Is the psion supposed to be that powerful?

[Amridell]

Well, I had a player take some levels of psion for Talons of the Horned King and I've had some problems with him going crazy with fire. This guy is like me, a total pyromaniac, and, hence, is causing problems in an arctic adventure. But even he was surprised to look down at his character sheet and see:

Namehere
Illythiiri
Psion:4
Power points:30

The illythiiri is an elf subrace with psychic talent that I homebrewed. That is to say, three extra power points. But even if I took that away, and lowered his intellegence to 17 (it's 18, increased from being fourth level), it still goes to 27 points. He can manifest a huge amount of psychic energy before even need to sit down. What's worse, he went with psychokinesis as his discipline, and it's common knowledge (or so they think) that there's a white dragon in the module. He has more power points than the party has hitp points. So, can anyone help me before he outshines the rest?

P.S: He's not one to try to outshine them, but the rest will pressure him eventually, or he'll kill the party barbarian.

[Teln]

You want to know something really scary? If a psion with a psicrystal and the right feats and powers (especially Schism) really, really wants to, he can shatter the action economy and spend every single one of his power points in one round. This is referred to as a "Psionic Nova". And if you think that's bad, then I'm willing to bet your casters haven't started experimenting with metamagic yet....

[The Glyphstone]

He can spend 4 PP per attack, and only get 1 attack per round at that level. If he threatens the party, they should easily curbstomp him and his 4d4 HP.

Just be happy he didn't play a wizard or sorcerer instead. Pyrokineticists can blast, arcanists can do so much more.

Also, if there's a barbarian in your party, he should have more HP by himself than this psion has power points (15 at first level with a +3 con, 6.5/level x3, =34HP average).

[MammonAzrael]

Most important rule of psionics you may have missed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifesterLevel).


Manifester Level

The variables of a power’s effect often depend on its manifester level, which is equal to your psionic class level. A power that can be augmented for additional effect is also limited by your manifester level (you can’t spend more power points on a power than your manifester level). See Augment under Descriptive Text, below.

You can manifest a power at a lower manifester level than normal, but the manifester level must be high enough for you to manifest the power in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same manifester level.

In the event that a class feature or other special ability provides an adjustment to your manifester level, this adjustment applies not only to all effects based on manifester level (such as range, duration, and augmentation potential) but also to your manifester level check to overcome your target’s power resistance and to the manifester level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check).

Bolding mine.

[Amridell]

He can spend 4 PP per attack, and only get 1 attack per round at that level. If he threatens the party, they should easily curbstomp him and his 4d4 HP.

Just be happy he didn't play a wizard or sorcerer instead. Pyrokineticists can blast, arcanists can do so much more.

Also, if there's a barbarian in your party, he should have more HP by himself than this psion has power points (15 at first level with a +3 con, 6.5/level x3, =34HP average).

The problem isn't the power of his manifestions...it's the quantity. He's able to pretty much levitate and blast every encounter, and I can see that becoming a problem. He hates the barbarian, and if push comes to shove, the psion will surely win, likely laying waste to the party. The whole problem is that, while a fourth level wizard must rest frequently, this psion does not. I mean, a troll, ettin, hydra, even a dire demon bear has no response to flight. I just can see this becoming a huge problem, and would like to stop it before something terrible happens.

[Gnorman]

You're going to have to deal with constant flight sometime, might as well start now. Give that troll a dire bat pet. Won't stop the blasting, but it will at least make the psion feel less than invincible.

[Cheesy74]

You're right, brutes don't have a response to flight.

So stop making him fight brutes.

I'm about to insult you, so please try to not take this too personally. The problem here doesn't look to be his character - it's balanced and even a little weak. He is a low-level caster, after all, and he does need to rest to regain power points. The problem seems to be your inflexible DMing style. You need to have him face things capable of stuff besides melee or at least with flight speeds of their own. At level 4, this isn't too big of a problem.

Here, I'll offer some suggestions. You said it was an arctic adventure, so I'll just glance through Frostburn here.

Casters:
Give a glacier dwarf or frost folk some caster levels. They can easily take down a flying foe if necessary.

Flying creatures:
Giant owls and giant ravens (latter is in Frostburn) both can survive easily in arctic climates. They can also fly and thus tear your psion apart if they need to. Plus, no cold subtype. And hey, put something on top of them like the big brutes you had him fighting earlier. No more evading by flight.
Snowcloaks have a fly speed as well as some spell-likes to handle the rest of the party.

Other:
The Yuki-on-na can dispatch flying enemies with a few of their ranged abilities.


Any of those should do the trick (and this is just in Frostburn. Check out the monster manual). In summation, you're right, that tactic is unbeatable if he doesn't face any of the countless monsters that can beat it.
Change it up and he'll stop flying everywhere fairly fast.

EDIT:


The whole problem is that, while a fourth level wizard must rest frequently, this psion does not.
I would like some clarification on this. It sounds pretty iffy.

[Noneoyabizzness]

30 pp per day/4pp per maxed use=7.5 uses.

Wizards get free scaling on level 1 spells. Psions don't.

[Jack Zander]

Even with constant flight, doesn't the barbarian have a bow?

[Zonugal]

The problem isn't the power of his manifestions...it's the quantity. He's able to pretty much levitate and blast every encounter, and I can see that becoming a problem. He hates the barbarian, and if push comes to shove, the psion will surely win, likely laying waste to the party. The whole problem is that, while a fourth level wizard must rest frequently, this psion does not. I mean, a troll, ettin, hydra, even a dire demon bear has no response to flight. I just can see this becoming a huge problem, and would like to stop it before something terrible happens.

