[3.5] 3 Humans, an Elf, and... a Succubus!?! Help...

[AnonymousD&Der]

Butt kicking has been fun, but with a few members needing to switch out and a couple joining in, we're doing a new campaign at level 1, at least until the others can join in and we can sub in some pcs to join them.

Here's the thing. One of the players wants to be a Succubus. Or at least part Succubus. 4 Level 1 Characters, and a Level 1 Character who's also a Succubus. Yeah...

Adding to the issues is that one player is -HYPER- Anti Homebrew. And another player is a Rules Lawyer.

I'm basically DM at this point, but I'm not sure what would keep everyone happy.

The Rules Lawyer is so Core Only (I don't want to start a fight over this, but what exactly -is- Core again? Counting Player's Handbook 2 alone gives room for at least 3 different series of books to be added to what could be considered Core) shutting him up takes half a session (he's still a good kid, so kicking him out isn't the solution. He usually relents so long as we can show him where we're getting our stuff).

The Homebrew Hater is ZEALOUS about modifying things, since he doesn't get to Twink his character (as if people who can use Arcane Spells need Twinking), so it's gotta be something real.

But I'm not ready to flat out say "No, you don't get to be a Succubus or anything like it. Pick a base race or be an NPC". She was our former DM, and she's nice. Plus, I'm a softie.

Is their -anything- in any of the books that would make it so that the neophyte party could have one of these amoungst them?

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs15/f/2007/072/2/5/Morrigan__the_succubus_by_TheZe.jpg

A +0 Template that would simulate the abilities of a Succubi, or possibly clarification of the rules for leveling up and removing templates (which always confused me, and saddened the Cleric who wished to be part Angel) would be awesome.

Thanks in advance for the assistance!

Google Safe Search. Moderate. :smalleek:

[Mordokai]

Savage Species for succubus progression? It's not core and it's basically 3.0, but I don't think you'll be getting any closer.

[tanderson11]

You probably aren't going to find any core material to help you as your rules lawyer seems to insist. Your best bet is to try and convince him to allow you to use this monster based class:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7951939&postcount=29

[Eldariel]

You could make her a Lesser Tiefling, except reversing it so they get Cha-bonus and Int penalty instead of the contrary.


Really tho, what defines a Succubus?

1) Extremely charming, magical seductresses. Sounds like couple of spell-likes to me. Have her play a sorceress and tell her to pick up spells in accordance to a succubus's kit. Charm Person is level 1, for example. Alter Self is level 2. You can pick up the Energy Drain-like effect level 4 latest, in Enervation.
2) Demonic shapechangers. Have her play a Lesser Tiefling or perhaps a Lesser Aasimar (they have a Charisma-bonus after all). Or hell, Star Elf; anything with a Charisma-bonus and perhaps a hint of demonic ancestry. Homebrew is one thing, refluffing another.

[vikingofdoom]

Savage Species has the Succubus monster class, and while it is not core, simply explain to the Rules Lawyer that you are allowing the use of it for the campaign.

[LOTRfan]

Savage Species has a savage progression. Basically, you start out as a 1st level Succubus (its your race and your class), and once you reach a certain level, you can start taking levels in regular classes.

EDIT: Ninja'd twice..

[ryu]

Maybe make her the escaped somehow permanently polymorphed test subject of a mad wizard? So long as we cut out the seduction feeding quirk and any of the more overpowered things a succubi gets it could work. Either that or ask her if she's okay hiding an evil character and make something similar to sabine from oots. Pick what you like.

[Blackjackg]

If you're looking for a standard race/class progression, the best you're likely to find is a Lesser Tiefling, using the Tiefling from Monster Manual and the Lesser Planetouched template from Player's Guide to Faerun. It's a little bit overpowered if the character happens to take an intelligence-casting class, but comes in at +0 LA.

Savage Species has a 12-level monster class for playing a succubus from level 1.

Edit: Epic Ninjas jumped me six times.

