Hardest Monster you've ever faced? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Surrealistik

2011-03-28, 12:16 AM

Beating the level 30 solo Tarrasque with a single level 5 Wizard: Arcane Whirlwind (L1 Daily) + Web (L5 Daily) + Insert Magic Missile or other source of adequate autohit damage here.

Step 1: Cast Web on Tarrasque from beyond range of his attacks.

Step 2: Use Action Point.

Step 3: Arcane Whirlwind Tarrasque. Use Effect to slide Tarrasque into a square within Web. He is now auto-immobilized (save ends).

Step 4: Let Tarrasque do nothing meaningful on his turn because he's immobilized and you're beyond range of his attacks. Maybe taunt as a Free Action.

Step 5: If Tarrasque saved, use Arcane Whirlwind Sustain Minor to slide Tarrasque and immobilize it again (save ends) as above.

Step 6: Use Magic Missile to autodamage Tarrasque with a +4 or better implement (or be a level 9 Wizard and use Stinking Cloud/Firewall/other source of 11+ autodamage). Rinse and repeat until dead.

Step 7: Have Kayne West let it finish and tell you that you're the greatest wizard of all time. Of all time!

Congrats, you just soloed the Tarrasque in Heroic.

For those concerned about winning Initiative, use the level 2 skill power Strategist's Epiphany and max out your History skill.

Goonthegoof

2011-03-28, 01:07 AM

2 Young RDs for a level 6 party? Doesn't sound too bad if there's no environmental factors hindering you, you've got a good controller (and leader), and you're starting this battle at full force. If you've got someone who can also hand out fire resistance, it's very doable (though it will be a long, boring, arduous fight).

Wouldn't the dragons just fly away eventually?

Surrealistik

2011-03-28, 01:14 AM

Web; it's not just for owning Tarrasques.

Crossfiyah

2011-03-28, 02:00 AM

{Scrubbed}

Surrealistik

2011-03-28, 09:09 AM

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Incorrect: 'ends its move in the web' means if it ends any movement in the zone, including forced movement; movement is the act of leaving one square and entering another. If the wording was 'ends its move action in the web', or 'willingly ends its move(ment) in the web' then yes, this would not work. And no, I didn't actually do this (not crazy enough to think a DM wouldn't fiat the Tarrasque to a win), but it is entirely possible as per the RAW, and is meant to highlight how terribly designed, and easily abused the Tarrasque (and Web) is in a humourous way.

EDIT: What's this about the Tarrasque ending its turn in the zone? There's no clause or passage in the power that references ending its turn. Don't you find it ironic that you're impugning my reading comprehension when you're referencing a passage that doesn't even exist?

Also why so hostile?

Cuaqchi

2011-03-28, 12:39 PM

Spiders. Seriously, regardless of size or level for whatever reason spiders provide greater threat than anything else. Had one under challenged encounter with spiders that almost ended in TPK which directly preceeded a level+3 encounter that we used a grand total of 3 surges to recover from with a 6 character party...

I don't know if its the webs, or the ongoing effects but spiders just do bad things...

Sipex

2011-03-28, 12:43 PM

Anything which is identified as a swarm really. Constant auto-damage due to auras plus 1/2 damage from direct attacks? Ouch.

evirus

2011-03-28, 01:43 PM

Hardest monster? An adamantine Golem....:smalltongue:

Sipex

2011-03-28, 01:46 PM

*Ba-dum pish*

TroubleBrewing

2011-03-28, 01:52 PM

Just last week. Level 10, 2 person party consisting of Fighter mounted on a griffon (me) and an almost unoptimized (in any meaningful sense) Paladin mounted on a blink dog.

Fought 8 wraiths, 1 dread wraith. We died horribly. I got spectacularly unlucky with my first fortitude save, rolling a 1 to save against the dread wraith's Con damaging attack. Took 8 Con damage, put me into the single digits and destroying any chance I had of saving against the normal wraiths. The paladin tried to turn, but since he's a paladin and not useful a cleric, it only drove off 3 of the wraiths. He held his own for a while until they killed his mount and just beat on him until he died.

Also, pretty sure this belongs in Roleplaying Games, not in the 4e specific section. Unless you meant for the responses to be only 4e.

mobdrazhar

2011-03-28, 06:24 PM

Wouldn't the dragons just fly away eventually?

the only exit was the tunnel that we came in from and thus they were chasing us to the exit

CakeTown

2011-03-28, 09:38 PM

Our DM recently made us fight an Elder Brown Dragon. I'm sure it was a level appropriate encounter, but it was a rather difficult fight. The room we fought the dragon in was really tiny. When the dragon used its breath weapon, the only safe places were 1)the 1 square wide hallway we came from or 2)the 1 square wide section on the opposite side of the room where his breath wouldn't fit.

Other annoying things about the battle:
-We had 2 characters who could only attack with ranged powers(seeker and wizard), so they got attacked each time they tried to do anything.
-The previously mentioned wizard specialized in fire spells. Unfortunately, the dragon's fire resistance made it so the wizard only did single digit damage.
-The dragon's special movement, the ranged counter, and the breath weapon left us blinded most of the fight.

We eventually won with no casualties, but the druid was pretty close to dying.

We thought that we were going to have a tough fight against a Dire Bulette last session, especially when we fell 80 feet into a hole and ended up fighting some golems and shapeshifters, but it turned out to be rather easy. Long story short, I used Dismissal to permanently remove the bulette from the plane.

Meta

2011-03-28, 11:38 PM

Incorrect: 'ends its move in the web' means if it ends any movement in the zone, including forced movement; movement is the act of leaving one square and entering another. If the wording was 'ends its move action in the web', or 'willingly ends its move(ment) in the web' then yes, this would not work. And no, I didn't actually do this (not crazy enough to think a DM wouldn't fiat the Tarrasque to a win), but it is entirely possible as per the RAW, and is meant to highlight how terribly designed, and easily abused the Tarrasque (and Web) is in a humourous way.

EDIT: What's this about the Tarrasque ending its turn in the zone? There's no clause or passage in the power that references ending its turn. Don't you find it ironic that you're impugning my reading comprehension when you're referencing a passage that doesn't even exist?

Also why so hostile?

You're inserting your own definition of what a move is in there.

From PHB:

FORCED MOVEMENT
✦ Line of Effect: You must have line of effect to any
square you pull, push, or slide a creature into.
✦ Distance in Squares: The power you’re using specifies
how many squares you can move a target. You
can choose to move the target fewer squares or not
to move it at all. You can’t move the target vertically.
✦ Specific Destination: Some powers don’t specify a
distance in squares but instead specify a destination,
such as “adjacent” (a square adjacent to you).
✦ No Opportunity Attacks: Forced movement does
not provoke opportunity attacks or other opportunity
actions.
✦ Ignore Difficult Terrain: Forced movement isn’t
hindered by difficult terrain.
✦ Not a Move: Forced movement doesn’t count
against a target’s ability to move on its turn. A target’s
speed is irrelevant to the distance you move it.

Clearly says that it's not 'a move' and meaning it's certainly not 'the tarrasque's move' so wont qualify for web's effect.

DragonBaneDM

2011-03-29, 02:29 PM

Yay! I don't feel like my party's victory was worthless now! :smallbiggrin:

Surrealistik

2011-03-29, 02:38 PM

You're inserting your own definition of what a move is in there.

From PHB:

FORCED MOVEMENT
✦ Line of Effect: You must have line of effect to any
square you pull, push, or slide a creature into.
✦ Distance in Squares: The power you’re using specifies
how many squares you can move a target. You
can choose to move the target fewer squares or not
to move it at all. You can’t move the target vertically.
✦ Specific Destination: Some powers don’t specify a
distance in squares but instead specify a destination,
such as “adjacent” (a square adjacent to you).
✦ No Opportunity Attacks: Forced movement does
not provoke opportunity attacks or other opportunity
actions.
✦ Ignore Difficult Terrain: Forced movement isn’t
hindered by difficult terrain.
✦ Not a Move: Forced movement doesn’t count
against a target’s ability to move on its turn. A target’s
speed is irrelevant to the distance you move it.

Clearly says that it's not 'a move' and meaning it's certainly not 'the tarrasque's move' so wont qualify for web's effect.

Actually I'm not. Rules Compendium (the authority on game rules/definitions) defines a move as follows, Page 200:

"move: Any instance of movement, whether it is done willingly or unwillingly. Whenever a creature, an object or an effect leaves another square to enter another, it is moving. Shifting, teleporting and being pushed are all examples of moves."

The Arcane Whirlwind slides the Tarrasque from one square in the zone to another square in the zone, therefore it ends its move in the web and is subject to immobilized (save ends).

Yeah, Kanye West is still gonna be letting it finish.

Sipex

2011-03-29, 03:38 PM

I'm going to point this out but can anyone define "ends it's move" in RAW quotes? I have a feeling it's probably meant to mean 'move action'.

Surrealistik

2011-03-29, 03:46 PM

It means what it says by the RAW which is move, which is defined above.

Meta

2011-03-29, 04:05 PM

Actually I'm not. Rules Compendium (the authority on game rules/definitions) defines a move as follows, Page 200:

"move: Any instance of movement, whether it is done willingly or unwillingly. Whenever a creature, an object or an effect leaves another square to enter another, it is moving. Shifting, teleporting and being pushed are all examples of moves."

The Arcane Whirlwind slides the Tarrasque from one square in the zone to another square in the zone, therefore it ends its move in the web and is subject to immobilized (save ends).