Adaptation is a lovely thing and perhaps some of your encounters could use a little dash of variety in their construction. Know you sight that flight has become a problem, but you also indicate that you are only throwing purely melee opponents against the party. This can be changed as to include a fair mix of melee & ranged opponents who work in unison. You also brought up how his blasting has become a problem. There are suitable defenses opponents could begin using in an attempt to neutralize that attack. Psions gets a very handy perk in that their blasting (I'll assume he's using Energy Missile) is adaptable to be changed to any energy type (so spells like Resist Energy and Protection From Energy will do very little). But you can always beef up an enemies defense towards ranged attacks (and if he's using Psionic Levitate than he should be deep in penalties to his ranged attacks).

But my favorite suggestion towards you is to begin using the unorthodox. If he should use Psionic Levitate at the beginning of the battle you have around a round before he's up to 20ft in the air. Suitable enough time for the boys of the Cave Bear Clan. Stat up some simple Neanderthal warriors trained & equipped with harpoons (enemies who are completely justifiable in an arctic setting). The moment that psion begins to float up you let loose with harpoon after another. If anything this will strike a bit of fear in his character who is now acting as a very, evident target for enemies. A standard 4th-level party should be able to encounter a group of six harpooners & two wolves. Flank with the wolves and let loose with the harpoons.

[erikun]

Your 4th level Psion, with 20 INT and a free feat for extra PP, can deal 30d6 damage in a day with Energy Ray.

A 4th level specialist Wizard, with 20 INT, can deal 16d6 + 24d4 (40 dice of damage) in one day.

I don't really see the Psion as very overpowered.


[EDIT] If the Psion likes blasting stuff, why not just include a few more things for him to blast? There's nothing stopping you from throwing a few extra Yetis or Winter Wolves in his direction to make him feel more awesome.

[Ravens_cry]

Even with constant flight, doesn't the barbarian have a bow?
Yeah, I mean, even if you don't do all that much damage, a barbarian with a good composite bow can at least contribute in some fashion.

[Zevox]

The whole problem is that, while a fourth level wizard must rest frequently, this psion does not.
How do you figure? If he's using his full power on each shot, then those power points are going to evaporate fast. As Noneoyabizzness noted, he'd get 7 total shots of something like Energy Ray or Energy Missile at full power over the course of the entire day, with 2 power points left over. A Wizard of equal level and intelligence would get 7 spells per day if he hadn't specialized, 9 if he had (not counting cantrips). A Sorcerer of equal level and charisma in place of intelligence would have 11 spells per day not counting cantrips. If the Psion isn't going full power on each shot, he's also not doing as much damage as he could, or as much as an equal-level Wizard or Sorcerer would do with his spells.

Doesn't seem to me as if the Psion is in a better position than the Wizard or Sorcerer there.

Zevox

[Yora]

Your 4th level Psion, with 20 INT and a free feat for extra PP, can deal 30d6 damage in a day with Energy Ray.
I assume you mean with 7 manifestations of Energy Ray?

[FMArthur]

So he can go a long time if he hoards his Power Points. So what? A Warlock can blast all day long, and it turns out, to the Warlock's frustration, that longevity actually contributes very little to a class's power.

If he wants to piss away his longevity, your Psion friend can choose to deal 4d6 damage in a round, apparently after taking an action to grant himself flight. Any melee brute with a +2 Strength race can swing a Greatsword to deal 2d6 + 7 every round, which averages the same as the Psion and can do it all day. A Barbarian can take Power Attack and Skill Focus (temper tantrum) for the rest of his feats and remain a credible threat to creatures that want to mix it up in melee until high levels. Access to Rage, iterative attacks and a truly ridiculous number of feats that improve his ability to stab people in the face can mean that he will never be outdamaged by a Psion not going into action economy abuse.

Lots of dice make attacks look meaningful, but d6s each add disappointingly little amounts, averaging 3.5 for every roll. A d6 per level is not actually much.

[lightningcat]

If he is only going up the 20' in the air then even a dire bear does have an ability to get to him. Jumping. This plan would work best if it is only him against the bear, but still.

The bear has a vertical reach of 16' and a Str mod of +10, the Run feat, and a speed of 40'. This means for him to jump high enough to catch the levitating psion he needs to roll a -2 or higher on d20 with a running high jump. And if he rolls higher then a 3 he lands on his feet. As the running high jump is a move action, he can attack with his claw, grapple as a free action, and the psion is in trouble. Best of all, this idea does not require the animal to have a high Int.

I can just imagine the look on his face as you discribe how the bear takes a few steps back and then makes a running jump, reaches out and graps his character.

By the way, the barbaian might be able to do the same thing. Although the bow is a better idea.

[tyckspoon]

If he is only going up the 20' in the air then even a dire bear does have an ability to get to him. Jumping. This plan would work best if it is only him against the bear, but still.

The bear has a vertical reach of 16' and a Str mod of +10, the Run feat, and a speed of 40'. This means for him to jump high enough to catch the levitating psion he needs to roll a -2 or higher on d20 with a running high jump. And if he rolls higher then a 3 he lands on his feet. As the running high jump is a move action, he can attack with his claw, grapple as a free action, and the psion is in trouble. Best of all, this idea does not require the animal to have a high Int.


Two major problems with this idea: vertical reach from the jumping chart is not the same thing as attackable reach (if you want to play that it is, not only does the bear gain ridiculous reach for its size, it doesn't even need to jump- it can just reach up and swat the psion's square from the ground), and unless your bear has Spring Attack it has no means of actually attacking at the same time as making its jump unless it is making a Charge. Which it can't do, because it would have to stop in the square it is making the attack from, which a jump move doesn't allow.

[FMArthur]

Any player who tells me that things can't jump up and snag something just out of their reach because they lack the feats for it is a player who goes home with hard-to-explain book-shaped bruises on his head.

[Worira]

Clearly, there is only one way to counter this player.


Dire bears on stilts.

[Knaight]

Your 4th level Psion, with 20 INT and a free feat for extra PP, can deal 30d6 damage in a day with Energy Ray.


