1 level monk dip versus superior unarmed strike?

[vageta31]

I was wondering how a 1 level monk dip would work with superior unarmed strike. Since SUS essentially gives any character a monk like damage progression, but at a slower rate, how would it work if you also took one monk level?

For instance. Take one monk level and get your unarmed strike at 1d6 (already better than someone taking SUS which I think starts at 1d4). Then take carmendine monk and use the +2 unarmed strike level progression every day and add in superior unarmed strike. So now we have 1 level of monk that counts as monk level 7 (monk +1, carmendine +2, SUS +4). Now we don't take anymore monk levels, how does the unarmed damage progress? Does it not progress at all until it reaches whatever it's at with the +7 monk levels? 1d10 I think... or does it progress starting at the highest damage on the chart?

It may seem a waste to take the monk level at all, but you do get some free feats whereas the previous option you'd have to take IUS and SUS anyways. And at least with the monk level you get some saves and can swap out flurry for decisive strike which is at least somewhat more useful than flurry would be. Not to mention your fists are now considered natural attacks and quality for improved natural weapon feat, whereas someone doing just SUS still has regular fists.

[Elric VIII]

It won't increase past your maximum Monk level. It acts differently for people that have Monk vs people that don't.

Although I'm not sure how it would stack with a Monk's Belt thrown in there, since they both increase your effective Monk level (there may be overlap issues).

[vageta31]

Ok how about this. If I took unarmed swordsage then basically my unarmed strike progresses as a monk's. So if I took superior unarmed strike I'd assume by the wording that it'd also give me +4 to my damage progression just as if I were a monk? And since I would have monk fists would improved natural weapon also benefit the unarmed swordsage?

I'm assuming yes to both since giving up light armor for a monk's damage progression would assume that he has the same fists as a monk. Or else it doesn't seem like a fair trade off. Otherwise the simple fix is to take one level of monk, then unarmed swordsage and get the best of both worlds.

[Elric VIII]

There's no official rules for Unarmed Swordsage, but what you suggest is the standard assumption. Monk's Unarmed Strike ability and progression, along with changing Wis to AC to function without armor. Plus, allowing classes that stack with Monk to stack with Swordsage.

Imp Nat Attack does indeed work with fists.


Although, if you're going to go for Swordsage, I would recommend Superior Unarmed Strike and keeping your ability to wear armor. The eventual special abilities (Fortification, etc) and various nice armor crystals will benefit you more than a slightly larger unarmed damage die. If you're worried about the max Dex bonus, Mithral Celestial Armor (DMG 220) has a +10 max bonus, costs 26k gp, and lets you fly 1/day (EDIT: also ACP of 0).

[vageta31]

That was the conundrum I was facing... Give up my light armor to get my unarmed strike damage up as high as possible. Or keep my light armor and just use SUS and deal with the smaller damage. My concept is to play a swordsman that complements his swordfighting with unarmed strikes. Essentially striking with his sword, then following up with a kick/elbow/headbutt. That way I'd never be unarmed even if I didn't have my weapon out or had it taken away from me, and it'd work beautifully with snap kick.

I'm a first level Rogue ready to level up, so the sneak attack damage works perfectly with snap kick as I'd always be able to get a standard attack + snap kick in any round even if I had to move first, and both attacks would get SA dice. Combined with assassin's stance and/or more Rogue levels and shadow blade this would add up quickly. If I went unarmed swordsage I'd even suspect I could throw in the ascetic Rogue feat and allow the unarmed damage to progress as well.

Thanks for the info, I'm still a new player but I'm learning a lot every day I hang on these boards.

[Elric VIII]

I like that idea, since you can capitalize on mobility. You might find that taking SUS with a few levels of Swordsage on a mostly Rogue base would work. If you're low on feats I would recommend a level of Fighter over Monk. If you take 2 non SS levels before your 2nd level in SS you can get a level 2 stance instead of a 2nd level 1 stance.