Yeah, Kanye West is still gonna be letting it finish.

The Rules Compendium also states:

A creature can make a saving throw to avoid being forced into hindering terrain, whether it is pushed, pulled, slid, teleported, or otherwise against its will.

Right below that it says:

Some hindering terrain might impose a penalty or harmful condition without dealing damage.

This gives the tarrasques saves to avoid your forced movement. It's also why ping pong builds are overrated.

If for some reason those RAW rules (straight out of the book you cited) displease you:

Tarrasque readies action. Trigger = Tarrasque succeeds at its immobilized saving throw. Action = run straight at wimpy little wizard who's about to be a meal.

- T Swift

Dekkah

2011-03-29, 04:11 PM

I'm going to point this out but can anyone define "ends it's move" in RAW quotes? I have a feeling it's probably meant to mean 'move action'.

I think Sipex is right here because of the way it is written.

It says "ends It's move".... which I think is meant to refere as the creature movement.
To affect all type of movement (to match the move description you shown us), I beleive it should be wrriten like this: "end a move".

I would not rule a force movement as a creature move (AKA it's move).

Seerow

2011-03-29, 04:15 PM

No mention of the original needlefang drake swarms?

Surrealistik

2011-03-29, 04:18 PM

I think Sipex is right here because of the way it is written.

It says "ends It's move".... which I think is meant to refere as the creature movement.
To affect all type of movement (to match the move description you shown us), I beleive it should be wrriten like this: "end a move".

I would not rule a force movement as a creature move (AKA it's move).

The tarrasque ended a move (as defined in the Rules Compendium) in the zone. It is therefore immobilized. There's no wiggle room here I'm afraid.

The Rules Compendium also states:

A creature can make a saving throw to avoid being forced into hindering terrain, whether it is pushed, pulled, slid, teleported, or otherwise against its will.

Right below that it says:

Some hindering terrain might impose a penalty or harmful condition without dealing damage.

This gives the tarrasques saves to avoid your forced movement. It's also why ping pong builds are overrated.

Except that doesn't work because zones and the like aren't actually hindering terrain:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/25587549/?pg=last

If for some reason those RAW rules (straight out of the book you cited) displease you:

Tarrasque readies action. Trigger = Tarrasque succeeds at its immobilized saving throw. Action = run straight at wimpy little wizard who's about to be a meal.

- T Swift

So how's the Tarrasque going to charge the wizard through four intervening spaces of difficult terrain again, given that each movement has to bring him closer to the Wizard?

Meta

2011-03-29, 04:26 PM

The tarrasque ended a move (as defined in the Rules Compendium) in the zone. It is therefore immobilized. There's no wiggle room here I'm afraid.

Except that doesn't work because zones and the like aren't actually hindering terrain:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/25587549/?pg=last

So how's the Tarrasque going to charge the wizard through four intervening spaces of difficult terrain again, given that each movement has to bring him closer to the Wizard?

well that update means saves won't save the tarrasque but the readied action will still work. I said run not charge you threw that word out. Or burrow if it so chooses

Surrealistik

2011-03-29, 04:36 PM

Okay my bad. In that case you need a surprise round as a level 9 Wizard (or another level 1 Wizard).

Web + Phantom Chasm + Arcane Whirlwind. Whirlwind knocks prone/immobilizes with forced movement each round. Not even a readied action's going to help the Tarrasque now.

Orb of Inescapable Consequences with Phantom Chasm and Web would work instead of a surprise round.

Orb of Karmic Resonance would also work instead of a surprise round.

I'm sure there are others.

Meta

2011-03-29, 05:03 PM

Surrealistik

2011-03-29, 05:17 PM

You won't hit with Phantom Chasm at level 9 and it immobilizes for 1 turn on a miss. Even if you do hit (5% chance) you buy yourself two turns. Not seeing how you'll defeat the tarrasque with that.

I don't think you understand how this works. Allow me to explain:

Phantom Chasm creates a zone that lasts until the end of the encounter, and any enemy that enters it gets automatically knocked prone.

Round #1:

Orb of Inevitable Consequences Daily makes sure that all non-damage effects hit. Therefore:

The Tarrasque will be knocked prone and immobilized until the end of my next turn.

Action Point: Web.

Tarrasque's turn, Tarrasque can do nothing.

Round #2:

Arcane Whirlwind: Slide Tarrasque in and out of Chasm. It is now prone and immobilized.

Tarrasque's turn, Tarrasque can do nothing. Tarrasque might save, if so all it can do is stand with its readied action.

Round #3:

Sustain Minor Arcane Whirlwind: Slide Tarrasque in and out of Chasm. It is now prone and immobilized

Magic Missile for automatic damage. Rinse and repeat until Tarrasque is dead.

Octopus Jack

2011-03-29, 05:20 PM

I can't remember the hardest monster I've ever faced but I remember a memorable one I sic'd on my party. Owlbear against a group of level 1s and 2s and to be fair they didn't have to fight it and were given ample preperation time, there best plan was run in and attack it mindlessly... didn't work out well.

Meta

2011-03-29, 05:33 PM

I don't think you understand how this works. Allow me to explain:

Phantom Chasm creates a zone that lasts until the end of the encounter, and any enemy that enters it gets automatically knocked prone.

Round #1:

Orb of Inevitable Consequences Daily makes sure that all non-damage effects hit. Therefore:

The Tarrasque will be knocked prone and immobilized until the end of my next turn.

Action Point: Web.

Tarrasque's turn, Tarrasque can do nothing.

Round #2:

Arcane Whirlwind: Slide Tarrasque in and out of Chasm. It is now prone and immobilized.

Tarrasque's turn, Tarrasque can do nothing. Tarrasque might save, if so all it can do is stand with its readied action.

Round #3:

Sustain Minor Arcane Whirlwind: Slide Tarrasque in and out of Chasm. It is now prone and immobilized

Magic Missile for automatic damage. Rinse and repeat until Tarrasque is dead.

Ahh I see, I was looking at AP Chasm, not the essentials one. I think it was very silly to reprint powers but ahh well.

A couple things:

As other people pointed out the power says "its move" not one you generate so I don't think that will work. At the very least you must admit that a DM could cite those rules and you'd have to admit it's a grey area and rule 0 would come into play.

Secondly, you won't actually be able to damage the tarrasque enough (if at all) with magic missile. Certainly not enough to kill it in 5 minutes when your effects could be ruled to end.

Thirdly, a tarrasque has action points as well, so on the turns you say it could do nothing it can just stand and then action point to move out of your zones. Move speed 10 if it runs.

Fourthly, I don't see a level 9 wizard beating the tarrasque's initiative/perception in order to achieve that first turn.

It's a neat combo but I don't think it works by RAW and any DM could call ya on how something like web is worded.

Surrealistik

2011-03-29, 06:17 PM

As other people pointed out the power says "its move" not one you generate so I don't think that will work. At the very least you must admit that a DM could cite those rules and you'd have to admit it's a grey area and rule 0 would come into play.

No I don't, because it, the tarrasque, ended its movement in the zone. By RAW this works absolutely.

Secondly, you won't actually be able to damage the tarrasque enough (if at all) with magic missile. Certainly not enough to kill it in 5 minutes when your effects could be ruled to end.

It says Encounter OR 5 minutes, not the lesser of the Encounter or 5 minutes.

And 2 + 6 Int mod @ L9 + 3 Implement is enough to damage.

Thirdly, a tarrasque has action points as well, so on the turns you say it could do nothing it can just stand and then action point to move out of your zones. Move speed 10 if it runs.

This is a bit of a problem, but I have a solution.

Tarrasque has to move through 3 squares of difficult terrain minimum at the centre of the Web, so 10 - 6 = 4, -1 to actually leave the Web. It can now move 3 squares away from the Web zone. So send your Arcane Whirlwind after it. Move action moves it 6 squares. Use Orb of Judicious Conjuration to Sustain as a Free Action (Battle Harness to draw another Orb of Judicious Conjuration as a free if needed). Use your minor to slide it back 4 squares. Convert your standard to a Minor to slide the target 4 squares (Petrified Orb, Orb Expertise). It's knocked prone and immobilized again.

Fourthly, I don't see a level 9 wizard beating the tarrasque's initiative/perception in order to achieve that first turn.

Strategist's Epiphany will secure him the turn. 6 (Intelligence) + 5 (Trained) + 4 (Level Bonus) + 2 (Background) + 3 (Skill Focus) + 2 (Item) = 22 + 1d20 vs Tarrasque's 23.

It's a neat combo but I don't think it works by RAW and any DM could call ya on how something like web is worded.

A DM could call me on Web, but he'd be house ruling.

You are also assuming the Tarrasque is played intelligently, as opposed to acting as its Tactics entry and 3 Int would suggest, i.e. attempting to brutalize the Wizard ASAP by the most obvious and direct means, ignoring everything else.

HealingWiseGuy

2011-03-29, 06:21 PM

The talk about the tarrasque is kind of flooding the thread...

Meta

2011-03-29, 06:59 PM

No I don't, because it, the tarrasque, ended its movement in the zone. By RAW this works absolutely.

It says Encounter OR 5 minutes, not the lesser of the Encounter or 5 minutes.

And 2 + 6 Int mod @ L9 + 3 Implement is enough to damage.

This is a bit of a problem, but I have a solution.