[Urpriest]

The Homebrew guy and the Core-only guy aren't co-DMs or something, right? They want you to be DM, right? That kind of means they trust your choices on these matters and will shut up when you make a decision.

Anyway, appeasing them completely probably won't work. There are two methods that will get you close:

1. A Tiefling is rather succubus-y. Letting a character start as a Tiefling in a 1st level party means you've basically got a 2nd level character in a 1st level party, which isn't that bad, and used to be how level adjustment worked in the Forgotten Realms. This will piss off the rules lawyer side of the rules lawyer, but appease his core-only attitude.

2. The aforementioned Succubus Savage Progression is the most RAW way of being a 1st level succubus. You'll have to update it to 3.5, which shouldn't be too tricky if you're careful about it. This will appease the rules lawyer side of the rules lawyer while potentially pissing off his core-only attitude. It's actually one of the more well-regarded Savage Progressions, so you won't be gimping her character either.

Either way the anti-Homebrew guy is left alone.

Also, Core usually means either the PHB/DMG/MM, or the SRD. It almost never includes the PHBII and DMGII unless someone's being weird.

[Mordokai]

2. The aforementioned Succubus Savage Progression is the most RAW way of being a 1st level succubus. You'll have to update it to 3.5, which shouldn't be too tricky if you're careful about it. This will appease the rules lawyer side of the rules lawyer while potentially pissing off his core-only attitude. It's actually one of the more well-regarded Savage Progressions, so you won't be gimping her character either.

I played it in a game, not long ago, up to level five and it didn't need any update. On the top of my head, the only thing you need to change is changing damage reduction from +2 to cold iron(as standard per 3.5) and changing the way SR is applied. In 3.0, SR counted by hit dice, while in 3.5 it counts by level, and therefore succubus ends with somewhat higher SR.

From personal experience, I must say that I was very pleased with how the class played out and would play it again. It is indeed quite balanced. However, don't attempt gestalt with it. That charisma bonus can break the game faster than Speedy Gonzales on acid.

[Frozen_Feet]

Look up Book of Erotic Fantasy. Have her be Thiefling Imagist.

[true_shinken]

How about a Diabolus from Dragon Compendium? IIRC, they are devils without LA or something like that.

[Flickerdart]

Start with a Lesser Tiefling, then take the Half-Fiend transition template (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040319a). Only a +3 LA total, and you get sweet demonic stuff. No Change Shape or energy drain, but that's easily solved with magic. Alternatively, start as a normal Tiefling and pay someone to Polymorph Any Object you into a Succubus as soon as you can afford it (only one casting is necessary - the duration factor is 11 at the least).

[Noneoyabizzness]

Well savage species is considered by some to be 3.25 like fiend folio.

You might be suited with that book for sucubus levels

[Reluctance]

Savage Species would be the ideal, as said by approximately everybody.

A bloodline (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) (devil fits better than demon here, despite the technical classification of succubi) allows a moderate gain of powers without taking too much away from the main build. It'd be even more succubusy if you traded the Darkness SLA for Charm Person, and told the anti-homebrewer to deal with it.

Either a themed sorcerer or a warlock could easily be played up as being part succubus. Warlock is non-core, but again, players can become much more agreeable when the alternative is themselves on the other side of the screen. A polite "if you don't like it, you're free to run the next game" can handle a lot of problems.

[Noneoyabizzness]

After a quick search one issue with the succubi in ss gets moreabilities based on 3.0 succubi.

3.5 succubi lack some. You can try tweak it or just let a pc get more than normal succubi get

[Haarkla]

Here's the thing. One of the players wants to be a Succubus. Or at least part Succubus. 4 Level 1 Characters, and a Level 1 Character who's also a Succubus. Yeah...

Adding to the issues is that one player is -HYPER- Anti Homebrew. And another player is a Rules Lawyer ..... The Rules Lawyer is so Core Only
I would suggest using a standard tiefling, except with a Charisma bonus and no Int bonus, and delaying the Darkness and Dex bonus until 2nd level.

