Help with Latin.

[TheThan]

I’m writing up a character for a pathfinder game that features an analog of the split between the Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant church. The character in question is a paladin for the “catholic” side that will most likely suffer a crisis of faith and will most likely switch sides.

Now in order to really get into the character, I want his name to be significant. What I wish to do is use a Latin name since he’s a paladin and is most likely going to be an officer of the church. Instead of just picking a Latin name from a website (which i've already done actually); I want to know how names were constructed.

In other words how were names put together for everyday speech? What I’m asking is what would the name I’ve chosen sound like if he were to find himself in ancient Rome. If this character were to write his name out, how would it look? The only names I can think of are Mark Anthony, Brutis and Julius Cesar (and a handful of other emperors). And that honestly doesn’t help.

Anyway the names I’ve chosen are Adeodatus which according to the website I pulled it off of means “given by God”, which I figure is a good first name. and Baptista which means “the baptized one”, which is a fitting last name.

[Kneenibble]

My training is more with the language itself than with classical history, so a classicist may correct me if I get a fact backwards.

The names of Roman upper-class men were of three parts -- praenomen, nomen, and cognomen. The praenomen was what we would call a first or given name; the nomen is the "gentile" name, i.e. the name that denotes the person's gens or family; and the cognomen had a varying role. Sometimes it was like our middle names that we inherit from parents or grandparents, non-gentile names that get re-used through the generations; sometimes it was a nickname based on temperament or accomplishments; and some people had none.

The names that you cite are the anglicized versions.
Mark Anthony = Marcus Antonius (no cognomen)
Brutus = Marcus Junius Brutus
Julius Caesar = Gaius Julius Caesar

The cognomen is the most likely of the three to be an actual adjective or agent-noun, whereas the praenomen and nomen will probably be a word that is just a proper noun without any other meaning, or etymologically related to an improper noun but in a form that wouldn't appear. Often the praenomen was abbreviated to its initial in text. People are generally referred to by their cognomen or nomen in formal contexts (like Cicero), or the praenomen in intimate contexts (like Seneca's "mi Lucili").

Adeodatus looks funny to my eye -- classical Latin doesn't agglutinate like that. The phrase a deo datus does mean "given from God," but it is not Latinitas, correct Latin style, to put those words together in one.

Baptista actually means baptist (as in Ioannes Baptista), not baptized. I think the past participle would be baptizatus, but it's from a Greek root and is not a part of classical Latin; I have not studied church Latin.

Both your examples seem appropriate for a cognomen if you want to keep them but I would suggest changes due to the reasons above. I make two thematic suggestions for you as cognomens, rather than Adeodatus:
Pius = dutiful, particularly towards the gods or God; this word was frequently used of Aeneas in Virgil.
Divinus = divine; but with secondary meanings like admirable or divinely inspired.
This would be the nickname he has acquired through his character demonstrated over time, or given hopefully by his parents or tutors.

Baptista might actually work as a nomen, but what kind of gens, family, does he have? What are they all called? Remember, his nomen is like our surnames.

I do strongly suggest, though, since you have specified ancient Roman authenticity, that you give him a praenomen which is just a name that doesn't "mean" anything: the Latin equivalent of a John, George, Guy, Mike, Josh, Chris, Sebastian, Ronan, &c. Yes, those names do kind of mean something, but you know what I mean. People might abbreviate it when referring to him, and only his close friends would call him that in an informal setting.

I hope this is helpful.

[Asarlai]

The above post already includes everything useful I would have said, and then some, so I will only say this. There is no such thing as a soft C or a soft G in Latin. Caesar was pronounced Kaesar. Cicero was pronounced Kikero. In Latin, C = K, C ≠ S, G ≠ J. And before there was J, there was consonantal I.

[Lycan 01]

Invictus would be nifty. It means "unconquerable" or "invincible." :smallcool:

I'm too tired to dig through my Latin textbooks for awesome names. :smallsigh: I'll do that tomorrow, though, if you're still looking for suggestions...

[Incompleat]

The above post already includes everything useful I would have said, and then some, so I will only say this. There is no such thing as a soft C or a soft G in Latin. Caesar was pronounced Kaesar. Cicero was pronounced Kikero. In Latin, C = K, C ≠ S, G ≠ J. And before there was J, there was consonantal I.