The best part is, this takes eight rounds. That means that, over eight rounds the Psion can manage a whole 105 damage on average. A strength 20 Fighter with Weapon Specialization and a Great Sword (In short a really low end Fighter) can deal 2d6+9 per round. Over eight rounds that is 16d6+72, which averages 128 damage. Sure, the fighter has to be in melee, and it might be harder for the fighter to hit AC than for monsters to fail reflex saves, but said fighter can have more than eight rounds of attacks.

Even if every single one of the Psion's attacks gets a vulnerability bonus, said Psion still only does 157.5 damage. That isn't very impressive, but is still useful, leading to the blaster psion being useful. If flight is causing issues, odds are most monsters have some way to lift rocks or chunks of ice and throw them, which means they outrange such a low level Psion.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A Psion 4 gets 17 pp base, Int 18 at 4th level gives 8 more, with 3 for race he should have 28 pp, not 30. If he had Int 20 he would have 30 pp at 4th level. Also note that he has to spend extra points to get more dice of damage on his powers. Energy Ray may cost only 1 pp but it deals only 1d6+1 damage regardless of his manifester level. He has to spend an extra powerpoint per extra die of damage for it to do more.

The Barbarian should have a few javelins with him. Move-action to draw one, standard action to throw it, he should easily be able to take the Psion out in just a few hits. It would be hilarious if he got knocked into negative HP and was unconscious levitating 20 ft. off the ground, and he died because nobody could reach him to stabilize him.

There are plenty of low-CR flying monsters and creatures with built-in ranged attacks in core. Air elementals, mephits, shadows, manticore, imp, quasit, medium animated object (rug), giant wasp, monstrous spider (potentially hilarious), etc. Also keep in mind that he can only control his vertical movements, not horizontal. A strong wind could blow him out over a cliff. An opponent could net him and drag him to higher ground where he can be reached. There are plenty of solutions to levitating characters, you just have to throw some variety in there.

[sonofzeal]

Wizard 4
Transmutation Specialist
20 Int
6 1st lvl spells
4 2nd lvl spells
Levitate (2nd lvl spell), Fire Bolt (1st lvl spell)

The Wizard can cast Levitate in four encounters, and still hit six enemies for 4d6 blasts, and still have a variety of lvl 0 spells left over.


Psion 4
Kineticist
20 Int
27 pp
Psionic Levitate (3pp), Crystal Shards (4pp fully augmented)

The Psion can manifest Levitate in four encounters, and still hit three enemies for 4d6 blasts, with a few pp left over.



Nope, Wizard clearly wins. Same exact tactic, but more endurance. Psion gets points on flexibility, if it's only one big fight he can save some pp and get a few more blasts in. But even then, he only ever matches the six blasts of the Wizard. He never pulls ahead.

Your problem is with Levitation, and not adapting to it. Psionics has absolutely nothing to do with it, and the same idea would be even more dangerous coming from a Wizard.

[tyckspoon]

[
Psion 4
Kineticist
20 Int
27 pp
Psionic Levitate (3pp), Crystal Shards (4pp fully augmented)

The Psion can manifest Levitate in four encounters, and still hit three enemies for 4d6 blasts, with a few pp left over.


Mind, Psi. Levitate is 10 min/level duration compared to the spell's 1 min/level, so depending on how quickly the party moves he may only have to manifest it once or twice to cover the entire sequence of encounters. The Wizard is much more likely to need all those slots and associated actions used to be able to do the trick.

[sonofzeal]

Mind, Psi. Levitate is 10 min/level duration compared to the spell's 1 min/level, so depending on how quickly the party moves he may only have to manifest it once or twice to cover the entire sequence of encounters. The Wizard is much more likely to need all those slots and associated actions used to be able to do the trick.
Given the relative difficulty of horizontal movement under Levitate, I don't consider this a major issue. As much as he can be floating for 40 mintues, that won't be a productive use of his time.

And again, even if the Psion only needs to cast one Levitate to the Wizard's four, he still only ever matches the same firepower. Under no circumstances here does the Psion take the lead.

[Zonugal]

And again, even if the Psion only needs to cast one Levitate to the Wizard's four, he still only ever matches the same firepower. Under no circumstances here does the Psion take the lead.

If he is using Energy Missile then there is a chance of greater returns as a result of the power allowing for multiple targeting with each manifestation. But this is dependent on there being multiple foes as opposed to one large one.

[sonofzeal]

If he is using Energy Missile then there is a chance of greater returns as a result of the power allowing for multiple targeting with each manifestation. But this is dependent on there being multiple foes as opposed to one large one.
Agreed, but the analogy starts breaking down then, since the Psion's using a 2nd lvl power for blasting but the Wizard is only using a 1st lvl spell. Also, the Psion is getting touch attacks for Slashing damage while the Wizard is getting Ref Half for Fire damage. Also, the Wizard has cantrips and many more 1st lvl spells known. Etc etc etc.

In any case, point was that the fundamental issue here is just with Levitate, Psi or otherwise. The DM seems caught off-guard about it, and so he's blaming it on the Psion class, when really it's just a standard tactic in those levels for mage-types.

[Sacrieur]

Barbarians do have ranged weapons: throw the rogue!

If it is really that much of an issue, these other guys are right, he's actually a tad weak for a spellcaster. On these forums we do have quite the standard for a decent build, but I think it is just that your other players are playing a tier 5 while he's playing a tier 2. Of course he's going to outshine everyone.

[Warlawk]

Clearly, there is only one way to counter this player.


Dire bears on stilts.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s212/Warlawk/lion.jpg

Seriously though, people have already put forth some solutions. More mooks, a few flying or range capable enemies, and the fact that it really isn't an issue in the first place. Heck, a level 4 rogue two weapon fighter even using meager shortswords will be dealing 3d6+X damage with each attack and should be able to reliably flank or surprise.

