Death Throes as a feat

[ffone]

Are there feats/templates for 'death throes' type effects (i.e. explode on death like a Balor; great for dramatic and spiteful BBEG death).

IIRC the Dragonlance Campaign Setting has one (but for draconians only?)

Savage Species (one of the oldest and least well balanced manuals) has Final Strike, which has elemental subtype reqs/themes. The damage of these feats is 1d6 / HD up to 20d6, with secondary effects, most of which are an additional 1d6 per 2 levels (which, although it doesn't say it, one would hope caps at 10d6).

The save is the usual; reflex half at 10 + 1/2 hd + Con mod. for "big pile o' HD" monsters this is quite high, and you could be looking at 30d6 dmg well before CR 20. Fro example with the Greater Elementals you'd have the 30d6 (or 20d6 + status effect) at DC 24 or 25, at CR 9.

Would you increase the CR of a creature with this feat? For a PC it's worse than useless (hurts allies, and you'd rather pick a feat that helps you not die at all) but for a monster....well I'd much less rather fight something with this feat than an extra copy of Toughness or Improved Natural Armor.

Also - suggestions on a check type (Knowledge probably) and DC to recognize that a particular monster has this ability?

[PersonMan]

Well, the only precedent I know of is the Conflaguration Ooze. There is a sidebar with stats for a death throes version, which gives it +1 CR for only 3d6 fire 3d6 bludgeoning(although it does include a possibility for Con damage and more fire damage).

As for how to recognize it...well, that'd be hard to say. How do you recognize if something will explode or not? I'd say that a Knowledge check could get it, at a fairly high DC. Probably some bonuses for a good Spot check, since I can't imagine it being more than a few minor details that hint at the thing exploding...

[HalfDragonCube]

You could have a contingent spell of Explosive Runes set to be cast on your eyes when you go past -9hp.

Splatch!

[ffone]

Well, the only precedent I know of is the Conflaguration Ooze. There is a sidebar with stats for a death throes version, which gives it +1 CR for only 3d6 fire 3d6 bludgeoning(although it does include a possibility for Con damage and more fire damage).

As for how to recognize it...well, that'd be hard to say. How do you recognize if something will explode or not? I'd say that a Knowledge check could get it, at a fairly high DC. Probably some bonuses for a good Spot check, since I can't imagine it being more than a few minor details that hint at the thing exploding...

Thanks, that's a good reference point.

Maybe +2 CR. Two enemies of CR X give the same XP as one of CR X+2, so I often try to think of CR +2 bumps as 'would I rather fight two of this or one of that..."

And maybe cap the effects to use min(HD, CR, 20) rather than min*HD, 20). I note the CR 20 Balor's death throes deal 100 dmg, and 30d6 has a mean of 105.

[Zonugal]

Are there feats/templates for 'death throes' type effects (i.e. explode on death like a Balor; great for dramatic and spiteful BBEG death).

IIRC the Dragonlance Campaign Setting has one (but for draconians only?)

Savage Species (one of the oldest and least well balanced manuals) has Final Strike, which has elemental subtype reqs/themes. The damage of these feats is 1d6 / HD up to 20d6, with secondary effects, most of which are an additional 1d6 per 2 levels (which, although it doesn't say it, one would hope caps at 10d6).

The save is the usual; reflex half at 10 + 1/2 hd + Con mod. for "big pile o' HD" monsters this is quite high, and you could be looking at 30d6 dmg well before CR 20. Fro example with the Greater Elementals you'd have the 30d6 (or 20d6 + status effect) at DC 24 or 25, at CR 9.

Would you increase the CR of a creature with this feat? For a PC it's worse than useless (hurts allies, and you'd rather pick a feat that helps you not die at all) but for a monster....well I'd much less rather fight something with this feat than an extra copy of Toughness or Improved Natural Armor.

Also - suggestions on a check type (Knowledge probably) and DC to recognize that a particular monster has this ability?

While most of the secondary effects from Final Strike are weak, the earth subtype has earthquake (a 7th level spell) which really adds a level of destruction to a character. You might have brought down the boss but you now have to escape the dungeon before it topples down upon you.

[Darrin]

There's the Destruction Retribution feat in Libris Mortis. 1d6 + 1d6/2 HD negative energy damage, and it's uncapped. Undead only, though.

You can use a Skull Talisman or a Greater Glyph Seal to cast death throes on your target. There's also a similar spell, fatal flame, in Complete Scoundrel that's potionable. Actually, might be better in a wand... cast it on your target 50 times for 50 x 20 = 1000 fire damage. Assuming multiple castings of fatal flame stack, and I suspect they don't.