I would say that it depends on the OP's intentions. If he is aiming for the classical period of Rome, then sure. But the talk of paladins and such gives me more of an "early middle-ages" vibe, to be honest; and in that case, you'd probably want to use the ecclesiastical pronunciation instead (soft c and g before i or e).

As for the names, it depends on your character's background. If he comes from an old Roman family which is really concerned about keeping the traditions, the previous rules are entirely correct; but otherwise, this list of names (http://www.gaminggeeks.org/Resources/KateMonk/England-Medieval/Latin.htm) might be of some use.

Finally, perhaps you might want to have a look at the Visigothic Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visigothic_Kingdom) and at its internal religious conflicts (see also the Ostrogoths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrogothic_Kingdom) to see how a much more tolerant kingdom dealt with with the same matters).

As per forum rules, I will not discuss these conflicts in any detail here; but I thought that it might be an useful reference for how religious contrasts were dealt with in the early medieval period...

[Asarlai]

I would say that it depends on the OP's intentions. If he is aiming for the classical period of Rome, then sure. But the talk of paladins and such gives me more of an "early middle-ages" vibe, to be honest; and in that case, you'd probably want to use the ecclesiastical pronunciation instead (soft c and g before i or e).

"What I’m asking is what would the name I’ve chosen sound like if he were to find himself in ancient Rome." -OP

[TheThan]

I havent’ even begun statting the character out yet so the name is easily changeable. What I have, I pulled it off of one of those baby name websites anyway. So I’m not terribly surprised if its not accurate in any way.

Anyway thanks for the info. I’m looking for more of any early Middle Ages feel for the character as that’s the vibe I get from the Dm. Anyway thanks for the information so far. Feel free to keep posting.

Invictus makes a great what did Kneebibble call it… cognomen… I’m liking Vincentius as a… praenomen… as for a … nomen I haven’t really thought of anything yet.

So far I have what? Vincent the invincible…. Naw sounds a bit corny.
Vincent the Unconquerable sounds a bit better.
What do you guys think?

[Lord Herman]

If you're looking for ideas for names, Gary Gygax' Extraordinary Book of Names (http://www.amazon.com/Gygaxs-Extraordinary-Gygaxian-Fantasy-Worlds/dp/1931275564/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1301300508&sr=8-1) is a useful resource. It has names from many cultures from around the world and from different times, with information on how they are used (such as the Roman praenomen/nomen/cognomen thing) and how they're pronounced. It doesn't go into the meaning of individual names (it just lists a large number of them for every language), but it's a good place to start.

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[Deth Muncher]

See, even if I knew anything about Latin except in passing, I'd have to decline to help you.
Puns! I has them!

[Eldan]

Do what I always do: get the appropriate Total War game and copy names from there.

[Asarlai]

See, even if I knew anything about Latin except in passing, I'd have to decline to help you.
Puns! I has them!

:sigh: ...

[Asta Kask]

Kate Monk on Roman Names. (http://www.gaminggeeks.org/Resources/KateMonk/Ancient-World/Rome/index.shtml)

[TheThan]

OHH that last link is great. It really helps me out.
I also like Eldan’s approach but I don’t have any total war games so I can’t use it.
I also like the Gary Gygax book I’d buy it if’n I had monies.
Anyway thanks for the info, I think I can handle it now.

[dehro]

another thought..most italian names are updated version of latin names (with a of course greek exceptions like my name, which means defender of people, of all things)..if you can get etymology for the first, you can easily get both the meaning and the latin version.

actually, half the common name in most western languages can be traced back to latin..so..just open an etymological dictionary/encyclopedia.

a couple of examples
paul, paolo, paulus..meaning tiny :D
Claude, Claudio, Claudius, meaning lame (as in cripple)..
and so on.

[Kneenibble]

As a tangent, I, Claudius is a timeless masterpiece of a miniseries.

[Claudius Maximus]

I'm pleased to see so many playgrounders so knowledgeable about these things. Might any of you folks have been in Austin this past weekend?

Also I am the best lame person. :smalltongue:

[TheThan]

I think I've settled on Lucius Gallus Invictus for a name. sounds good to me at least. and its very easy to pronounce in Ingrish, and since that's the only language i can speak. I think I'm good.

[Claudius Maximus]

The Invincible Chicken. I like it.