Tarrasque has to move through 3 squares of difficult terrain minimum at the centre of the Web, so 10 - 6 = 4, -1 to actually leave the Web. It can now move 3 squares away from the Web zone. So send your Arcane Whirlwind after it. Move action moves it 6 squares. Use Orb of Judicious Conjuration to Sustain as a Free Action (Battle Harness to draw another Orb of Judicious Conjuration as a free if needed). Use your minor to slide it back 4 squares. Convert your standard to a Minor to slide the target 4 squares (Petrified Orb, Orb Expertise). It's knocked prone and immobilized again.

Strategist's Epiphany will secure him the turn. 6 (Intelligence) + 5 (Trained) + 4 (Level Bonus) + 2 (Background) + 3 (Skill Focus) + 2 (Item) = 22 + 1d20 vs Tarrasque's 23.

A DM could call me on Web, but he'd be house ruling.

You are also assuming the Tarrasque is played intelligently, as opposed to acting as its Tactics entry and 3 Int would suggest, i.e. attempting to brutalize the Wizard ASAP by the most obvious and direct means, ignoring everything else.

Sorry mate, but I'm gonna have to say "its" movement is possessive. meaning it's the tarrasque doing it. You're not gonna be able to say "By RAW this works absolutely" because you're reading into the text just like everyone else. That's not house ruling, it's interpretation.

Also, burrow speed will get it out of web. Straight down. If you lay a web a creature can't get out of, it's going to go underground to escape it.

Cool strategy, but not clearly raw legal (or even possible it looks like) and not really useful in an actual game setting methinks. Also cluttering this poor person's thread.

Edit: We fought a lich/wizard/chimera that had a bunch of 3.X spells (though most of those have made their way into 4e now anyways) and a nasty fly speed. Coupled with blur and teleports it became difficult for a few of our players to make contributions.

The Shadow Hulk is an absolute monster of course.

Cranium Rat Swarms can be positively unbeatable in large enough numbers amusingly enough

Surrealistik

2011-03-29, 07:10 PM

Sorry mate, but I'm gonna have to say "its" movement is possessive. meaning it's the tarrasque doing it. You're not gonna be able to say "By RAW this works absolutely" because you're reading into the text just like everyone else. That's not house ruling, it's interpretation.

You're right, the Tarrasque is the one moving, and ending movement in the Web, and it's because you made it. Satisfies the wording. RAW is clear. I'll even get a CS ruling on it just for you; there's a reason why 'willingly' and 'move action' are used in power wordings.

Also, burrow speed will get it out of web. Straight down. If you lay a web a creature can't get out of, it's going to go underground to escape it.

This will work, but only if the ground beneath it isn't rock, or something comparable, otherwise it will not be able to burrow far enough to avoid your Whirlwind given the difficult terrain of the Web.

Cool strategy, but not clearly raw legal (or even possible it looks like) and not really useful in an actual game setting methinks. Also cluttering this poor person's thread.

To the contrary, it's perfectly and clearly RAW legal in spite of your obvious misperception of the rules and wording. As for cluttering the thread, you could have chosen to PM, but you didn't, and are just as complicit as I am.

Meta

2011-03-29, 08:02 PM

You're right, the Tarrasque is the one moving, and ending movement in the Web, and it's because you made it. Satisfies the wording. RAW is clear. I'll even get a CS ruling on it just for you; there's a reason why 'willingly' and 'move action' are used in power wordings.

This will work, but only if the ground beneath it isn't rock, or something comparable, otherwise it will not be able to burrow far enough to avoid your Whirlwind given the difficult terrain of the Web.

To the contrary, it's perfectly and clearly RAW legal in spite of your obvious misperception of the rules and wording. As for cluttering the thread, you could have chosen to PM, but you didn't, and are just as complicit as I am.

You seem to REALLY want this strat to work despite ambiguous wording, that apparently everyone but you sees. That's fine if your DM is cool with it. You're also silly to assume CS is the end all of discussions. CS has contradicted its self in the past and probably will again at some point.

And I have at least added to the discussion with my own monsters and not tried to reduce the accomplishments of others. Really though, I probably should have just let your inane derail go as you suggested.

Creatures that steal or munch on souls are annoying as death to them can possibly be permanent. Soulspike Devourer for instance.

Surrealistik

2011-03-29, 08:19 PM

You seem to REALLY want this strat to work despite ambiguous wording, that apparently everyone but you sees. That's fine if your DM is cool with it. You're also silly to assume CS is the end all of discussions. CS has contradicted its self in the past and probably will again at some point.

Uh oh, Meta and two other people think the wording is a little ambiguous, suppose that's 'everyone'. Guess that also completely overturns the WotC forum's thus far unanimous understanding of the power (this is just the latest thread featuring the question) complete with reasoning identical to my own, as well as any CS ruling to the contrary (as much as I agree that CS has often screwed the pooch):

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/27355305/Web_and_Forced_Movement

And I have at least added to the discussion with my own monsters and not tried to reduce the accomplishments of others. Really though, I probably should have just let your inane derail go as you suggested.

But of course, as is obvious, you clearly have a bone to pick with me due to some unresolved hard feelings in the PvP thread, so instead, you chose to publicly heckle me with nitpicking infinitely more ridiculous than any 'inane derail' of mine.

EDIT: Also, it should be noted that the idea was not to 'reduce' the accomplishments of others; it was a humourous idea that spontaneously came to mind when I saw the mention of the Tarrasque being beaten at L17, and I ran with it, though yeah, probably wasn't the most appropriate place to post it.

Meta

2011-03-29, 08:37 PM

Uh oh, Meta and two other people think the wording is a little ambiguous, suppose that's 'everyone'. Guess that also completely overturns the WotC forum's thus far unanimous understanding of the power (this is just the latest thread featuring the question) complete with reasoning identical to my own, as well as any CS ruling to the contrary (as much as I agree that CS has often screwed the pooch):

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/27355305/Web_and_Forced_Movement

But of course, as is obvious, you clearly have a bone to pick with me due to some unresolved hard feelings in the PvP thread, so instead, you chose to publicly heckle me with nitpicking infinitely more ridiculous than any 'inane derail' of mine.

EDIT: Also, it should be noted that the idea was not to 'reduce' the accomplishments of others; it was a humourous idea that spontaneously came to mind when I saw the mention of the Tarrasque being beaten at L17, and I ran with it, though yeah, probably wasn't the most appropriate place to post it.

Your ideas are definitely not world changing nor accurate enough to get worked about. The only thing that displeases me is you putting down my friend DBDM with an idea that is not only counterable has more than 1 person looking at with disdain.

I was right in the last thread, so there's no real reason to want to remind ya of that until ya made it personal

Surrealistik

2011-03-29, 09:09 PM

Your ideas are definitely not world changing nor accurate enough to get worked about. The only thing that displeases me is you putting down my friend DBDM with an idea that is not only counterable has more than 1 person looking at with disdain.

Lol, it's a 4e thought experiment, I should hope it's not 'world changing'. As for accurate, it's pretty evident that you're just wrong, and don't like it.

I also put down no one (not consciously anyways). It was a humourous exploration of the Tarrasque's glaring weaknesses; something I did admirably as you desperately struggled to find ways for it to wriggle out of the immobilize lock, with most of your criticisms being flat out wrong, and displaying an alarmingly tenuous understanding of the rules. Also who's 'more than 1 person' (keeping in mind that disputing a wording != looking at with disdain)? Sure you're not projecting?

EDIT: Oh wait, the guy who got scrubbed, because the thought of a L5 Wizard besting a poorly designed L30 solo apparently made him so mad he cited elements of Web that didn't exist while calling out my 'reading comprehension'; yeah that was classic. You got me there: suppose that's technically 'more than 1 person', you included.

I was right in the last thread, so there's no real reason to want to remind ya of that until ya made it personal

Right about what exactly? All I remember is you conceding my point after you incorrectly, ridiculously, and repeatedly argued that a general trend can be proven (or disproven) by a single combat that in reality had nothing to do with that trend.

Vknight

2011-03-29, 09:27 PM

As interesting as this debate is the thread is going that way and I think we want to get back on it

Meta

2011-03-29, 10:32 PM

{Scrubbed}

Surrealistik

2011-03-29, 10:51 PM

{Scrubbed]

Meta

2011-03-30, 12:05 AM

How nice of you to take the morale high ground.

"I think Sipex is right here because of the way it is written.

It says "ends It's move".... which I think is meant to refere as the creature movement.
To affect all type of movement (to match the move description you shown us), I beleive it should be wrriten like this: "end a move".

I would not rule a force movement as a creature move (AKA it's move)."

I really don't mind you using that wording to make your plan work, I still have pointed out other reasons it won't. No idea why you've made this quite so personal.

Surrealistik

2011-03-30, 12:47 AM

Oh you mean burrow?

Yeah, fixed by multiclassing druid, taking Adept Power at L10, swapping out an L1 Daily for Earth Roots:

Earth Roots + Web on the opening turn. War Staff Daily to expand Earth Roots to an Area 2 centred on the Tarrasque (this means Earth Roots goes down 2 squares underground with an origin square on the surface).

Tarrasque starts his turn slowed due to Earth Roots. Doesn't matter if he double moves to burrow and spends an action point to burrow again in sheer desperation, because he's at least 4 squares tall being gargantuan, and will be within 2 squares of the Area 2 (highest point will be at depth 2), even if you assume Web's difficult terrain effect does not affect the ground within its AoE.