Within a couple more levels it will be a complete non-issue anyways as more monsters open up through the increasing increasing CRs the party can handle.

The long and short... if your psion is busy blasting instead of breaking the game, it's probably not an issue.

[faceroll]

The problem isn't the power of his manifestions...it's the quantity. He's able to pretty much levitate and blast every encounter, and I can see that becoming a problem. He hates the barbarian, and if push comes to shove, the psion will surely win, likely laying waste to the party. The whole problem is that, while a fourth level wizard must rest frequently, this psion does not. I mean, a troll, ettin, hydra, even a dire demon bear has no response to flight. I just can see this becoming a huge problem, and would like to stop it before something terrible happens.

A troll and ettin can both huck something like a javelin or two at the psion and easily end him. Trolls have great strength and above average dex. They could easily kite the party while using a composite longbow to turn the floating psion into a pincushion. Don't forget, levitate gives the psion cumulative penalties to his attack rolls.

They also have a lot of hp. The psion is doing what, average 3.5 damage per level? A troll or ettin will last a long time taking that sort of damage.


So he can go a long time if he hoards his Power Points. So what? A Warlock can blast all day long, and it turns out, to the Warlock's frustration, that longevity actually contributes very little to a class's power.

A warlock does 1.75 damage/level, a psion does 3.5 damage per level, and against monsters with energy subtypes, 5.25 damage per level.

[sonofzeal]

A warlock does 1.75 damage/level, a psion does 3.5 damage per level, and against monsters with energy subtypes, 5.25 damage per level.
Yes, but that's deceptive. I could counter that the Psion's daily output is 94.5, whereas the Warlock's is 100,800. That would also be deceptive though.

Let's put it this way. In the entire day, a Psion is likely to face a lot more than six combat rounds. Sixteen is probably a more reasonable number. If he tosses a fully-augmented power out in each round, he's going to run out fast.

Assuming three fights that last four rounds average, and a Levitate in each one, the Psion outputs 18d6 damage and the rest is wasted rounds. Under the same assumptions, the Warlock outputs 24d6. And that's a short day; if there are two extra fights the Psion's still got the same output but the Warlock jumps to 30d6.

The Psion does catch up eventually, but only at higher level.

[Aquillion]

Amridell, you'd need to give us more information on the rest of the group. A psion blaster is a decent enough character, but they're not particularly optimized -- psions are generally a bit weaker than wizards by virtue of having a more limited list of options overall (on par with a Sorcerer), but of course being weaker than a wizard isn't saying much. Blasting is a bit better of an option for a psion than it is for a wizard because they get some flexibility innately and have generally better blasty-powers, even without the automatic scaling, but it's still not the optimal choice. If he's overshadowing the rest of the party like that, they're probably things like sword-and-board fighters.

But anyway, you basically have three options, in broad strokes:

1. Get him to tone it down, in one way or another. Simply talking to him and asking him not to overshadow the party is often the simplest solution!

2. Buff the people who feel overshadowed, by making high-powered loot specific to their characters available, or giving them advice on their builds if they're up for it and willing to retrain. This can work, but it can also cause even more disruption at the table, and not everyone will appreciate the 'help' of either sort.

3. Make sure it's really a problem! Are you certain your players really feel overshadowed? Talk to them individually; if your players are having fun (and you're having fun!), nothing else really matters.

Actually, there are other considerations. If you feel the psion is knocking over your encounters too easily, you can always send out tougher encounters, but that carries a lot of risks, and you should make sure your players actually want it first. It's easy for a DM to feel that they're not challenging the party even when the party feels everything is going fine -- don't fall into this trap!

On the other hand, if everyone but the psion in your group seems disengaged during fights and just generally not as interested as they should be, it might be a sign that they're feeling overshadowed and unnecessary, but it might also be a sign of something else. Make sure they're all happy with their characters and interested in the direction the game is going. Try to customize encounters to give them something to do -- the psion has limited power points (30 doesn't go as far as you think) and won't be able to solve every single issue. In fact, the psion should usually be eager to see other people solve a problem to conserve PP. And even when they're not -- they only have so many powers, and you know what those powers are, so you can create challenges aimed at the holes to give other people stuff to do.

[Noneoyabizzness]

Yes, but that's deceptive. I could counter that the Psion's daily output is 94.5, whereas the Warlock's is 100,800. That would also be deceptive though.

Let's put it this way. In the entire day, a Psion is likely to face a lot more than six combat rounds. Sixteen is probably a more reasonable number. If he tosses a fully-augmented power out in each round, he's going to run out fast.

Assuming three fights that last four rounds average, and a Levitate in each one, the Psion outputs 18d6 damage and the rest is wasted rounds. Under the same assumptions, the Warlock outputs 24d6. And that's a short day; if there are two extra fights the Psion's still got the same output but the Warlock jumps to 30d6.

The Psion does catch up eventually, but only at higher level.

Of course the dfa can outdo that if each use hits multiple people.

But nonetheless. Psions aren't out of control.

[Malevolence]

So he can manifest 7.5 powers before running out. That's... not a big deal.

[Darth Stabber]

People always think psions are such a huge problem. The people that say that don't know what wizard is capable of. A poorly optimized psion (ie blasto focused)might be slightly better than a poorly optimized wizard(ie blasto focused), but as rules knowledge increases, wizard pulls ahead fast. Heck at low opti, sorcerers and wilders out do the psions and wizards (Since blastomancy is a more reasonable focus for those classes).

It seems like you party is not good at tactics, or working together. And if the psion is using levitate every fight and you aren't taking advantage, you need to go back to GM school. A simple gust of wind spell from an enemy caster will wreck his day so hard he won't know which way is up. And since you are using frostburn, see how well his tactic works in a blizzard. A couple of Stirges could really ruin his day as well (heh heh, con damage). The bottom line is, as GM you should be able to ruin any one player's day and make it look fair.