[gbprime]

I happen to have an Incubus (Succubus) character build handy for a player that asked for one once. It uses the Savage Species Progression plus Marshall and Mindspy after level 12.

Basically the succubus is kind of useless in anything other than a negotiation or social situation until around level 10. But by level 12 you're very useful, especially if you take the Life Drain feat from Libris Mortis, which adds your CHA modifer (Easily +12) to your Energy Drain damage. So you can drain 17 HP each round from someone and gain that as temporary HP.

Then it takes off from there. At 13 - 15, take levels in Marshall. Two minor auras in particular... one adds your CHA modifier in damage to all allies who flank their opponents (giving your party all +12 to damage much of the time) and of course Motivate Charisma, which doubles your CHA bonus to skills to +24.

Afterward I put in 5 levels of Mindspy for the BAB and the ability to put that at will Detect Thoughts to work as a combat buff.

Oh, and two more things... (1) Light Armor Proficiency as a 1st level feat is a lifesaver, and (2) if there's any character that can benefit from the Embrace the Dark Chaos / Shun the Dark Chaos conga line, it's a demon... so visit those "grants a feat" sites as many times as you can regardless of the feat bestowed. :smallwink:

[Epsilon Rose]

Honestly there have been enough suggestions before me (and they're basically what I'd say) that I'm not going to comment on that part.

What I do want to say is that you should probably tell those to players that you're the DM and it's you're prerogative to decide what is and isn't allowed and if you allow something for one player they're welcome to use it for them selves or make reasonable requests.
Even if one of the above suggestions works with out stepping on their toes (I'm not sure if any of them are strictly speaking "core", where's the tiefling from?) it's probably in your best interest (and the best interest of anyone who DMs after you) to have well defined DM powers and creative control over the setting (but not their characters). If they only want to use core that's their choice, if someone else wants to use a homebrew class or play a psion and the DM's ok with it then they shouldn't be allowed to tell that other player they can't or overrule the DM.

Edit: why does the core only guy demand core only?
Edit Edit: Also, rules lawyering shouldn't be allowed to take up game time (if it should ever be allowed). You might want to impose a penalty for looking at another players sheet or arguing with the DM. Normally I'd consider that a pretty silly thing two do but taking up half a session to argue is pretty crass and I'm willing to bet that if he loses a level each time he does it he'll stop fairly quickly (or atleast pick his battles, which might actually be a good thing a bit of external regulation is not terrible).

[PersonMan]

(I'm not sure if any of them are strictly speaking "core", where's the tiefling from?)

Tiefling is core. It's found in the MMI, under Planetouched.

[Flickerdart]

I happen to have an Incubus (Succubus) character build handy for a player that asked for one once. It uses the Savage Species Progression plus Marshall and Mindspy after level 12.

Basically the succubus is kind of useless in anything other than a negotiation or social situation until around level 10. But by level 12 you're very useful, especially if you take the Life Drain feat from Libris Mortis, which adds your CHA modifer (Easily +12) to your Energy Drain damage. So you can drain 17 HP each round from someone and gain that as temporary HP.
17 damage per round at level 12 isn't exactly "good" or "adequate". The real combat deal of the Succubus is the suggestion SLA, because it essentially lets you lock someone down and kiss them to death. The problem is that this also locks you down, so it's only really viable against one or two enemies unless you can convince your DM that the victims will do nothing while waiting for the follow-up kiss (though a suggestion before-hand asking them to "not go anywhere" solves that).

[Eldariel]

17 damage per round at level 12 isn't exactly "good" or "adequate". The real combat deal of the Succubus is the suggestion SLA, because it essentially lets you lock someone down and kiss them to death. The problem is that this also locks you down, so it's only really viable against one or two enemies unless you can convince your DM that the victims will do nothing while waiting for the follow-up kiss (though a suggestion before-hand asking them to "not go anywhere" solves that).