Earth Roots slides him 4 squares up on the sustain (Petrified Orb + Orb Expertise, doesn't need line of effect; it just says within 2 squares of the zone). The top 2 squares of his body will surface, and he will be immobilized by the Web. Arcane Whirlwind isn't necessary (substitute with say Fire Wall to make the killing go faster; you can even ping/pong), since the Tarrasque's movement will always be at a deficit of 2 squares.

Not quite Level 5, but you're still soloing an L30 solo in Heroic, and you don't even have to overspecialise yourself to do it. Not bad at all.

And yes, you've pointed out the 2 people who agree with you (which I've acknowledged). What's your point exactly? You're still wrong. As I've said, there's a reason why 'willingly' and 'move action' are used when wording powers.

Crossfiyah

2011-03-30, 12:52 AM

Oh yeah. That Lich Chimera Wizard was an absolute bitch. Fly Speed + Blur + Cloudkill and 3 standard actions per round.

He wouldn't lose to Web + Arcane Whirlwind either.

Meta

2011-03-30, 01:00 AM

Tarrasque can just squeeze in that case. The penalties will do nothing to him. You're trying real hard though.

Surrealistik

2011-03-30, 01:07 AM

Tarrasque can just squeeze in that case. The penalties will do nothing to him. You're trying real hard though.

Except that won't work because he'll still be in range; likewise by the way.

Meta

2011-03-30, 01:31 AM

Except that won't work because he'll still be in range; likewise by the way.

He won't be in range. You can't move him vertically so across two APs he'll get away.

Rules Compendium page 213

Surrealistik

2011-03-30, 01:45 AM

He won't be in range. You can't move him vertically so across two APs he'll get away.

Rules Compendium page 213

Yes he will. He moves half speed. Half speed of 2 is 1. Squeezing takes a move action, so there's no net gain of distance. In otherwords:

Move 1: 2 squares down. His uppermost part is 2 squares above ground.
Move 2: 4 squares down. His uppermost part is even with the ground.
Move 3: 1 square down, and squeeze. His uppermost part is 2 squares beneath the ground. The Zone goes 2 squares underground, and it can slide enemies within a further 2 squares of it. He's not far enough away, and he can only spend 1 AP each turn.

As for 213, right back at you: if the target is moved through a substance, like water, or in this case earth, it can be moved on a three dimensional basis; in otherwords up.

Try again?

Hazzardevil

2011-03-30, 01:56 AM

I won't get involved with the taaresque thing because I'm not a rules lawyer but I think Surrealistik is right.

My party of level 1's fought the cooking pot from pathfinder in Hollow's last hope. It was a bitch to kill because its AC and DR were almost as good as a Dread Necromancer at level 3.
Apparently a party running parallel to ours in Real life ;took even longer because they were a lot of average BAB classes.

Meta

2011-03-30, 01:56 AM

Yes he will. He moves half speed. Half speed of 2 is 1. Squeezing takes a move action, so there's no net gain of distance. In otherwords:

Move 1: 2 squares down. His uppermost part is 2 squares above ground.
Move 2: 4 squares down. His uppermost part is even with the ground.
Move 3: 1 square down, and squeeze. His uppermost part is 2 squares beneath the ground. The Zone goes 2 squares underground, and it can slide enemies within a further 2 squares of it. He's not far enough away, and he can only spend 1 AP each turn.

As for 213, right back at you: if the target is moved through a substance, like water, or in this case earth, it can be moved on a three dimensional basis; in otherwords up.

Try again?

I don't see how water is like earth at all. While we're at it let's say moving through air is the same thing.

While we're talking about earth though, the ground will count as blocking terrain which means you don't have line of effect to it, so you can't place a zone there, anyways.

Surrealistik

2011-03-30, 09:30 AM

I don't see how water is like earth at all. While we're at it let's say moving through air is the same thing.

While we're talking about earth though, the ground will count as blocking terrain which means you don't have line of effect to it, so you can't place a zone there, anyways.

The zone's not underground; the origin square is on the surface. That said, Earth Roots' slide effect doesn't need line of effect to begin with.

But here's the real kicker: The Tarrasque just willingly ended its movement in the Web:

Move 1: Burrow 2 squares, top 2 squares of the Tarrasque are in the web, Tarrasque is immobilized, and cannot move again.

Say the Tarrasque saves, and had reserved an action to burrow again; another two squares. It's occupying every square that was previously beneath it. I don't even need to explicitly slide it through blocking terrain (because it occupies every square), and I have line of effect to the squares I want to slide it into. The medium/substance my forced movement is sliding it through clearly supports the Tarrasque. I think we're done here.

Meta

2011-03-30, 10:01 AM

The zone's not underground; the origin square is on the surface. That said, Earth Roots' slide effect doesn't need line of effect to begin with.

But here's the real kicker: The Tarrasque just willingly ended its movement in the Web:

Move 1: Burrow 2 squares, top 2 squares of the Tarrasque are in the web, Tarrasque is immobilized, and cannot move again.

Say the Tarrasque saves, and had reserved an action to burrow again; another two squares. It's occupying every square that was previously beneath it. I don't even need to explicitly slide it through blocking terrain (because it occupies every square), and I have line of effect to the squares I want to slide it into. The medium/substance my forced movement is sliding it through clearly supports the Tarrasque. I think we're done here.

If he's 4 squares down you can't see him and then he's home free

Surrealistik

2011-03-30, 10:11 AM

If he's 4 squares down you can't see him and then he's home free

All he needs to be is within 2 squares of Earth Roots for me to slide him; it doesn't say a creature I can see, it says a creature within 2 squares.

Meta

2011-03-30, 10:48 AM

All he needs to be is within 2 squares of Earth Roots for me to slide him; it doesn't say a creature I can see, it says a creature within 2 squares.

you don't have line of effect so no you can't. It's also irrelevant. You can run while slowed, so he can move 4 squares in a single action. He's fine

Sipex

2011-03-30, 10:50 AM

Ah, but the PhB conflicts in this point and the compendium does contain errata but we don't know if this is errata or not.

Plus the attack in question comes from the PhB (or one of the splatbooks meant to go with the PhB, not essentials) which would mean to me, that if the rule quoted from the compendium isn't in formal errata that it's up for debate.

DontEatRawHagis

2011-03-30, 11:15 AM

Two encounters I did:

First:

First encounter of Dark Sun Fury of the Wastewalker. I got rid of the constant 5 damage at the start of your turn due to sandstorm and still i almost blasted away the entire party of lvl 1s with one Psionic Detonation from a lvl 3 Silt Runner.

Second:

Dust Devils that had a bit of too much luck on initiative. I ended up knocking out the wizard and the healer into quicksand.

Surrealistik

2011-03-30, 11:15 AM

you don't have line of effect so no you can't.

I only need line of effect to the squares I want to slide him into which I have. I do not need line of effect to the Tarrasque itself; the effect states that he only needs to be within 2 squares of the zone for this to work, which he is, so it does.

It's also irrelevant. You can run while slowed, so he can move 4 squares in a single action. He's fine

Wrong again; don't you hate it when that happens? Page 234, slowed condition. Yes, it can take a run action, but it won't actually benefit from the speed increase.

Ah, but the PhB conflicts in this point and the compendium does contain errata but we don't know if this is errata or not.

Plus the attack in question comes from the PhB (or one of the splatbooks meant to go with the PhB, not essentials) which would mean to me, that if the rule quoted from the compendium isn't in formal errata that it's up for debate.

No it's not; the rules changed, the power didn't. By the RAW, there is no debate. Further, all the rules in the Rules Compendium are the definitive, and most up to date version of the rules unless otherwise noted.

tcrudisi

2011-03-30, 11:34 AM

Wrong again; don't you hate it when that happens? Page 234, slowed condition. Yes, it can take a run action, but it won't actually benefit from the speed increase.

You've been mostly correct up to this point so I've not intervened, but you are wrong on this one.

Slowed condition, page 234: ... it can use powers and take actions, such as the run action, that allow it to move farther than its speed.

Surrealistik

2011-03-30, 11:45 AM

You've been mostly correct up to this point so I've not intervened, but you are wrong on this one.

Slowed condition, page 234: ... it can use powers and take actions, such as the run action, that allow it to move farther than its speed.

Yes, it can _take_ that action, but it _doesn't_ say that action can actually allow it to move farther.

Sipex

2011-03-30, 12:06 PM

I've not read the rules compendium, does it state that it's the definitive rule set for 4e, overriding the older rules? I can understand if it's errata because that's what errata is but otherwise this is just a rule of thumb that players implemented to make rules debates easier and would be up for discussion on a group by group basis.

I understand you said you'd give it up if your DM said 'no' but I want to get this more or less defined in general.

A lot of these debates turn into definition debates around here...

tcrudisi

2011-03-30, 12:30 PM

Yes, it can _take_ that action, but it _doesn't_ say that action can actually allow it to move farther.

Wait, so you read something that says:
You can take an action, like running, that lets you move farther than your speed

and you read that as "you still only move 2"?

How do you judge something like a power that says, "Effect: Move 6 squares, then make the following attack." Are you arguing that you could only move 2?

Slowed simply says your speed becomes 2 and you cannot benefit from any bonuses to your speed. A bonus is defined as a number added to a die roll (Rules Compendium 309). Run allows you to move your speed +2. Since your speed is not a die roll, that is not a bonus, ergo you get the additional +2.

Surrealistik

2011-03-30, 12:37 PM

Wait, so you read something that says:
You can take an action, like running, that lets you move farther than your speed

and you read that as "you still only move 2"?