If you want to really work with the mobility aspect you could take a few levels in Scout, then take Swift Ambusher (stack Scout and Rogue levels for SA and skirmish), still with a main focus on Rogue.

Although a mostly Swordsage base is great as well, since you get all those nice Shadow Hand teleports to set up flanks.

EDIT:
Also, consider at least 3 levels in Rogue for the Penetrating Strike ACF from Dungeonscape in order to deal 1/2 damage to SA-immune foes.

If you do this and take enought SS levels to get a second instance of evasion, try to see if you can trade the SS one for a Monk ACF called Invisible Fist (Exemplars of Evil). It lets you become invisible as a swift action once per 3 rounds, unlimited times per day.



Thanks for the info, I'm still a new player but I'm learning a lot every day I hang on these boards.
On a side note: I was in the same boat as you about a year ago. My first character was a level 9 Wizard Evoker, banning Transmutation and Conjuration (seriously) with 2x Toughness, Point Blank Shot, and Rapid Shot. Now I actually know how the game works thanks to GitP.

[vageta31]

I kind of like the scout idea, if only due to the combination of snap kick and the skirmish damage. Since normally using spring attack you'd only get one hit, snap kick would fix this. You'd always get your 2nd attack while moving and skirmish dice added to it.

[Rodimal]

It won't increase past your maximum Monk level. It acts differently for people that have Monk vs people that don't.

Although I'm not sure how it would stack with a Monk's Belt thrown in there, since they both increase your effective Monk level (there may be overlap issues).

It doesn't stack, but in one game I allowed it to. Big -but awesomely fun- mistake. My wife's 10th level Monk was doing 4d6+6 points of damage per punch. At 15th, right before we stopped the campaign, she one flurried an Advanced Water Weird on/in her own turf. Something like 143 points of damage. Ouch.


Out

[Elric VIII]

I kind of like the scout idea, if only due to the combination of snap kick and the skirmish damage. Since normally using spring attack you'd only get one hit, snap kick would fix this. You'd always get your 2nd attack while moving and skirmish dice added to it.

Here's a Scout/Ranger/Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190296) character I designed for a friend that used Flyby Attack and Pounce. It may give you some inspiration.

[Curmudgeon]

The best possible return from Superior Unarmed Strike comes with no Monk levels, and with a Small (or smaller) size character. Essentially, Superior Unarmed Strike gives you the unarmed damage of a Small Monk through level 19. That's very respectable for one feat. (You can always buy Bracers of Striking to grant you the Improved Unarmed Strike prerequisite.)

The worst possible return from Superior Unarmed Strike comes with a 1-level Monk dip, because that will never net you increased unarmed damage without more Monk levels.

[Cog]

Here's a Scout/Ranger/Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190296) character I designed for a friend that used Flyby Attack and Pounce. It may give you some inspiration.
Note that Flyby Attack and Diving Charge don't mix easily, so you can't dive, pounce, and fly away without getting more actions somehow.

[Elric VIII]

Note that Flyby Attack and Diving Charge don't mix easily, so you can't dive, pounce, and fly away without getting more actions somehow.

A dive attack counts as a charge and Flyby says you can make a dive attack. Am I missing something there?

[Cog]

A dive attack counts as a charge and Flyby says you can make a dive attack. Am I missing something there?
The fact that Flyby Attack only says you can dive, and says nothing about a diving attack; the mention of dive is in regard to the move action. The feat explicitly gives you a move action and a standard action, while allowing you to take that standard in the middle of the move; however, they're still separate actions, which disqualifies you for a charge (as that's a full-round action, which dive attacks don't change).

It's possible that they intended to include dive attacks as an exception to the move/standard breakdown that Flyby Attack otherwise requires. Diving doesn't seem to come up much otherwise, so this isn't an unreasonable assumption, even. If you take it that way, though, the diving attack ability only lets you use claws or talons. Diving Charge is a separate ability, but the benefit of it refers you to the charging rules rather than the diving attack rules, so it wouldn't be included in that exception.