This is why I hate monster classes. They're just plain weak, and unwieldy and illogical ("I can't use my abilities until level X; wait, what?"). Oh, and they force you to deal with the major stupidity that is Level Adjustment. And draw upon bad 3.0 sources.

Again, Sorceress of some fiendish race (feel free to pick Outsider Wings-feat if desired) is a pretty good PC approximation of a Succubus with 100% less fail, given you take the appropriate spell selection.


Charm Person-types, Disguise Self-types and then some energy drains. Mostly enchantment, necromancy and transmutation tho. Don't forget the trademark Succubus teleports and company.

And hell, you can do a decent approximation of the Summon Demons with appropriate Summon Monster-spells, and Planar Bindings all of which you're pretty good in due to high natural Charisma.

[gbprime]

17 damage per round at level 12 isn't exactly "good" or "adequate". The real combat deal of the Succubus is the suggestion SLA, because it essentially lets you lock someone down and kiss them to death. The problem is that this also locks you down, so it's only really viable against one or two enemies unless you can convince your DM that the victims will do nothing while waiting for the follow-up kiss (though a suggestion before-hand asking them to "not go anywhere" solves that).

Right, I wasn't saying they're good because of 17 HP of energy drain, that's just a way to optimize it. The strength is suggestion and charm monster at will. (Oh, and throw in the Combat Charm feat from Dragon Mag Compendium, then you and your friends can beat on the charmed person and his allies and he gets no bonus against your charm.)

Causing measurable HP damage while also inflicting a negative level while also giving your self a bucket of temporary HP is merely quite nice.

[Noneoyabizzness]

Ok really looked at the change btwn 3.0 and 3.5 succubi

1) use ss with the additional power. Still weaker then a pc but if she was your em she knows its weak but fun.
2)3.5 it which is silly to hit a weakness with the nerf bat. But suggestion built into energy drain is ok
3)changeling with a homebrewd version of demon blooded from ua. This will make the least people happy, but it will try to give succubi flavor and keep on par with the party powerwise.

Orrr
Just say no. As a dm she will understand the group dynamic

[Asarlai]

Best I can find is the Tiefling player race in the 3.5 Planar Handbook. But it has a +1 level adjustment, so either players would be uneven or you'd have to start at level 2 or higher.

Personally, I'd just say, "Sorry, you can't really be a Succubus, that would mess with the game too much."

[Eldariel]

Seriously, just refluff Sorcerer. I know I keep saying it but that's 'cause it's so darn simple, obvious and functional, and for whatever reason everybody else wants to work some incredibly convoluted build involving monster classes from sources most likely not on the table for this game, and the rest want to say "can't be done".

Since Succubi have more skillz, maybe make it a Rogue/Sorcerer multiclass (Rogue 1/Sorcerer 4/Unseen Seer, or if going Core-only, Rogue 1/Sorcerer 6/Assassin 1/Arcane Trickster ->) for extra skillpoints and some martial prowess. But seriously; pick Charm Person, Sleep, Disguise Self on level 1, alongside usual stuff like Detect Magic and company. Alter Self, Hypnotism, Daze Monster, perhaps self-buffs like False Life and company on level 2.

Suggestion & co. on 3 and then Enervation & co. on 4, and eventually some Summon Monsters that can be used to Summon Demons alongside all the Dominate-line effects, probably Planar Bindings and Teleports and Plane Shifts and you have a perfectly functional Succubus-kit on a PC character and your players never need to know the difference. Use a LAless Tiefling and life is good.

[Noneoyabizzness]

Dunno why I am trying to figure this out so much

Ok changling who be the be the best la0:race fitting a succubi.
New suggestion.
Favored soul-now this is rulebending. Favored soul take malcanthet as your deity with her access to the temptation domain you have a reason to allow suggestion as a divine spell. The class will grant wings dr and energy resists.