How do you judge something like a power that says, "Effect: Move 6 squares, then make the following attack." Are you arguing that you could only move 2?

Slowed simply says your speed becomes 2 and you cannot benefit from any bonuses to your speed. A bonus is defined as a number added to a die roll (Rules Compendium 309). Run allows you to move your speed +2. Since your speed is not a die roll, that is not a bonus, ergo you get the additional +2.

You do realize then that if the definition of a 'bonus' as defined there were true without exception, there'd be no such thing as a speed bonus that the wording references, right? Countless powers feature a bonus to speed, so clearly bonuses as an incrementation to speed exists. As an example, the Avenger L1 Daily, Aspect of Might provides a +2 power bonus to speed.

EDIT: I did find an official ruling on Slowed and Speed interactions specifically though and yes, because of the precise language in that Run doesn't actually increase speed, the Tarrasque could travel 4 squares.

Meta

2011-03-30, 12:38 PM

Yes, it can _take_ that action, but it _doesn't_ say that action can actually allow it to move farther.

You've let this get to you way too much so you won't admit you're wrong but it says pretty clearly that you can run while slowed and you'll move your speed plus +2

tcrudisi

2011-03-30, 12:40 PM

You do realize then that if the definition of a 'bonus' as defined there were true without exception, there'd be no such thing as a speed bonus that the wording references, right? Countless powers feature a bonus to speed, so clearly bonuses as an incrementation to speed exists. As an example, the Avenger L1 Daily, Aspect of Might provides a +2 power bonus to speed.

Specific versus general.

If something specifically says that it gives a +2 power bonus to speed, that is specifically breaking the general rule.

If something says that it gives +2 speed? That is not saying it is a bonus, ergo it is not.

Surrealistik

2011-03-30, 12:47 PM

You've let this get to you way too much so you won't admit you're wrong but it says pretty clearly that you can run while slowed and you'll move your speed plus +2

Except I just did. Still, the Tarrasque is going to get owned on any rock-like or similar terrain, no exceptions.

Also Wall of Fire in the Tarrasque's squares will work to prevent this; just use it instead of Web, takes 3 more squares of movement to go through.

Lastly, as ever, the Tarrasque run burrowing instead of attempting to go straight after the Wizard is questionable at best between its stated tactics and 3 Int.

Sipex

2011-03-30, 12:54 PM

Okay, now you just seem desperate to be right. I can understand the want to say "This will work under X/Y/Z conditions." but it kind of loses it's edge when you say "This will work because the monster HAS to use X tactics due to Y reasons."

Really, that's the DM's call. They can decide that the monster is confused after a couple rounds why it isn't escaping and it decides to burrow to safety.

edit: Not any monster of course, but the Terrasque has an actual burrow speed. It's like insisting a Harpy won't try to fly away when on-foot becomes a problem because it's tactics say it tries to stay on the ground due to clumsy flight.

Surrealistik

2011-03-30, 12:59 PM

Again, I hardly think it's a stretch. It's almost comparable to a zombie prioritizing targets instead of going after the nearest one, or respecting marks. You can disagree with that though, but it's worth noting the silliness of theory crafting a strategy for a creature that clearly doesn't have the mental faculties to enact it, or at least enact it immediately. I will grant though that the Tarrasque could figure out burrowing is a winning option eventually.

Wall of Fire still stops him from burrowing; each square he enters costs 3 additional movement, which means he can move exactly 1 square on each 'run-burrow'. It doesn't specify, like Difficult Terrain, that you only count squares of the wall being entered for the first time, and that squares the Tarrasque already occupied are discounted, just that he enters a square occupied by the wall.

tcrudisi

2011-03-30, 01:02 PM

It says Encounter OR 5 minutes, not the lesser of the Encounter or 5 minutes.

I just wanted to bring up this one last point.

Just to repost it: Until the End of the Encounter: The effect ends when you take a rest (short or extended) or after 5 minutes.

Think about what the or means. Did you take a short rest? It's the end of the encounter. Has it been 5 minutes? It's the end of the encounter. If it said "and", that would mean that both conditions would have to be fulfilled. Since it's "or", only one condition need be fulfilled. In this case, that's either taking a rest or after 5 minutes.

By definition it is the lesser of the two. Otherwise it would be "and".

tcrudisi

2011-03-30, 01:07 PM

I will grant though that the Tarrasque could figure out burrowing is a winning option eventually.

I am thinking of a Cat. Animal intelligence (3), but still very cunning. An angry cat will try to attack you at first. It will quickly learn that it's approach isn't working then go to other tactics that use it's abilities better. It'll try to hide and pounce, for instance.

A Tarrasque has burrow as one of its movement modes. That means that it has the tactic of burrowing up to its prey. Do you really think that a creature as old as the Tarrasque would not have learned how to burrow up to its prey? Sure, it may try to move up to it the old fashioned way for a few turns, but you are talking about a level 9 wizard, yes? I imagine that about the time the Tarrasque gets bloodied, it's going to go, "Hmm... this isn't working. Let me switch to another hunting method."

Actually, it's thought process would be "Ouch, ouch ouch. Dig. Earth." From there it will either try to escape or try to eat the Wizard. Ya know, depending on if it wants fight or flight.

Surrealistik

2011-03-30, 01:09 PM

I just wanted to bring up this one last point.

Just to repost it: Until the End of the Encounter: The effect ends when you take a rest (short or extended) or after 5 minutes.

Think about what the or means. Did you take a short rest? It's the end of the encounter. Has it been 5 minutes? It's the end of the encounter. If it said "and", that would mean that both conditions would have to be fulfilled. Since it's "or", only one condition need be fulfilled. In this case, that's either taking a rest or after 5 minutes.

By definition it is the lesser of the two. Otherwise it would be "and".

Except that it could be interpreted that the user chooses which of the two conditions terminate the effect.

Sipex

2011-03-30, 01:10 PM

Heh, I had a whole cat post written up as well but tcrudisi summed it up very well.

Sipex

2011-03-30, 01:13 PM

Except that it could be interpreted that the user chooses which of the two conditions terminate the effect.

Your situation is very shaky then. It relies on at least two places where the rules aren't 100% to be interpreted the way you see it. Move has to mean forced movement is included and not simply end at move action, the power has to be end of encounter as priority and not whichever comes first.

It's feasible yes, but hardly RAW.

Surrealistik

2011-03-30, 01:13 PM

Heh, I had a whole cat post written up as well but tcrudisi summed it up very well.

I'm not sure what the point of it was given that I acknowledged it could eventually figure out that burrowing was required.

Your situation is very shaky then. It relies on at least two places where the rules aren't 100% to be interpreted the way you see it. Move has to mean forced movement is included and not simply end at move action, the power has to be end of encounter as priority and not whichever comes first.

It's feasible yes, but hardly RAW.

One at best. The Web mechanic definitely works as per RAW, without question, and is simply not a matter of interpretation. It may not be RAI given that when it came out, the movement had to be willing, and the rules have changed since, by but RAW, it straight up, flat out works. Rules Compendium is the latest and therefore most definitive rules source unless otherwise noted. That said, it actually isn't even critical given Wall of Fire.

The ruling on duration by contrast is however.

EDIT: Customer Service also agrees with the WotC forum's unanimous verdict; think we can consider this resolved:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/Orangefinger/WebForcedMovement.jpg

Meta

2011-03-30, 01:41 PM

It is impossible to place wall of fire in such a way that it blocks the tarrasque's escape in every direction.

Also, wisdom 18.

Sipex

2011-03-30, 01:54 PM

I'm not sure what the point of it was given that I acknowledged it could eventually figure out that burrowing was required.

One at best. The Web mechanic definitely works as per RAW, without question, and is simply not a matter of interpretation. It may not be RAI given that when it came out, the movement had to be willing, and the rules have changed since, by but RAW, it straight up, flat out works. Rules Compendium is the latest and therefore most definitive rules source unless otherwise noted. That said, it actually isn't even critical given Wall of Fire.

The ruling on duration by contrast is however.

EDIT: Customer Service also agrees with the WotC forum's unanimous verdict; think we can consider this resolved:

Alright, I'll concede there, I just wanted some definitive proof.

We still need to resolve my second point though, is there anything which states whether End of Encounter/5 Minutes is meant to be 'First condition met' or 'If the first doesn't occur (due to not being in an encounter) only then does the second condition come into play.'

Not that it matters really because there's still the burrowing thing too.

I'm all for neat combinations which are incredibly effective (even Terrasque killing effective) but it has to be indisputable, otherwise the DM is probably going to turn it over at the first place the rules are unclear.

Surrealistik

2011-03-30, 02:14 PM

It is impossible to place wall of fire in such a way that it blocks the tarrasque's escape in every direction.

Also, wisdom 18.

Architect's Staff totally shuts the Tarrasque down: a +2 instance of it will ensure some part of the Tarrasque must pass through a square of the wall a minimum of 3 times (U shape 4 right, 2 down, another 4 left, wall is 4 squares high), so his head will always be sticking out by the third movement (he can only descend a maximum of 3 squares), and easily within range of your Earth Roots, which will slide him back up.

MLH

2011-03-30, 02:25 PM

We still need to resolve my second point though, is there anything which states whether End of Encounter/5 Minutes is meant to be 'First condition met' or 'If the first doesn't occur (due to not being in an encounter) only then does the second condition come into play.'