[faceroll]

Yes, but that's deceptive. I could counter that the Psion's daily output is 94.5, whereas the Warlock's is 100,800. That would also be deceptive though.

Let's put it this way. In the entire day, a Psion is likely to face a lot more than six combat rounds. Sixteen is probably a more reasonable number. If he tosses a fully-augmented power out in each round, he's going to run out fast.

Assuming three fights that last four rounds average, and a Levitate in each one, the Psion outputs 18d6 damage and the rest is wasted rounds. Under the same assumptions, the Warlock outputs 24d6. And that's a short day; if there are two extra fights the Psion's still got the same output but the Warlock jumps to 30d6.

The Psion does catch up eventually, but only at higher level.

DPS is a far more important metric than total damage, especially in a game with highly discrete turns like D&D.


People always think psions are such a huge problem. The people that say that don't know what wizard is capable of..

Atrocious logic.
A is B
C is B
.:A is not B

[Sacrieur]

Atrocious logic.
A is B
C is B
.:A is not B

It's not deductive logic, it's inductive. It relies on the "overlooking the elephant in the room" problem. As it turns out, most people who complain about how terrible psions are really don't pay any merit to how strong the wizard is (who is stronger than a psion). A psion isn't even tier 1, it's tier 2. Claiming that the psion is a huge problem is overlooking not only all of the tier 1 classes that are better, but all of the tier 2 classes that are on par.

Ergo, people who complain about psions don't know how strong the wizard is.

[faceroll]

It's not deductive logic, it's inductive. It relies on the "overlooking the elephant in the room" problem. As it turns out, most people who complain about how terrible psions are really don't pay any merit to how strong the wizard is (who is stronger than a psion). A psion isn't even tier 1, it's tier 2. Claiming that the psion is a huge problem is overlooking not only all of the tier 1 classes that are better, but all of the tier 2 classes that are on par.

Ergo, people who complain about psions don't know how strong the wizard is.

{Scrubbed}
Thanks for inductively constructing a conclusion that is irrelevant, I guess?

[sonofzeal]

DPS is a far more important metric than total damage, especially in a game with highly discrete turns like D&D.
Yes, but endurance is also a factor. A Psion can't actually get that much damage out. Their DPS is higher, yes, but not nearly high enough to justify it. The example I chose was actually tilted to favour the Psion; if you have longer combats, or more of them, it just gets worse and worse.

DPS matters when you can end fights instantly. But 4d6 at lvl 4 is unlikely to do that. A lvl 1 Barbarian can hope to do the same on an average swing. A Polar Bear is a CR 4 monster, and has 68 hp; the Psion is doing 14. Nothing to write home about.

And the Wizard comparison I ran had exactly the same DPS and still had more endurance.

[Darth Stabber]

Atrocious logic.
A is B
C is B
.:A is not B

People who complain about psions do not realize that 4 classes in th phb will out perform it everyday of the week. Wizard, Druid, Cleric, and Sorcerer are all much more breakable than the humble psion. Yes he gets some interesting tricks that vancian and semi vancian casters wish they could get ahold of, but ultimately Vance's accolytes have the upperhand. The people who complain about psion are likely in groups where the psion's simplicity of operation makes the process of optimization enough easier that unskilled players can get better results than they can with a wizard. There is that reasonable enough logic for you.

That being said, since my normal groups are not hot beads of opti-fu, I will happily play a psion for said ease of use, and removal of temptation to go all batman on them. They are a fun class, with amusing mechanics, and for me that's a lot.

[Knaight]

{Scrubbed}

Lets try something along these lines.
"Excuse me, waiter, there appears to be a hair in my salad."
"You point this out and not the fact that the bowl is lined with human mucus?"
"Eh, I'm used to that. The cat hair is simply unacceptable."

[Aquillion]

Atrocious logic.
A is B
C is B
.:A is not BBut these variables aren't independent. 'Overpowered' implicitly means 'too powerful compared to other classes'. Pointing out that nearly half the core classes are more powerful than the Psion is a valid way to dispute the argument that it's overpowered at what it does, especially since those classes really define what it does -- the Psion is, at heart, a reflavored version of the Wizard / Sorcerer, and generally weaker than both overall.

(Actually, I'm not sure exactly how it stacks up to the Sorcerer -- my gut feeling is that the Sorcerer wins by having the option to take more overpowered spells simply by having a bigger range of spells to choose from in sourcebooks, but that if you forced them to only use spells with Psionic equivalents -- fair, since the imbalance there isn't really supposed to be a 'feature' of arcane magic, just an advantage it gets from being in the original core -- the Psion would be a bit better on account of its versatility.)

[Noneoyabizzness]

ok ignoring the comparing to other caster issue...

it is still 7-8 shots a day. less if he is levitating. at this point that barbarian should be outlasting and shining the the battle field. a 2h build barb should be able to power attack into the enemies in rage and hit fairly hard at this point.

now granted the barb issue might be if he would survive vs the psion, but depends on the time of day.consider inertial armor, 1 pp +4 armor, in two encounters it will take it two 28 even which then leave you with 7 maxed powers. assuming 18 dex for ray shots init and armor (am a worse case scenario kinda person)a barbarian with 14 str (not likely) and not power attacking should be able to hit 50 percent of the time and do with a masterwork greatsword and do minimum 5hp per hit.

since we already assumed 20 in and 18 dex lets be really imbalancing assume the psion is joey 18 and has an 18con. with a bar only rolling 1s for damage, not raging and not using power att we give the barb 14 in dex and con jsut to again keep consistant in stats and be sadistic the psion trying to get to touch ac 70%of the time
now first round psion would go first likely (we gave it a higher dex) and armors itself, the barb either hits and does one 8th of its life minimum or misses.
second round the psions attempts to levitate concentration check likely makes and levitates as it attempt to move out of the threatened squre it gets and attack of opprtunity and then either loses another 8th of its life min more misses. the barb spends his action getting his bow.

the psion is down 25% + and now it becomes a battle of the remaining 6 4d6 blasts that still may only hit 70 % of the time against a barbarian that has potentially double the hit points in spite of low con,

now assuming an average of 2points per d6 for the barb and the psion this match would have instead been nearly over, let alone assuming a barb would have either improved init or weapon focus, (first would would have been rage+power attack for 4 doing min 12 points of damage , in concentrtate check work no aoa. 2nd rnd if he was planning to levitate no powerattack min 8dmg leaving him 2 in the hole. levitate goes off aoa for leaving threatened squre another 8.