[only1doug]

Here's the thing. One of the players wants to be a Succubus. Or at least part Succubus. 4 Level 1 Characters, and a Level 1 Character who's also a Succubus. Yeah...

rule of cool, if you can find a way then allow it. As has been suggested by others Savage Species contains rules for playing from L1. I would examine the progression closely and alter it to fit your preference rather than use it exactly as written.



Adding to the issues is that one player is -HYPER- Anti Homebrew. And another player is a Rules Lawyer.

I'm basically DM at this point, but I'm not sure what would keep everyone happy.


Start by explaining that you are GMing for this, a few Houserules will be allowed but not too many.



The Rules Lawyer is so Core Only (I don't want to start a fight over this, but what exactly -is- Core again? Counting Player's Handbook 2 alone gives room for at least 3 different series of books to be added to what could be considered Core) shutting him up takes half a session (he's still a good kid, so kicking him out isn't the solution. He usually relents so long as we can show him where we're getting our stuff).


Core is PHB, Monster manual 1, DMG.
PHB2 is not core.
You should specify which sources you are allowing, so everyone has equal access from the beginning, the player may not like this, when he GM's he can choose allowed sources.



The Homebrew Hater is ZEALOUS about modifying things, since he doesn't get to Twink his character (as if people who can use Arcane Spells need Twinking), so it's gotta be something real.

But I'm not ready to flat out say "No, you don't get to be a Succubus or anything like it. Pick a base race or be an NPC". She was our former DM, and she's nice. Plus, I'm a softie.


again, state that you will allow certain house rules but everything must be Ok'd by you first. He doesn't have to allow houserules when he GM's.
If he wants something to be adjusted you will look at it and probably allow it unless it will cause a major balance issue.



Is their -anything- in any of the books that would make it so that the neophyte party could have one of these amoungst them?

not in core, but yes there is.



A +0 Template that would simulate the abilities of a Succubi, or possibly clarification of the rules for leveling up and removing templates (which always confused me, and saddened the Cleric who wished to be part Angel) would be awesome.

Thanks in advance for the assistance!

Google Safe Search. Moderate. :smalleek:

good luck and have fun.

Remember that the GM gets to choose the rules, the players get to choose if they want to play under those rules.

Remember that unless a another players actions directly affect the PC of the rules lawyer it really doesn't matter what his interpretation of the rules for it are.

[JeminiZero]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this yet:

The Otherworldly feat [PGtF] turns a humanoid into a Native Outsider. Slap it on Changeling [ECS], and you have a shapeshifting outsider with +0 LA. (Note, it uses srouces from 2 entirely seperate campaign settings, but is otherwise rules legal).

[Noneoyabizzness]

dunno about otherworldy if you want to spend a feat for darkvision go with eyes of the demon from FC1 then you can add in other abyssal inheritor feats for more boosts to unarmed damage natural armor and the like

[stainboy]

Refluff Dragonfire Adept into basically a warlock. That gets you at-will Alter Self, Charm, and a pair of wings. Or just let her take Humanoid Shape as a warlock. (If the rules-lawyer or the anti-homebrewer complain, you're the DM, your house, your rules.)


About Lesser Tiefling: also throw on Magic-Blooded to fix the Charisma penalty.


Which succubus attributes does she want, by the way? In order of difficulty:

-magical seduction powers
-claws
-alternate form
-Outsider type
-permanent wings
-level-drain + Suggestion by kiss or "act of passion" (mechanically, by grapple)
-actually being an Abyssal exemplar on Grazzt's payroll who respawns when she dies off her native plane
-full Succubus powers, including at-will Greater Teleport.

[Half-Orc Rage]

You're the DM, you decide if you want to be core, if you want to be homebrew, or if you even want to allow the player to be a succubus. I don't know what it is with these boards and people saying everything has to be RAW and the DM can't run the game the way they want.