[Flame of Anor]

Hm...I had forgotten Gallus meant that. XD

[Katana_Geldar]

Better than Assinus Gallus. :smallwink:

[Flame of Anor]

Better than Assinus Gallus. :smallwink:

"Asinus", isn't it?

[Katana_Geldar]

Yes it is, I remember it from I, Claudius. Asinus Gallus.

[TheThan]

The Invincible Chicken. I like it.

well I didn't know it meant that. but I think i might actually keep it as an injoke. I only expect one to maybe notice it. heck he might make appearances as an NPC in games I run.

[dehro]

http://www.mamapop.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Family_Guy_Chicken_Fight-525x393.gif


springs to mind

[ForzaFiori]

The above post already includes everything useful I would have said, and then some, so I will only say this. There is no such thing as a soft C or a soft G in Latin. Caesar was pronounced Kaesar. Cicero was pronounced Kikero. In Latin, C = K, C ≠ S, G ≠ J. And before there was J, there was consonantal I.

the lack of a soft C and G were actually more of a accent than a hard and fast rule. While the technical pronounciation didn't have them (they also had no U, using V for both), depending on where you were in Italy, some people might put a soft C or G instead of a hard one, just like how today people don't always pronounce letters correctly (Just look at Castillians for instance).

I like Lucius Gallus by the way, even though it sounds like you might run away from a battle (I mean, it doesn't say HOW your invincible. Maybe he's just really fast.)

[TheThan]

the lack of a soft C and G were actually more of a accent than a hard and fast rule. While the technical pronounciation didn't have them (they also had no U, using V for both), depending on where you were in Italy, some people might put a soft C or G instead of a hard one, just like how today people don't always pronounce letters correctly (Just look at Castillians for instance).

I like Lucius Gallus by the way, even though it sounds like you might run away from a battle (I mean, it doesn't say HOW your invincible. Maybe he's just really fast.)

I've got like 7 uses of lay on hands. so clearly its a case of attrition, i can heal myself more than my enemies usually can. :smallbiggrin:

[mangosta71]

I have a gweat fwiend in Wome named Biggus Dickus.

[Asta Kask]

I think I've settled on Lucius Gallus Invictus for a name. sounds good to me at least. and its very easy to pronounce in Ingrish, and since that's the only language i can speak. I think I'm good.

Remember that you don't get to choose your own cognomen! These are nicknames, either given to you or one of your ancestors. If you are given it by your friends, then you are either a real coward (ironic nickname) or can live up to the term 'Invincible'... a difficult thing to do. If it was given to one of your ancestors then you have either a mighty warrior or a mighty coward among them.

I'd stick with Lucius Gallus and then take the name Invictus when you actually have some victories under your belt. An alternative would be "Victrix" which simply means "Victorious".

[Eldan]

Isn't Victrix the female form?

[Asheram]

I have a gweat fwiend in Wome named Biggus Dickus.

And don't forget Romanes eunt domus Romani ite domum

[Incompleat]

Isn't Victrix the female form?

I think so. The male form is "Victor", I think, but my Latin is horribly broken.

[Kneenibble]

Victrix is feminine, yes. Victor is the masculine.

They're agent nouns so they mean "conquerer, she/he who conquers" not victorious.

[Katana_Geldar]

But Victor is not a cognomen, and niether is Invictus, really.

Edit: Okay, looks likeVictor is a cognomen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_cognomina), but Invictus is not one.

And women did not have cognomen, they just had the praenomen and nomen.

[Kneenibble]

It's not an extant cognomen, but since there are other descriptive adjectives as extant cognomens the precedent is well set to use it.

[Eldan]

But Victor is not a cognomen, and niether is Invictus, really.
.

Well, it kinda is. For gods. Iuppiter Invictus, Sol Invictus, Mars Invictus...

[Katana_Geldar]

Yes, but remember Caesar, thou art but a man...

[Flame of Anor]

It's not an extant cognomen, but since there are other descriptive adjectives as extant cognomens the precedent is well set to use it.

And whoever said D&D had to be realistic?

Hello again, by the way, Kneenibble!

[Kneenibble]

God help us if any wish fulfillment fantasias ever had to be realistic...

Anyways, hello to you too fellow. It's been a while since we've tormented each other. :smalltongue:

[TheThan]

well I got to play my character yesterday, nobody seems to have noticed the in-joke name. guess i might have to mention it.