilling prophesy is when you make a prediction and then subconsciously force yourself to meet it... like if you saw a cute girl and were like "Man... she'd never go out with someone like me..." and then, when you actually chat her up, get -extra- nervous and make a bad impression, making yourself right.

often times prophecys are considered as glimpses into the future, and the future is often incorrect.

it depends on how the whole universe works. often times prophecys are just predictions.

[NerfTW]

Yes there is a prophecy. See page 10.

"there is one among you who threatens the very foundation of creation itself "

It sounds like he's quoting a prophecy to me. So we don't see the prophet in person, and the paladin doesn't actually say "this is a prophecy." It's still a prophecy being quoted. What else would it be?


Or they are stating a current factual situation, that of the Crimson Mantle poking around looking for information on the gates. I hesitate to call it a prophecy when it's implied during the Crayons of Time arc that the Sapphire Guard was actively seeking out anyone with knowledge of the gates and silencing them. As the Dark One was aware of the rift prior to the quest to seal them, I'd file the Crimson Mantle under the same category as any other person aware of the rifts at the time.

We are given no information that anyone (outside of Team Evil) even knows what the Dark One's plan is. Certainly the Sapphire Guard is unaware of what they plan to do once they have a gate.

[Dr.Epic]

It's called a self-fulfilling prophecy and they're silly!:smallbiggrin:

[Ron Miel]

Or they are stating a current factual situation, that of the Crimson Mantle poking around looking for information on the gates.

Except that it WASN'T a current factual situation. The wearer of the mantle at the time didn't show any evidence of threatening creation, or even of looking for gates. He was just the spiritual leader of a small village, and probably fairly low level.

No, I'm sure the talk about threatening creation is a prophecy that refers to the one who would later be known as Redcloak.

[fibonacciseries]

Yes, we got that. Again, what's your point?


Not entirely true. A self-fullfilling prophecy is one that comes true BECAUSE the prophecy was made. It can be something subconscious but it usually is not.

Staying in the greek environment and using a "real" self-fullfilling prophecy: Oedipus. He's the son of a king but the king receives the prophecy the son would kill him one day.
So, to prevent his death, the king sends the very young boy away into the desert to die (he cannot kill him outright but sending him to a desert to starve on his own is fine) but Oedipus survives. As Oedipus does not know he's the king's son he returns when grown up to the king and kills him for some other reason (and, by the way, then marries his moththe queen afterwards).

If the prophecy would not have been uttered in the first place, the son would have grown up in court, would have known the king was his father and then would not have killed him.
This is a classical (it cannot get even more classical!) self-fullfilling prophecy.

Or, to summarize and clarify, the point being made is that OoTS, like the classical Greek mythology, has prophecies which are fulfilled because people tried to prevent their fulfillment (and thus was irony born).

[Zmflavius]

Or, to summarize and clarify, the point being made is that OoTS, like the classical Greek mythology, has prophecies which are fulfilled because people tried to prevent their fulfillment (and thus was irony born).

The thing is though, this isn't really original. True, there may be a distinction between self-fulfilling prophecies and "normal" prophecies, but nobody writes about prophecies where the protagonist simply lets it occur on its own, because it's neither interesting nor funny (unless there's a brick joke).

[FujinAkari]

No, I'm sure the talk about threatening creation is a prophecy that refers to the one who would later be known as Redcloak.

Three problems with this:

1) The Dark One's plan is to threaten creation. His orders to ANY PRIEST who wears that cloak is to do exactly what Redcloak is doing. It is impossible to say what Redcloak's mentor was actually trying to do in the long term, but since the Gods (including The Dark One) are forbidden from directly influencing the world, then we DO know that Redcloak's message wasn't any different than any of the other priests.

2) Redcloak knew where Lirian's gate was, and Lirian was fully prepared to stop him from getting it. This mutual preparation reveals that the bearer of the crimson mantle has gone for that gate at least once in the past, possibly more often since the Bearer became significant enough to earn a permanent place on the Sapphire Guard's hit list.

3) If there was a standing prophesy that said that a red cloaked goblin would threaten all-creation by seeking out the gates, don't you think that would have been mentioned during the trial which involved a red cloaked goblin working with a lich who captured one of the gates?

[Sarco_Phage]

Yes there is a prophecy. See page 10.

"there is one among you who threatens the very foundation of creation itself "

How is that a prophecy? That just sounds like the Paladins being their usual Paladin-y selves, talking entirely in dire, sweeping pronouncements. All they know from their Lord is that one of the Goblins is dangerous - that's it.

In fact, it's entirely possible that everything they know about the danger comes from the fact that Soon fought the Bearer once, and told his successor.

[Ron Miel]

3) If there was a standing prophesy that said that a red cloaked goblin would threaten all-creation by seeking out the gates ...

No, I think the prophecy said that someone in that goblin village would threaten creation. The prophecy did not mention that it was the wearer of the red cloak, hence the need to kill everyone there.


.... don't you think that would have been mentioned during the trial which involved a red cloaked goblin working with a lich who captured one of the gates?

Which trial do you mean? I don't see the relevance to the trial of the OOTS by Shojo.

[FujinAkari]

No, I think the prophecy said that someone in that goblin village would threaten creation. The prophecy did not mention that it was the wearer of the red cloak, hence the need to kill everyone there.

Then why did they yell "The bearer of the crimson mantle!" and all bumrush him? :)


Which trial do you mean? I don't see the relevance to the trial of the OOTS by Shojo.

That's because you've forgotten that the Sapphire Guard went there SPECIFICALLY because of the crimson mantle, which makes the fact that Xykon was working with said bearer enormously significant.

[Zevox]

Except that it WASN'T a current factual situation. The wearer of the mantle at the time didn't show any evidence of threatening creation, or even of looking for gates. He was just the spiritual leader of a small village, and probably fairly low level.
Except that we know otherwise since we know how the Crimson Mantle works. We saw that with Redcloak - upon donning it you learn of the Dark One's Plan, and those that wear it are tasked with carrying out this Plan. There is no reason whatsoever to assume that Redcloak's predecessor was any exception to this. Especially when his departing spirit told Redcloak to take the Mantle and "Do what must be done so that this does not happen again."

Zevox

[HappyBlanket]

Or, to summarize and clarify, the point being made is that OoTS, like the classical Greek mythology, has prophecies which are fulfilled because people tried to prevent their fulfillment (and thus was irony born).

Ah, I see now. I thought the thread was made to discuss something or whatever.
...Granted, we are technically discussing something now. It's a rather significant tangent, but I suppose it's worth talking about.

edit: To contribute to the topic: I imagine some divinations and maybe Commune would have been cast, but a prophecy is certainly one way of doing it. I personally favor the divinations though, in conjunction with what Soon already knew.

[Sholos]

the thing is that in greek stories if something was prophesised to happen it would happen no matter what
once you accept that you then realize not all of the prohecies in oots have really happened thus while a good point i feel it may be invalid

You're referring to the prophecies about Belkar's death and Durkon's posthumous return to his homeland, correct?