28 damage minimum in two rounds to a character who in a perfect world has has 36 hit points.

the barb should not feel underclassed to the psion at this level. unless he is waiting unthe the armor is up already he could get advantage quick

[Sacrieur]

But these variables aren't independent. 'Overpowered' implicitly means 'too powerful compared to other classes'. Pointing out that nearly half the core classes are more powerful than the Psion is a valid way to dispute the argument that it's overpowered at what it does, especially since those classes really define what it does -- the Psion is, at heart, a reflavored version of the Wizard / Sorcerer, and generally weaker than both overall.

(Actually, I'm not sure exactly how it stacks up to the Sorcerer -- my gut feeling is that the Sorcerer wins by having the option to take more overpowered spells simply by having a bigger range of spells to choose from in sourcebooks, but that if you forced them to only use spells with Psionic equivalents -- fair, since the imbalance there isn't really supposed to be a 'feature' of arcane magic, just an advantage it gets from being in the original core -- the Psion would be a bit better on account of its versatility.)

Technically, tier 1 and tier 2 classes are equal in raw power, it is just that tier 1 classes are more versatile.

[faceroll]

But these variables aren't independent. 'Overpowered' implicitly means 'too powerful compared to other classes'. Pointing out that nearly half the core classes are more powerful than the Psion is a valid way to dispute the argument that it's overpowered at what it does, especially since those classes really define what it does -- the Psion is, at heart, a reflavored version of the Wizard / Sorcerer, and generally weaker than both overall.

(Actually, I'm not sure exactly how it stacks up to the Sorcerer -- my gut feeling is that the Sorcerer wins by having the option to take more overpowered spells simply by having a bigger range of spells to choose from in sourcebooks, but that if you forced them to only use spells with Psionic equivalents -- fair, since the imbalance there isn't really supposed to be a 'feature' of arcane magic, just an advantage it gets from being in the original core -- the Psion would be a bit better on account of its versatility.)

Someone telling you they have a problem, and you replying that the problem could be a lot bigger, and then concluding therefore they don't have a problem, is a form of denying the antecedent.

It's identical to you telling me the monk is broken, and me saying, no, it's not broken if you change the rules. I can't remember what you guys call that fallacy. Ogalaf or something?

[The Glyphstone]

I think you're referencing the Oberoni Fallacy there, which is in itself a D&D-specific variant of the Appeal To Authority fallacy (I think).

[faceroll]

I think you're referencing the Oberoni Fallacy there, which is in itself a D&D-specific variant of the Appeal To Authority fallacy (I think).

Appeal to Authority fallacy would be "Doc_Roc says this class is broken; therefore it's broken." Appeal to false authority would be "Britney Spears says this class is broken." An ad baculum fallacy would be "this class is broken or the Glyphstone will ban you."

[Psyren]

(Actually, I'm not sure exactly how it stacks up to the Sorcerer -- my gut feeling is that the Sorcerer wins by having the option to take more overpowered spells simply by having a bigger range of spells to choose from in sourcebooks, but that if you forced them to only use spells with Psionic equivalents -- fair, since the imbalance there isn't really supposed to be a 'feature' of arcane magic, just an advantage it gets from being in the original core -- the Psion would be a bit better on account of its versatility.)

Sorcerer has the edge for two reasons:

- Better splat support (more spells, more ACFs, more PrCs etc.);
- Stackable metamagic

The Psion has several advantages (resource granularity, better casting stat, wizard spell progression) but they are not strong enough to overcome the above at mid-high levels. Converting Sorcerers to spell points only exacerbates the gap.

[faceroll]

Sorcerer has the edge for two reasons:

- Better splat support (more spells, more ACFs, more PrCs etc.);
- Stackable metamagic

The Psion has several advantages (resource granularity, better casting stat, wizard spell progression) but they are not strong enough to overcome the above at mid-high levels. Converting Sorcerers to spell points only exacerbates the gap.

What about stuff like Synchronicity and Schism? Or do Sorcerers bridge that gap with Arcane Fusion?

[erikun]

Someone telling you they have a problem, and you replying that the problem could be a lot bigger, and then concluding therefore they don't have a problem, is a form of denying the antecedent.

It's identical to you telling me the monk is broken, and me saying, no, it's not broken if you change the rules. I can't remember what you guys call that fallacy. Ogalaf or something?
That doesn't really compare, on either level. Nobody is recommending for Amridell to change the rules to accommodate the Psion. Nobody is saying that, because the Wizard has potential to out-optimize the whole party, that optimizing the Psion is perfectly fine, either.

Rather, I'm taking Amridell's question to be: "My party Psion can deal 30d6 damage, is this overpowered?" The common response has been: "No, because a Wizard, Sorcerer, or even Barbarian can achieve that will minimal optimization." It isn't a fallacy to point out what the Psion can accomplish compared to other classes available to the party, especially when the question was about how the Psion compares to the party!