Rules Compendium page 226 defines the duration "until the end of the encounter" as "the effect ends at the end of the current encounter or after 5 minutes, whichever comes first." Emphasis mine. Even if you assume the specific language in Web is not meant to state exactly that and is actually intended to allow you to pick either of the two, it ends after five minutes either way.

Surrealistik

2011-03-30, 02:29 PM

Rules Compendium page 226 defines the duration "until the end of the encounter" as "the effect ends at the end of the current encounter or after 5 minutes, whichever comes first." Emphasis mine. Even if you assume the specific language in Web is not meant to state exactly that and is actually intended to allow you to pick either of the two, it ends after five minutes either way.

Ah good catch. Yeah, in that case, not possible, unless we can somehow figure out a way for the Wizard to do an average of 38.4 damage each turn. You could still easily kill it with a small Heroic tier party though using more sources of auto-damage (another Wizard with Arcane Whirlwind Ping/Pong and Stinking Cloud would work admirably), but the solo L10 Wizard isn't going to fly.

Reverent-One

2011-03-30, 03:01 PM

Architect's Staff totally shuts the Tarrasque down: a +2 instance of it will ensure some part of the Tarrasque must pass through a square of the wall a minimum of 3 times (U shape 4 right, 2 down, another 4 left, wall is 4 squares high), so his head will always be sticking out by the third movement (he can only descend a maximum of 3 squares), and easily within range of your Earth Roots, which will slide him back up.

Well, you can't slide him back up into a square with the Wall of Fire in it with Earth Roots (assuming I am correct that in understand Earth Roots lets you slide the target 2 squares) since entering a square with Fire in it cost 3 extra squares of movement, even forced movement. Forced movement may ignore difficult terrain, but walls/zones/ect aren't terrain. See PHB FAQ answer:

27. Can you slide a target multiple times (by using a warlock's diabolic grasp or harrowstorm powers) into a wizard's wall of fire for iterative damage?

There are several factors to take into consideration here. First, a target must move into the wall's space—that is, moving into every square of that space does not inflict iterative damage. However, if a target moves into the wall's space, then back out, and then back in again, it will take more damage; but remember, entering each square occupied by the wall costs 3 extra squares of movement (which might be possible with a high-level use of a harrowstorm).

Crossfiyah

2011-03-30, 03:11 PM

Surrealistik

2011-03-30, 05:43 PM

Well, you can't slide him back up into a square with the Wall of Fire in it with Earth Roots (assuming I am correct that in understand Earth Roots lets you slide the target 2 squares) since entering a square with Fire in it cost 3 extra squares of movement, even forced movement. Forced movement may ignore difficult terrain, but walls/zones/ect aren't terrain. See PHB FAQ answer:

Yeah true, you're going to need two Wizards, or 1 Wizard and 1 Druid or Wizard. Web/Arcane Whirlwind, Earth Roots/Damage Power (Stinking Cloud for example). Strategist's Epiphany guarantees they both go first.

Earth Roots/Stinking Cloud goes first.
Web/Arcane Whirlwind second, four dings (2x slide 3, forceful implement), (for 1d10+6+2 (Implement) + 2 (Dual Implement) + 2 (Staff of Ruin) + 1 (Siberys Shard of Mage) = 34 average poison damage. Earth Roots can ding twice for 51 average damage. Another 8.5 damage during the Tarrasque's turn because it begins its turn in the zone. More than adequate damage to kill the Tarrasque before the duration of the effects wear off.

Tarrasque in the meanwhile starts out slowed and immobilized. He can reserve an action to run 4, but it won't matter, because he just gets slid 4 squares up right back where he started.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca.

Still mad I see.

Meta

2011-03-30, 05:53 PM

Yeah true, you're going to need two Wizards, or 1 Wizard and 1 Druid or Wizard. Web/Arcane Whirlwind, Earth Roots/Damage Power (Stinking Cloud for example). Strategist's Epiphany guarantees they both go first.

Earth Roots/Stinking Cloud goes first.
Web/Arcane Whirlwind second, four dings (2x slide 3, forceful implement), (for 1d10+6+2 (Implement) + 2 (Dual Implement) + 2 (Staff of Ruin) + 1 (Siberys Shard of Mage) = 34 average poison damage. Earth Roots can ding twice for 51 average damage. Another 8.5 damage during the Tarrasque's turn because it begins its turn in the zone. More than adequate damage to kill the Tarrasque before the duration of the effects wear off.

Tarrasque in the meanwhile starts out slowed and immobilized. He can reserve an action to run 4, but it won't matter, because he just gets slid 4 squares up right back where he started.

Still mad I see. It makes sense though, since you're apparently one of the people who thought they actually accomplished something by beating such a poorly designed monster at L17, when a tiny two man team of dink, Heroic level controllers can do it effortlessly, using items, feats and powers they'd normally take in the first place.

{Scrubbed}

Also, any monster can get beat handily by the wrong matchup. Vecna is a pretty nasty monster yea? Not so much against a party of revenants.

Anyone can devise a strat to handle a specific monster, but usually those characters becomes too one-two trick pony, so a good DM can capitalize on that specificity.

Cealocanth

2011-03-30, 06:01 PM

(4e) The hardest monster I've thrown at my group would have to be a lvl 4ish Spirit of the Desert (homebrewed, really just a Spirit of Winter with level and name changed, as well things like Cold turning to Fire and changing power names to match) against a level 2 Rogue and a level 2 Rouge-ish DMPC. Mind you it was a Solo and thanks to storyline complications a lvl 3ish Elite Raider Nightblade (homebrewed, re-occuring villian, I use a lot of homebrewed monsters.) decided to show his face and duke it out with the pair. Each of them were pushed under 0 HP at least once and they both walked away with 20ish RADS under their belt but they managed to survive. It was also the hardest encounter I've ever thrown at any member of my party, but the upcoming session may change that.

Surrealistik

2011-03-30, 06:08 PM

ya got trolled...

Also, any monster can get beat handily by the wrong matchup. Vecna is a pretty nasty monster yea? Not so much against a party of revenants.

Anyone can devise a strat to handle a specific monster, but usually those characters becomes too one-two trick pony, so a good DM can capitalize on that specificity.

Except that these aren't one/two trick ponies so much as well-rounded, powerful controllers picking options/items/powers they normally would anyways. All of those build choices are competitive if not top tier.

Also Vecna's nothing compared to any save penalizing controller. He just dominates Vecna, stacking on every imaginable penalty to his saving throw, then has him deactivate his aura as a minor on his turn. Everyone can go to town, and attack him with impunity.

Meta

2011-03-30, 06:22 PM

Except that these aren't one/two trick ponies so much as well-rounded, powerful controllers picking options/items/powers they normally would anyways. All of those build choices are competitive if not top tier.

Also Vecna's nothing compared to any save penalizing controller. He just dominates Vecna, stacking on every imaginable penalty to his saving throw, then has him deactivate his aura as a minor on his turn. Everyone can go to town, and attack him with impunity.

Maybe nothing to a level 30 save penalizer controller in a party, but that kinda goes without saying and isn't that impressive. Solos are already underpowered in 4e so letting a party fight a boss with all or even most of its resources is usually gonna be silly unless you have built the monster around countering PCs.

And those two pcs are good at taking out one melee foe but a bunch of lower level monsters from multiple sides for the average 4-5 encounters a day? They're gonna get beat. Certainly good builds but not that well rounded. Controllers in general are pretty much glass cannons that get messed up when Plan A and B doesn't work

Surrealistik

2011-03-30, 06:40 PM

Maybe nothing to a level 30 save penalizer controller in a party, but that kinda goes without saying and isn't that impressive. Solos are already underpowered in 4e so letting a party fight a boss with all or even most of its resources is usually gonna be silly unless you have built the monster around countering PCs.

At Epic regaining Dailies tends to be quite easy and consistently doable. I never said godspanking with an optimized save penalizer was impressive either.

That said Solos aren't necessarily underpowered; it all depends on design, specifically the number of actions they get, and the resistance they have to debilitating conditions. Tiamat is an example of a (relatively) well designed solo as contrasted to Vecna.

And those two pcs are good at taking out one melee foe but a bunch of lower level monsters from multiple sides for the average 4-5 encounters a day? They're gonna get beat. Certainly good builds but not that well rounded. Controllers in general are pretty much glass cannons that get messed up when Plan A and B doesn't work

No one has ever said that two controllers, even two well built controllers such as these are would make a good standard adventuring party by themselves, but these would be effective in the context of a same level party, and do their job well. By well-rounded I don't mean they can literally 'do it all', so much as they can do a variety of things within their role well.

Meta

2011-03-30, 10:37 PM

At Epic regaining Dailies tends to be quite easy and consistently doable. I never said godspanking with an optimized save penalizer was impressive either.

That said Solos aren't necessarily underpowered; it all depends on design, specifically the number of actions they get, and the resistance they have to debilitating conditions. Tiamat is an example of a (relatively) well designed solo as contrasted to Vecna.

No one has ever said that two controllers, even two well built controllers such as these are would make a good standard adventuring party by themselves, but these would be effective in the context of a same level party, and do their job well. By well-rounded I don't mean they can literally 'do it all', so much as they can do a variety of things within their role well.

I see, I thought we were still talking solo heroes. Really, almost every character can be effective in a party, even classes weak at their role like seekers or assassins can find success.

Surrealistik

2011-03-30, 10:42 PM

I see, I thought we were still talking solo heroes. Really, almost every character can be effective in a party, even classes weak at their role like seekers or assassins can find success.