I say go ahead and use one of the balanced ways already mentioned and let the player try it, provided it doesn't disrupt your game too badly.

[Urpriest]

You're the DM, you decide if you want to be core, if you want to be homebrew, or if you even want to allow the player to be a succubus. I don't know what it is with these boards and people saying everything has to be RAW and the DM can't run the game the way they want.

I say go ahead and use one of the balanced ways already mentioned and let the player try it, provided it doesn't disrupt your game too badly.

A lot of people have given this kind of advice, but here's something to consider: many groups are friends first, gaming groups second. It sounds like the OP's group is a bunch of people who all want to play together and are hashing out what they do or don't want to do. So there are certain styles of game some of them want, and they have to compromise to get a game they'll all mostly enjoy. The DM ends up being just as much a part of the compromise as everyone else. If the other players agreed to join the game because there wouldn't be any homebrew or splats and there start being homebrew and splats they're going to feel cheated.

That said, I think the best solution is not to simply give in to these guys' demands, but to convince them of your point of view. They're rational human beings, and more than that they're your friends. If you're right it should be possible to show them that you're right.

[Veyr]

My first inclination was to post something along the lines of "Tell the other two players that you're DMing and when you're DMing, they're not allowed to dictate what is or isn't badwrongfun." Because I take serious objection to both their attitudes regarding the game. But the OP didn't seem interested in that kind of answer and it seemed like that wouldn't really be a helpful thing to add. For better or worse, he's accepted their positions and is trying to accommodate them.

[Tokuhara]

My suggestion, if there is an issue, is to allow the player to pay a Succubus by the rules dictated by savage species, but allow her to be CR 1, not level one. What this allows is for her to be viable in lower-tier, while still being deadly in higher tier. Now, with some monsters, this could be a problem (such as the Flesh Golem, who at CR5 is essentially unkillable), but for something like a succubus, isn't that big of a deal.

I am in a campaign currently that uses this rule and it works wonders for monsterous characters. We have a blue dragon and a vampire incubus along with a mostly normal party (we have a Half-Dragon Blackguard and a Raptoran Fighter, but, but primarily normal) and they are VERY viable. Heck, the dragon pulls primary aggro while the Incubus suggests the enemies into bad situations.

Funny thing is last session, the Incubus unintentionally killed my character. He summoned a balor, who used his immoliation and killed my character with it. I failed the save the DM made everyone roll.

[AnonymousD&Der]

Savage Species -rocks-. And there was oddly enough little complaint with a few changes to how the Multiclassing Succubus Charater would work...

Awesome sauce win is Awesome sauce!

[Metahuman1]

Start with a few level's under there belt, helps make them less likely to be killed by the random encounter with a deer or the Kobolt with a low quality cross-bow or the Size: Tiny Spider. So for that alone it's always worth it.

Use UA and maybe some bonus XP to let her buy off the Succubus LA.

Allow anyone else to pick a creature or Template form MM and buy off the LA.


Tell the other two, "Ok the creatures are all Core on this. Here's official WOtC published material that's not Dragon Magazine that says you can do this. Now, I want to allow this option becuase a party of all elves, dwarfs, humans and halflings just sounds boring right now, and I think this will pep it up, plus since your so powerful based on what your characters were born as, this gives you the option to not necessarily have to build in an optimized way, thus allowing for more RP emphasis. "

There, player 1 get's her Succubus, Player Two get's his no home brew's and Player three get's his rules as written and almost get's his Core only. Almost everyone got exactly what they wanted, and the one who didn't only had to handle one none core book, which strikes me as a reasonable allowance.

I've played games were no one was playing core races but was not having to worry as much about hit dice and La progressions cause it was basically made a granted at start of game. There actually a LOT of fun! (Besides, if Core only person plays a Wizard, Cleric, or Druid, then no matter what happens, he's a Teir 1 character, he's plenty powerful enough to keep pace with what ever the rest of the party does even if he stays to core.)