There's also the Jade Phoenix Mage. Emerald Immolation is lots of fun.

[Runestar]

Would you increase the CR of a creature with this feat?

I think it definitely warrants a cr-increase. This feat is nuts, especially in the hands of elementals, which tend to have a lot of HD for their cr. A cr11 elder elemental would deal an extra 20d6 damage upon death. This can spell a TPK for most 10th-11th lv parties.

Even if PCs are aware of this, they may not be able to fully utilise this knowledge, and may be forced to suck up the damage, though I suppose it can be mitigated (eg: everyone else runs for cover before the fighter or archer deals the final blow).

Between this and rapidstrike, it can really improve their damage potential. :smallamused:

[big teej]

as it doesn't seem anybody's mentioend this yet.


in the DMG II there is a potion that.... I can't remember the name of now.

but anyways, if you die within an hour of drinking the potion, your body explodes, dealing 5d6 damage to everything within 20 feet, (there is also a greater version that does 10d6)

I don't have my books handy, so I'm afraid I can't give the name/page number right now.

[ffone]

Nice find big_teej. I'd actually been looking for a similar thing for 'kamikaze mooks' and that fits the bill.

[Amphetryon]

Just for completeness, I'll list the Illumian's Final Utterance ability. I'm not aware of many non-abusive ways to make it useful, but it fits in the general schema of "cool stuff happens when you die."

[ffone]

Thanks, well check out. Come to think of it, illumians would fit the campaign theme (which partially involves the 'ancient, more advanced people' cliche).

[big teej]

Nice find big_teej. I'd actually been looking for a similar thing for 'kamikaze mooks' and that fits the bill.

did you find it? or do I need to look it up now that I have my books handy?

[Douglas]

There's a spell in Spell Compendium, I think actually named Death Throes, that does something like this. Personal range, somewhat long duration, if you die before the duration runs out it does a bunch of damage in an area around you. What's really nasty is that it's force damage with no save.

Personal range, though, so shenanigans are required to get it on anything other than a mid to high level caster.

[herrhauptmann]

There's a spell in Spell Compendium, I think actually named Death Throes, that does something like this. Personal range, somewhat long duration, if you die before the duration runs out it does a bunch of damage in an area around you. What's really nasty is that it's force damage with no save.

Personal range, though, so shenanigans are required to get it on anything other than a mid to high level caster.

Potion or scroll?
Custom wondrous item of Death throes, now anyone can blow themselves up. Even the truenamer.

[ffone]

oh geez you're right, the Death Throes spell is 1d8 / caster level with no save and no SR, and no damage die cap. And it's even a force effect so blinking/ethereal chars will be fully affected (and none of the energy resistances apply). At L20 it's pretty much 90 damage to everyone within 30', or 135 / 160 if the jerk decides to empower / maximize it. And at 1 hour / level it can last all day Extended almost by the time it can be cast at all.


did you find it? or do I need to look it up now that I have my books handy?

Yeah, thanks. Elixir of Reckoning.

The illumian's ability is atmospheric - no harmful effects, just the lingering voice of the dead character.

[Douglas]

oh geez you're right, the Death Throes spell is 1d8 / caster level with no save and no SR, and no damage die cap. And it's even a force effect so blinking/ethereal chars will be fully affected (and none of the energy resistances apply). At L20 it's pretty much 90 damage to everyone within 30', or 135 / 160 if the jerk decides to empower / maximize it. And at 1 hour / level it can last all day Extended almost by the time it can be cast at all.
Yeah, there are very very few defenses against it other than just not being in the area when it goes off. Though there is this one 9th level spell in Dragonlance Campaign Setting that I used to hilarious effect in a ridiculously high epic arena match. I'd made this near-invulnerable character with a devastating full attack routine who'd been beating everyone, and someone came up with suicide bombing with Death Throes and a ton of Crafted Contingent Death Throes as a backup plan for killing me. The damage total ended up somewhere around 9000, I think. Too bad for him, I'd included that Dragonlance CS spell in my buffs, which A) made me immune to force damage and B) reflected the damage back at him after converting it to sacred damage.:smallcool: His suicide bomb only resulted in his own corpse being pulverized even more thoroughly.

[Sims]

I think it just does 5 points of damage per HD.

Because the typical Balor has 20HD, and his Death Throes deals 100 points of damage. I don't think there is a feat, but you could just make one up. <:D