I'm pretty sure I was never arguing or advocating that a controller could be a capable solo adventurer.

Also, yes, almost every character can be effective; 4e makes it hard to build a truly bad character. These controllers are fairly optimized however; they will do their jobs far better than a substantial majority of builds.

Crossfiyah

2011-03-30, 11:58 PM

{Scrubbed}

Surrealistik

2011-03-31, 12:10 AM

And everyone is thoroughly impressed. Done now?

{{scrubbed}}

Also the intent of that post wasn't to impress so much as to correct Meta's misunderstanding; the builds are fairly optimized, but as a whole they are not revolutionary (though they will spank a Tarrasque).

Meta

2011-03-31, 12:21 AM

Wait, wasn't that _your_ aim, what with the whole "I beat Tarrasque at level 17 bit"? Lul. Still bitter I see.

Also the intent of that post wasn't to impress so much as to correct Meta's misunderstanding; the builds are fairly optimized, but as a whole they are not revolutionary (though they will spank a Tarrasque).

He didn't beat the tarrasque, he dmed. {Scrubbed} But yes, orbizards have been around since PHB 1 and they are a good build. Slightly less abusive after errata but strong.

Surrealistik

2011-03-31, 12:37 AM

He didn't beat the tarrasque, he dmed. still trolling you. But yes, orbizards have been around since PHB 1 and they are a good build. Slightly less abusive after errata but strong.

Not even orbizards, just save abusers.

Also, I hope he keeps it up so the mods can upgrade his warning to an infraction (and preferably a ban in time).

Meta

2011-03-31, 01:13 AM

Not even orbizards, just save abusers.

Also, I hope he keeps it up so the mods can upgrade his warning to an infraction (and preferably a ban in time).

I would say orb users are the best to utilize save ends effects but given that the standard package is mostly item oriented, most classes can do it

Surrealistik

2011-03-31, 01:18 AM

I would say orb users are the best to utilize save ends effects but given that the standard package is mostly item oriented, most classes can do it

That's probably true for Heroic and maybe Paragon; the edge they have when it comes to save penalization at these tiers is small but significant. Beyond however, you can usually stack penalties to the point that the orb feature is inconsequential or even wholly redundant (yes, even for solos). Personally I would rather play an Enchantusionist, and find them overall more powerful (and fun).

Sipex

2011-03-31, 09:25 AM

Surrealistik

2011-03-31, 10:12 AM

Surreal, you're not being a saint either so you can't talk.

That said, the team of Wizard & Druid would have to know what they're going up against before building their characters. Mind, the trick would work against most single or tightly grouped melee land based creatures but they would be easily countered by a spread out monster party, anything with range or any monster which has an attack which allows it to move X squares as part of the attack.

It would be interesting to see a 5 character party which was based around the whole concept of setting this up and corralling all the monsters into the zone though.

That's not true, because you're completely discounting their at-wills and encounters, which feature plenty of forced movement; I didn't factor these in the Tarrasque battle because most of them need to hit to have any effect. Further, Arcane Whirlwind can chase enemies around with auto-hit forced movement. Web and Architect Staff Earth Roots have huge AoEs, as does Stinking Cloud. Stinking Cloud is also movable like Arcane Whirlwind.

Finally, while they're built to beat the Tarrasque, the powers, feats and items they have are all something you could normally expect to see on relatively optimized characters.

Sipex

2011-03-31, 10:30 AM

Oh yeah, don't get me started on web. I used to DM a group with two wizards and that was always the first spell out on the field.

This set up would be amazing for most dungeon sized encounters because of the cramped area ways, you could probably get through some well planned encounters with minimal or no damage.

It does require the burn of two dailies on the wizard's half though but you can almost always bet that they'd save those spells for the hardest fights.

Does the tornado require a sustain minor action or does it stick around like web?

Surrealistik

2011-03-31, 10:32 AM

tcrudisi

2011-03-31, 10:45 AM

That said, the team of Wizard & Druid would have to know what they're going up against before building their characters. Mind, the trick would work against most single or tightly grouped melee land based creatures but they would be easily countered by a spread out monster party, anything with range or any monster which has an attack which allows it to move X squares as part of the attack.

It would be interesting to see a 5 character party which was based around the whole concept of setting this up and corralling all the monsters into the zone though.

Actually, funny you should mention that.

My fiancée and I have been playing a Wizard/Druid combo for LFR for the past few months. We just hit level 11, so I can comment on my experiences through the heroic tier. I play the Wizard and she plays the Druid.

We have 0 problems in combat. In fact, if the monsters are separated, it really doesn't impact us. I'll take one half of the field and she'll take the other half. We lock them down, regardless of their positioning. If they are clumped up, well, they were screwed anyway, now it's just game over in round 1 as opposed to round 2. It's entirely 100% unfair.

The usual group we play with comments about how easy combats are. And our usual group? A Seeker|Warlord hybrid, an Assassin, and the least optimized Warlord ever. If those three don't inspire fear or awe, yeah, that's not surprising. Yet we still steamroll encounters because of the Wizard and Druid locking down the encounters from round 1. At level 10 we had a +19 and +15 to init's with a couple of tricks thrown in to ensure that we always went first. And the only time that it wasn't Wizard, Druid, everyone else was when I'd burn Strategist's Epiphany and let my allies go first for whatever reason.

Yes, we built our characters together, so we have great synergy. Yes, it's LFR so there are (usually) only 3 combats per module, so we just examine the battlefield and figure out which one of us will use dailies for the win. It's such a sickening combination. The funny part? People always talk about how controllers are the least important role. I disagree - if you have a good controller, combats are made easy. If you have two good controllers, combat is never a problem.

We do utilize some zone abuse. Ignoring dailies, I have an at-will to slide the enemy and an encounter power to do it on a miss. The Druid has an at-will slide, and an encounter power push. Forced movement isn't a problem for us, nor is setting up zones to abuse.

Sipex

2011-03-31, 11:27 AM

Wow, that's pretty inspiring and slightly scary.

I'm glad I don't DM for your group (no offense). That said, anyone who thinks controllers aren't vital are sorely mistaken. My party has won at least 75% of their fights because the wizard did his job and I sat there going "Okay, well I guess this enemy doesn't do anything this turn."

Meta

2011-03-31, 11:40 AM

LFR has a pretty tame reputation when it comes to combat encounters and optimized pcs but an impressive feat nonetheless

Surrealistik

2011-03-31, 12:20 PM

Yeah, anyone who asserts Controllers are the least important role clearly has not seen an optimized one in action. They are encounter crushers, especially Wizards.

Vknight

2011-03-31, 05:25 PM

Controllers I have stories about them and there amazing ability to make that pleasent field your in covered in razor wire and webbing

Jack_Banzai

2011-04-01, 02:04 AM

Visions of Avarice + Fountain of Flame + Stone Blood = WIN.

Gwic

2011-04-15, 11:01 AM

No mention of the original needlefang drake swarms?

Glad I'm not the only one. I caused a near-TPK with that monster. Had a 4 PC party: DB Fighter, Elf Rogue, Tiefling Wizard, Elf Ranger. They fought the Needlefang Drake Swarm and, IIRC, 2 guard drakes.

The problem wasn't the monster; it's that this was probably 6th or 7th encounter these players had ever fought. The wizard didn't figure out he needed to use area powers. The melee PC's figured they would just eat the aura. I gave the Rogue a custom, RP'd power to heal, but he felt his character wouldn't use that at this point for RP reasons.

Like most of DnD encounters, it's more about figuring out the puzzle than hacking and slashing. These player's were just too new to realize that. I think most of these killer monsters are just puzzles we didn't/couldn't solve.

Off topic, should we just go ahead and re-title this thread "The finer points of forced movement", since the vast majority of posts have nothing to do with "Hardest Monster you've ever faced?" and it's tough to find those posts in thick of this fight?

JysusCryst

2011-04-15, 02:41 PM

While I haven't been playing long enough to really have a hard monster fight of my own (I've only played about 3-4 sessions) I do have some stories that my DM has told me, and one that was supposed to be hard, but turned out being way too easy.

I'll start with the my DM's story first. He's not a member here, so I'll tell it.
He wasn't DM'ing at the time and the characters where at a pretty low level. Well, the DM for this game set up a tunnel maze the character had to get through to fight his big, bad, boss monster. The party ended up taking almost all the right turns in the maze on their way to the boss and the missed out on a lot of the dead-ends and traps/encounters that were in the maze. So they got to the boss in better than expected shape and that's when the typical DM's curse came in to play. The DM took all this time designing this bad*** boss, only to have every PC crit, and the boss crit-fail almost every roll, and he got taken out with relative ease. This is where the good part comes in. The PC's didn't think to make a map of the tunnels, so on their way back they ended up taking a wrong turn in the maze and running into three skeletons. A party that just defeated big-boss man without any difficulty at all, still mostly in good health and with dailies to spare, ran into three, just three, skeletons and got almost completely wiped out. From then on the DM threatened the party with skeletons and the PC ran from or destroyed any random pile of bones they happen to come across in the rest of their adventure.

TL;DR Three skeletons. That's it.