[Darth Stabber]

My assumtions and logic

1)Broken is a function of class role comparison.
2)Each class has a role in a party.
3)Phb classes should be considered the baseline of comparison for each role, since all other classes are part of add ons, and are therefore not suitable as a default.
4)wizard's primary role is controller/damage dealer.
5)psion has the same role as wizard.
6)for psion to be broken it must do what the wizard does better than wizard
7)psion falls short of this goal.
8)psion is not broken.

[Psyren]

What about stuff like Synchronicity and Schism? Or do Sorcerers bridge that gap with Arcane Fusion?

The funny thing is, action economy takes multiple forms. A Psion can somewhat more easily get extra actions than a sorc can - but spells are powerful enough that this advantage is not clear-cut.

For instance, consider that with Schism a Psion can use a standard action to effectively create a second psion with a reduced manifester level, that itself can only take standard actions. It also uses your PP. Meanwhile, a sorcerer can spend a full-round action (less with certain spells) to summon one or even multiple creatures - each of whom gets their own sets of actions, and none of which use his spell slots.

When metamagic enters the equation it gets worse - because unlike metapsionics, metamagic does not need to be fueled by move or (god forbid) full-round actions.

Adding Quicken to the same scenario above - now the Psion and Sorcerer have the exact same investment (a swift action) - but the Sorcerer gets far more out of his investment than the Psion does even if he only summons one creature. If he summons more than that, he widens the gap fast.

Note also that I didn't include Arcane Fusion anywhere in that example, and already sorcerers are ahead.

[Lateral]

My assumtions and logic

1)Broken is a function of class role comparison.
2)Each class has a role in a party.
3)Phb classes should be considered the baseline of comparison for each role, since all other classes are part of add ons, and are therefore not suitable as a default.
4)wizard's primary role is controller/damage dealer.
5)psion has the same role as wizard.
6)for psion to be broken it must do what the wizard does better than wizard
7)psion falls short of this goal.
8)psion is not broken.
Not really, since Wizard is already broken since it does everyone else's job better. That yardstick isn't really accurate.

Also, Sorcerers can't quicken.

[Shyftir]

Sorcs can Quicken they just have to have the right feat combo...

[Tvtyrant]

I think you're referencing the Oberoni Fallacy there, which is in itself a D&D-specific variant of the Appeal To Authority fallacy (I think).

Its the rule 0 fallacy: The system works because anything wrong with it can be fixed with rule 0, thus rendering all imbalances equal.

[Sacrieur]

Not really, since Wizard is already broken since it does everyone else's job better. That yardstick isn't really accurate.

Also, Sorcerers can't quicken.

Metamagic Specialist from the PHII allows you to cast metamagic feats without the extended casting time. This explicitly includes quicken. You lose your familiar, but many do view a familiar as more of a burden than anything.

[Lateral]

I know, but in the above scenario there was no Metamagic Specialist.

It wasn't major, I was just pointing that out. Sheesh.

[The Glyphstone]

Its the rule 0 fallacy: The system works because anything wrong with it can be fixed with rule 0, thus rendering all imbalances equal.

Yeah, that's called the Oberoni Fallacy - it's not broken because the DM can houserule otherwise. Named after Oberoni, the poster who first coined the phrase, the same way the Stormwind Fallacy (D&D-specific version of the False Dichotomy fallacy) is named after Tempest_Stormwind.

[Tvtyrant]

Yeah, that's called the Oberoni Fallacy - it's not broken because the DM can houserule otherwise. Named after Oberoni, the poster who first coined the phrase, the same way the Stormwind Fallacy (D&D-specific version of the False Dichotomy fallacy) is named after Tempest_Stormwind.

You seemed unsure, so I was helping :P Man, I remember the first time I got that one smacked in my face on this board. How naive I was!

[Coidzor]

P.S: He's not one to try to outshine them, but the rest will pressure him eventually, or he'll kill the party barbarian.

You might wanna alter your rules for rolling for HP if an entire party of 4th level characters doesn't even have 30 HP. :smalleek:

Why, exactly, will he kill the party barbarian? Are the players feuding? Did they come with some kind of expectation of PvP when you're not running that kind of game?


He hates the barbarian, and if push comes to shove, the psion will surely win, likely laying waste to the party

Ah, well, that sounds like an issue between you and the two players about why they wanna derail the campaign with pointless bloodshed that the DM doesn't want to have to deal with. Entirely separate from the issue of the power of the psion relative to the rest of the party.

[Gorilla2038]

Folks? On topic? The OP was having problems, not claiming CW samurai was the most awesome class.

For help:

Harpoons. Rope to pull a character in, massive damage in a large creatures hands, and nifty de buffs.

Tactics-after all, in a ravine, being 20 feet up and level with the enemy is a bad idea.

In practice and in most situations, i find flight to be stupid-your the largest target, easy to kill, and all alone when the baddies come a calling. Without wind wall, 3 human fighters with repeating heavy crossbows are going to do 15.5 damage a round(assuming hit), which means your psion will be at half health in round 1.

[Forbiddenwar]

What good is flight in a dungeon where the ceilings are 10 feet off the floor?

[Knaight]

What good is flight in a dungeon where the ceilings are 10 feet off the floor?

Very little. However one expects the occasional courtyard, high ceiling hall, and of course this mysterious area known as outside.

[ericgrau]

At level 4 he does 4d6+4 damage to up to 5 targets, which averages to 18 with both energy and save type switchable and never hit allies. All that is way better than a fireball from a level 5 caster. Except it's a psion so his casting can't be disrupted. He can do it 5-6 times per day (7 times with the OP's rules) unlike the level 5 wizard who can chuck up to 3 level 3 spells. In an EL 6 (difficult) encounter his fair share is a CR 2 foe (4 CR 2 = EL 6) who has an average of 20 HP, except oops he can hit all of his allies' foes while he's at it too, in just 1 round. So even if all 4 save that's 36 damage total. Ya I dunno what the maker of that power was smoking. I know people in these forums say "it's only damage it doesn't matter" but these are low levels and that's ridiculous. I, wow, I mean I thought psions had a little power creep but I never thought they were actually broken until now. Am I missing something or is energy missile really this bad?