Now for my own experience, which didn't go the way I wanted it to.
This was my only second time playing D&D, and my buddy thought it would be nice to introduce me to DM'ing. He, however, decided to give me a hard time (along w/ the rest of the group) by playing evil or chaotic evil characters, "just to see how I'd handle it." Well, he was a Minotaur Barbarian who decided to go it alone into a cave infested with goblins. So I decided to punish him/teach him a lesson by going WAY over the XP budget and putting far to many goblins in the cave. I was thinking if he didn't run, he'd be beaten and would have to wait for rescue. Well, as soon as he walked in the cave and saw the goblins he used a power (can't remember the name or be bothered to look it up right now) which intimidated EVERY SINGLE GOBLIN that was close to him. The goblins, not wanting to fight this scary Minotaur, immediately turned around and helped him kill their comrades. Not only did the PC get a ton of XP from a fight he wasn't supposed to win, but he also got a small band of goblins that worshiped him, and he rescued all the beer that the goblins raided from the caravans, which is the only reason he wanted to kill the goblins in the first place.

TL;DR Minotaur vs. way to many goblins intimidated them into fighting for him instead of against him.

On the off-topic topic of this thread: Myself and my DM look at Web this way. Whether or not you walk to in it willingly, or are pushed into a giant, sticky web, you're going to get stuck. It fits the story. It just doesn't make sense that "Well, luckily I got pushed onto this web, so it isn't sticky like if I wanted to walk on it."

gurban

2011-04-16, 01:15 AM

The most difficult encounter I've run my players through was from the adventure in Dungeon Magazine, Bark at the Moon. First off, it is a wonderful adventure and I recommend leafing through it. One encounter features a Satyr, two wood woads, and some gremlins. First off, the Satyr has an at-will, burst 5, enemies only daze power. The gremlins have an aura 2, which now stack, enemies in the aura take -5 to skill checks and -2 to saves. Not only that, but when the gremlins are adjacent ot an enemy, they become invisible. The wood woads have a power called Nature's mystery, which also has action denial and save penalties tacked onto it. It was really brutal and frustrating. Once the satyr was down to about 10hp, he left the battlefield and everyone was pissed.

VeliciaL

2011-04-20, 02:15 AM

In my current 4e campaign, our DM is having trouble finding encounters that can really challenge us, especially since we currently have two leaders with strong healing. He got especially annoyed when we pretty much beat the snot out of a young green dragon after getting lucky initiative rolls.

So, he decided to up the ante a bit, having us go for a rematch against said green - who we'd let go alive - accompanied by a young red dragon. The ensuing battle was probably the closest we've come so far to a TPK.

Jukebox Hero

2011-04-24, 01:05 AM

A pack of Dire Wolves or Winter Wolves.

I have never DMed for or been in a group below level 6 that has been able to get past that encounter.

tynger1234

2011-04-29, 04:33 PM

3.5 illusions

These little buggers of spells caused almost 2 TPKs on the same party. Oddly enough everyone in that party lived through each fight somehow.

Fight 1
Against a big A** dragon. Turns out the dragon made an illusion of another dragon and he turned himself invisible. While being brutally masacred by the illusion, the party wizard figured out we were fighting thin air and revealed where the real dragon was. NO-ONE died!

Fight 2
The Aboleth with a programmed illusion. The Aboleth made the water in his dungeun appear to sink and a couple of people in the party who could'nt breath under water began to drown without relizing until someone (cant remember who) pointed out that there was an illusion.

I hated my DM for weeks after each of these events.

Eldest

2011-05-11, 05:04 PM

My brother tried his hand at homebrewing in 3.5, and made four armed skeletons with an attack per arm, with no attack penalty. He then put two of them at the bottom of a ladder. The (level 1) barbarian went down the ladder and promptly got hit three times with a scimitar and died. Then they managed to come up the ladder through a wall of fire, and kill the rest of us. My brother was completely mystified as to why we all died. He hasn't DMed since (though I'm giving him another chance soon).

Just_Ice

2011-05-20, 11:41 AM

I haven't fought that many difficult monsters by raw, but I have to say that cloakers, gnome rogues and wraiths are pretty irritating to fight under certain conditions.

Lostintransit

2011-05-22, 05:46 AM

Hi all,

Well the hardest fight I ever threw at my party was a lvl 40 solo controller and 12 lvl 30 solo soldier minions. But that was at the end of a year long campaign going from lvl 1 - lvl 30 when 4th ed first came out. It was an epic fight that lasted a good while with superpowers flying around and everything. The players ended up being the new gods of our 4th ed setting! :smallbiggrin:

Regards

Eldest

2011-05-22, 02:44 PM

Solo... minions...
A bit oxymoronic.

Lostintransit

2011-05-22, 07:00 PM

Solo... minions...
A bit oxymoronic.

Well it's easy actually. All you do is take a solo monster and then give it 1 hit point instead of its usual amount. Works fairly well as it gives a powerful threat that drops if hit. The monsters in question where fought at earlier stages of the campaign as proper solos, and were used as a scale to show how the players had grown (1st time was going to lvl 21 and just 1 of them, then at lvl 26 with 3 of them then the full 12 at lvl 30.) there stats stayed the same just the hit points changed.

Hope that helps???? :smallamused:

Regards

Dylaer

2011-05-22, 07:05 PM

Well, to my experience, it's the Adamantine Horror. Dear god, where do I start? Disintegrate, Disjunction and Implosion at will. This is CR 9. I'm fairly sure that the DM didn't look too hard at it, because otherwise it'd be easy to tell to not use it.

DMfromTheAbyss

2011-05-22, 09:22 PM

Balor (Monster Vault version)

Party was level 22.

It does 150 damage when bloodied.. Each party member had 130ish HP..

Scaped by by the skin of our teeth and loved every minute of it.

DragonBaneDM

2011-05-28, 05:35 PM

Gahhh. I knew I shoulda bought the Vault before I did the Arshardalon fight!!!

Seriously, the Balor was a huge joke compared to the Dragonborn Exarch they were still up against. 150 HP when bloodied? That's awesome!

Seerow

2011-05-29, 09:59 AM

If we're bringing homebrew monsters into this...

I once decided that regular minions were boring, and decided I wanted 2-step minions. ie, you hit them once, they become bloodied, hit them again after that, they die.

That actually worked pretty well....

What didn't work out so well was when I decided I wanted to take it a step further, and make a set of minion skeletons, that were magically linked. As long as 1 of the 4 lived, any others that are dropped stand up on their turn, and each skeleton granted some buff to the other 4 skeletons. Their general strategy would be to spread out quickly, and harry enemies while other monsters in the encounter did the heavy lifting.

Unfortunately, they turned out to be more than a minor nuisance since the party didn't figure out to focus fire them down all at once, in the end I started making them spend a full round action when standing back up rather than a move action, for fear of a TPK via minion.

Mindfreak

2011-05-29, 07:21 PM

This is my Story, it is full of woe, and horribleness:

I used to be in a D&D group comprised of 3 other people, a DM and 2 other players. I played a level 1 paladin, and me and my party played for over a year. Playing on Mondays, Fridays, and Saturdays. On Saturdays we would play though the night. Eventually after a year, our party were all level 21, and our DM decided to rain hell on us. So, he introduced a Rod of Chaos. Our party stumbled upon it, and our wizard fumbled an arcane check on discovering it's purpose, and we all thought it was a wand of some sort. So, we tried it out, and the result we got was that it started raining. It wouldn't be too bad, if it wasn't raining young white dragons. Our party was able to take down like 40 of them before an Elder White Dragon came down. We were all on At-Will powers by then, and our wizard still had one utility power left, the bad thing was that it was feather fall. You can probably guess what happened after that. It was a pretty sweet effect though, our group was able to level up after killing about 30 of the young white dragons, so our DM allowed us to go back to that point and have a final adult White dragon come down. My old DM was a pretty cool guy. The young white dragons thankfully took some good damage from the falling.

But nothing says hell until you got young white dragons falling from the sky like rain.

Drglenn

2011-05-29, 07:46 PM

Not one I've faced but the hardest monster I've used (based on deaths per encounter when using them) are Gelatinous cubes. In both the D&D 4e campaigns I've run I've had one encounter involving a gelatinous cube: the first encounter killed 3 party members, the second killed 2. So on average they have killed 2.5 PCs per encounter.

BoutsofInsanity

2011-06-16, 12:03 AM

Gotta go with the homebrew boss encounters our dm has made. (BTW brilliantyly I might add). These bad boys generally leave our four man party out cold with only one of us standing in the end. The boss guys have stages, go twice in a round and have some of the coolest mechanics Ive seen.

Umm, first guy had a zombie wall, tranformed into a flyer, then a bone golem for the last stage.

The second boss guy had a permanent darkness spell around him, teleported, and hit fairly hard. However, because we had a guy who joined us for a session playing an essential rogue, (Either play essentials or Core, not either because they dont mix well at all) he was brought down. Those guys were hard to fight. Personally I hate ghouls though, the whole, your stunned and roll a save sucks.

artstsym

2011-06-17, 05:39 PM

As a DM, I once made the mistake of throwing a (MM) phane at a 4 player party in relatively small confines. Worst fight ever (yet best learning experience). For those unfamiliar with the phane's particulars, let me sum it up for you with the power I should have read beforehand, Wizening Tempest: an at-will close burst 1 attack that stuns everyone it hits (save ends) with an aftereffect that dazes and weakens them (also save ends both).

It's an elite, so I threw it in with a couple other guys figuring this might make a fun warm up battle. It did not. I actually only realized halfway through the fight that it had insubstantial and the players still nearly died. I actually apologized for that fight afterwards. Don't know what they were thinking with that one.

I'm looking to one up it (in terms of difficulty, not annoyance) with my Ultra Super Kobold Squad Go! in my upcoming game. Fingers crossed.