Levitate is a fairly weak power and at level 4 you really need more humanoid monsters. All of which should have ranged weapons even if they focus on melee. Thrown weapons are good at these early levels. That combined with the standard action he's taking to defend himself when every turn is precious in D&D means the power isn't actually that good. Heck apparently this guy can do twice his fair share of the entire fight in 1 round.

[The Glyphstone]

Energy missile is broken. It was nerfed (very justifiably) in CPsionic, one of maybe 3 good things that came out of that book.

If you take it out or use the nerfed version, the psion drops back to where it should be, roughly neck-and-neck with the Sorcerer.

[mangosta71]

Except it's a psion so his casting can't be disrupted.
:smallconfused: A psion's manifestation can be interrupted just like an arcane caster's. Manifesting a power is a standard action (unless otherwise specified) which provokes AoOs and the character has to make a concentration check if he takes any damage. A psion can manifest defensively to avoid the AoOs just like a wizard or sorcerer can cast defensively but he's not automatically immune to them, which is what you seem to be implying here.

[Yora]

Energy missile is broken. It was nerfed (very justifiably) in CPsionic, one of maybe 3 good things that came out of that book.
Took me quite some time what's supposed to be broken about it. I think that +1 to DC for every additional PP falls more into the category of "typos" than a badly written power. It's always +1 to DC for 2 PP, so I doubt it was intentional.
Though I do wonder why they changed that in CPsi instead of an errata.

[DeltaEmil]

They probably needed filler material to justify the page count for Complete Psionics. So they reprint older stuff with a few errata...

[Malevolence]

At level 4 he does 4d6+4 damage to up to 5 targets, which averages to 18 with both energy and save type switchable and never hit allies. All that is way better than a fireball from a level 5 caster. Except it's a psion so his casting can't be disrupted. He can do it 5-6 times per day (7 times with the OP's rules) unlike the level 5 wizard who can chuck up to 3 level 3 spells. In an EL 6 (difficult) encounter his fair share is a CR 2 foe (4 CR 2 = EL 6) who has an average of 20 HP, except oops he can hit all of his allies' foes while he's at it too, in just 1 round. So even if all 4 save that's 36 damage total. Ya I dunno what the maker of that power was smoking. I know people in these forums say "it's only damage it doesn't matter" but these are low levels and that's ridiculous. I, wow, I mean I thought psions had a little power creep but I never thought they were actually broken until now. Am I missing something or is energy missile really this bad?

You are a few hours too early.

[Amridell]

Like I said earlier, not the quality, the quantity.

The rest of the party (all ECL4):
A catfolk archer cleric3
A half -orc barbarian4
And a xeph soulknife4

And in response to:
"how is flight useful in a dungeon?"

Talons of the Horned King is mostly outside, until they get to the later portion. The barbarian and he are at odds, and this psion is much more optimized than the half-orc. Outside, the elf will have him dead in rounds ( or animate a table and have it sit on him, and leave him for the flies)!

[gomipile]

If the real question is "Is a psion supposed to be more powerful than a barbarian?" then the answer is yes. A psion slapped together quickly, picking mostly powers that look neat, should be able to beat even a well optimised barbarian.

[Noneoyabizzness]

At level 4 even the soulknife should be on par.

Especially with meditation regaining focus quickly

[Noneoyabizzness]

If the real question is "Is a psion supposed to be more powerful than a barbarian?" then the answer is yes. A psion slapped together quickly, picking mostly powers that look neat, should be able to beat even a well optimised barbarian.

Id agree in mid to late levels sure.

Before level 5, most classes are fairly close powerwise. 3rd level spells/powers are when that gap starts spreading.

[ericgrau]

:smallconfused: A psion's manifestation can be interrupted just like an arcane caster's. Manifesting a power is a standard action (unless otherwise specified) which provokes AoOs and the character has to make a concentration check if he takes any damage. A psion can manifest defensively to avoid the AoOs just like a wizard or sorcerer can cast defensively but he's not automatically immune to them, which is what you seem to be implying here.

That's easy enough to avoid for both classes. No, I mean readying an action to disrupt a power when psions can hide their manifestations, silence (no verbal components), grappling (no somatic components), and 30 other mundane and magical methods, most of which don't work on psions. In exchange powers are supposed to be a little weaker than spells, not give the psion the ability to solo encounters at level 4. But I assume only energy missile causes problems there.


If the real question is "Is a psion supposed to be more powerful than a barbarian?" then the answer is yes. A psion slapped together quickly, picking mostly powers that look neat, should be able to beat even a well optimised barbarian.
A level 4 barbarian can curbstomp most level 4 psions and wizards. Maybe there are exceptions with good optimization, but 95% of the time this is so with something "slapped together".

[tyckspoon]

That's easy enough to avoid for both classes. No, I mean readying an action to disrupt a power when psions can hide their manifestations, silence (no verbal components), grappling (no somatic components), and 30 other mundane and magical methods, most of which don't work on psions. In exchange powers are supposed to be a little weaker than spells, not give the psion the ability to solo encounters at level 4. But I assume only energy missile causes problems there.


You can still ready an action to smack him, regardless of whether or not the display goes off (heck, if you're trying to interrupt a power, it's already too late by the time you experience the display- that means he's already manifested successfully) and psions are still inconvenienced by grapples; manifesting out of one requires a Concentration check. Which, admittedly, should not be a particularly big problem, but it's there.

[cfalcon]

Is there a worry where the Psion will attempt to kill the barbarian?

If so, wouldn't the rest of the party step in? Are you concerned that the Psion will solo the entire rest of the party?

Basically, I'm wondering if this is a pvp concern.